The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[tmandoug1]

2 minutes ago, El Mexican said:

 

All you said is true, yet he won the most games for us this season. No way around it.

 

The real problem this season was RR evaluating incorrectly (again) our starting QB.

 

Too many wasted opportunities.

Technically not all was true...

Marcus Marriotta

Matt Ryan

Malik Willis

Mike White

Davis Mills

Baker Mayfield

Zach Wilson

And lo and behold Carson Wentz were suckier this year according to the almighty internet.

 

This is still fun though...right guys?

[Jumbo]

52 minutes ago, El Mexican said:

 

All you said is true, yet he won the most games for us this season. No way around it.

 

 

No "he" didn't win those games. Think. We can argue about how much he contributed to the win. Those wins were team wins. We can also argue about which units, play callers, and any of the individual players had more or less to do with a given win. Is this too complicated for those of a certain leaning here? It sure seems so.

 

All of it been laid out clearly and accurately by the vast majority of longtime solid football posters here. It's unfortunate how poorly some chosen positions are presented.

[FootballZombie]

24 minutes ago, El Mexican said:

All you said is true, yet he won the most games for us this season. No way around it.

 

Somebody had to hand the ball off 40 times a game I guess.

 

Dude won games for us like the McGuire Twins won the Tour de France... meaning they didn't.

 

 

[CommanderCarson]

13 hours ago, Conn said:

 

Huh? The only thing that’s “hindsight” is um…commenting with the benefit of hindsight like you’re doing. Heinicke stunk, the team needed a spark. I don’t excuse Rivera for anything because I (like some others) was calling for Howell since the bye. And clearly more snaps for Howell would have been a better outcome, so we were correct. Wentz isn’t what I wanted to see in an ideal world, but it was obvious to anyone watching that Heinicke needed to be benched. Wentz was a colossal failure here and a bad trade. I’m not rewriting history or excusing the decision. I’m talking about when Heinicke was playing poorly enough to be benched. Wentz playing poorly in relief doesn’t change the context of the situation. 

 

All this aside, this conversation started with me asking how Rivera “threw Heinicke under the bus”. Heinicke owes his whole career to this coaching staff being unable to upgrade on him, that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t have tried. Rivera benched a bad QB and one of the replacements was also bad. It happens, doesn’t mean you just stick with one guy as if he’s a Make-a-Wish kid you owe the opportunity to. You guys are STILL delusional with this Heinicke stuff holy crap. Jumbo was right, even just the whiff of this topic dumbs this entire thread and board down. So I’m going to leave it here. I have no agenda. 

To be clear, here’s the part I took issue with:

 

Quote

Something had to be done to try to bring the spark Heinicke had stopped bringing many games earlier.

 

First of all, and I can’t help but point this out, not one of the eight people that liked your response thought heineke ever provided a “spark.” That’s been argued to death here, that’s he’s so incredibly bad at playing QB that he was sitting in a lawn chair just enjoying the ride. I get that, it’s been established. So don’t change it up now and act like he ever provided a “spark.” You fought the fact that he brought a spark every step of the way. You and many others. 
 

Then the part about “something had to be done.” Not wrong here, considering I stated at the time that I was excited by Wentz’ performance coming in against the niners and that I thought he deserved that chance to bring a “spark.” The problem is I was dead wrong. And so was Rivera it turns out, with the benefit of hindsight. You’re presenting it as if it was still the right decision and absolutely no brainer he should have done that. Well, I’ll be the first to say I disagree completely with that statement. It was understandable at the time, completely unacceptable with hindsight. That was my point.

 

Look, the backing here is anti heineke and I don’t even really care to debate it cause I’m stoked on Howell and by no means under the illusion Heineke is our QBOFT. Not sure I see anyone, literally anyone, suggesting otherwise. Lol it’s actually so funny to me and I sometimes feel like I’m taking crazy pills reading this thread. But anywho, couldn’t help but respond because while I get your overall point that heineke was never thrown under the bus and should give this staff a lot of credit, stating “something had to be done” after we witnessed what Wentz came up with is the equivalent of saying you wish you didn’t win a million dollars after buying a lottery ticket. It just doesn’t really make sense tbh.

