2023 Offseason Mini Camp, OTA’s, Training Camp Discussion Thread: Hallelujah, Josh Harris & Co. Era Edition

[Rocky21]

17 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I'd still like to see them play 1 game with a game plan against and opponent before concluding we need to "fix" the OL next season.

 

They might.  I'd just really like to see them suck first before determining they suck. Against another team.  In a real game.  With a gameplan.  

 

Good news.  You won’t have to wait too long before the sucking is confirmed.  Ron has screwed the pooch on his forming of the O line.

[DWinzit]

5 hours ago, Going Commando said:

Not surprised Cosmi was the one in the fight.  He's our most physical OL.  Wonder who started it between him and Mathis.

I'd imagine it was something that built over the day. Based on what I've read and Keim said, sounds like Cosmi knocked him down then Mathis got up and started it after being on his arse

[KDawg]

I think it’s too early to think the OL is DEFINITELY going to be a major problem. There still has to be the concession when evaluating that this team is supposed to have a top 3 defensive line in the NFL. And talent wise it should dominate even the best OL, or at least give them a lot of issues.

 

So let’s see how it looks against other teams.

 

I don’t think the signs point to it being in a good place, personally. But evaluations against yourself are much different than evals against another jersey.

[HigSkin]

 

[Skinsinparadise]

6 hours ago, Going Commando said:

 

He was my favorite OL in the class, maybe my favorite player period.  I wanted us to draft him more than anyone else, but he turned us down.  Canceling his top 30 visit was a pretty clear signal he didn't want to be here, and I'm not sure what we could have done differently after that.  It's a bad way to start off your career somewhere, and Ron doesn't work well with stubborn players.

 

 

He actually was my, yours @KDawg favorite tackle when we ranked our top 5 initially.  And that went against the grain of all the NFL mock drafters.  

 

Some vibe that he might be manic depressant based on the narratives.

 

I admit and said back then, we don't know about the interviews and these dudes personalities so I give leeway to these teams on that front.

 

But the fact that Callahan of all people, the same dude who built a good O line here and elsewhere took Dawand is interesting to me.  And yeah I do trust Callahan over Ron on decisions relating to the O line.  Ron inherited a good O line from Callahan and dismantled it.  Callahan left and built a great O line in Cleveland.

 

Years ago, Kirk has said he didn't want to be drafted here, yet we drafted him anyway.

 

I recall Dawand's reason for why he didn't want to come here which was he basically didn't think this team was serious about drafting them since they already had a RT.  In that that case its on them to convince him otherwise if they were into the player.  And plenty of evidence that they were into him considering all the previous time they spent with him.

 

I think there is a happy medium as to risk on a decision like this.  You don't take him early.  That's risky.  But agree late third is fine.  

Edited August 5, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[HigSkin]

 

😂😂

 

 

[Going Commando]

27 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

I'd imagine it was something that built over the day. Based on what I've read and Keim said, sounds like Cosmi knocked him down then Mathis got up and started it after being on his arse

 

That feels probable.  Cosmi likes to toe the line, and OLs like him are often magnets for conflict.  But you always want to have a guy like him on your line to bruise up defenders and set the tone.  You don't necessarily want like an Olin Kreutz level brawler who gets people hurt, including his own teammate, but someone who stops short of that line and is a genuine PITA to play against is good.

 

I also like that Mathis has some fire in him, from the sounds of it.  I like that he fought back.  And I like the intense competitive spirit and rivalry of the camp between the O and D.  It means the players have pride and swagger.  That they are forming their tribes/identities.  Hopefully it's a sign that they are both going to be competing like Hell this year.  You want a swaggering defense that talks a lot of ****, just have to keep it disciplined.  The practices against Baltimore are probably going to be a mess though.

[Skinsinparadise]

29 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I think it’s too early to think the OL is DEFINITELY going to be a major problem. There still has to be the concession when evaluating that this team is supposed to have a top 3 defensive line in the NFL. And talent wise it should dominate even the best OL, or at least give them a lot of issues.

 

So let’s see how it looks against other teams.

 

I don’t think the signs point to it being in a good place, personally. But evaluations against yourself are much different than evals against another jersey.

 

Rivera is saying evalaute it against the Browns.  Will see.   

 

My theory for now it the O line will hold up fine in give or take half the games next season like in game 1 and struggle in the other half of games that at least on paper they are facing top D lines. 

 

The think I hate the most about it is it doesn't make it easy for Howell.  For example Ridder is going to play with a top O line at least in theory. 

