The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randal 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Fromm battle for QB2 and so begins the Handsome Harem for Hartman

[The Consigliere]

14 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

As a runner, I'd summarize it as he has good vision and is opportunistic, and his lower body is thick enough to take punishment and he's a gutsy runner.

 

He's athletic enough. 

 

Ryan Fitzpatrick ran a 4.87.  Yet had almost 2700 career rushing yards.  He was an opportunistic runner.  Derek Carr runs in the 4.6's yet is considered by some borderline immobile.

 

 

 

It's funny, on player profiler, they have him as a miserable like 8th percentile 40 yard dash at 5.07, size adjusted its 32nd percentile but it doesn't seem to matter. He seems a natural at finding holes, sliding through them, and collecting yards in chunks despite the lack of top end speed or a second gear. I doubt we see him w/those 40-50 yard gainers like he had with the Tar Heels, but I don't think he'll have a problem collecting 1st downs with scrambles and making little chunk runs into the end zone like we saw against the cowboys when he sees the opportunity. He's not a dual threat QB obviously, but he's a lot more mobile than most of the QB's we've had since RGIII. Only Alex Smith was probably at his level and he blew up his leg (and was old) by then. 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, The Consigliere said:

It's funny, on player profiler, they have him as a miserable like 8th percentile 40 yard dash at 5.07, size adjusted its 32nd percentile but it doesn't seem to matter. He seems a natural at finding holes, sliding through them, and collecting yards in chunks despite the lack of top end speed or a second gear. I doubt we see him w/those 40-50 yard gainers like he had with the Tar Heels, but I don't think he'll have a problem collecting 1st downs with scrambles and making little chunk runs into the end zone like we saw against the cowboys when he sees the opportunity. He's not a dual threat QB obviously, but he's a lot more mobile than most of the QB's we've had since RGIII. Only Alex Smith was probably at his level and he blew up his leg (and was old) by then. 

 

Nagy talked about Howell in a podcast I listened to today.

 

He had him in the Senior Bowl last year.  He actually talked up his athleticism some.  He thinks the league missed out on him, compared the miss to Herbert who he also had in the Senior Bowl in the past.  Lofty comparison, hope he's right of course.

 

He ran for over 800 yards, yet some were concerned about his mobility.  I was in that group because I wondered if it would translate?  But then it did in the Senior Bowl.  Then it did again in the preseason.  Then it did again in the Dallas game.  So I think I am sold.

 

I used to run track.  I am not bad at guessing speed.  Sometimes I miss though,  I'd be shocked if he ran a 5 or above.  He looks to me about 4.8. 

 

He has good vision and is very decisive when it comes to taking off.  That helps a ton.   But I think his running superpower is he makes cuts in the open field like a RB, I wouldn't call them wicked elite level RB moves but for a Qb IMO he's above average at it.  He's not a straight line runner like most QBs. 

 

 

Edited January 27, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[CobraCommander]

9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Nagy talked about Howell in a podcast I listened to today.

 

He had him in the Senior Bowl last year.  He actually talked up his athleticism some.  He thinks the league missed out on him, compared the miss to Herbert who he also had in the Senior Bowl in the past.  Lofty comparison, hope he's right of course.

 

He ran for over 800 yards, yet some were concerned about his mobility.  I was in that group because I wondered if it would translate?  But then it did in the Senior Bowl.  Then it did again in the preseason.  Then it did again in the Dallas game.  So I think I am sold.

 

I used to run track.  I am not bad at guessing speed.  Sometimes I miss though,  I'd be shocked if he ran a 5 or above.  He looks to me about 4.8. 

 

He has good vision and is very decisive when it comes to taking off.  That helps a ton.   But I think his running superpower is he makes cuts in the open field like a RB, I wouldn't call them wicked elite level RB moves but for a Qb IMO he's above average at it.  He's not a straight line runner like most QBs. 

 

 

That was impressive. He runs a LOT like a rb. He can take hits, split defenders, spin move, stiff arm, cut inside and outside to sideline. I like it. Most importantly he can slide.  

[The Consigliere]

You're right, he didn't record a 40 at the combine or from what I can tell, at his pro day. His 5.07 40 is from recruiting information, it's all we got, and most guys improve at least 1 to 2/10th's of a second from their High School #'s, especially if they're that garbage. He doesn't look 5.07 to me either, he looks 4.85-4.9. 

