Game Day Thread - Tampa Tom vs The Legend of Taylor Heinicke: The Rematch

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Just now, kingdaddy said:

Yes I do, and no I'm not banking on Turner doing that with TH. I watch Jaylen Hurts constantly using his legs and it opens the door to everything he does while putting major pressure on defenses. TH seems to like playing while on the move and it's certainly when he's most dangerous. I loved the play action roll outs, make the defense chase him for 4 qtrs. and wear them down. 

I don't see how you can even question this. In fact, if TH hadn't given himself up at the goal line of the Packers game I think we have a great chance to win that game and that was a play where he was on the move. 

Back in preseason, Willie McGinnist, former Patriots LB, raved about TH and his scrambling/running ability. He called TH a "nightmare" because of all the things a defense has to worry about when playing him. I'd go as far as to say that asking TH to sit in the pocket and pick defenses apart is one of the things he looks least comfortable doing. 

My point is that defensive coordinators watch tape.  They know what a QB does well and game plan accordingly.  Whatever was there in the last successful outing, they will do their best to take it away.  

 

If everything was so simple as to Taylor is this monster scrambler that all you have to do is roll him out and move the pocket and he's going to beat teams like Tampa, we'd already be doing it every week.  Fans tend to try and simplify a game that is by no means simple.

 

You know who is among the best play action, move the pocket, type QB in the league?  Kirk Cousins.  Why don't his OC's just run those plays all day?  Because defenses get paid too and they know that's his bread and butter.

 

 

[kingdaddy]

1 minute ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

My point is that defensive coordinators watch tape.  They know what a QB does well and game plan accordingly.  Whatever was there in the last successful outing, they will do their best to take it away.  

 

If everything was so simple as to Taylor is this monster scrambler that all you have to do is roll him out and move the pocket and he's going to beat teams like Tampa, we'd already be doing it every week.  Fans tend to try and simplify a game that is by no means simple.

 

You know who is among the best play action, move the pocket, type QB in the league?  Kirk Cousins.  Why don't his OC's just run those plays all day?  Because defenses get paid too and they know that's his bread and butter.

 

 

I get your point but I'm not talking about defenses, only what TH does well. To me it's simple, the dude is an absolute escape artist and magician with his legs. And to your point, defenses will definitely look to take away his running but that leaves more one-on-one coverage. Getting players back and healthy is gonna be huge for TH, epecially Logan Thomas. He has shown that he can get the ball to the playmakers and is a very good playmaker himself when playing loose and using his legs. Like I said in my McGinnest point, you can gameplan against QB's with legs but they are still a nightmare to play against.

[zCommander]

Was just thinking 🤔 if our D had played like yesterday in the playoff game we would have won that game too. 

[Wildbunny]

2 minutes ago, zskins said:

Was just thinking 🤔 if our D had played like yesterday in the playoff game we would have won that game too. 

If our D played like this since the beginning of the season we would be 7-2 too!

[zCommander]

1 hour ago, Wildbunny said:

If our D played like this since the beginning of the season we would be 7-2 too!

 

Yes true but I was thinking against Brady though and deep into the playoffs instead. Our D was a lot better last year but went flat against Brady on the big stage. 

[Koolblue13]

2 hours ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

Short yardage is so different now. The refs don't blow the play dead like they used to, which allows OL to push the pile into the end zone. Not a fan of this really, they don't give the defense much of a chance.  

Play stops when forward progress stops. Is that new?

[Voice_of_Reason]

6 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

We average over 5 yards a carry on first down and it sets up plays like the PA roll out later in the game. When teams stop our running game on first down, we've changed it up. 

 

Even the announcers made the point in this game that you're going to be running into a wall often in this game and you have to keep doing it, because you can't run outside, because their players are too fast and athletic, which we saw when we did run outside and you don't want to just abandon the run all together.

 

We left our highly ranked Oline attack the guys in front of them and tried banging Gibson through it and I'd say by the end of the game, they certainly looked like they got handled. We are not faster, so we were stronger and it worked.

