The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Ball Security]

2 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

Oh god, Jason Garrett just said on the SNF Halftime Show that Brock Purdy has MOXIE!

Two first rounders should get it done.

10 minutes ago, SkinsFTW said:

 

Ryan Mallet was projected to go much higher as well. 

Cocaine is a helluva drug.

[zCommander]

4 minutes ago, SkinsFTW said:

 

No I don't watch any of that stuff. I was just pointing out that projection doesn't mean anything. If he was actually that great, he'd have gone in the 1st. Maybe it's just the height but he'd have to be the next Drew Brees to make up for that. 

 

No I get that. This year draft was loaded with other positions instead and the QB class was meh. So Howell dropping wasn't too surprising. I liked it when he got him though since he stood out to me more than other QBs on throwing abilities. 

[Warhead36]

4 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

I would take literally all of those over Taylor and I hate Mac as an option. 

I'd probably take Tannehill but that's it. In all honesty there likely isn't much discernible difference between any of them. 

 

Basically this year you either have a tier 1 or tier 2 QB or you have someone who's mostly average but also can be quite doo doo.

[Going Commando]

3 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

So you honest to god think that Heinicke is the main reason this team has turned around? Despite how limited they clearly are keeping his role when it comes to the game plan?

 

Also, I think we should find out exactly how you define a "hot QB"

 

Is it any QB who is on a winning team, or is it a QB who's actually lighting it up on the field? If it's the former, then sure, Heinicke is a "hot QB." If it's the latter, he's definitely not.

 

The dude saved our season.  He is absolutely one of key reasons for our turnaround.  What other big personnel changes did we make that you think turned our season around?  Trading away Williams Jackson?

 

Yes, a QB who is 5-1-1 as the starter is a hot QB.  Especially when the team was 2-4 with the previous guy.  Where is this narrative that we're winning in spite of Heinicke coming from?  Because this team is so good they could win with anyone? (except Carson Wentz)  Committing to the run, avoiding penalties, being efficient on third downs, and playing good defense isn't some special strategy you enact when you think your QB sucks.  It's just playing good football.  And when the team didn't play well today and got a ton of penalties and the run game wasn't an option for most of the situations we found ourselves in, Heinicke was clutch and salvaged a tie.  This is what a pretty good team getting pretty good quarterbacking looks like.  Surely you all don't think good quarterbacking requires throwing the ball 40+ times a game like we were doing with Carson Wentz.

[skinny21]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Also, Heinicke and Wentz might not be hot either at throwing them -- Heinicke I could see that from watching him in camp.  And Wentz isn't hot at throwing balls on the first level.

 

Heinicke seems better throwing at the first level vertically than horizontally.  Granted, I haven't looked at charts on them so maybe i am wrong.  I think Heinicke from what I've seen is good at throwing tosses at RBs but from what I recall seeing struggled with screens which require a longer throw typically.  if I recall at the Colts game which I was at, he had two screen type passes -- throws outside the numbers but shortish where the WR had to scoop the ball and they looked ugly. 

I agree with this, but man, regarding just our rb screens - feels like they are blown up before the throw.  Scary bad.  I agree with @Warhead36 about a tell, though I’m guessing it’s more on the olinemen and the way they release blockers?  Of course, I’ve also noticed he will (oftentimes/always?) fake handoffs to the back before a screen, which seems a terrible idea.

[86 Snyder]

4 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

The dude saved our season.  He is absolutely one of key reasons for our turnaround.  What other big personnel changes did we make that you think turned our season around?  Trading away Williams Jackson?

 

Yes, a QB who is 5-1-1 as the starter is a hot QB.  Especially when the team was 2-4 with the previous guy.  Where is this narrative that we're winning in spite of Heinicke coming from?  Because this team is so good they could win with anyone? (except Carson Wentz)  Committing to the run, avoiding penalties, being efficient on third downs, and playing good defense isn't some special strategy you enact when you think your QB sucks.  It's just playing good football.  And when the team didn't play well today and got a ton of penalties and the run game wasn't an option for most of the situations we found ourselves in, Heinicke was clutch and salvaged a tie.  This is what a pretty good team getting pretty good quarterbacking looks like.  Surely you all don't think good quarterbacking requires throwing the ball 40+ times a game like we were doing with Carson Wentz.

