The Official 2023 ES Free Agency Thread... available until Free Agency 2024 begins

[MartinC]

4 minutes ago, method man said:

I think folks really underestimate having a solid LT on a contract paying him $12m a year. Whether or not we draft a guy, you keep Leno around

 I agree . He might have to switch to RT. 
 

I can see a line of Rookie LT, FA LG, Larsen/Stromberg, Cosmi, Leno.

[CapsSkins]

4 minutes ago, method man said:

I think folks really underestimate having a solid LT on a contract paying him $12m a year. Whether or not we draft a guy, you keep Leno around

 

 His last year under contract is 2024 after which he'll be heading into his age 34 season.

[Voice_of_Reason]

59 minutes ago, The Consigliere said:

I think there was plenty of evidence that Pederson and Reid were really talented coaches, I don't think there was evidence that Ron was.

Eh ... maybe?  Reid had a reputation of not being able to win  the big game, and it all kindof unraveled on him in Philly at the end.  There were questions whether he could ever get over the hump.  And then he lost his first playoff game in KC, and those questions became louder.  

 

Pederson had a really short run with the Eagles, but they did win the SB.  Then he was gone 2 years later.  

 

But that's not really my point.  I wasn't defending the hiring of Ron or not.  I was simply saying, it's a somewhat mixed bag with coaches on their second stints, and I wouldn't shy away from a guy on a second team just for the reason they are going to a second team.  Hell, Bill Belichick was the coach of the Browns before the Patriots.  

 

I was just saying it doesn't matter how you get the guy as long as you get the right guy. I will still argue Ron was probably the right guy for Dan at that time.  He cleaned up a lot of the external mess and brought some degree of adult supervision to the organization that was totally vacant since Gibbs retired in 2007.  He wouldn't have been my first choice, but I liked the hire at the time, and I appreciate what he did keeping some semblance of normalcy through Dan's chaos.  

 

Now it's time for him to go and for somebody else to come in.  I'm just saying, it could be a first time guy or a repeat guy.  I don't really care as long as it turns out to be the right guy.  

1 hour ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

 

Yeah, that's my quandry as well, I feel like you gotta take the LT if they're there. It's such a massive need for us, and we haven't been in position to draft a premier LT in years because we always find ourselves in the middle of the pack. 

 

Hindsight is 20/20 but drafting Jamin Davis over Christian Darrisaw is probably this regime's biggest transgression. That or not trading ahead of Pittsburgh this year and taking Broderick Jones. Although apparently we would have traded up to take Forbes so at least we didn't do that.

I wanted them to trade up to get a tackle this year.  I didn't care who, just go up and get the best tackle you can.  Stick them at LT, flip Leno to RT, Wylie competes for RG with Charles and Paul, and Lucas is the backup swing tack, with Wylie as third string tackle.  

 

Then they picked a 160 lb CB.  

 

Then I cried and screamed they all should be fired. 

[MrJL]

2 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 

 His last year under contract is 2024 after which he'll be heading into his age 34 season.

take a look at the number of OL playing into their late 30s these days

[tomwvr]

23 hours ago, CommandB11 said:

Young will have 4 sacks...

over the next three seasons....

[Voice_of_Reason]

45 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I just looked at Brugler's big board he just came out with today.  8 out of the top 32 are tackles that's insane.  

Can we draft all 8?

[Skinsinparadise]

41 minutes ago, PlayAction said:

 

I remember when the Skins (pre Snyder) did a trade down for a future pick.  It kind of sucked but the next year there were two high picks in the first round for Chris Samuels and Lavar Arrington.  Those were the days. 

 

Yep that was what I referenced in another post.  Scot McCloughan got some mid round picks the next season on some trade downs but that's all I can recall during Dan's era

[tomwvr]

5 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Eh ... maybe?  Reid had a reputation of not being able to win  the big game, and it all kindof unraveled on him in Philly at the end.  There were questions whether he could ever get over the hump.  And then he lost his first playoff game in KC, and those questions became louder.  