The announcers were idiots, and in no world were we averaging 5 yards a carry on first down.  Galdi talked about this on his podcast this morning also.  The insistence to run on first down is maddening.  Again, Gibby through his first 11 carries, which lasted until basically the mid-theird quarter was 11 for 15 yards.  

 

Mark Schlereth kept saying they had to fall in love with the 4 yard run.  The problem is, they were averaging 1.2 yards per run on first down.

 

The only reason it worked is because they were 10-14 on 3rd down.  If they didn't convert third downs at a high clip, they would have punted a whole lot. 

 

I'm not against running the ball.  What I'm for is running the ball in better situations, and being more diverse on first downs.  

 

When the play-by-play data comes out later this week, I'll track each of the first down runs.  Up until the end of the game, from memory, there were 2-3 large losses, 2 good ones, and a whole lot of 1 yard runs. 

 

You just CAN'T live that way.  Because you put this limited passing game into known passing situations.  It's not fair to TH, it's not fair to Terry McLaurin.  

 

They have to mix it up more on first downs.  At times, just flip the order. Pass on first, run on second. Instead of Run on first, and pass on second.

 

If you have a 4-5 yard completion, and run on 2nd and 4-6, that REALLY puts the defense in a quandary.

 

If you consistently are in 2nd and 9, then you HAVE to pass on second and third down, which tips the defense off.  

 

t worked this time.  But it won't work consistently.  

[FuriousD]

3 hours ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

Short yardage is so different now. The refs don't blow the play dead like they used to, which allows OL to push the pile into the end zone. Not a fan of this really, they don't give the defense much of a chance.  

I was laughing when the commentator gave the credit to Gibson because "he wouldn't be denied", or some such nonsense.  Truth is the Oline swallowed Gibson whole and regurgitated him on the other side of the line...

[Koolblue13]

15 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

The announcers were idiots, and in no world were we averaging 5 yards a carry on first down.  Galdi talked about this on his podcast this morning also.  The insistence to run on first down is maddening.  Again, Gibby through his first 11 carries, which lasted until basically the mid-theird quarter was 11 for 15 yards.  

 

Mark Schlereth kept saying they had to fall in love with the 4 yard run.  The problem is, they were averaging 1.2 yards per run on first down.

 

The only reason it worked is because they were 10-14 on 3rd down.  If they didn't convert third downs at a high clip, they would have punted a whole lot. 

 

I'm not against running the ball.  What I'm for is running the ball in better situations, and being more diverse on first downs.  

 

When the play-by-play data comes out later this week, I'll track each of the first down runs.  Up until the end of the game, from memory, there were 2-3 large losses, 2 good ones, and a whole lot of 1 yard runs. 

 

You just CAN'T live that way.  Because you put this limited passing game into known passing situations.  It's not fair to TH, it's not fair to Terry McLaurin.  

 

They have to mix it up more on first downs.  At times, just flip the order. Pass on first, run on second. Instead of Run on first, and pass on second.

 

If you have a 4-5 yard completion, and run on 2nd and 4-6, that REALLY puts the defense in a quandary.

 

If you consistently are in 2nd and 9, then you HAVE to pass on second and third down, which tips the defense off.  

 

t worked this time.  But it won't work consistently.  

This week we didn't average 5 yards a carry, no, but we generally do and people continue to whine about it. This week was obviously about wearing out the defense and continuing to pound it out.

 

Every team in the league runs on first down more than they pass. Every single one. We're usually really good at it. This week against the best run D in the league it wasn't as affective. But it set a lot of plays up for us later in the game and outside runs don't work against the Bucs and you don't want to pass too much, because then you end up on 2nd and long. 

[86 Snyder]

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Edited November 15, 2021 by 86 Snyder
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[Wildbunny]

2 minutes ago, 86 Snyder said:

 

Oh really?  The only teams that actually run more on first down than they pass are Philly and Chicago.  And in 2020, only New England and Baltimore did.

 

On the other hand, there are 14 teams that pass on 1st down more than 60% of the time.  Tampa averages 70%.  And in 2020, 16 teams passed on 1st down more than 60% of the time.