[mistertim]

2 minutes ago, CommanderCarson said:

 

First of all, and I can’t help but point this out, not one of the eight people that liked your response thought heineke ever provided a “spark.” 

But anywho, couldn’t help but respond

 

 

 

Also, I feel like you're assuming a lot about the 8 people you indirectly called out there.

[zCommander]

43 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

 

Somebody had to hand the ball off 40 times a game I guess.

 

 

Too bad they didn't do that with Wentz in the Browns game. Only 34 times. 6 more hand offs and we could have won. 

 

Edited January 25, 2023 by zCommander

[CommanderCarson]

Just now, mistertim said:

Also, I feel like you're assuming a lot about the 8 people you indirectly called out there.

 

Nice.

 

And am I? Which one of those 8 posted about the spark heineke lit under the team this year? There are less than 8 people total here that think heineke belongs on an NFL roster.

[mistertim]

Just now, CommanderCarson said:

Nice.

 

And am I? Which one of those 8 posted about the spark heineke lit under the team this year? There are less than 8 people total here that think heineke belongs on an NFL roster.

 

Being one of the 8, I can personally say that I do think Heinicke provided a "spark" at first when he replaced Wentz. It might not necessarily have been a football related spark (it's not like he came out and started tossing 4 TDs per game or something), but more of a mental/emotional one that many teammates rallied around.

 

However, I think his deteriorating play over time sort of nullified that spark, which is why Ron decided to try another change.

[CommanderCarson]

Just now, mistertim said:

 

Being one of the 8, I can personally say that I do think Heinicke provided a "spark" at first when he replaced Wentz. It might not necessarily have been a football related spark (it's not like he came out and started tossing 4 TDs per game or something), but more of a mental/emotional one that many teammates rallied around.

 

However, I think his deteriorating play over time sort of nullified that spark, which is why Ron decided to try another change.

Well I appreciate that and agree, not necessarily sold that’s been the common theme from you or others on here but agreed if that’s how you really feel.

[Conn]

41 minutes ago, CommanderCarson said:

I can’t help but point this out, not one of the eight people that liked your response thought heineke ever provided a “spark.” That’s been argued to death here, that’s he’s so incredibly bad at playing QB that he was sitting in a lawn chair just enjoying the ride. I get that, it’s been established. So don’t change it up now and act like he ever provided a “spark.” You fought the fact that he brought a spark every step of the way. You and many others. 

 

I was being nice. In order to not go out of my way to antagonize a group of posters here that have never in their lives seen a piece of bait they were capable of ignoring. I had a point to make and decided to attempt to avoid the conversation you and I are having right now by being generous towards Heinicke’s previous contributions. Even that didn’t work, because as you say—you just can’t help yourself. Everything is a perceived insult that must be responded to. 

 

41 minutes ago, CommanderCarson said:

Then the part about “something had to be done.” Not wrong here, considering I stated at the time that I was excited by Wentz’ performance coming in against the niners and that I thought he deserved that chance to bring a “spark.” The problem is I was dead wrong. And so was Rivera it turns out, with the benefit of hindsight. You’re presenting it as if it was still the right decision and absolutely no brainer he should have done that. Well, I’ll be the first to say I disagree completely with that statement. It was understandable at the time, completely unacceptable with hindsight. That was my point.

 

Okay, I see the problem here. You don’t know what it means to be intellectually honest and consistent. You think that having the benefit of hindsight somehow magically changes the original context of the situation you now have the benefit of hindsight to critique. That…makes no ****ing sense. Re-read your first couple sentences there. That’s logical. Saying that the best decision was made at the time but it went wrong—that is logically consistent and can form the basis of a rational argument. The result can still be criticized and critiqued without pretending like the decision that led to the result is now, in retrospect, bat**** insane.