 

I ran track in high school too, and while he looks slower than I was, he doesn't look slower by that much, he's not like a slug. 

 

I think we generally agree, and i watched that same video. He's got twitchy hips, he knows how to misdirect approaching potential tacklers w/subtle movements, he's a natural runner in his own, weird way. It just looks kind of odd, and I don't see acceleration, he basically gets to his top speed very quickly and that's a wrap, no second gear, but it works for us. He can move in the pocket and give us short and medium gainers and that's fine. If he can do everything else, he won't be a duel threat guy, but he will be a guy like say, in the vein of Theismann, and Schreoder or even Montana, that weren't statues back there, that could pick up yards when things went sideways on them (technically Theismann was much better than that but by our run in the eighites he was more just a solid escape artist than a high end athlete) and scramble as needed. 

 

I remain really stunned at how far he fell, it was and is super bizarre. I'm used to seeing that w/perceived quality RB's and WR's, but QB's? Not really. I wonder if he interviewed badly or was carrying an injury?

[Skinsinparadise]

14 minutes ago, The Consigliere said:

 

I remain really stunned at how far he fell, it was and is super bizarre. I'm used to seeing that w/perceived quality RB's and WR's, but QB's? Not really. I wonder if he interviewed badly or was carrying an injury?

 

Greg Cosell who seems pretty plugged in around the league thought one hesitation was his height.  His point was with Mayfield struggiling at the time -- perception around the league is the 6 foot and under QBs sans Drew Brees were at a disadvantage unless they are super mobile

 

Here are some of the comments of NFL scouts to Bob McGinn .  Per usual they are mixed on the player.  Some like, some don't. 

 

https://www.golongtd.com/p/part-3-qb-bet-on-teams-in-need-rolling

 

 

5. SAM HOWELL, North Carolina (6-0 ½, 224, no 40, 1-2): Third-year junior with 37 straight starts. “Like him,” one scout said. “He’s a gunslinger. I like the aggression he plays with. Got a strong arm. Can go vertical. He’s a good athlete for the position. He’s got the makeup to play early and be efficient. He can take advantage of your weapons. He’s got the arm to reach ‘em.” Slipped back in 2021 after the Tar Heels lost many of their best skill-position players to the NFL. Passer ratings were 112.3 in 2019, 122.1 in ’20 and 103.1 in ’21. Still, his career mark of 112.5 was the best of the top 12 passers. “Pound for pound he’s one of the toughest guys in the draft,” another scout said. “His offensive line stunk and he got the crap beat out of him. He’s not afraid to run, and he pops right back up. What’s interesting is, with his leadership, he’s almost a mute. He has no vocal presence at all. But he’s a three-time captain and he’s tough and he goes out and balls. He’s kind of weird; he only leads by example. Joe Flacco was that same way and he ended up to be pretty good. A good comparison is a more talented Gardner Minshew. Just a baller, you know?” Also rushed 369 times for 1,009 (2.7) and 17 TDs. Wonderlic of 34. Hands were 9 1/8. “Everybody wants to compare him to Baker Mayfield,” said a third scout. “It’s not even close. He’s just another short quarterback who’s thick and got an OK arm. In 2020, he had great receivers around him. He didn’t have crap around him this year and he struggles. He feels it (pressure). Just a backup.” From Indiana Trail, N.C.

Edited January 27, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[mistertim]

Yeah Howell looks like a 4.8 guy to me. Which is absolutely fine for a QB. Mahomes ran a 4.8 and Allen ran a 4.76, and I doubt anyone would question that those guys can make plays with their legs.

 

Sure, Howell is probably not going to bust out any 70 yard TD runs but how many QBs do, and how often do you really need your QB to do that? Most of what they'll be doing is extending plays or running for under 15-20 yards to pick up a 1st down to extend a drive. That and red zone RPO plays, and top end speed makes little difference there.

 

The more important things are vision, having some wiggle/juke ability, knowing when to tuck it and run, and being able to make that decision quickly.

Edited January 27, 2023 by mistertim

[skinny21]

I’ll add that Howell has solid contact balance (though that’s not something you really want your qb utilizing much, lol).

 

More importantly, he seems to have an innate understanding of leverage.  Maybe that’s considered part and parcel with vision (it’s at least tied to it of course), but (IMO) that highlight video is basically an homage to his ability to use defender’s leverage against themselves.