 

You really have no idea what you're talking about.

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/passing-first-down-pct

 

That links also invalidates the theory that we're running more on first down than everything else

 

[86 Snyder]

6 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

That links also invalidates the theory that we're running more on first down than everything else

 

 

Its actually a bad link.  Its all down data not just 1st (got lost when clicking around).  I found 1st down stats though and 16 teams pass more than run.  Not as heavily skewed on the percentages though.  3 teams at 60% and 10 at 55% pass.

 

Skins pass at 55%.

Edited November 15, 2021 by 86 Snyder

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

This week we didn't average 5 yards a carry, no, but we generally do and people continue to whine about it.

I’m sorry, we don’t.  It’s not close.  It’s about 2.5 yards per carry. Unless you can find evidence otherwise, that the number ive seen.  

[FootballZombie]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

You just CAN'T live that way.  Because you put this limited passing game into known passing situations. 

 

 

I can give Turner a pass on first down up the gut runs for this week.

 

We have seen our O hang our D out to dry for they last several games. If your not gonna put up points you at least gotta provide blow, and squeezing the clock by running at the first available opportunity does that. Furthermore, Tampa is stout against the run and loves to send extra pressure wide of the edge. It was probably a part of the gameplan for runners to get out of the backfield as fast as possible, so up the middle runs were prioritized.

 

We put up 29 yesterday so it worked out, but if your consistently putting up 10 and 13 like we were for a stretch, then you gotta provide value to your team in other ways.

 

I don't think the offensive minds were confident we would put up anywhere near 30 this week, so they devised an offensive gameplan that allowed us to burn clock and limit our D's time on the field on top of taking time away from Tom to do maximum damage.

 

23 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I’m sorry, we don’t.  It’s not close.  It’s about 2.5 yards per carry. Unless you can find evidence otherwise, that the number ive seen.  

 

1039 Rush Yds

241 Rush Atts

 

4.3 Avg

 

We only had a 2.7 Avg vs Tampa and I'm pretty sure that was our worst avg of the season so far. Our run game is usually much more efficient. Should expect a drop off going against Tampa tho.

Edited November 15, 2021 by FootballZombie

[zCommander]

What was with the time on the board vs. the time on the TV yesterday. 26 seconds left and the clock didn't even start while Tampa snapped the ball. Time on the field board said 2 seconds left. It should have been over since Tampa didn't have any time outs left. The refs continued to give them time even though there was not time left on the board and then the penalty happens and the free play. Time management by the refs was really bad on that series. It was like they wanted Tampa to score on that drive. 

[ThomasRoane]

Back from my sabbatical.  

Best thing about the upset of TB for me is work related.  I give upset alerts to our General officers on Friday Director Huddles.  Earlier this year, I picked Cincy over Baltimore.  Titans (minus King Henry) over the Rams, and a couple of others.  They know I'm a WFT fan and I was reluctant to come out and say it but I really felt like they would win.  My line of reasoning:

 

1) The Goat hates pressure in his face.  I counted on Allen, Payne, Ionnaidas, and Settle to make him uncomfortable in the pocket.

2) No Gronk or AB.  

3) Reading between the lines, Rivera was cracking the whip a little more.  Subtle things like having Patterson out touch Gibson helped me believe we'd see the best Gibby performance yet.  I felt if they could run the ball with decent success, they could win.

4) Defense has been playing better with Collins closer to the line and not trailing wide open receivers.

5) Trap game for Tampa.  I don't doubt that Arians and Bowles were trying to warn their players but players are human too.  They look at records and subconsciously they underestimate losing teams.  I've been there as a coach.  It sucks!  But, players have to go thru it and I don't think Tampa will take the giants for granted.  

 

Can't wait for the Director's huddle tomorrow.  I took a lot of crap on Friday.  I'll be serving crow soup, crow legs, and crow pudding.  

 

About the game:

 

Kudos to RR for the two point kneel down.  Really smart.  And for going for the jugular and the TD to seal the deal.