There’s a difference between pretty good quarterbacking and won’t kill you quarterbacking.  We are receiving the latter, but it’s still an improvement and should be acknowledged.

[CapsSkins]

5 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

The dude saved our season.  He is absolutely one of key reasons for our turnaround.  What other big personnel changes did we make that you think turned our season around?  Trading away Williams Jackson?

 

Yes, a QB who is 5-1-1 as the starter is a hot QB.  Especially when the team was 2-4 with the previous guy.  Where is this narrative that we're winning in spite of Heinicke coming from?  Because this team is so good they could win with anyone? (except Carson Wentz)  Committing to the run, avoiding penalties, being efficient on third downs, and playing good defense isn't some special strategy you enact when you think your QB sucks.  It's just playing good football.  And when the team didn't play well today and got a ton of penalties and the run game wasn't an option for most of the situations we found ourselves in, Heinicke was clutch and salvaged a tie.  This is what a pretty good team getting pretty good quarterbacking looks like.  Surely you all don't think good quarterbacking requires throwing the ball 40+ times a game like we were doing with Carson Wentz.

 

The team went from God Awful QB play (Wentz to start) to Not Quite Good Enough Not Quite and Enough play (Heinicke). The question is whether Wentz could come in and raise his game to Decent or even Mediocre QB Play, both of which would be an upgrade to our current output at the position.

[skinny21]

45 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Our roster has a front row seat to Taylor’s struggles, so they can see it better than anyone.  It’s a bit presumptuous to assume they are all gung-ho that Heinicke is an untouchable dude.

 

I don’t think he’s getting pulled yet though.  I said prior to todays game that he’ll have to lose one minimum, maybe two.  I’m thinking the tie counts more like a loss though.

I’m with you, except that it felt like poor ST plays, penalties and rather horrendous oline play will (and probably should) be factored in.  You can certainly isolate poor plays by Heinicke, though I’m not sure he made more of them (percentage-wise, as we threw more today) than usual.  I could be wrong though.

[samy316]

1 minute ago, CapsSkins said:

 

The team went from God Awful QB play (Wentz to start) to Not Quite Good Enough Not Quite and Enough play (Heinicke). The question is whether Wentz could come in and raise his game to Decent or even Mediocre QB Play, both of which would be an upgrade to our current output at the position.

No he can’t.  He already has 3+ years of tape proving the exact opposite.  We lose today’s game with Wentz at QB.  He would’ve taken a sack on that first TD pass to McLaurin, and he would’ve thrown a game ending pick if he had to drive us 90 Yards for a game tying TD.  That’s not saying that Heinecke is great or good, but he does just enough to give you a chance to win.  Wentz doesn’t.  Wentz is anti-clutch.

[mistertim]

12 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

The dude saved our season.  He is absolutely one of key reasons for our turnaround.  What other big personnel changes did we make that you think turned our season around?  Trading away Williams Jackson?

 

Yes, a QB who is 5-1-1 as the starter is a hot QB.  Especially when the team was 2-4 with the previous guy.  Where is this narrative that we're winning in spite of Heinicke coming from?  Because this team is so good they could win with anyone? (except Carson Wentz)  Committing to the run, avoiding penalties, being efficient on third downs, and playing good defense isn't some special strategy you enact when you think your QB sucks.  It's just playing good football.  And when the team didn't play well today and got a ton of penalties and the run game wasn't an option for most of the situations we found ourselves in, Heinicke was clutch and salvaged a tie.  This is what a pretty good team getting pretty good quarterbacking looks like.  Surely you all don't think good quarterbacking requires throwing the ball 40+ times a game like we were doing with Carson Wentz.