 

 

Edited August 5, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[DWinzit]

4 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

That feels probable.  Cosmi likes to toe the line, and OLs like him are often magnets for conflict.  But you always want to have a guy like him on your line to bruise up defenders and set the tone.  You don't necessarily want like an Olin Kreutz level brawler who gets people hurt, including his own teammate, but someone who stops short of that line and is a genuine PITA to play against is good.

 

I also like that Mathis has some fire in him, from the sounds of it.  I like that he fought back.  And I like the intense competitive spirit and rivalry of the camp between the O and D.  It means the players have pride and swagger.  That they are forming their tribes/identities.  Hopefully it's a sign that they are both going to be competing like Hell this year.  You want a swaggering defense that talks a lot of ****, just have to keep it disciplined.  The practices against Baltimore are probably going to be a mess though.

I love seeing some chipping as long as they shrug it off and don't hold animosity afterwards, it is healthy for the players. 

 

My gut is Cosmi becomes a strong starter and a leader of this OL. You got me on the Cosmi train a couple months before the draft and have been a big fan since. Fortunately the knock on him as mainly been the injury bug, but none have been major issues requiring long recovery times. Hoping stays clear of getting nicked up this year. 

[Chris 44]

51 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

I'd imagine it was something that built over the day. Based on what I've read and Keim said, sounds like Cosmi knocked him down then Mathis got up and started it after being on his arse

Cosmi still looked pissed during an interview after practice. Wish I had the clip to post.

[Koolblue13]

49 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I think it’s too early to think the OL is DEFINITELY going to be a major problem. There still has to be the concession when evaluating that this team is supposed to have a top 3 defensive line in the NFL. And talent wise it should dominate even the best OL, or at least give them a lot of issues.

 

So let’s see how it looks against other teams.

 

I don’t think the signs point to it being in a good place, personally. But evaluations against yourself are much different than evals against another jersey.

It's good that we open with the Cards and then it slowly gets harder. Broncos not bad, Bills pretty good, Eagles best. We'll know a lot this first month.

[Going Commando]

1 minute ago, DWinzit said:

I love seeing some chipping as long as they shrug it off and don't hold animosity afterwards, it is healthy for the players. 

 

My gut is Cosmi becomes a strong starter and a leader of this OL. You got me on the Cosmi train a couple months before the draft and have been a big fan since. Fortunately the knock on him as mainly been the injury bug, but none have been major issues requiring long recovery times. Hoping stays clear of getting nicked up this year. 

 

I guarantee these dudes can put the fighting and the frustration of a contentious practice behind them.  They are used to this.  Personally, whenever I've been in situations where I fought with friends or peers, after the blows is when you feel the most clear headed and respectful.  It's like getting sick and puking, you feel better after getting it out.  Football players are used to getting hit, they're not going to hold grudges over petty stuff.

 

Rivera is right that the camp fighting is a good sign.  It means the players are good enough to have expectations and pride.  They are completely normal, and if you don't have at least a handful of camp fights, then something is wrong.

 

I have a gut feeling that Cosmi is still a good bet too.  Ever since we drafted him, I felt like his natural place was either LG or RG, and that he's going to finally be a fish in water if he can play there for good.  Couldn't have him there while Scherff was still here, and I wanted him to play next to Scherff to get an education.  But now it's time to put him in his best place.  I think he could make a leap this year, and that he and Wylie can make a good right side.

 

Scherff was such a solid dude BTW.  He was a super underappreciated leader and teacher when he was here.  All the young Jacksonville linemen that suddenly look pretty good rave about Scherff, and how much he has helped them.  Vets on your OL are critical because it's a super workmanlike position where you really need to be shown the ropes, almost like an apprenticeship.  A guy like Dawand can dominate right out of the box just off of being vastly more talented than the guys he goes against, but regular players need a lot of time to learn and get stronger.  That's why I'm not sweating the long approach with Stromberg or Daniels, or the slow pace of development for Charles and Paul.  I'd be patient with them if I were in charge.  I think Paul is going to get into the start line up this year, and Stromberg next year.  Hopefully by that point, we will have enough snaps played from Cosmi and Wylie and Leno that they'll be able to buttress the line so that we're not always starting from scratch every year.

[DWinzit]

11 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

I guarantee these dudes can put the fighting and the frustration of a contentious practice behind them.  They are used to this.  Personally, whenever I've been in situations where I fought with friends or peers, after the blows is when you feel the most clear headed and respectful.  It's like getting sick and puking, you feel better after getting it out.  Football players are used to getting hit, they're not going to hold grudges over petty stuff.

 

Rivera is right that the camp fighting is a good sign.  It means the players are good enough to have expectations and pride.  They are completely normal, and if you don't have at least a handful of camp fights, then something is wrong.