 

Thought Turner adjusted well to the 1st and second down run blitzes in the second half.  Although, Patterson better learn to catch because they're way too predictable with him in the backfield.  

 

WJ III is a bonehead!  I was worried the 3 point freebie at the end of the first half would spark TB.

 

Thought TH did a great job.  Did more than manage the game.  He must have been juiced because he threw a bullet to Humphries on that out route.  That ball was smoking.  

 

Scary Terry is quickly becoming an all-time favorite.  Love that guy!  Sooooo underrated!  

 

Thought all three back up pass rushers played very well.  Still don't want to see a pass rusher drop in coverage but Toohill didn't look clumsy back there.  

 

Holcomb and Davis are making progress.  Still have a way to go but I like what I see.  They're trending upwards.  Just need more time together on the field I think.  

 

Oline, with all the injuries, - man! - just an outstanding job there!  Scherff came back to play but he's not getting the big payday he wants.  At this point, not even worth the franchise tag.  

 

What a game!!!

[Darrell Green Fan]

19 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

Play stops when forward progress stops. Is that new?

 

But the play does not stop today.   We see forward progress stopped all the time, no whistle, then the teammates push the pile into the end zone.  This just wasn't the case 20 years ago, back is stopped and whistle blew before the big shove.  

 

18 hours ago, FuriousD said:

I was laughing when the commentator gave the credit to Gibson because "he wouldn't be denied", or some such nonsense.  Truth is the Oline swallowed Gibson whole and regurgitated him on the other side of the line...

 

This was going to be the last part of the post above. The announcers constantly give the back credit for such power. But the power was suppled by two 300 pound lineman.  

Edited November 16, 2021 by Darrell Green Fan

[Koolblue13]

18 hours ago, 86 Snyder said:

.

I was looking at an older link when I got the 53%.

 

https://www.nfl.com/news/first-down-success-is-the-key-to-third-down-conversions-09000d5d80ae2bf7

[tmandoug1]

Quick question on the Mclaurin hit.....is defenseless reciever only when they don't have the ball? For some reason my tiny brain wanted a flag on that play.

[skinny21]

1 hour ago, tmandoug1 said:

Quick question on the Mclaurin hit.....is defenseless reciever only when they don't have the ball? For some reason my tiny brain wanted a flag on that play.

Nope, you can definitely have possession and be defenseless.  And my immediate thought was that it was a clear penalty - that that’s the type of hit the NFL is trying to limit.  I’m open to someone changing my mind.

Edited November 16, 2021 by skinny21

[Wildbunny]

32 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Nope, you can definitely have possession and be defenseless.  And my immediate thought was that it was a clear penalty - that that’s the type of hit the NFL is trying to limit.  I’m open to someone changing my mind.

I had the same kind of reaction on the hit to McKissic, IIRC. The defender said he went with the shoulder instead on the helmet, but my problem here was McKissic was already going down and the shoulder went straight to the head.

 

Then Ref just said there was no foul on the play. You can call both plays bang-bang, but that's really close to the limit on both.

 

On the first Gibson run of the game, the defender clearly grabbed him by the helmet with no flag.

Those Bucs D are somehow nasty in a bad way.

[UK Skins]

3 hours ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

But the play does not stop today.   We see forward progress stopped all the time, no whistle, then the teammates push the pile into the end zone.  This just wasn't the case 20 years ago, back is stopped and whistle blew before the big shove.  

 

 

I've seen this happen more times this season than all the others put together. I don't know if they changed the rule or the interpretation but something's up. And someone is going to get badly injured before they put a stop to it.

[Koolblue13]

Just put lil Patterson in a back back and let him ride Wes around like a ****ing bulldozer.

[Peregrine]

On 11/15/2021 at 6:08 AM, Simmsy said:

Not little faith, no faith.

Well, I guess if you are going to be proven wrong, might as well double down on it

[kingdaddy]

No matter what else happens in TH's career he will always be able to say that he beat and was better than the GOAT on that very special day. If you beat the GOAT then you have to be in the conversation as the starting QB moving forward regardless of whatever limitations your critics say you have. You're a winner son.