The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randal 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariota and Fromm battle for QB2 and so begins the Handsome Harem for Hartman

[Skinsinparadise]

17 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

It doesn't really matter for my point.

 

We've had high draft choices and went elsewhere is more my point. And although the rumor is we'd go QB, if we're picking third and 1 and 2 both go QB... are we going QB?

 

Portis said it well once which is they haven't picked high enough (top 3 or so) typically in the first round and implied when they have had it -- it was the wrong year for the top QB.  Granted they could have taken Herbert but this FO wasn't the only FO that missed on him.  Supposedly according to reporters they loved Burrow and loved Murray but both guys were out of reach.

 

This draft is an odd one.  I like Corral but is he a bonafide top pick in the draft type QB, not sure?  But if he keeps playing like this, if the Lions end up with the top pick in the draft they will probably take him anyway. 

 

I am guessing all the others will have kind of the Mac Jones stamp on them as for some FOs thinking maybe he's the guy but they aren't convinced enough to take them really high with lets say #2 pick for example. 

 

So I am guessing they can try to ferret out among Pickett, Howell, (Willis -- though he might go high), Strong, etc.  I wouldn't reach for any of them though so if they are picking 5-8, I am not sure i'd take one outside of maybe Willis for his upside.  

 

The veteran market is tough.  I am not hyped about trying a reclamation project but if I did, I'd want a younger guy with mobility ala Mariota or Trubisky but it feels tough to gamble on that.   Maybe a reclamation project AND a prospect.  And see who prevails?

 

 

Edited October 21, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

15 minutes ago, KDawg said:

if we're picking third and 1 and 2 both go QB... are we going QB?

Kyle Hamilton

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Portis said it well once which is they haven't picked high enough (top 3 or so) typically in the first round and implied when they have had it -- it was the wrong year for the top QB.  Granted they could have taken Herbert but this FO wasn't the only FO that missed on him.  Supposedly according to reporters they loved Burrow and loved Murray but both guys were out of reach.

 

This draft is an odd one.  I like Corral but is he a bonafide top pick in the draft type QB, not sure?  But if he keeps playing like this, if the Lions end up with the top pick in the draft they will probably take him anyway. 

 

I am guessing all the others will have kind of the Mac Jones stamp on them as for some FOs thinking maybe he's the guy but they aren't convinced enough to take them really high with lets say #2 pick for example. 

 

So I am guessing they can try to ferret out among Pickett, Howell, (Willis -- thoiugh he might go high), Strong, etc.  I wouldn't reach for any of them though so if they are picking 5-8, I am not sure i'd take one outside of maybe Willis for his upside.  

 

The veteran market is tough.  I am not hyped about trying a reclamation project but if I did, I'd want a younger guy with mobility ala Mariota or Trubisky but it feels tough to gamble on that.   Maybe a reclamation project AND a prospect.  And see who prevails?

 

 

I’d double up with a prospect and a reclamation project for sure. With Heinicke as third.

[Skinsinparadise]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I’d double up with a prospect and a reclamation project for sure. With Heinicke as third.

 

It might be the only shot.  If you want a chance at the lottery double down on the draft and reclamation project.  I don't see a veteran hitting the market who is willing to come here that's attractive.  Some say Derrick Carr but why would a new coaching staff want to dump him?  He's having a career year and the Raiders will unlikely have a high pick to replace him.  

[Renegade7]

14 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I assure you I’m not Tua’s agent.

 

Preference beyond rookies and dream scenarios:

 

1) Tua

2) Trubisky

3) Bridgewater

4) Fitz

5) Winston

 

Also, I’ve been saying that Tu’a isn’t a sure thing in every post. If you’re going to attack me for my opinions at least try to keep them accurate.

 

I haven't mischaracterized you at all, you've repeatedly stumped for Tu'a trying to make the case for his upside over other options presented based on what he did in college, not the pros.  Theres no need to try and belittle people that disagree with you, it doesn't help your case at all.

[KDawg]

Just now, Renegade7 said:

 

I haven't mischaracterized you at all, you've repeatedly stumped for Tu'a trying to make the case for his upside over other options presented based on what he did in college, not the pros.  Theres no need to try and belittle people that disagree with you, it doesn't help your case at all.

I have not once tried to belittle you, and nor would I. Another mischaracterization. 
 

This is the correct take on my stance: potential vs. cost vs. commitment.

 

But, to be clear, if his cost is higher than a 3 that throws that equation well out of whack and changes my Tu’a stance quite a bit. 
 

Should his price increase from a 3 (all conjecture anyways) I’d prefer Trubisky as the stop gap/see what you have guy.

 

But one of the reasons I’d like Tu’a is we’d get a trial period for a few weeks this season which allow us to cut bait in the offseason if needed.

[Chump Bailey]

I've not looked at all of the QB's that might be available to us in the draft but I do like what I see from Cincinnati QB Desmond Ridder. 

[Renegade7]

5 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

But one of the reasons I’d like Tu’a is we’d get a trial period for a few weeks this season which allow us to cut bait in the offseason if needed.