 

I have a gut feeling that Cosmi is still a good bet too.  Ever since we drafted him, I felt like his natural place was either LG or RG, and that he's going to finally be a fish in water if he can play there for good.  Couldn't have him there while Scherff was still here, and I wanted him to play next to Scherff to get an education.  But now it's time to put him in his best place.  I think he could make a leap this year, and that he and Wylie can make a good right side.

 

Scherff was such a solid dude BTW.  He was a super underappreciated leader and teacher when he was here.  All the young Jacksonville linemen that suddenly look pretty good rave about Scherff, and how much he has helped them.  Vets on your OL are critical because it's a super workmanlike position where you really need to be shown the ropes, almost like an apprenticeship.  A guy like Dawand can dominate right out of the box just off of being vastly more talented than the guys he goes against, but regular players need a lot of time to learn and get stronger.  That's why I'm not sweating the long approach with Stromberg or Daniels, or the slow pace of development for Charles and Paul.  I'd be patient with them if I were in charge.  I think Paul is going to get into the start line up this year, and Stromberg next year.  Hopefully by that point, we will have enough snaps played from Cosmi and Wylie and Leno that they'll be able to buttress the line so that we're not always starting from scratch every year.

There such a need to have good vet OL mixed in with the young guys. Scherff was a great mentor to his neighbors at T and C. He was underappreciated and possibly seeing the OL coaches receiving those accolades. 

 

If we are indeed looking to next year with a middle of Cosmi, Strom, Paul, it would mean both Cosmi and Paul must get a lot of play time this year. Especially if we are also looking at a rookie 1st round T like it feels we will be. This is why I really see Cosmi stepping up as a leader. I will say from what I've read, Strom also has a lot of leader type qualities which I look forward to seeing play out late this season and next year.

[Koolblue13]

Crazy that just a few years ago we had one of the best OLine coaches, Trent, Chase and Scherff on this line and now we have nothing to show for it.

[Going Commando]

14 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Crazy that just a few years ago we had one of the best OLine coaches, Trent, Chase and Scherff on this line and now we have nothing to show for it.

 

Attrition happens.  Those teams also started guys like Rob Kelly, Niles Paul, Josh Doctson, Maurice Harris, Stacy McGee, Evander Hood, Will Compton, Mason Foster, etc.  We had a bunch of seasons where the only good player on the defense was Ryan Kerrigan.  This team is better.

[Riggo#44]

Can we please stop acting like Brandon Scherff was some kind of All Pro last year, making how much on that contract?

[Voice_of_Reason]

17 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Made the 7 hour drive back from Topsail Beach this morning and listened to 106.7 on Audacy the entire way.  From the junkies guests, to BMitch and Finlay and their guests - the dominating conversation was how bad the OL has been in camp.  
 

Nobody was partying about it or leveraging for an “I told you so”.  It was really sobering, and quite depressing actually.

Until you consider absolutely none of them, especially the junkies have absolutely no idea what in the hell they are looking at.  The only guy who has any remote amount of credibility on 106.7 on this topic would be BMitch, who, see above, also said if you're not game-planning, it's hard to look good.

 

Look, it could very well be the OL is an absolute abomination.  

 

They could also be ok. 

 

We're not going to know for a bit.

 

Listening to 106.7 is generally bad for your football IQ and your health in general.  

[oraphus]

41 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Crazy that just a few years ago we had one of the best OLine coaches, Trent, Chase and Scherff on this line and now we have nothing to show for it.

And the team still couldn’t win more than 8 games. At this point odds are we can stumble in to a good season by accident. We’re due

[NYSkins21]

49 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Crazy that just a few years ago we had one of the best OLine coaches, Trent, Chase and Scherff on this line and now we have nothing to show for it.

Sure we do. We’ve gotten remarkably better and deeper at the skill positions on both sides of the ball. Not to mention EB. Things change, players move.

 

Can’t fix everything at once.  The worst thing we could have done was force the pieces in. Obviously the right pieces haven’t been there. Appreciate the patience. Have faith brother. We’re getting there.

[Voice_of_Reason]

55 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

Can we please stop acting like Brandon Scherff was some kind of All Pro last year, making how much on that contract?

Is this PFF?

[Voice_of_Reason]

I really wish people would acknowledge 2 things on the OL as far as history goes.  
 

1. After Trent trashed the organization due to the medical staff, there is no way Dan was going to give him a big money contract, and Ron did the best he could with a situation created by Dan/Bruce to get anything for Trent.  That’s on Dan’s room bill of total screwups.  
 

2. Ron tried to keep Scherff.  To the point they offered him the richest OG contract in rye NFL two successive off seasons which he turned down, then tagged him and had him play on the franchise tag.  You can’t make a player accept a contract and they in no way nickel and dimed Scherff.  To me this also goes on the Dan room bill.  Scherff didn’t want to play his entire career here and I get why.  So he took money from Jax who had a promising young QB and a SB winning coach.  
 