[El Mexican]

On 1/25/2023 at 6:57 PM, mistertim said:

 

Not going to rehash the stuff above this as it's already been discussed ad nauseam re: Heini/Wentz.

 

The W-L thing has been rehashed before as well, but I think it applies to the QB position in general so it can be addressed without discussing those guys specifically. IMO W-L record is one of the least objective ways to look at a QB situation because there are so many factors that go into winning or losing games. You can have a QB play like crap and win a game or a QB play like a star and still lose.

 

I'm not saying W-L is meaningless but it has to be taken with a big grain of salt and is only a small part of the QB analysis equation. If we went purely on W-L records, then the Texans should have benched Deshaun Watson during the 2020 season. They didn't. Why? Because he was playing at an All-Pro level and was clearly not the reason they were losing games.

 

I agree man, it's just that the play by both of our guys was soooo irregular it's hard to find any semblance of comparison to more established franchises.

Seems like this has gone for a while now and the playoffs only exacerbate our situation. Most of the final teams left in contention find ways to make their QBs shine.

On 1/25/2023 at 6:43 PM, Conn said:

Disclaimer: I think this is fine, I’m not trying to gatekeep football chat. But it cries out for commentary. 
 

Don’t you think the above should cause you to pause a moment before bulling ahead with full confidence in your own opinion? You’re touting the old QB winz argument that’s been disproven a million times, simplifying a very complex subject to the point that the conversation is pointless, and in addition you don’t know who a ton of QBs across the league are? 
 

Again, that’s fine. But maybe this isn’t the topic to have strong feelings about. 

 

Yep, I'll be honest here: I only care about WSH football.

I tend to zone out what goes around the League and only focus on what's important to me as a fan of 35+ years.

 

Those other QBs you mentioned only begin to start being relevant if they ever arrive here.

 

I wasn't trying to be cheeky. They are simply not on my radar.

[MartinC]

The 40 yard dash might be the most overrated metric there is in terms of evaluating a players game speed and athleticism.

 

Not saying it’s totally unimportant - but it’s given far too much attention IMO. Three cone, shuttle and vertical jump are what I would look at a better measure of explosion and athletic ability that translates to a football field.

[KDawg]

Howell looks like a 3.6 speed guy to me. Can throw the ball over some mountains, too.

[mistertim]

6 minutes ago, MartinC said:

The 40 yard dash might be the most overrated metric there is in terms of evaluating a players game speed and athleticism.

 

Not saying it’s totally unimportant - but it’s given far too much attention IMO. Three cone, shuttle and vertical jump are what I would look at a better measure of explosion and athletic ability that translates to a football field.

 

Yeah it's definitely overrated. Though IMO it can be somewhat meaningful for some positions. Like with a DB it can give you an idea of his recovery speed and ability to keep up with fast receivers on go routes. Likewise with a receiver it can give you an idea of his breakaway speed on deep routes.

 

But for most other positions it's irrelevant. RB maybe, but most runs by a back aren't going to be game breakers where he'll be in the clear and need to outrun DBs. Much more important for RBs are things like short area acceleration, vision, and balance.

[Professor_Nutter_Butter]

6 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Howell looks like a 3.6 speed guy to me. Can throw the ball over some mountains, too.

[Est.1974]

It’s Howell or go all in for Carr. Everything else is white noise for me.

[PictureDrawer]

Here's my two cents:

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[The Rook]

2 hours ago, skinny21 said:

I’ll add that Howell has solid contact balance (though that’s not something you really want your qb utilizing much, lol).

 

More importantly, he seems to have an innate understanding of leverage.  Maybe that’s considered part and parcel with vision (it’s at least tied to it of course), but (IMO) that highlight video is basically an homage to his ability to use defender’s leverage against themselves.

 

That was a take-away I had also. 

 

And it is not just balance, but he puts his body in motion at the time contact, which redirects the energy. He also uses the re-directed energy to shift against the grain of pursuit.  It is actually pretty cool to watch.  He just caroms until he breaks free.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Rook

[Koolblue13]

Minshew makes sense if we're calling Howell QB1 from day 1.

[mistertim]

Eh, I guess I'd be ok with Minshew. Only thing is that he's another one of those guys with a big personality and who gets some rabid followers that way, even if he's not a very good QB. So I could potentially see a situation where if Howell struggles a bit, we suddenly have the Ministry of Minshew who want to put him in because of his "moxie" or whatever.

