Taylor Heinicke Extension?

[CjSuAvE22]

If he beats the Vikings I’ll think about it

[smithmal]

15 hours ago, London Kev said:

 

If you compare the first four games with the second four games, they've improved in sacks allowed, QB hits allowed, tackles for loss allowed and rush yards. I'd say that was them getting better.

 

This table doesn't tell the whole story.  True that there are less physcial touches on the QB, but what I was talking about was actual QB pressures (i.e. disruptions to the QB altering their base/timing/causing them scramble, etc). 

 

Usually pressures lead to more hits/sacks, but not in TH's case (in comparison to CW) due to:

1. His understanding of the offense (i.e. knows where to go with the ball when he sees a specific defensive alignment)

2. Ability to get the ball out faster

3. Better pocket awareness

4. More mobile/elusive

 

There was tremendous amount of pressure all game on TH and the Colts game was the most pressure the O-Line has allowed in a WC game all season.  This was noted either by Galdi or Hoffman on their pods (can't remember which).  

 

People on this thread talk a lot of smack about TH's arm strength (or lack thereof) but that is usually b/c when he is throwing he is under duress and does not have a good base (i.e. throwing off his back foot and/or scrambling).  He did spend a lot of time in the off-season working on improving his base/mechanics so he can get his hips/core into his throws to increase his accuracy/zip/distance, but if you are always on the move and/or off-balance due to pocket pressure you can never use your base/core during your throwing motion.  He does have an issue with his mechanics breaking down under pressure which causes his passes to become inaccurate (usually thrown too high) and lofty (without zip).  This is the same reason why CW's passes are so inaccurate.  CW had very little zero time to set/be comfortable in the pocket and Turner didn't help him with this as much as he could of.  The difference is that TH has better pocket awareness/mobility which gets him out of a lot of pocket pressure issues that CW can't.  

 

My favorite skin's longball QB was Rypien.  He was fantastic at the longball but he had the following things going for him:

1. Great coaches

2. Great WR group

3. Incredible O-line

 

That dude would go games without getting hit which allowed him to be very comfortable in the pocket and throw with great base and mechanics.  You'll note when he left the Skins (I think he went to the Browns?) he had nowhere near as good of an O-line and his ability to be proficient at the longball was significantly affected. 

 

Rivera really unvalued the importance of the O-line this year.  I think he got a little over-confident in his coaching staff and felt that they could plug anybody in the line to replace Scherff and Flowers with which has cost him big time this year in terms of mishandling the CW acquisition.  Unfortunately that acquisition is probably going to lead to Rivera's downfall as the Coach/President of this team (not that he had a lot of options last spring).  Interestingly Rivera constantly preached the mindset that all he needed to do was build a good team for the first three years and then plug in a decent QB to get the team to become truly competitive.  That might have worked but he didn't follow this plan when it came improving/developing the O-line.         

[smithmal]

2 hours ago, Est.1974 said:

Howell may as well start in 2023 if it’s a full on transition year. 
 

To be honest, he may as well start this Sunday onwards.

 

Totally agree with this. 

 

WC should find out what they've got in Howell now and (as bad as this sounds) sink the season and/or trade certain assets to acquire draft capital.  This is definitley not going to happen now due to the potential ownership change as Rivera is either going to play for his job here and/or his next gig somewhere else (that is if he doesn't decide to retire).  Unfortunately we will be stuck again with a mediocre record disallowing us to get out of the vicious mediocre QB merry-go-round we've been dealing with for the past 20 years. 

 

They should have never gotten rid of Cousins and I'm willing to bet this weekend will be a reminder of that.

[London Kev]

8 hours ago, smithmal said:

This table doesn't tell the whole story.  True that there are less physcial touches on the QB, but what I was talking about was actual QB pressures (i.e. disruptions to the QB altering their base/timing/causing them scramble, etc).      

 

I agree that the table doesn't tell the whole story, but it wasn't meant to.

 

I originally said that the O-line had improved in recent weeks and you replied saying that you didn't agree with my statement. I was just providing data in four areas where they had actually improved in recent weeks.

 

I broadly agree with the rest of your post, except for the excuses you gave for Heinicke's lack of velocity. He wasn't being pressured on every single pass play, and yet he still had a noodle-arm on every single pass play, I don't think you can blame it solely on being pressured. He's just got a noodle-arm, whether he's being pressured or not.

[NeverSurrender]

7 minutes ago, London Kev said:

 

 

I broadly agree with the rest of your post, except for the excuses you gave for Heinicke's lack of velocity. He wasn't being pressured on every single pass play, and yet he still had a noodle-arm on every single pass play, I don't think you can blame it solely on being pressured. He's just got a noodle-arm, whether he's being pressured or not.