 

Pederson had a really short run with the Eagles, but they did win the SB.  Then he was gone 2 years later.  

 

But that's not really my point.  I wasn't defending the hiring of Ron or not.  I was simply saying, it's a somewhat mixed bag with coaches on their second stints, and I wouldn't shy away from a guy on a second team just for the reason they are going to a second team.  Hell, Bill Belichick was the coach of the Browns before the Patriots.  

 

I was just saying it doesn't matter how you get the guy as long as you get the right guy. I will still argue Ron was probably the right guy for Dan at that time.  He cleaned up a lot of the external mess and brought some degree of adult supervision to the organization that was totally vacant since Gibbs retired in 2007.  He wouldn't have been my first choice, but I liked the hire at the time, and I appreciate what he did keeping some semblance of normalcy through Dan's chaos.  

 

Now it's time for him to go and for somebody else to come in.  I'm just saying, it could be a first time guy or a repeat guy.  I don't really care as long as it turns out to be the right guy.  

I wanted them to trade up to get a tackle this year.  I didn't care who, just go up and get the best tackle you can.  Stick them at LT, flip Leno to RT, Wylie competes for RG with Charles and Paul, and Lucas is the backup swing tack, with Wylie as third string tackle.  

 

Then they picked a 160 lb CB.  

 

Then I cried and screamed they all should be fired. 

Same here - I was so pissed off with the CB pick, and then they didn't teach him how to play in the NFL and they destroyed him...

[Voice_of_Reason]

6 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 I agree . He might have to switch to RT. 
 

I can see a line of Rookie LT, FA LG, Larsen/Stromberg, Cosmi, Leno.

I could see that.  But they would have to re-sign Larsen, he's a FA.  

 

They also need a backup swing tackle unless you roll with Wylie in that role.  Which, eh, for a backup swing tackle, I guess is ok?  I would prefer to cut Wylie and re-sign Lucas, though, if we're going with in-house candidates.

 

I think it's also possible we have rookie LT, FA LG, Stromboli, Cosmi, new RT (rookie or FA), and we release Leno for cap savings, or keep him as the swing backup.  

 

The only thing I think is sure of the 5 is Cosmi will be the starting RG.  Both because he doesn't suck and he's under contract.  

[CapsSkins]

3 minutes ago, MrJL said:

take a look at the number of OL playing into their late 30s these days

 

Trent is the only starting LT 34 or older:

[KDawg]

As much as I love me tackles… and I’d like one for the left side…

 

my second priority is IOL. Maybe one of Paul and Cosmi can start… but Cosmi is a decent lineman. Paul we don’t know. And Larsen is Larsen. He’s good. For sure. 
 

Maybe Stromberg takes the reins there, which I’m on board with… but a high end guard to pair with a new LT would be so nice. 
 

I’d also like a RT and 2 LBs. And a corner. And two tight ends. And a playmaker RB. And a safety (if Curl leaves which… please no).

 

I’m not asking for much.

[Rufus T Firefly]

Just now, CapsSkins said:

 

Trent is the only starting LT 34 or older:

In fairness, Brown was before he got hurt. 

 

Leno is okay, but that's all. If you ride him for another year, that's understandable. But if we have to extend him, it means we really haven't addressed the position properly. 

[zCommander]

23 hours ago, CommandB11 said:

I am just totally disappointed in the return for Young.

 

 

 

[CapsSkins]

Just now, Rufus T Firefly said:

In fairness, Brown was before he got hurt. 

 

Leno is okay, but that's all. If you ride him for another year, that's understandable. But if we have to extend him, it means we really haven't addressed the position properly. 

 

For sure. My point is that Leno is not a solution at LT beyond 2024, and re-signing him to be a backup would be fine but not a priority by any means.

[The Consigliere]

5 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

With Russini saying she gets the vibe they wanted to be aggressive in FA and Keim saying a few days ago about then being aggressive in the off season implying to give some hope for fans in the off season.