[Skinsinparadise]

5 minutes ago, mistertim said:

Eh, I guess I'd be ok with Minshew. Only thing is that he's another one of those guys with a big personality and who gets some rabid followers that way, even if he's not a very good QB. So I could potentially see a situation where if Howell struggles a bit, we suddenly have the Ministry of Minshew who want to put him in because of his "moxie" or whatever.

 

Minshew would help kill a lot of time in debate and keep the emotions running high on this thread.  Some are taken with Heinicke's personality but can only imagine what happens when some get swept away by Minshew's moxie?

 

GARDNER MINSHEW: THE NFL QUARTERBACK EVERYONE WANTS TO BE FRIENDS WITH

"People just like Gardner," Wyatt Rogers, Minshew’s quarterback coach and offensive coordinator at Mississippi’s Brandon High School told me via phone this week. "They always have. He is just a down-to-earth guy who does a wonderful job of relating to all social classes.

"He is a typical American male. He can hang with the country boys and also with the city boys. People feel like he is the sort of person they can sit and have a beer with. He is a throwback to when kids were really tough and people find that endearing. He has a blue-collar work ethic that has gotten him to where he is. He is just a fun guy to be around."

 

https://www.foxsports.com/stories/nfl/gardner-minshew-trade-philadelphia-eagles-jacksonville-jaguars-martin-rogers

[The Consigliere]

2 hours ago, MartinC said:

The 40 yard dash might be the most overrated metric there is in terms of evaluating a players game speed and athleticism.

 

Not saying it’s totally unimportant - but it’s given far too much attention IMO. Three cone, shuttle and vertical jump are what I would look at a better measure of explosion and athletic ability that translates to a football field.

 

It depends, it doesn't seem to matter for WR's beyond being reasonably fast (there's only a handful of 4.69 or worst guys that made it like Boldin), for RB's it matters in terms of the threshold, there's next to no relevant guys that are worse than 4.65. In terms of TE, it and other athleticism tools seem to be really, really relevant, most of the best guys seem to score reasonably well, especially in the 40 (for the position). I don't really think it matters at all for QB's. 3 Cone and Explosion drills (broad jump, vertical leap) could matter for RB's, but there's nothing definitive yet other than that it's a nice cherry on top sort of thing to be good and bad if it isn't there at all but still some guys have hit it big despite scoring poorly (Dalvin Cook for instance was terrible w/the agility and explosion drills, great w/everything else and when you watched him, especially the younger version, the poor agility and explosion drill #'s were utterly baffling).

 

40 yard dash in and of itself isn't helpful beyond noticing for thresholds of relevance. For instance, Jahan Dotson ran a very good 40, though only a soid 40 for his size, but beyond that, its largely irrelvant. If your 40 is low 4.4's that's fine, having a 4.3 or a 4.4 isn't that big a deal either way, it just starts to matter if you're sitting at 4.6 and worse at which point you will struggle to break away from coverage and safeties unless you are a fabulous route guy like Rice. 

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

Howell has great vision as a runner and it shows on tape. Combine that with his underrated lateral quickness and you get some of those long runs. 
 

And I hate reading that “he’s weird”. He’s not. 
 

Sign me up for Minshew. I wanna backup QB with a mullet. Skill set be damned. 
 

 

 

 

[mistertim]

4 minutes ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

 

And I hate reading that “he’s weird”. He’s not. 
 

 

Howell never eaten steak or a burger in his life. I love him as a player but I'm not sure I can ever fully trust a person who's never eaten steak.

Edited January 27, 2023 by mistertim

[Conn]

35 minutes ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

Howell has great vision as a runner and it shows on tape. Combine that with his underrated lateral quickness and you get some of those long runs. 
 

And I hate reading that “he’s weird”. He’s not. 
 

Sign me up for Minshew. I wanna backup QB with a mullet. Skill set be damned. 
 

 

 

 

 

I think the “looks weird” commentary is about how he runs pretty effortlessly—but when you look at all of his attributes, it doesn’t really make sense why. A situation where the sum of all the parts is a functional, smooth athlete with a real mind for slipping through defenders

[tmandoug1]

So now Howell is QB1 and Minshew is QB2......I'm going to bed. 

[Koolblue13]