Its this type of garbage that I have just about had enough of here.  He didn't make excuses, he made observations.  You think TH has a noodle arm on every play?  Last year against Dallas he threw a 50 yard TD to Cam Sims while rolling to his left.  Just stop being ridiculous.

[London Kev]

7 minutes ago, NeverSurrender said:

Its this type of garbage that I have just about had enough of here.  He didn't make excuses, he made observations.  You think TH has a noodle arm on every play?  Last year against Dallas he threw a 50 yard TD to Cam Sims while rolling to his left.  Just stop being ridiculous.

 

Yes, I remember the throw and I praised him for it at the time. What you seem to not understand (even though I mentioned it in my post) is that noodle-armed refers more to velocity than distance thrown.

 

I made a post last year (with data) about how Heinicke's throws get to the receiver significantly later than a QB with a strong arm. That difference gives the DBs more time to read and react. Also, 50 yards is probably about the limit of his range while stronger armed QBs can sling it 65 yards.

 

Smithmal did make excuses, he said that the reason Heinicke lacks arm strength was "b/c when he is throwing he is under duress and does not have a good base (i.e. throwing off his back foot and/or scrambling)." I pointed out that he wasn't under duress on every play so this couldn't be the only reason.

 

If TH does indeed have a noodle arm then yes, obviously he has a noodle arm on every play, it's logic 101, so how about you tone down the "garbage" and "ridiculous" comments.

 

For what it's worth, I also previously said that I would extend TH's contract for two years, so I like him as a back-up even though he has his limitations.

 

.

[KDawg]

For the life of me I can’t figure out why we are constantly arguing about Heinicke. He is what he is. The Hive said tries really hard to convince us he’s a good quarterback yet even very few of them think he is the future starter.

 

The anti-hivers are (mostly) on board that he’s at least a competent backup that can win some games, yet they are hell bent on making it clear Heinicke isn’t the answer.

 

So everyone seems to agree he isn’t the answer… but there is still a fight. I think it’s more about not liking the other side than it is Heinicke at this point. 
 

This is a psychology experiment.

[tmandoug1]

6 minutes ago, KDawg said:

For the life of me I can’t figure out why we are constantly arguing about Heinicke. He is what he is. The Hive said tries really hard to convince us he’s a good quarterback yet even very few of them think he is the future starter.

 

The anti-hivers are (mostly) on board that he’s at least a competent backup that can win some games, yet they are hell bent on making it clear Heinicke isn’t the answer.

 

So everyone seems to agree he isn’t the answer… but there is still a fight. I think it’s more about not liking the other side than it is Heinicke at this point. 
 

This is a psychology 

Yeah...humans are weird that way. Once sides get rolling they will fight to the death to defend their position whether right or wrong. Isn't it strange how we do that over silly ****. For thousands of years we have done it. At least we are just talking about a backup QB for a ****ty franchise ruined by an egotistical owner and soft ass people that don't like its history.  Im still here.....HTTR/T/C/Prime. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

15 hours ago, NeverSurrender said:

Its this type of garbage that I have just about had enough of here.  He didn't make excuses, he made observations.  You think TH has a noodle arm on every play?  Last year against Dallas he threw a 50 yard TD to Cam Sims while rolling to his left.  Just stop being ridiculous.

He has a noodle arm on 99.9% of plays???

[zCommander]

20 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

He has a noodle arm on 99.9% of plays???

 

Yup....and still completing 67.4% of his passes.

[Professor_Nutter_Butter]

On 11/4/2022 at 6:45 AM, CjSuAvE22 said:

If he beats the Vikings I’ll think about it

I'm glad you'll think about it.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

12 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

Yup....and still completing 67.4% of his passes.

It was a joke, hoss.

 

You know, it is possible, to let a Heinicke slight/joke go without responding right?

 

The pro-bono counsel you provide for him is something I hope he pays you for should he lock up another decent NFL contract.

[Jumbo]

It's not a psychology experiment, but it's an inevitable manifestation of good ole "male ego" in our cultural/football fan/msg board environment. Nothing obstructs objective analytical reasoning more than emotional thinking/reactivity and the defensive ego is the grand marshall of dumb-argument parades. 

 

One of my fave es examples isn't from our list of classic qb centric conflicts over the years, it's the great "making betts the permanent starter over portis" hoedown.

 

All that said, the sides taken on th are not "the same" in terms of egregious demonstrations of emo-driven cognition and over the top posting.

 

 

Hive-rs are just what we always thought they were. We can crown them. 😈😁

 

To be more serious though, imv, there have been only a few uber boosters who have been all that bad, but it's still a bigger noisier more dumb-posting group than the more critical contingent.