 

So the QB who the coaches are clearly intentionally limiting in the game plan is the one who saved our season? He's not asked to do much. He hands the ball off a bunch, sometimes makes mostly short and some intermediate passes to help move the chains, mostly to guys who are very open due to lots of motion plus play action.

 

I think the biggest reason we're winning is because we got guys back on OL who were injured, our running game started clicking because BRob came back and got his legs under him after a couple games, which let us also use Gibson in the correct way, and our defense made changes and are now playing at an elite level.

 

We have a top 5 rushing attack and a top 3 defense. What definitely isn't top 5 or top 3? Our QB and passing offense. They're way down at the bottom.

 

But somehow Heinicke is the guy who you credit?

Edited December 5, 2022 by mistertim

[FootballZombie]

9 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

Committing to the run, avoiding penalties, being efficient on third downs, and playing good defense isn't some special strategy you enact when you think your QB sucks.  It's just playing good football. 

 

Dude, your trying to to have it both ways. You can't acknowledge that we run the ball to oblivion and minimize the impact the QB has on every game by stratagem and that somehow correlates to "this QB is Hot"

 

Dudes numbers are terrible. We do that to shield the team from them.

 

[CapsSkins]

3 minutes ago, samy316 said:

No he can’t.  He already has 3+ years of tape proving the exact opposite.  We lose today’s game with Wentz at QB.  He would’ve taken a sack on that first TD pass to McLaurin, and he would’ve thrown a game ending pick if he had to drive us 90 Yards for a game tying TD.  That’s not saying that Heinecke is great or good, but he does just enough to give you a chance to win.  Wentz doesn’t.  Wentz is anti-clutch.

 

The Wentz that played in Indy last season was far better than the Wentz that played this season and would also be significantly better than Heinicke. If you're telling me we could have last year's Wentz before he got Covid? Sign me up.

[SkinsFTW]

15 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

Surely you all don't think good quarterbacking requires throwing the ball 40+ times a game like we were doing with Carson Wentz.

Heineke just threw the ball 41 times. 

[samy316]

4 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 

The Wentz that played in Indy last season was far better than the Wentz that played this season and would also be significantly better than Heinicke. If you're telling me we could have last year's Wentz before he got Covid? Sign me up.

That Wentz is gone.  He was only adequate, because he was playing in a familiar system under Frank Reich.  He even screwed that up, when they had to tailor their offense to have him throw under 25 attempts, and utilize Jonathan Taylor.  Then he did what he always does, threw up all over himself when his team needed him most.  Wentz is under a new offensive system this season, and looked totally lost.  We would be out of the playoff race, and without a 2nd round pick if he never got hurt.

Edited December 5, 2022 by samy316

[FLSkinz83]

My biggest issue with TH is he's not using his legs enough.    I'm not sure if that's on purpose or he's just not seeing and feeling the gaps to run through.     

 

He was much better at it last year.  

[Warhead36]

1 minute ago, FLSkinz83 said:

My biggest issue with TH is he's not using his legs enough.    I'm not sure if that's on purpose or he's just not seeing and feeling the gaps to run through.     

 

He was much better at it last year.  

He's not the run threat people think he is. He isn't actually particularly fast. He's quick and elusive and good at escaping the pocket but he often gets chased down pretty easily. He's not fast enough to beat most quality defenders to the edge.

[SkinsFTW]

1 minute ago, FLSkinz83 said:

My biggest issue with TH is he's not using his legs enough.    I'm not sure if that's on purpose or he's just not seeing and feeling the gaps to run through.     

 

He was much better at it last year.  

 

Maybe he's just trying to not get hurt so he gets paid again.

[FLSkinz83]

6 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

He's not the run threat people think he is. He isn't actually particularly fast. He's quick and elusive and good at escaping the pocket but he often gets chased down pretty easily. He's not fast enough to beat most quality defenders to the edge.