Now read the rest of what you wrote. It’s taking a time machine into an argument with you. It makes no sense. It’s not logically consistent at all. Knowing that it turned out poorly doesn’t change that it still made sense at the time. Your brain is so twisted up in knots over the Heinicke stuff that you are literally confusing yourself. 
 

Let me be clearer. What you’re arguing does not make sense at all. You should reevaluate it. 

 

41 minutes ago, CommanderCarson said:

Look, the backing here is anti heineke and I don’t even really care to debate it cause I’m stoked on Howell and by no means under the illusion Heineke is our QBOFT. Not sure I see anyone, literally anyone, suggesting otherwise. Lol it’s actually so funny to me and I sometimes feel like I’m taking crazy pills reading this thread.

 

This is called a straw man argument. First you set up a fake argument that nobody is making (that the Heinicke crazies we talk about in here have to exclusively think he’s our future franchise QB in order to actually exist), and then you knock it down. What you’re also doing, without even realizing it, is demonstrating the actual behavior we ascribe to the Heinicke illness. You’re demonstrating incredibly thin skin in defending any perceived slight, denying actual reality about what happened while you choose to live in a dream, and then demonstrating a complete lack of self-awareness about it. While scoffing in self-assured ignorance. You’re behaving almost as a dead-on parody of the thing that you swear doesn’t exist. 

 

41 minutes ago, CommanderCarson said:

But anywho, couldn’t help but respond because while I get your overall point

 

I need to again establish here that the reason you can’t help but respond when you read the word “Heinicke” in a post and feel instantly attacked is because you are one of the people we talk about in here. I think Jumbo’s letting his least favorite intern run a therapy group for you folks, DM him. 

 

41 minutes ago, CommanderCarson said:

that heineke was never thrown under the bus and should give this staff a lot of credit, stating “something had to be done” after we witnessed what Wentz came up with is the equivalent of saying you wish you didn’t win a million dollars after buying a lottery ticket. It just doesn’t really make sense tbh.

Ironically (given your final sentence), this doesn’t make a lick of sense. I’d think you’re trolling if you weren’t so damn earnest. It actually makes me want to succeed in understanding you, even though I’m aware how badly it would effect my mental state to follow you into the dark unknown of that rabbit hole. 

I’m glad you’re excited about Howell. I hope he’s good enough that we never need to have conversations like this around here again. 

Edited January 25, 2023 by Conn

[Skinsinparadise]

6 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

Being one of the 8, I can personally say that I do think Heinicke provided a "spark" at first when he replaced Wentz. It might not necessarily have been a football related spark (it's not like he came out and started tossing 4 TDs per game or something), but more of a mental/emotional one that many teammates rallied around.

 

However, I think his deteriorating play over time sort of nullified that spark, which is why Ron decided to try another change.

 

Yeah I said the same at the time.  IMO part of it with Heinicke is he wasn't Wentz.  As I pointed out back then, Wentz besides not playing well played flat -- he came off emotionally flat and the offensive players almost seemed to match the mood of the QB.

 

Heinicke on the other hand plays with fire.  He brings oomph.  And I do think the personality infusion especially compared to Wentz brought some fun.  Wentz to me came off just drab and depressing.  Heinicke was far from that.  

 

But as a QB, Heinicke was lacking big time.  To use a baseball analogy and lets say the defense is the pitcher and the offense is Heinicke.  He can score 3 runs and the pitcher gave up 2 and we would sneak some victories with the defense leading the way.   And then some would say he's a "winner".   But heck the "winning" went out the window in both seasons in the home stretch where his normally below average play turned to awful. 

 

He will be 30 years old next season.  He has below average size.  he has a weak arm.  His accuracy is atrocious.  He is unwilling to use his legs to make plays.  And when the critical games happen towards the end of the season -- that's when he plays his worst ball. 