 

But to me th's current streak merits real consideration in his ongoing eval, and I am generally more critical of his actual talent level and long term/overall significance than not. 

 

At the same time, I like seeing es'ers finding something about the team to enjoy in almost any case. 🥳

 

[SpacePenguin]

I'd be a lot more open to Heinicke's "potential" as a starter if it wasn't for the Dallas game last year. Sure, he has he ups and downs and his arm strength requires him to be pinpoint accurate (which he isn't) to be consistently successful in running an NFL offense, but he does make some plays when it counts.

 

That first Dallas game made it abundantly clear to me that for him to have success, he would have to have skill position talent that was far and away better than the the defense they were matched up with. The amount of time that DBs have to break when the ball is thrown is just too great, receivers really need to get an unreasonable amount of separation for it to work.

 

I don't hold any of the Covid ruined games against him, but holy hell....that one game was enough to open my eyes for good. I'm amazed it wasn't enough for everyone, but oh well. He is a gutsy, moxie filled, little underdog couch sleeper that some people can't help but love. I get it, kinda.

 

As it stands now, I'm kinda checked out on Commie football, other than to chuckle at messages on here. The Heinicke supporters are a good source of bemusement. I think all the other backup QB cults over the years have transformed the phenomena into something that I hold some degree of nostalgia for.

 

 

Edited November 5, 2022 by SpacePenguin

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

@SpacePenguin How about one of the worst games ever played?  That sad win that felt like a loss to the Giants to end the season.

 

Contrary to popular belief, at one point, I was trying to convince myself that maybe Heineke could overcome all of his physical limitations and be the guy for us.  After the comeback against the Falcons, during peak Heinicke mania - I was a little drunk on him myself.

 

But yeah, after that, even during the win streak I’d seen enough to know this was fools gold.  He really is a cool player, I mean - he’s led some cool comebacks that just seem so unlikely, but he’s done it multiple times.

 

I maintain that I don’t dislike him at all, it’s the Hive that annoys me.  

[SpacePenguin]

2 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

@SpacePenguin How about one of the worst games ever played?  That sad win that felt like a loss to the Giants to end the season.

 

 

 

I purged that **** from my mind. Liquor helped.

[88Comrade2000]

Why is this even a thread.  The guy has no long term future here. Maybe he gets one year deal.

[Jumbo]

17 hours ago, NeverSurrender said:

Its this type of garbage that I have just about had enough of here.  He didn't make excuses, he made observations.  You think TH has a noodle arm on every play?  Last year against Dallas he threw a 50 yard TD to Cam Sims while rolling to his left.  Just stop being ridiculous.

 

Actually I read you as the one who is sometimes, like now, actually ridiculous on the topic (just a couple posts that have stood out to me recently) esp. compared to the poster you're castigating. He presents his argument better than your direct attack mode counter.

 

You leave yourself open to a rule 5 violation for calling a reasonable poster/post ridiculous and garbage, particularly since that would apply more to your response than his post. Fwiw. 🙂

 

[moondog]

Is there literally ANY debate that we should re-sign him? Dude is 7-3 in his last 10. He’s a great backup, especially if we keep this regime. Up his guarantees a bit from the last contract and call it good. 
 

I suppose if you wanna go ultra cheap with a rookie and Howell at the position but I think I’d rather have Heinicke for a lot of reasons. 

[88Comrade2000]

8 minutes ago, moondog said:

Is there literally ANY debate that we should re-sign him? Dude is 7-3 in his last 10. He’s a great backup, especially if we keep this regime. Up his guarantees a bit from the last contract and call it good. 
 

I suppose if you wanna go ultra cheap with a rookie and Howell at the position but I think I’d rather have Heinicke for a lot of reasons. 

No.

 

The team is up for sale. If by some miracle the whole sale process can be completed and approved by the end of the year; Ron and his Gm crew are out.

Taylor not getting resigned.

 

If Ron decides to bail and we have a stopgap coach for a year; Taylor is out.

 

Taylor’s only chance of being resigned is if Ron is the 2023 coach. Taylor likely would only get a one year extension.

 

Given the impending ownership change; no player’s long term future is secure.

[zCommander]

2 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

It was a joke, hoss.

 

You know, it is possible, to let a Heinicke slight/joke go without responding right?

 

The pro-bono counsel you provide for him is something I hope he pays you for should he lock up another decent NFL contract.

 

When I do a joke I put j/k at the end so that it doesn't leave to any misinterpretations. You left it as a question mark as if you don't know the answer and asking for an answer. Or you were just slamming TH. I couldn't tell. So I still agreed with you he doesn't have a very strong arm but has completed 67% of the passes this year.