 

I'm not asking for Lamar Jackson or even Daniel Jones....I'm asking for what he did last year.   And it's not about speed, it's about pocket awareness and knowing when to escape the pocket and run.  I don't think he's been good at it this year.   

[Zim489]

2 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

I'm not asking for Lamar Jackson or even Daniel Jones....I'm asking for what he did last year.   And it's not about speed, it's about pocket awareness and knowing when to escape the pocket and run.  I don't think he's been good at it this year.   

Think hes playing terrified of losing his job. 

[tmandoug1]

28 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

So the QB who the coaches are clearly intentionally limiting in the game plan is the one who saved our season? He's not asked to do much. He hands the ball off a bunch, sometimes makes mostly short and some intermediate passes to help move the chains, mostly to guys who are very open due to lots of motion plus play action.

 

I think the biggest reason we're winning is because we got guys back on OL who were injured, our running game started clicking because BRob came back and got his legs under him after a couple games, which let us also use Gibson in the correct way, and our defense made changes and are now playing at an elite level.

 

We have a top 5 rushing attack and a top 3 defense. What definitely isn't top 5 or top 3? Our QB and passing offense. They're way down at the bottom.

 

But somehow Heinicke is the guy who you credit?

He threw the ball 41 times today.....

[zCommander]

2 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

So the QB who the coaches are clearly intentionally limiting in the game plan is the one who saved our season? He's not asked to do much. He hands the ball off a bunch, sometimes makes mostly short and some intermediate passes to help move the chains, mostly to guys who are very open due to lots of motion and plus play action.

 

So let me get this straight: Taylor just casually throws the ball here and there to wide open receivers and just hands off the ball 

 

That 4th down conversion was Taylor being clutch. That was not a designed and limited play the coaches called up.

 

Taylor also has situation football smarts and has good pocket awareness as well. This is something you can't coach up. 

[FLSkinz83]

8 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

Think hes playing terrified of losing his job. 

 

I don't blame him the way Ron talks about him.   But at this point he's gotta forget that

[Spaceman Spiff]

45 minutes ago, SkinsFTW said:

Heineke just threw the ball 41 times. 

 

21 minutes ago, tmandoug1 said:

He threw the ball 41 times today.....

For a 101.2 rating. 
 

 

[skins island connection]

40 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

He's not the run threat people think he is. He isn't actually particularly fast. He's quick and elusive and good at escaping the pocket but he often gets chased down pretty easily. He's not fast enough to beat most quality defenders to the edge.

 

 right, but that threat hasn't been present in the last month or so.

Defenses/ DCs see this and adjust their game plan because they doubt he will take off. Maybe he was told not to jeopardize the chances of making post-season. I doubt that he just doesn't want to do it because there's been numerous plays where he had at least 7-10 yds of open space to run but threw it instead. The only reason I could think of would be RR or ST holding back that option in hopes of post-season play, then using it. I can kinda get the idea of not showing all your cards right now, but it will be a tough game against SF and not letting your QB escape the pocket.

[mistertim]

25 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

So let me get this straight: Taylor just casually throws the ball here and there to wide open receivers and just hands off the ball 

 

That 4th down conversion was Taylor being clutch. That was not a designed and limited play the coaches called up.

 

Taylor also has situation football smarts and has good pocket awareness as well. This is something you can't coach up. 

 

I've already said that 4th down play was amazing. That doesn't change the fact that the game plan with him has clearly been designed to limit his responsibilities. I was responding to a poster who said that Heinicke "saved our season" and he was the main one who should get credit. Which is ridiculous considering how dominant our run game and defense have been and how limited our passing offense has been.

 

As far as the passes, again I'm talking about the majority of what they're trying to do with him, not specific throws. They establish the run, and then tend to have him complete short or intermediate quick passes off of play action to help move the chains. Which he does.

 

I'm pretty sure you've admitted yourself that the game plan has leaned heavily on the run game and the defense keeping opponents to low scores. Do you still believe that or do you believe, as this other poster does, that Heinicke is the main one responsible?