The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Koolblue13]

6 hours ago, zCommander said:

 

You can't say it is because of just the run and the defense alone either no more than I can say it is just Taylor. I said he was one of the reason. Taylor buys times and that helps the team overall. You said the coaches are limiting Taylor and I said that is not the case. Are you saying Taylor is a non-factor in these wins? Then why aren't the coaches putting Wentz back in if that is the case?

 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

If I’m Carson at this point, I don’t want my job back.  Toughest stretch of the season with the most to lose, having not played for a few months, in a system he never looked great in to begin with.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

It was the quintessential Heinicke game.  Generally stunk for the majority of the game with late game moxie heroics, and a bunch of danger balls.  The only reason I lean more to the loss side is that he was spraying it so bad after the GTD, that the staff made him hand it off on 3rd and 10 and play for the tie.  That said a lot to me about their belief in him.

 

He's an engima for sure.

 

A.  He can come back against any team.

 

B.  He can play poorly against any team no matter how bad their secondary is.

 

C.  Even in the same game you rarely get consistent good or bad -- its a see saw of emotions.

 

On the aggregate IMO its not hard to see that he's below average.  Below average stats.  Below average tools.  But the defense is well above average.  Running game is good.  I agree the O line isn't hot but for me at least I can't just ignore a QB who isn't accurate, its not hard for me to see, I can't ignore the lack of arm strength, lack of size.

 

And no its not because as some of his more vocal defenders say, people hate him for no reason.  He's a super likable guy.  i love watching Heinicke interviews.

 

And the anaylitical outfits that delve deepr into Heinicke's stats, say the stats which aren't good are even worse when you consider context.  And no I don't think they reach the conclusion because they just don't like the dude and can't appreciate context. the whole idea behind anaylitcs is to factor context.  I am not saying these guys are always correct but I can't think of too much from the lets delve deeper in the stats helping Taylor's case.

 

Would I ride him still over Wentz.  Yes.  But even the lead Heinicke defender within the media Bram Weinstein says it would be on the table as to playing Wentz and in consideration for him considering how Heinicke has played of late.  So I'd stick to Heinicke but on a short leash and like most here I'd prefer Howell over Wentz. 

 

Edited December 5, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Hoover-ball]

6 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

If I’m Carson at this point, I don’t want my job back.  Toughest stretch of the season with the most to lose, having not played for a few months, in a system he never looked great in to begin with.

You don’t make it to the NFL if you don’t want to play. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

5 minutes ago, Hoover-ball said:

You don’t make it to the NFL if you don’t want to play. 

Not always true, plenty of guys make it because they are good but don’t love it.

 

But that’s not really the point I was making, and I don’t think that Carson is one of the guys above.

 

I was speaking more from the realistic perspective of where his confidence level probably is, and the heap of blame that will be hoisted on him if he doesn’t perform.  

[goskins10]

28 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Not always true, plenty of guys make it because they are good but don’t love it.

 

But that’s not really the point I was making, and I don’t think that Carson is one of the guys above.

 

I was speaking more from the realistic perspective of where his confidence level probably is, and the heap of blame that will be hoisted on him if he doesn’t perform.  

 

 

Jeff George comes to mind - Mr. QB does not need to a leader. He is not the only one. There are defnitly some players qwho make it on sheer talent alone and just want to make some money. but are not in love with the game. 

 

I also do not get that from Carson. I think he loves football and he loves playing with his teammates. It's just based on players input he doesn't have that kind of spark that makes guys want to walk through walls with him. They like him, they apprecaite his talents, but he doesnt really get thier juices running and get them to play thier best. 

 

In fairness TH seems to do that. He seems to motivate guys with his approach to the game and excitment That is not a knock on Carson it's a plus for TH. But at some point you have to do your part physically. TH makes games harder than they need to be with some questionable decision making and his physical limitations. I did see him and Scott feature Samual and Dotson more yesterday. But it seemed forced some times. And more passes means exposing TH's weaknesses and the oline and takes away from the run game. 

 

Unless Howell can be the guy, I think all will agree the QB of the future is NOT on the team right now. I think we can all, or at least most of us, agree there is no reason to pull TH for Carson ever outside of injury. Maybe give Howell a chance? But not yet. Like to see what TH does against NY at home. But Carson needs to be gone at the end of the season. No way they need to eat that big ass contract. 

 

 

[mistertim]

3 hours ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

lol dude, we get it. He’s a terrible quarterback and an affront to your delicate sensibilities. You’ve made your point, believe me. 

 

And I apologize for putting out a counterpoint to a number you posted.

 

Look, nobody is taking away the great 4th down pass or the drive to tie the game. But the idea that Heinicke had an overall good game is just not realistic. Our offense was anemic and scored 3 points after the 1st quarter. Then he almost threw two picks on the drive after the tying one. Then the coaches obviously didn't have confidence in him passing and played super conservative on the ground. The QBR seems to reflect a lot of that.