 

It wouldn't hurt my feelings if he isn't here next year. What will hurt my feelings is if our team isn't better than this year and we still don't have a franchise QB.

 

But, they can still bring him back as the back up and that would be fine as well.

 

I am sure we will have more to say during the game and after. Until then 

 

[88Comrade2000]

1 minute ago, zCommander said:

 

When I do a joke I put j/k at the end so that it doesn't leave to any misinterpretations. You left it as a question mark as if you don't know the answer and asking for an answer. Or you were just slamming TH. I couldn't tell. So I still agreed with you he doesn't have a very strong arm but has completed 67% of the passes this year.

 

It wouldn't hurt my feelings if he isn't here next year. What will hurt my feelings is if our team isn't better than this year and we still don't have a franchise QB.

 

But, they can still bring him back as the back up and that would be fine as well.

 

I am sure we will have more to say during the game and after. Until then 

 

Considering the fact the team is up for sale; I wouldn’t expect anything for 2023 unless we can have a new owner take over in January.

[zCommander]

5 minutes ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

Considering the fact the team is up for sale; I wouldn’t expect anything for 2023 unless we can have a new owner take over in January.

 

I guess it will depend on if they keep Ron and company. 

 

Edited November 5, 2022 by zCommander

[Jumbo]

It's a fluid dynamic with th's worth. Within each game he's played as starter there are individual yay moments and individual boo moments of significance in each category. This is true of either wins or losses.

 

And once we get to credit or blame for either an actual w or an l, the rest of the team/staff performance becomes an inseparable and generally "muddying" factor that is almost endlessly debatable even when objective analysis is dominant in arguments (which is not common).  

 

His current streak counts a lot imo in the moment. Prior to it he was a 50-50 backup playing as a starter. That's not typically the kind of record to justify  intense boosterism.

 

Guys like cooper rush get a milder level of enthusiasm for going 4 and 2.

 

If guys generally respected as upper tier back ups like bridgewater or geno smith,bor a former starter that has/is descending to backup status like Winston or Mayfield or trubisky, go 8-8 I doubt you'd see the lionization of his performance here as we're seeing over th.

 

But now we have a change in that w/l  equation with the current 3 w streak and were that to continue, more of a re-evaluation among the more critical posters would be appropriate.

 

And if he were to have more negative plays and losses as the season concludes, that would obviously support the skeptics. 

 

So while the overall status of th's value even as a backup is still open imo, and his up/down nature is not only visible in each game but was also across an entire season last year, I would say he's still the beneficiary of more unmerited boosterism than not from actual "hive-rs." If he has a solid helping of individual excellence or even consistent competence the rest of the season it should count in his favor of course.

 

Just for my personal take, I think th has already shown what th is, including his resume' prior to landing here, and i'd rather see Howell or even wentz (just to definitively eliminate him or not) play.

 

But I am always wide open to new evidence and reevaluation in the matter.

[skinny21]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

@SpacePenguin How about one of the worst games ever played?  That sad win that felt like a loss to the Giants to end the season.

 

Contrary to popular belief, at one point, I was trying to convince myself that maybe Heineke could overcome all of his physical limitations and be the guy for us.  After the comeback against the Falcons, during peak Heinicke mania - I was a little drunk on him myself.

 

But yeah, after that, even during the win streak I’d seen enough to know this was fools gold.  He really is a cool player, I mean - he’s led some cool comebacks that just seem so unlikely, but he’s done it multiple times.

 

I maintain that I don’t dislike him at all, it’s the Hive that annoys me.  

Yeah, you and I aren’t far apart.  I recall talking to mistertim about the 1st Dallas game providing an answer as to whether he could be a longer term qb for us.  Not some elite stud or anything, but a solid starting qb (if the offense was operated as it was during the win streak) until we got someone better.  Sort of an Alex Smith type.  It fell apart of course, and I moved on from that hope/thinking.

 

So now I mostly roll my eyes at the few uber-optimistic/positive (occasionally posting my disagreements with them), but the bulk of my posting about TH is defending him from the more over-the-top criticism.  Not because I think he’s anything more than he is - a decent to good backup, maybe low end starter (there are some poor starters every year) - but because it feels unfair to him IMO.  I’m not arguing with those that don’t see a point in playing him, or that think he’s not very good.  And as I’ve said many times, Howell is the one I really want to see starting… I’m certainly not attached to Heinicke.

Now I will say, I’ve been (and still am) in wait-and-see mode about whether the mostly horrible end to his 2021 campaign was about defenses having figured him out.  If that is the case, he doesn’t really belong in the NFL, even as a backup.  I don’t think we have conclusive evidence yet either way.

 

 

One last thing - how has the “anti-hive” group not been labeled the “buzzkillers”?  Lol.