The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[mistertim]

2 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

Right. Its almost inconceivable when you watch the entire game. And then he makes it look this easy. Its kinda annoying lol 

 

It's like a girlfriend who treats you like **** 95% of the time but you stay with her because every once in a while she randomly manages to bring in another girl for a threesome just when you're about to leave her.

[Llevron]

Just now, mistertim said:

 

It's like a girlfriend who treats you like **** 95% of the time but you stay with her because every once in a while she randomly manages to bring in another girl for a threesome just when you're about to leave her.

 

You have lived a charmed life, sir lol 

[zCommander]

18 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

No idea how he rolls left and makes that miracle throw to Samuel, yet is wildly off on so many others.  Dude really does have the juice or a rabbits foot in these situations.  That’s an elite throw.

 

He made a similar throw last year in the Tampa game to Bates? and it was also 4th and something and he was running towards his left as well. 

[Skinsinparadise]

14 minutes ago, wit33 said:

I imagine he’d tell you he’s been hearing this his whole football life lol 

 

Heinicke comes off pretty humble in in his interviews and self deprecating at times.  He jokes about the 6 foot thing is BS and he's shorter than that but its nice that he's listed taller.  JP Finlay said he ran into Heinicke last week and Heinicke told him he needs to play better. 

[Cooleyfan1993]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Heinicke comes off pretty humble in in his interviews and self deprecating at times.  He jokes about the 6 foot thing is BS and he's shorter than that but its nice that he's listed taller.  JP Finlay said he ran into Heinicke last week and Heinicke told him he needs to play better. 

Wait wait wait……………

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

JP Finlay plays football??  

[mistertim]

11 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

He made a similar throw last year in the Tampa game to Bates? and it was also 4th and something and he was running towards his left as well. 

 

I think the solution is clear. We should always play from behind and always kneel on 1st, 2nd, and 3rd down.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Heinicke comes off pretty humble in in his interviews and self deprecating at times.  He jokes about the 6 foot thing is BS and he's shorter than that but it’s nice that he's listed taller.  JP Finlay said he ran into Heinicke last week and Heinicke told him he needs to play better. 

I’ve always been under the impression that he’s more realistic about his play, than his biggest fans are.

 

If only, he could convince himself to look for opportunities to run.

[wit33]

2 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

This is true, but it’s a big gamble.  Because his hair was still on fire afterwards and was lucky to not get picked multiple times.

I like when Turner exposes him to hurry up/no huddle in less stressful situations. To my eye, he becomes “that dude” in these situations and when in best position to actually impact a game at a higher level. 

[Spaceman Spiff]

2 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

And I apologize for putting out a counterpoint to a number you posted.

 

Look, nobody is taking away the great 4th down pass or the drive to tie the game. But the idea that Heinicke had an overall good game is just not realistic. Our offense was anemic and scored 3 points after the 1st quarter. Then he almost threw two picks on the drive after the tying one. Then the coaches obviously didn't have confidence in him passing and played super conservative on the ground. The QBR seems to reflect a lot of that.

Your apology is accepted. 
 

I know you hate to hear it but Wentz throws more bad passes than Heinicke.

[wit33]

17 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Heinicke comes off pretty humble in in his interviews and self deprecating at times.  He jokes about the 6 foot thing is BS and he's shorter than that but its nice that he's listed taller.  JP Finlay said he ran into Heinicke last week and Heinicke told him he needs to play better. 

Yup, humble mixed in with some FU in my opinion. 

[mistertim]

3 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

Your apology is accepted. 
 

I know you hate to hear it but Wentz throws more bad passes than Heinicke.

 

I don't give two ****s about Wentz one way or the other. I had some hope that we'd be better based on his upside, but that didn't seem to work out. I had no dog in that race. I actually was against bringing in Wentz originally.

 

So whatever you say about Wentz is irrelevant to me.

 

We have some really good pieces on the team and a below average QB. That needs to be addressed, and the coaches seem to have been in agreement. I just don't know how the **** we're going to address it, unless we get lucky and Howell is a late round gem. 

Edited December 5, 2022 by mistertim

[Skinsinparadise]

9 minutes ago, wit33 said:

Yup, humble mixed in with some FU in my opinion. 