[Zim489]

God why the **** are we still having these convos heading into god damn year 4? ****ing Ron fix this ****. 

[Going Commando]

9 hours ago, SkinsFTW said:

Heineke just threw the ball 41 times. 

 

Yeah, he carried a big load yesterday, and it was because the team played horrible and your QB has to carry them on days like that.  The run game wasn't an option for us in the down and distance and scoreboard situations we found ourselves in for most of the day.  The OL and TE play was a shambles and the defense got gashed on the ground.  The OL had been getting their asses kicked during our win streak too, but they weren't getting flagged and Heinicke and BRob and Gibby were able to salvage functional offense out of their bad play.

 

We deserved to lose yesterday with the way we played.  But Heinicke was clutch and salvaged a bad game from the team as a whole into a tie.

[Professor_Nutter_Butter]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

If I’m Carson at this point, I don’t want my job back.  Toughest stretch of the season with the most to lose, having not played for a few months, in a system he never looked great in to begin with.

He's potentially in danger of never getting his job back as a starter, at least in Washington. I'd hope he'd want to get out there to state his case.

[Koolblue13]

1 minute ago, Zim489 said:

God why the **** are we still having these convos heading into god damn year 4? ****ing Ron fix this ****. 

Right? I mean QB is the most important thing and we've done absolutely nothing to address it. Nothing.

 

Except aggressively chase any possible big name QB that could possibly be available, even retired. Signed, traded for and drafted some of our best options and publically talked about how important it is and how hard we are trying to fix the position.

 

But yeah, other than all of that, we've just done nothing and I don't understand why.

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

6 minutes ago, Professor_Nutter_Butter said:

He's potentially in danger of never getting his job back as a starter, at least in Washington. I'd hope he'd want to get out there to state his case.

I’m pretty sure that’s a done deal.  He’s done here, and likely to have his best option be another  team in QB purgatory willing to kick the tires.

[mistertim]

10 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

Yeah, he carried a big load yesterday, and it was because the team played horrible and your QB has to carry them on days like that.  The run game wasn't an option for us in the down and distance and scoreboard situations we found ourselves in for most of the day.  The OL and TE play was a shambles and the defense got gashed on the ground.  The OL had been getting their asses kicked during our win streak too, but they weren't getting flagged and Heinicke and BRob and Gibby were able to salvage functional offense out of their bad play.

 

We deserved to lose yesterday with the way we played.  But Heinicke was clutch and salvaged a bad game from the team as a whole into a tie.

 

Why didn't the QB carry them until the tying drive? Our entire offense was anemic, including Heinicke, until the very end. Then he had a great drive, followed up by one where he almost threw two picks. I assume you're going to say it was everyone else's fault.

 

Yes, Daniel Jones was able to run for a lot of yards, but their passing game was anemic and we held them to 20, which is a little below their average score this season.

[Professor_Nutter_Butter]

3 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I’m pretty sure that’s a done deal.  He’s done here, and likely to have his best option be another  team in QB purgatory willing to kick the tires.

Yeah but I imagine he's got to get out there and try to show he can still be a viable option for whatever team. He's already got a bad look with three teams in three years.

[FLSkinz83]

Bad blocking, bad penalties, bogus penalties and non penalties is why we didn't win this game.

 

On the whole, I'd give TH a 6/10.   That's basically my grade for him on the year.  he's solid + moxie.   

 

I don't think anyone has argued the he's a good starting QB.   It's is he solid or does he stink?   Most think he stinks, I think he's solid.

[Koolblue13]

 

[Thinking Skins]

On 11/29/2022 at 10:52 AM, Skinsinparadise said:

It's not like these guys got the last laugh.

I just wanted to bring this up because this season (and yesterday in particular) we're seeing a reevaluation of who the franchise QBs are right now and who the next guys are. 

 

Jalen Hurts - probably MVP, best team in the league - second rounder

Mike White - backup to some bum in NY, played 6 games total. 3 games with a rating above 100, three below 70. But he keeps getting passed on for the other bum because the bum was drafted higher. 

Geno Smith - another second rounder who is playing well now after having to serve a lot of time as a backup. 

Heinicke - we all know about him

Derek Carr - another second round pick, but he was developed as a starter

Brock Purdy - last player taken in draft, spot action so far but 200+ yard game (low ypa) yesterday in a win. 

 

 

There are more guys but there's a reason I like these stories. We heard of Heinicke coming in against Tampa in 2020 playoffs and everybody counted us out. I was trying to see the positives (based on stuff like this and the Carolina/Seattle games) but was trying to be realistic too. Then he played great and was replaced by Fitz. Fitz gets hurt, Heinicke comes in and plays ok and is benched for Wentz. Wentz gets hurt, Heinicke comes in and plays ok but there is talk about him being replaced again. 