 

I like hearing all of that. I know for some aggressive means dumb. Vinny Cerraro. But aggressive clearly can mean smart. Howie Roseman.

 

Dumb is dumb and smart is smart. It has nothing to do with being conservative trumping aggressiveness.   We’ve done it conservative and boring since Bruce took over from Shanny.    There is nothing worse IMO than boring and stupid and building on some theoritical 10 year plan. 
 

I love the idea of having BOTH an aggressive draft and FA season. 
 

The off season should be fun and productive for a change 

Free Agency seems simple enough to me. Grade the cohorts available, what are your needs,  take a look at the draft classes, grade the position groups, balance your UFA moves with the draft, acknowledging the best way to utilize draft capital, and free agent capital. In other words dont waste first rounders on Linebackers or running backs, for instance. 

 

We'll see how they handle it, but with needs at corner, at LB, at edge, at OL, at TE, at RB, and QB, if we're smart, we should at least be able to use the cap space and draft capital intelligently. 

[zCommander]

Where is @Riggo-toni? I think the thread title needs an update.  

[Rufus T Firefly]

2 minutes ago, The Consigliere said:

Free Agency seems simple enough to me. Grade the cohorts available, what are your needs,  take a look at the draft classes, grade the position groups, balance your UFA moves with the draft, acknowledging the best way to utilize draft capital, and free agent capital. In other words dont waste first rounders on Linebackers or running backs, for instance. 

 

We'll see how they handle it, but with needs at corner, at LB, at edge, at OL, at TE, at RB, and QB, if we're smart, we should at least be able to use the cap space and draft capital intelligently. 

The priority should be the same in FA as it should be for most building teams- younger players. value signings. 

 

If we start chasing guys like Derrick Henry and Stephon Gilmore, then we may be on for some more rough years. 

[The Consigliere]

4 hours ago, woodpecker said:

Dang dude. I don’t follow the NBA as closely as some, but A quick check of the results tells me the 76ers are far from being a “colossal **** up”. Sorry, he hasn’t won multiple championships there yet, but in my opinion, he is doing things the right way. Doesn’t mean it automatically works. Let’s set that aside for a second… We had Snyder for crying out loud. It can’t get worse, so why not give this guy a chance? Forward thinking roster building and analytics may not be your thing, but a lot of us think it’s the way to go.

 

Theyve had 4 50 win seasons since '17-'18. As I mentioned yesterday, that's 4 more than the Boulez have had in the past 40+ years. They've also won 300 games, and lost less than 200 (around 170ish) during that era.

 

They did all that despite whiffing badly on two top overall picks in Fultz and Ben Simmons, and despite terrible decisions with Jimmy Butler and James Harden.

 

So? Have they screwed up a ton? yep. Have they also run a build well enough to consistently be a top 5 or 6 team league wide for more than half a decade? Yep, and it's worth noting all of their roster management issues related primarily to mental make up issues (ben simmons, headcase, james harden, head case quitter, jimmy butler, hard to get along with tough guy who has little patience or tolerance for mental make up headcases (see his quick exit from Minnesota and Chicago as well). 

 

So if there's any area of critique that's worth mentioning, it's that while their overall approach is and was sound and built a great, hyper competitive roster who should and would be the envy of any sane fan when compared to the Boulez or the Redskins/WFT/Commanders etc, but that one area of weakness has been a habitual desire to ignore mental make up issues with regards to trades and top picks, with Chase Young being trebuchet'd to SF, we should probably continue to consider due diligence on the mental make up of prospects and FA's, a priority. 

[Conn]

1 hour ago, The Consigliere said:

Patriot fans are gonna spend decades trying to convince people that Billichek is the coaching GOAT while most fans will say, "his teams were total ---- every season with any team, save the '08 patriots. Its a pretty convincing argument. Could Bellicheck do what Gibbs did with four different QB's (win 3 Super Bowls? Schreoder/Williams was '87). I think most would argue hell no.