 

I've read or heard different times him joking about he's not 6 foot, joking about his "noodle arm" multiple times, a couple of times I recall him telling reporters he needs to play better and lamenting about miss opportunities. 

 

You've argued with me in the past about whether there is a "clutch gene" you suggesting there is not.  but it seems like you make an exception for Heinicke on the point?

 

Personally I think some dudes are indeed better in the clutch.  Sports psychologists have said some players focus and relax a bit more in tighter spots whereas some others tighten up and get weighted down by the moment.  Wentz by reputation gets tight.  Heinicke seems to relax and play his best ball at those times.   I joke with my son, who is a big Heinicke guy when watching the games that they need to convince Heinicke its the end of the game from snap one. 

 

My impression is Heinicke has very little bravado about him.  He comes off more chill and it not afraid to fail.

Edited December 5, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Spaceman Spiff]

If anyone here starts talking about how we should look into Baker Mayfield, I hope they have a bad case of diarrhea. 

[Warhead36]

4 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

If anyone here starts talking about how we should look into Baker Mayfield, I hope they have a bad case of diarrhea. 

I will admit in the off season I would have went for Mayfield for sure.

 

But now? Heck na. He's legitimately worse than Heinicke. Heck he's legitimately worse than Wentz "lolol"

[mistertim]

2 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I will admit in the off season I would have went for Mayfield for sure.

 

But now? Heck na. He's legitimately worse than Heinicke. Heck he's legitimately worse than Wentz "lolol"

 

Yeah I wouldn't have been against bringing Mayfield in for a low price (which is exactly what he fetched) to see how he'd do. Though now it's clear that things are going poorly for him. Yeah his supporting cast was pretty awful, but he wasn't very good either and then he got injured again and couldn't take the job back from PJ Walker.

[Warhead36]

Veteran QBs that switched teams this past offseason:

 

Mayfield-Cut

 

Trebisky-Benched

 

Wentz-Benched/injured

 

Wilson-Legitimate case for worst starting QB in the league

 

Watson-Suspended. Looked horrendous in his first game back.

 

 

The vet QB is not a well you want to dip into. You're almost better off just taking a shot at an rookie. Even if he stinks, at least he's cheap and young and can potentially get better.

[Ball Security]

22 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Yeah I wouldn't have been against bringing Mayfield in for a low price (which is exactly what he fetched) to see how he'd do. Though now it's clear that things are going poorly for him. Yeah his supporting cast was pretty awful, but he wasn't very good either and then he got injured again and couldn't take the job back from PJ Walker.

I didn’t realize how much salary Cleveland ate on that trade and how little they got back after eating $10M.

I didn’t watch him at all this year.  It looked like he played uneven in his first four games.  Lost on a 58 yard FG to Cleveland after driving them to the go ahead score with 77 seconds left.  Ended up 1-3.  Threw a pick six against SF and got hurt.  Came back against Baltimore and couldn’t do much of anything.  Ended up throwing two picks in the fourth after they fell down two scores after a WR fumble.  Then he got benched for Darnold.

 

Rivera should do his due diligence with his Carolina sources to see what the deal is with him.    He had success with a stout run game which we can provide.  The narrative is that he’s a jerk.  Which may be true, but could also be media embellishment.

Edited December 5, 2022 by Ball Security

[HigSkin]

39 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

If anyone here starts talking about how we should look into Baker Mayfield, I hope they have a bad case of diarrhea. 

 

Watch Shanahan pick him up...

[Cooleyfan1993]

52 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

If anyone here starts talking about how we should look into Baker Mayfield, I hope they have a bad case of diarrhea. 

………*casually hits backspace on the post I was about to hit “enter” on

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

30 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Veteran QBs that switched teams this past offseason:

 

Mayfield-Cut

 

Trebisky-Benched

 

Wentz-Benched/injured

 

Wilson-Legitimate case for worst starting QB in the league

 

Watson-Suspended. Looked horrendous in his first game back.

 

 

The vet QB is not a well you want to dip into. You're almost better off just taking a shot at a rookie. Even if he stinks, at least he's cheap and young and can potentially get better.