 

Wait so you want to give him half a season in an offense he's never played in before to prove hes worth keeping, and essentially throwing away a third round pick if he's not?  Thats a worse plan than I thought you had, I figured you wanted to at least give him into next season to make his case. 

 

That sounds like a high probability of throwing away a third round pick when we need all the picks we can get for the rebuild, I get your potential arguement, but not at the high risk of wasting a third round pick.  We can get similar potential without risking a draft pick like that. Pass.

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Wait so you want to give him half a season in an offense he's never played in before to prove hes worth keeping, and essentially throwing away a third round pick if he's not?  Thats a worse plan than I thought you had, I figured you wanted to at least give him into next season to make his case. 

 

That sounds like a high probability of throwing away a third round pick when we need all the picks we can get for the rebuild, I get your potential arguement, but not at the high risk of wasting a third round pick.  We can get similar potential without risking a draft pick like that. Pass.

No. But talking this through to you is an exercise in frustration. More than I feel when watching this team play. So I’m done with it for the day with you and we can pick this up tomorrow or whenever else we cross paths on our opinions.

[El Mexican]

1 hour ago, PartyPosse said:

RG 3.2?

 

RG33⅓: The Final Insult.

Edited October 21, 2021 by El Mexican

[profusion]

When discussing franchise QBs, people tend to focus too much on the "QB" part and not enough on the "franchise" part.

 

If Rodgers or Brady had been drafted by the Jets, they'd be long forgotten now.

 

The WFT absolutely need to draft a QB soon (doesn't have to be next year, but probably no later than the year after). However, it's not that simple. Before successfully drafting anyone, the team will have to have scouts and decisionmakers on the same page and adhering to an overall offensive philosophy that allows them to pick the right guy (not necessarily the "best" guy) and then develop him in a productive environment. Don't expect to draft a guy at the top and then have him magically clean up this mess of a franchise with his brilliance.

 

The Ryan Tannehill strategy only works if the team is already playoff-ready and just in need of decent QB play, like the Titans were. The WFT isn't even in that same neighborhood. Don't get someone else's castoff. 

 

My main concern is that the WFT is still a mess in the front office. What's the scouting org like? Should Ron be making the calls? Is Dan actually not butting in? In that environment, I'm not sure it matters, unfortunately.

Edited October 21, 2021 by profusion

[philibusters]

Interesting hypo about Rodgers or Brady getting drafted by weak organizations (for what its worth the Jets were decent back in 2000 when Brady was drafted and respectable in 2005 when Rodgers was drafted--but I get your larger point).

 

I think both would have done okay but neither would have reached the heights that they did.   Perhaps Rodgers has a Matthew Stafford type career where he puts up solid numbers but is only on a couple winning teams and is underappeciated.   Perhaps Brady, probably the best game manager of all time, has a Philip Rivers type career.  Who knows

[skins island connection]

It'll take alot more than a good QB to get things headed in the right direction.

Nothing ill towards Rivera, but he's not exactly an offense-minded coach, and Turner, well, you know. 

 

Lets face it, this fan base would turn on Brady if he had a rough 3-4 game stretch, so we know what will happen with someone like Tua. 

Then add in Snyder's influence/meddling/ sticking his nose where it doesn't belong and he'll end up pushing for some flashy guy who had 1 good game in college. 

 

I just don't know where to start, and I doubt the organization does either...

[slinky]

5 hours ago, slinky said:

Trade Chase for Tua

 

Those that gave me thumbs down 👎 didn't realize I meant Chase Roullier.

 

 

Edited October 22, 2021 by slinky

[Nerm]

11 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

If that is a temporary thing that is a function of him healing from that injury, maybe I'd buy in.  But if that's him now, while I don't hate it, he's not any player I get excited about.  The reason why I wouldn't hate it like I did with the talk about trading for Rosen and Darnold is Tua to my eyes doesn't have their fatal flaw which is IMO poor decision making.  Tua from what I've seen is not a bad decision maker like IMO Rosen and Darnold are. 

 

I agree that the possibility of Tua still being in the process of healing is something to consider.  I remember when Troy Aikman first went into broadcasting, if a QB in the game was coming back from a lower body injury, he would make a big deal about how that can make them really struggle with velocity and deep passes.  Aikman talks about breaking his leg in college, and coming back from the injury.  He always had a great arm, but when he first came back, he couldn't throw with velocity at all.  There was a huge adjustment trying to practice or play with a below average "arm", compared to what he was used to.  He says that until he had to focus on building up leg strength above what it was pre-injury before he got his "arm" back.

 

Could be that Tua will have a better arm once he is further away from his injury.  Also very possible that this is who he is at this point.

[Warhead36]

1 hour ago, slinky said:

 

Those that gave me thumbs down 👎 didn't realize I meant Chase Roullier.

 

 

I wouldn't trade Roullier for Tua either. Tua stinks. Roullier is a top 10 C.

[Skinsinparadise]

It doesn't have to be one unit but not the other.  Both are ideal.  But I agree you need that QB.  Stating the obvious, just blowing off some steam.   Denver should have IMO drafted Fields. 