 

Patriot fans will point to Noll and Bradshaw, Walsh and Montana, Johnson and Aikman, whomever and Favre, Shanny and Elway etc.

 

Its gonna be interesting how people try and figure out how to apportion the patriots accomplishments because they are so drastically outsized to any other HOF coach or QB's career, and yet, you have circumstantial proof, w/o Brady, it was a big nothing. Interesting. 

To me that Patriots era is the epitome of this meme (below), but backwards. Brady was always clutch but those early SB’s were heavily defensive-driven, ST’s-driven. Brilliant schematic and roster-building problem solving from Belichick in those years. He was never an amazing drafter, but coined the trading down approach before it was popular, to get more shots to make up for it. Made some absolutely incredible draft picks and trades amongst the muck. Then Brady grew into an absolute monster, the GOAT. Hard to separate their impact over the span of literal decades. 

 

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

44 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I guess that depends on who you define as the core.  

 

Offense:

Howell, McLaurin, Dotson, Cosmi.

 

Anybody else?  I wouldn't say anybody else on the OL has distinguished themselves to be core guys, Thomas maybe at TE, but he's old and entering the last year of his deal.  I wouldn't list him that way.  And I don't put any RB into a "core" category these days, though they do have good ones in Robinson and Rodriguez.  

 

Defense:

Payne and Allen. And I'll give you St. Juice.  

 

Who else who's under contract?  Fuller and Curl would be my "next 2 up" but they are both FAs.  Davis?  I mean, maybe because he's here.  None of the DEs.  Forbes has stunk. Quan? Butler?  Danny Johnson?  Barton is a FA and not that good.  Mayo and Hudson are both FAs. 

 

I don't think they have a very strong core that's under contract.  

 

Now, they COULD re-sign a few guys, and that could change.  But as of now, I think they are looking for probably 10 new starters next year, at a minimum.  Hell, they could have 2 new DEs, 2 new safeties, 2 new LBs and 2 new CBs on opening day.  That's 8 of 12 (I'm adding a spot because they play nickel and base, so accounting for either a LB or 3rd DB as a starter) starters could be people who are not on the team who could be starters.  Allen, Payne, Davis and St. Juice are the only 4 remaining who are sortof guaranteed starting spots next year on defense, assuming they are all back.  

 

Of the FA's who are core guys aside from Fuller, and Curl?

[The Consigliere]

4 hours ago, HigSkin said:

For sure...

 

 

Holy ----!. So not only were they going to pay through the nose for injury prone and ready to retire any second stafford, but they were also willing to blow up the future to save their own ----es with an idiotic trade for Wilson after he'd already more than shown he was in rapid decline during the '21 season?

Good God these guys are idiots. 

[Skinsinparadise]

26 minutes ago, KDawg said:

As much as I love me tackles… and I’d like one for the left side…

 

my second priority is IOL. Maybe one of Paul and Cosmi can start… but Cosmi is a decent lineman. Paul we don’t know. And Larsen is Larsen. He’s good. For sure. 
 

Maybe Stromberg takes the reins there, which I’m on board with… but a high end guard to pair with a new LT would be so nice. 
 

I’d also like a RT and 2 LBs. And a corner. And two tight ends. And a playmaker RB. And a safety (if Curl leaves which… please no).

 

I’m not asking for much.

 

I think they need two tackles and a guard.

 

Stromberg at center.  And Cosmi at RG.

 

 

[The Consigliere]

4 hours ago, Going Commando said:

 

I'm pissed and completely disillusioned that the exact scenarios I feared with Harris are already playing out just months into his ownership.  I've had a bad feeling about him ever since it leaked that it was probably him who tried to hire Sean Payton before he even bought the damn team.  And I am feeling genuinely hopeless because I think we went from the frying pan to the fire with another bad, meddlesome owner who doesn't know anything.  I think the big difference with this group is that they're just a lot more PR savvy and capable of selling their decisions to the media and their fan bases.  I didn't even like Ron Rivera or his regime, and I still can't stand to see the way this has played out.  The way this team operates still feels so dysfunctional.