As opposed to every one of those guys stinking, it shows how important fit and stability is.

 

We know all too well the struggles of acquiring talent that looked good elsewhere, only to not meet that same bar here.

[skinny21]

5 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

It was the quintessential Heinicke game.  Generally stunk for the majority of the game with late game moxie heroics, and a bunch of danger balls.  The only reason I lean more to the loss side is that he was spraying it so bad after the GTD, that the staff made him hand it off on 3rd and 10 and play for the tie.  That said a lot to me about their belief in him.

I sort of agree, sort of disagree with your points (though I think they’re fair overall).

 

Generally agree about it being a quintessential type of game for him, except - he didn’t throw a pick (but threw 2 tds - even if they were both more about the receiver than the throw), dropped back significantly more than usual, and upped his completion percentage (while dealing with even worse pass pro).  Feel like he’s been a bit better this year in general at not sailing balls (still plenty of innacurate ones though), but this issue popped up again akin to the first part of last year… which I think makes some sense given the duress he was under.  To expand on that, I think his mechanics have been a touch better this year (I could be wrong though), but that (probably minor) improvement, somewhat understandably, went out the window at times this game.

 

You may be right about the staff not trusting him, but I can’t ignore the horrible pass pro when looking at what was already a low percentage chance.  For me, it kind of goes hand in hand with why we’ve turned to a run heavy offense - one can make the argument it’s all about keeping the ball out of Taylor’s hands, but I think it’s also fair to question how much of this has to do with a suspect line (most poor olines operate better running the ball), and a defense that seems to perform better when we’re not pass happy.  IMO, it’s a blend of all those things, though I couldn’t break it down by percentages or anything - maybe it is 70% Taylor, maybe it’s 30%, I don’t know.  I’m tempted here to bring up that they made the shift to this style of offense under Wentz, but I can’t say if that was in part due to Wentz’ injury.

 

Back to that specific 3rd down play - prior to that, on the game tying drive, I didn’t understand why they had him passing so much (it does imply some level of trust though, no?).  I would have thought moving the chains and running down the clock on our way to trying to tie the game was the way to go - make sure the Giants don’t have much time on the clock for a game winning FG.  Not to mention the Giants were getting a lot of pressure, had already forced sacks, a fumble (and barely missed getting a 2nd), and were sitting on the shorter routes.  Putting the onus on Taylor, in an obvious passing situation, knowing the short stuff was risky and the time needed on a longer throw might easily lead to a sack (better field position for the Giants) or fumble… I think they played the odds.

 

I’m not arguing they have a ton of confidence in him or that it’s unfair to believe they didn’t trust him in that situation, just that their decision-making might not have been solely about him on the 3rd and 10.

 

 

Backing out again to the macro… what kind of play calling do we see with a good qb (say Aaron Rodgers) when dealing with an oline that struggles to pass protect?  Usually, you’d expect a fairly heavy dose of run, with mostly quick passes (particularly to the perimeter) and screens, and occasional shots down field (likely with extra guys in pass pro).  If your qb is getting the ball out quickly, but still facing a lot of pressure/hits, you’d expect even more of a focus on the run game.  And if your run game is having success, that’s even further incentive to lean on it.  Seems to me this is exactly what we’re doing.  Now obviously Taylor isn’t in the same stratosphere as Rodgers, and it’s easy/fair to make the argument that the real difference maker for us (in terms of winning games) is how the defense is playing, but I have trouble looking at our situation and attributing the offensive style purely to Taylor’s limitations.  Could it be mostly about Taylor?  Yep, absolutely.  Could the pass pro issues, success of the run game and how our defense is playing (particularly when the offense burns clock) be the larger factors?  I’d say it’s certainly possible.

 

I know this isn’t Turner’s preferred style of offense - we saw what he wants to do when Wentz was under center.  Of course, as our oline fell apart, that style became untenable.  Yes, the oline improved a bit (particularly when Martin was replaced), but they’re still been allowing a lot of pressure, which is particularly egregious given how fast (generally) Heinicke’s been getting the ball out.  And of course, the ‘new’ style has been working (to some extent anyway), so that’s further reason not to go back to Turner’s preferred style.  I think most agree that even if Wentz regains the starting gig, we’d still want to maintain this iteration of the offense, which implies most feel it’s more about the pass pro than the qb deficiencies… even if some believe Wentz might give us a better shot at the success in the deeper game (and/or off PA, or just the pass game overall).