I wanted them to do more in FA. But who knows how much they had the ability to do because of the sale.  
 

I still think they should have traded up to get an OT in the draft and been aggressive.  
 

But  as far as dismantling a good OL, that’s still more on Dan and circumstances outside of the football people’s control than anything else.  

[redskinss]

12 hours ago, DWinzit said:

At QB- I like Howell and Brisket. I still can't stand our QB3 situation, especially with such a questionable OL. 

 

I don't know, if we get down to the worst quarterback in the league behind the worst offensive line it could be kind of fun to watch. 

And at that point we'll be glad that we can't accidentally win a game with our defense.

[Riggo#44]

38 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Is this PFF?

 

Yes, I don't take their stuff as bible, but those are some shockingly low ratings, only slightly better than Andrew Norwell.

[dyst]

2 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

Crazy that just a few years ago we had one of the best OLine coaches, Trent, Chase and Scherff on this line and now we have nothing to show for it.

I remember fans looking at our ineptitude over the years and demanding we move on from names like Trent, Scherff, Kirk; etc. in hopes that a shake up could help, but little did we know, when this team moves on from someone - they just move on and don’t have a plan in place to replace them or even get value back in compensation. 
 

Even someone less skilled like Erick Flowers who may not have been valuable to the  other NFL teams at least had some value to us IMO. We just cut him and still can’t find anyone to be as good as him and he wasn’t even that great.

Edited August 5, 2023 by dyst

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I really wish people would acknowledge 2 things on the OL as far as history goes.  
 

1. After Trent trashed the organization due to the medical staff, there is no way Dan was going to give him a big money contract, and Ron did the best he could with a situation created by Dan/Bruce to get anything for Trent.  That’s on Dan’s room bill of total screwups.  

 

Don't know about 'people".  But speaking for myself, I've acknowleged it repeatedly even recently

 

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

2. Ron tried to keep Scherff.  To the point they offered him the richest OG contract in rye NFL two successive off seasons which he turned down, then tagged him and had him play on the franchise tag.  You can’t make a player accept a contract and they in no way nickel and dimed Scherff.  To me this also goes on the Dan room bill.  Scherff didn’t want to play his entire career here and I get why.  So he took money from Jax who had a promising young QB and a SB winning coach.  

 

100% with you on that, too.  I've acknowleged it repeatedly even recently

 

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

I wanted them to do more in FA. But who knows how much they had the ability to do because of the sale.  

 

I've debated this point previously including if I recall versus you when I referenced Dan's cash flow before the point became cool when all the articles started flooding about it.  

 

But, even with the current pot of money they spent, IMHO they could have done better.  And judging by Keim, they purposely held back more money to pounce on a Leno type signing(doesn't have to be O line but any spot).  As I've said, will see if they are vindicated on that point, its TBD.

 

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

But  as far as dismantling a good OL, that’s still more on Dan and circumstances outside of the football people’s control than anything else.  

 

I coudn't disagree more with that point.  Every decision has ripple effects.  What do you do with the picks?  What do you do with the cap space?  Ron was apparently willing to spend 16 million a year to keep Scherff but also apparently not willing to put that money back in the pot for the O line spot.   

 

I think @MartinC nailed it awhile ago saying it doesn't seem like Ron prioritizes O line like other spots.  I agree with that, his actions are telling.  And look maybe he will make me and others here look foolish by killing it this year and I hope he does.  But if he doesn't, you live by the sword you die by the sword.  

 

If we are going to complement Ron for making incremental moves to improve the secondary -- why doesn't it cut both ways about incremental moves on the O line?

 

We lose Trent Williams but didn't have to lose Morgan Moses.  That was a Ron decision.  In that draft they took S. Charlies, K. Ismael.   He passed over two borderline elite LTs in Darrisaw and A. Thomas.  It's decision after decision including some recent ones.  I can defend any one of them in a vacuum and I actually have done so but I've had enough of it.  One bad decision or two to defend is fine, i used to think this or that was isolated but no more, its clearly a pattern with him. 

 

I get that he has excuses for why not this tackle or that tackle on and on.  But the verdict is what it is.  It's 4 seasons for him to get that unit right.  He's not approached this spot with a sense of urgency, is willing to take major risks with it and IMO it likely will cost him his job as it should.

 

If all he did is take Darrisaw instead of Jamin Davis and kept Moses this would be a top 10 O line.  Decisions have consequences.  4 years is enough time, I can care less about the excuses for the decisions now.   It's too many bad decisions that have added up.

 

 

Edited August 5, 2023 by Skinsinparadise