 

So for people here not giving credit for Heinicke.  I think I do where I feel he deserves it which is he has some juice to his personality.  And that quality really stood out versus Wentz who is the opposite on that front.  And while he's a bad QB overall.  He is lovable.  And he can make some big plays in key drives at the end of games -- but alas he doesn't do it in the big games with playoff implications on the line. 

 

I get some say every game has playoff implications because they all add up.  I get it but I disagree.  It's a different level of pressure playing the Colts in the middle of the season versus beating a division foe towards the end of the season where a win or loss changes the playoff fortunes of either team -- that game is higher stakes. 

 

The reason why i am out about the winner narrative about Heinicke is in the home stretches of the season both this year and last with the playoffs on the line he played his worst football save for the first half in SF.  And when some tout the first half of SF as Heinicke's best game, yet they only scored 7 points, I think says it all.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[KDawg]

Now we’re back to people needing to defend their “[REDACTED] isn’t good” takes. 
 

Like we’re too smooth brained to realize that even though he isn’t good, he has enough QB ability to combine with his like ability to create an emotional spark on a team where the major QB acquisition was a total flop.

 

Can we stop? Why even continue to have conversations about it if you don’t think he’s a good QB? 

Edited January 25, 2023 by KDawg

[Skinsinparadise]

3 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Now we’re back to people needing to defend their “[REDACTED] isn’t good” takes. 
 

Like we’re too smooth brained to realize that even though he isn’t good, he has enough QB ability to combine with his like ability to create an emotional spark on a team where the major QB acquisition was a total flop.

 

Can we stop? Why even continue to have conversations about it if you don’t think he’s a good QB? 

 

lol, good point.  It's while i've gone from being cool with him being the backup to now wanting him gone. 

 

It was interesting to hear Logan Paulsen talk about it from a player perspective -- and I was surprised players would care about this like fans -- but his point was the fact that Heinicke can elicit some passion even if its from a small group of fans its a reasons why he'd move on from him.  His point is you don't want drama including from fans driven by your backup QB.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Wyvern]

Sorry Logan Paulsen.  Washington's history has shown, time and time again, that unless their starting QB delivers consistently stellar performances and routine team wins -- a percentage of the fan base will start to press for the team's backup QB as a better option.

 

All it would take is a 3-pick game from Howell, and folks might start clamoring for Fromm or the vet backup, or the newly drafted QB, to have a chance at the helm.  And the sad part is Washington WILL need a reliable backup QB,  should Howell, during his learning process, exhibit flaws that opponents learn to regularly exploit.  And I don't think that's Fromm.

 

IMHO, the team can (and will) find a backup QB with a higher athletic ceiling than Heinicke, at least to better diversify what the offense could do. And frankly, the "moxie factor" may not play out for Heinicke in 2023 as more fans realize their need for a QB2 who can offer more than a fiercely competitive personality.  But as to avoiding "distractions", I think the QB1-QB2 squabbles amongst Washington's fans will still continue, especially should the team happen to lose a bunch of games.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Wyvern

[Skinsinparadise]

22 minutes ago, Wyvern said:

Sorry Logan Paulsen.  Washington's history has shown, time and time again, that unless their starting QB delivers consistently stellar performances and routine team wins -- a percentage of the fan base will start to press for the team's backup QB as a better option.

 

All it would take is a 3-pick game from Howell, and folks might start clamoring for Fromm or the vet backup, or the newly drafted QB, to have a chance at the helm.  And the sad part is Washington WILL need a reliable backup QB,  should Howell, during his learning process, exhibit flaws that opponents learn to regularly exploit.  And I don't think that's Fromm.

 

IMHO, the team can (and will) find a backup QB with a higher athletic ceiling than Heinicke, at least to better diversify what the offense could do. And frankly, the "moxie factor" may not play out for Heinicke 2023 as more fans realize the need for a QB2 who can offer more than a fiercely competitive personality.  But as to avoiding "distractions", I think the QB1-QB2 squabbles amongst the fans will still continue, especially should the team happen to lose a bunch of games.