[TradeTheBeal!]

1 hour ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

If anyone here starts talking about how we should look into Baker Mayfield, I hope they have a bad case of diarrhea. 

We should absolutely look into Baker Mayfield.  Kid has moxie for miles.

 

*farts loudly*

[skinny21]

1 hour ago, wit33 said:

I like when Turner exposes him to hurry up/no huddle in less stressful situations. To my eye, he becomes “that dude” in these situations and when in best position to actually impact a game at a higher level. 

I remember thinking a similar thing about RGIII (and some other qbs at times).  Taking away a qb’s time to really think about a play can be helpful at times.

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

If anyone here starts talking about how we should look into Baker Mayfield, I hope they have a bad case of diarrhea. 

That would ensure that said person would be stuck on the toilet, phone in hand, continuing to spray nonsense.

[wit33]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I've read or heard different times him joking about he's not 6 foot, joking about his "noodle arm" multiple times, a couple of times I recall him telling reporters he needs to play better and lamenting about miss opportunities. 
 

 

I haven’t caught these exchanges myself, but it aligns with some of my assumptions as to how he’s wired. Seems like a guy who explores all paths that lead to radical responsibility in all situations. 
 

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

You've argued with me in the past about whether there is a "clutch gene" you suggesting there is not.  but it seems like you make an exception for Heinicke on the point?

 

I believe it’s way overblown and most we consider to be clutch are much closer to the mean than what is shoved down our throats by media. 
 

I agree there’s guys who overall manage their psychological better than others. My position is if a guy struggles in the clutch you can find similar struggles in the first quarter. 

 

“Clutch situations” (such a loaded term) often require players to excel in low percentage situations overall and most, even what consider all time greats are closer to average than what we believe. Often times the clutch situation puts the QB in position of being the OC, managing chaos, and clinging to improvisation. For Heineke these clutch situations align with his football truths/inclinations (from what I’ve read and highlights watched in college), so a large part of him succeeding in these moments are directly related tangible skill. 
 

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Personally I think some dudes are indeed better in the clutch.  Sports psychologists have said some players focus and relax a bit more in tighter spots whereas some others tighten up and get weighted down by the moment.  Wentz by reputation gets tight.  Heinicke seems to relax and play his best ball at those times.   I joke with my son, who is a big Heinicke guy when watching the games that they need to convince Heinicke its the end of the game from snap one. 
 

 

I don’t totally dismiss idea some perform better in the clutch, but it’s no surprise it’s often the ones who do well in 1st quarter as well. 
 

Lol… I 100% agree with what you share with your son. He probably throws 20 picks, but throws 40 tds (joking … or am I). 
 

This current version of Turner providing Heineke opportunities to operate with no huddle situationally might assist with getting him to an average level. He really seems to be in great command and comfortable when playing with pace. To Turners credit he does implement this element here and there. 
 

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

My impression is Heinicke has very little bravado about him.  He comes off more chill and it not afraid to fail.

 

He’d be delusional if he had bravado in an NFL locker room. 

He strikes me as more fiery competitor than cool, calm and collected on the field. 

52 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Veteran QBs that switched teams this past offseason:

 

Mayfield-Cut

 

Trebisky-Benched

 

Wentz-Benched/injured

 

Wilson-Legitimate case for worst starting QB in the league

 

Watson-Suspended. Looked horrendous in his first game back.

 

 

The vet QB is not a well you want to dip into. You're almost better off just taking a shot at an rookie. Even if he stinks, at least he's cheap and young and can potentially get better.

The “potentially get better” is piece often missing in QB discussions. You tie yourself to a middling QB for 2-3 years you’re missing out on trying to find other QBs. Teams will often take 4-7th round picks to develop behind a middling QB just to not offend them. No, I want my team to draft a 1st or 2nd round guy if they love him, even if the starting QB is making $40mil, but you can’t because you don’t want to offend the overpaid middling QB. Yuck. 

Edited December 5, 2022 by wit33