 

We've gone down the path of other low round QBs before (and I don't really count second and third rounders as low round guys but included them here because we're once again seeing non-top 10 QBs dominate the league). 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

I am not shocked by the finger pointing at the OL and penalties in the least.  I’m not even saying there’s no truth in it, it’s just ironic that the free rushers and OL giving up immediate pressure in weeks 2-5 were Wentz fault for being a statue.

[Koolblue13]

2 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

I just wanted to bring this up because this season (and yesterday in particular) we're seeing a reevaluation of who the franchise QBs are right now and who the next guys are. 

 

Jalen Hurts - probably MVP, best team in the league - second rounder

Mike White - backup to some bum in NY, played 6 games total. 3 games with a rating above 100, three below 70. But he keeps getting passed on for the other bum because the bum was drafted higher. 

Geno Smith - another second rounder who is playing well now after having to serve a lot of time as a backup. 

Heinicke - we all know about him

Derek Carr - another second round pick, but he was developed as a starter

Brock Purdy - last player taken in draft, spot action so far but 200+ yard game (low ypa) yesterday in a win. 

 

 

There are more guys but there's a reason I like these stories. We heard of Heinicke coming in against Tampa in 2020 playoffs and everybody counted us out. I was trying to see the positives (based on stuff like this and the Carolina/Seattle games) but was trying to be realistic too. Then he played great and was replaced by Fitz. Fitz gets hurt, Heinicke comes in and plays ok and is benched for Wentz. Wentz gets hurt, Heinicke comes in and plays ok but there is talk about him being replaced again. 

 

We've gone down the path of other low round QBs before (and I don't really count second and third rounders as low round guys but included them here because we're once again seeing non-top 10 QBs dominate the league). 

It's not like Heinicke has been slowly improving. He's falling off the ledge just like he did last year, because his arm gets gassed or he loses focus or something. Either way, he's played terrible two weeks in a row and although I'm grateful for what he has done, it's time for a change.

 

What exactly did you see yesterday that makes you want to vehemently defend him? I just don't see it.

[Skinsinparadise]

24 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Right? I mean QB is the most important thing and we've done absolutely nothing to address it. Nothing.

 

Except aggressively chase any possible big name QB that could possibly be available, even retired. Signed, traded for and drafted some of our best options and publically talked about how important it is and how hard we are trying to fix the position.

 

But yeah, other than all of that, we've just done nothing and I don't understand why.

 

 

 

 

Yep.

 

Last time we arguably had a defense like this was under Gregg Williams.  the last time we made the playoffs, 2 out of three years (will see but we have a shot) predates Dan's ownership.

 

The last time we had a franchise QB is Joey Theismann.

 

but lol, damn Ron for trying everything he can but not fixing in 3 years the problem that has plagued this team for about 30 years and is arguably the hardest personnel problem to fix in any sport?  

 

 

Edited December 5, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[FLSkinz83]

1 minute ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I am not shocked by the finger pointing at the OL and penalties in the least.  I’m not even saying there’s no truth in it, it’s just ironic that the free rushers and OL giving up immediate pressure in weeks 2-5 were Wentz fault for being a statue.

 

I defended Wentz and blamed the O-Line and Turner.   

[Koolblue13]

Could you imagine if the teams had switched QBs yesterday? That game isn't close and our secondary would have feasted in the second half of that game. Wow did Heini launch some turkeys.

[Skinsinparadise]

Just now, Koolblue13 said:

Could you imagine if the teams had switched QBs yesterday? That game isn't close and our secondary would have feasted in the second half of that game. Wow did Heini launch some turkeys.

 

Agree.  I was probably the lead Daniel Jones hater in the draft thread.  And i only warmed up to him a little since he's been in the pros but not much.  But yeah imagine this run game if we had someone like Jones who can run himself and force defenses to keep guessing?

 

The Giants passing weapons are beyond awful.  It's really Jones and Barkley and that's it.  Their O line is better than years past  but they've been banged up for a chunk of this season.  

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

3 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

I defended Wentz and blamed the O-Line and Turner.   

Fair enough, it was a short list in that category though.

 

Wentz wasn’t without fault in his own right, but generally speaking yeah - he was under siege and his inexperience in the offense didn’t help him.

[Koolblue13]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Agree.  I was probably the lead Daniel Jones hater in the draft thread.  And i only warmed up to him a little since he's been in the pros but not much.  But yeah imagine this run game if we had someone like Jones who can run himself and force defenses to keep guessing?

 

The Giants passing weapons are beyond awful.  It's really Jones and Barkley and that's it.  Their O line is better than years past  but they've been banged up for a chunk of this season.  

Jones is not great, but I'd consider him next year.