 

 

 

58 minutes ago, Nerm said:

 

I agree that the possibility of Tua still being in the process of healing is something to consider.  I remember when Troy Aikman first went into broadcasting, if a QB in the game was coming back from a lower body injury, he would make a big deal about how that can make them really struggle with velocity and deep passes.  Aikman talks about breaking his leg in college, and coming back from the injury.  He always had a great arm, but when he first came back, he couldn't throw with velocity at all.  There was a huge adjustment trying to practice or play with a below average "arm", compared to what he was used to.  He says that until he had to focus on building up leg strength above what it was pre-injury before he got his "arm" back.

 

Could be that Tua will have a better arm once he is further away from his injury.  Also very possible that this is who he is at this point.

 

Could be.  It's just a theory from me.  But having watched most of Tua's games and some in person both as for college and the NFL, I don't recall having the impression that he strained to throw the ball down the field in college.  Now I do.  So maybe that hip injury explains it. 

Edited October 22, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, profusion said:

When discussing franchise QBs, people tend to focus too much on the "QB" part and not enough on the "franchise" part.

 

If Rodgers or Brady had been drafted by the Jets, they'd be long forgotten now.

 

 

I get the point but I think the "franchise" part is sometimes overstated, too.  Yeah I do think Brady would be a good QB with the Jets, just not as good. 

 

Herbert killed it as a rookie not IMO because he was blessed to be coached by Anthony Lynn, and the Chargers are just winners.  Joe Burrow is now looking good even though Cincy in known as a dumpster fire.

 

Jared Goff was supposedly "fixed' by McVay but doesn't look that way anymore.

 

IMO you want QBs who have talent and special drive-leadership.  The franchise part is important but IMO not the key ingredient in the soup. It helps though, I agree.

 

Heck you can even look at this dumpster fire organization, our glimpses of success happened with rare good QB play.  2015-2016.  First half of 2018.  Heck when we had really good QB play in 2012, it was the one magical season ironically under Dan.

Edited October 22, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

You just have to keep firing bullets until you get it fixed. Our reluctance to take a chance at QB or trade up for one to this point has been a little frustrating, but I think the FO needs one more year of a leash on it. 
 

I was hoping that we would build a strong core/culture that a vet QB would want to step into this offseason. Unfortunately, we look like a clueless mess so I think that ship has sailed. 
 

I think we are closer to another regime change than we are to finding a franchise QB. Product vs. expectations this season has been a ****ing joke. We are once again in the weeds with no end in sight.

[Thinking Skins]

When I liked Josh Allen it was because he had three things about him arm, size and mobility. It's weird because I never really like to go after QBs early because these things are such poor predictors. But the thing that I'm seeing is that when you have a QB that doesn't have one of these three things, you're normally looking for a new QB sooner or later. 

 

But I'm in line with what Ron said this off-season, I just wish he had drafted a thing guy to challenge or develop. I know we had Montez, but he was a pipe dream. I really wanted to sign somebody on day 2 or 3 and hope they could say least be number 3 behind Fitz and Allen/ Heinicke. 

 

That's where I'd go this year. If a top guy falls to us, is take him. Seems like Corral and Willis are the two top guys on my board but only one in the first is Corral. I guess I could go for Howell but the comp I've seen for him is Baker. It's funny because I read the scouting report and think Taylor or Russell Wilson but the comp they give is Baker. Interesting and scary.

[RWJ]

There is a QB that is playing for the NE Patriots that I really wanted us to draft.  

[Peregrine]

I feel like this is definitely overblown right now.  The fundamental problem with this team isnt QB, its that the defense is awful.  If we went and got a top QB, the defense would still be awful, and we would simply improve to missing the playoffs, instead of badly missing the playoffs.

 

A top QB doesnt fix the problem of paying out 3 huge contracts to secondary players who are your worst performers on the team.  Of course having a top QB would be a huge deal, but until this team gets to the point it can actually compete year in and year out having a top QB would just help us tread water.  We still wouldnt do anything.

[Skinsinparadise]

Rivera addressed the Tua thing directly this morning.  They are not interested.  He referred to any rumors that suggest otherwise are just people making it up, probably to drum up interest in the player. 

 

He was about as definitive as it gets.  

Edited October 22, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

9 hours ago, RWJ said:

There is a QB that is playing for the NE Patriots that I really wanted us to draft.  

 

I'll take credit for putting the more descriptive pro Mac Jones propaganda on the draft thread, talked about him probably more than any player in the off season, and took some arrows defending him on that thread.     I liked him.  I wanted him if he fell at 19.  But you and another dude i am forgetting dude, loved him.   I liked him a lot but didn't love.  The dude I loved was Justin Fields.  Will see how it all unfolds. 

 

Oh well.  It is what it is.  According to one reporter, they did like Jones but weren't willing to trade up for him.  Interesting to learn later that Mike Shanahan and Sean Payton really liked Mac -- both dudes know offense.

[Koolblue13]

I liked and wanted Mac, but only if we didn't have to go crazy for him.