 

I agree in general but Heinicke might be the most celebrated backup since Frerrote.  I've been to many games over many years and have seen many bad QBs.  I don't recall chanting in any of those games the way I did for Heinicke after freaking 3 throws from the starter.  That was surreal for me.  I'll never forget that game for that reason.  And I go to 2-3 games give a take a year for almost 20 years now.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

 

Outside of the quarterback, Washington’s roster is better positioned than it has been in previous seasons — on the field and in its search to find a play caller.

 

“I think this is a team that’s really not that far away,” Tannenbaum said.

Few teams boast a receiving trio like that of Terry McLaurin, Jahan Dotson and Curtis Samuel. Washington may have found a dynamic running back tandem in Brian Robinson Jr. and Antonio Gibson. Its defense has one of the top lines in the NFL, plus a young secondary with staples that include Kam Curl, Benjamin St-Juste and Darrick Forrest. And the special teams has been a consistent asset, thanks largely to punter Tress Way.

 

The Commanders, in many respects, have the makings of a team on the rise. But without an owner or a quarterback, the appeal of the OC job may be limited.

 

“You can still win games in this league playing a very high-level defense, running the football, having a quarterback that can make plays for you in specific game situations,” former NFL safety and current ESPN analyst Matt Bowen said. “But ultimately, based on how the league is played right now and the rules of the league, you need someone who can take over football games at that position to win a title if you want to be a consistent competitor. Doesn’t mean you can’t do it once. But if you want to be a consistent competitor year in and year out and battle for the division lead and consistently are in the playoffs and playing deep into January, you need someone that can take over games at that position.”

 

...Throughout the process, the Commanders have told candidates that Sam Howell is their starting quarterback going into organized team activities and training camp. The former fifth-round pick will still have to earn the job, but for now, the team’s thinking is that Howell will play a significant part in the 2023 plans.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2023/01/21/commanders-offensive-coordinator-search/

[redskinss]

10 hours ago, method man said:

 

Not sure where this misconception that Henicke is a pure Air Coryell guy comes from. Scott was a QB coach wherever he was with Taylor before they were in Washington together. While he was under Norv for 2015 and a part of 2016 in Minny and in 2018 in Carolina, he also spent time in the Josh McDaniels / Bill O'Brien system in 2017 across the Patriots and Texans and the Shurmur West Coast system in part of 2016 and through training camp in 2017 before getting cut. 

 

Given current veteran backups include the likes of John Wolford, Tim Boyle, Trevor Siemian, Kyle Allen, Brandon Allen, and Nick Mullens, Heinicke won't have an issue getting a job elsewhere.

It comes from the fact that although he's had a few very short stints with a couple other coaches he's  thrown exactly one nfl pass for someone without the last name turner.

It's not a deal breaker when a quarterback doesn't know your system, teams bring in guys and teach them all the time but when you start to add up the reasons not to bring in heinicke its just another one.

The fact that we wouldn't even know who taylor heinicke is had he not known turners system is a testament that it can be a factor in getting a chance to be a backup and I doubt those few times he got a couple months in anybody else's are going to be a factor in getting him employment next year.

 

I do think he has a shot though, I agree there are some pretty sketchy backups around the league and somebody might take a chance on that heinicke magic I just wouldn't bank on it myself. 

 

[Bifflog]

8 hours ago, Conn said:

 

...group of posters here that have never in their lives seen a piece of bait they were capable of ignoring...

 

What is everyone in this thread, Alex?

 

[88Comrade2000]

 Who cares about the soon to be cut Wentz and free agent Heini. Neither are returning.  Time to speculate on what veteran they get to compete with Sam.

[skinsfan66]

7 hours ago, tmandoug1 said:

Technically not all was true...

Marcus Marriotta

Matt Ryan

Malik Willis

Mike White

Davis Mills

Baker Mayfield

Zach Wilson

And lo and behold Carson Wentz were suckier this year according to the almighty internet.