 

I don't know if I can get on board with this new ownership.  I just don't believe in them or expect them to get the difficult decisions they have to make right.  I don't want to see the football equivalent of Daryl Morey GMing this team, and that is exactly what I think is going to happen.  I don't trust Harris to stay out of the way either, and I don't want to buy his NFL version of Trust the Process for even a second.  But the only thing I can do is wait and see who he hires and hope that every instinct I have about him is wrong.  It feels like **** and I'm tired of being on this hamster wheel and helplessly watching the same patterns of failure playing out over and over again.

 

Well, we'll see. I'm not about to say he's a genius. We don't really know. Have any of his teams won anything? I dont think so. But his build with Philly was reasonably successful, just didn't reach the ultimate prize and not for lack of trying. Additionally they did just in the past decade with that failed rebuild infinitely more than the Wiz/Boulez have done in 40 years of incompetent rebuilds. 

 

So I tend to think you're a bit harsh on that when you consider the league. A lot of what happened with the sixers was bad luck as much as anything. Fultz had some issues and was a risk, they went with it, it didnt pay off. I don't recall anyone anywhere suggesting Ben Simmons was basically gonna be the Ryan Leaf of Basketball. As for Harden, that was stupidity of the highest order and obvious stupidity. Anyone with sense could see that coming a mile away, he simply is a cancer and a quitter you cannot trade for that guy and while I respected Morey's desire to hold Simmons till he got something resembling 80 cents on the dollar, there were better deals to be made and his connection to Harden going back a decade did him in there. Butler seems like a simple enough screw up, to make Butler work, you had to have the right kind of talent around Butler, if you couldn't build it, you needed to trade him for tangible team building assets which they didn't really do. Too bad there. Miami has a habit of always swindling teams.

 

We'll see. You could be right, I have no idea, it's not so much that most of us think he's a genius, most of us have no idea, but we know that we had the worst owner in American Sports not named Donald Sterling for nearly 25 years, and even if all we get is average, its still miles better, and if the worst he can do is build a team that approaches a .650 winning percentage year in and year out, and a chance at contention, that's infinitely better than anything we've had in 30 years. 

[The Consigliere]

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

Any time this kind of thing has come up with Caps, Boulez, and Redskins fans the last few decades I've always said the same thing: I don't give a ---- what season ticket holders think. If they have to suffer a few years of misery, but the team will actually do a proper rebuild right, and not a short cut, all it will take is winning to make them forget ALL ABOUT IT. How many Boulez fans would trade miserable .400 seasons, giant clumps of them, for hope right here, right now? How many of them wished the org had listened to me when I screamed bloody murder to trade Beal nonstop every offseason and deadline for nearly half a decade after Wall fell coming out of the shower and destroyed his career and just traded him at his high point in value and started the rebuild early? How many caps fans will wish they had started the rebuild in '20, '21, '22 etc when I had said for years they needed to reboot only to realize in '24-'25 that we have a bottom 10 organizational farm, and Ovy's retiring? How many redskins fans would have preferred the team do the rebuild properly all those innumerable last 30 years when they did short cuts instead in? 

 

Orgs should ignore the season ticket holders entirely. Their obligation is to do whats right to build a winning franchise that can contend on the regular, posion pill or not in the short term. Winning brings fan. Playing this "short cut/halvies" approach to rebuild alienates fans and builds empty arena's and stadiums over time. Faith comes from results, not wishy washy bull---- short cuts. 

[Est.1974]

I think the plan should be fairly obvious in free agency and the draft. Target the best players available. We are short on talent right across the board, we need a strong offseason of simply adding the best talent we can get through the door. 
 

Pretty much every position is a position of need. Just go get as many BPA as possible in 2024.