 

This is still fun though...right guys?

Sometimes the internet get's it right, can a case be made that Wentz played better than any of those above? But could you make a case for Taylor?  What do the golden PFF no's say? And who cares anyway? Fact is Wentz backers have nothing to compare and would if they did, Why post when you know the results already?  At 28Mil. and 2/3rd. rd. draft picks later and 1 could have been a 2nd. If not for Taylor@ 5Mil.  Biggest win of year in Philly stopped undefeated season, Taylor was a big reason he helped move the chains on 3rd down all day long. To that point we did not know what a 3rd down conversion was with the Golden boy. But you say he had nothing to do with the wins? I say he did not get sacked 9 times at home with the same team against Eagles.  He will be in the NFL next year, not the USFL because his play says so. He played with the same team, same OL,same Coach around him as Fitz, Wentz,. Fitz played just as bad as Wentz too, WHY? Taylor just played better than big $ castoffs with the same team.  Maybe playoffs with any blocking at own goal line against Giants too, but Taylor lost them games.  It's not a match that's why they do not compare. 3 years Taylor>Wentz,Fitz..... Good backup who earned his money unlike the castoffs who did nothing but hurt the team cap and draft picks.  Here is hoping Howell makes it on his rookie contract and we do not sign anymore castoffs.

[Conn]

There are no “Wentz backers” here. Possibly in the entire world. Watching his confidence crumble, I’m not sure Wentz is even a “Wentz backer”. 

Edited January 25, 2023 by Conn

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, skinsfan66 said:

Sometimes the internet get's it right, can a case be made that Wentz played better than any of those above? But could you make a case for Taylor?  What do the golden PFF no's say? And who cares anyway? Fact is Wentz backers have nothing to compare and would if they did, Why post when you know the results already?  At 28Mil. and 2/3rd. rd. draft picks later and 1 could have been a 2nd. If not for Taylor@ 5Mil.  Biggest win of year in Philly stopped undefeated season, Taylor was a big reason he helped move the chains on 3rd down all day long. To that point we did not know what a 3rd down conversion was with the Golden boy. But you say he had nothing to do with the wins? I say he did not get sacked 9 times at home with the same team against Eagles.  He will be in the NFL next year, not the USFL because his play says so. He played with the same team, same OL,same Coach around him as Fitz, Wentz,. Fitz played just as bad as Wentz too, WHY? Taylor just played better than big $ castoffs with the same team.  Maybe playoffs with any blocking at own goal line against Giants too, but Taylor lost them games.  It's not a match that's why they do not compare. 3 years Taylor>Wentz,Fitz..... Good backup who earned his money unlike the castoffs who did nothing but hurt the team cap and draft picks.  Here is hoping Howell makes it on his rookie contract and we do not sign anymore castoffs.

 

Wentz backers?

 

NONE OF THOSE EXIST.

 

Why are we even continuing this? It's over. [REDACTED] and Wentz are gone. Move on. Between this and the name change and the last time we are relevant we are always looking in the rearview as a fanbase.

 

Move forward.

[Skinsinparadise]

4 minutes ago, Conn said:

There are no “Wentz backers” here. Possibly in the entire world. Watching his confidence crumble, I’m not sure Wentz is even a “Wentz backer”. 

 

there might be one left, just spit balling on this but wouldn't surprise me since he supposedly never likes to admit he's wrong.

 

https://www.hogshaven.com/2022/8/11/23301849/dan-snyder-we-finally-have-ourselves-a-qb-fedex-field-will-have-big

 

Dan Snyder: We finally have ourselves a QB, FedEx Field will have big-time attendance shortly

[mistertim]

Yeah can we stop with this bull**** strawman about "Wentz supporters"? They don't exist. Everyone realizes he sucked and it was a mistake to bring him in. Stop trying to manufacture fake ass controversies so you all can continue to blab and whine about He Who Must Not Be Named.

 

[Koolblue13]