The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Captain Wiggles]

8 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

For a 101.2 rating. 
 

 

 

[mistertim]

11 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

For a 101.2 rating. 
 

 

And a 27.9 QBR, which takes into account way more than the standard QB rating.

Edited December 5, 2022 by mistertim

[skinny21]

2 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I've already said that 4th down play was amazing. That doesn't change the fact that the game plan with him has clearly been designed to limit his responsibilities. I was responding to a poster who said that Heinicke "saved our season" and he was the main one who should get credit. Which is ridiculous considering how dominant our run game and defense have been and how limited our passing offense has been.

 

As far as the passes, again I'm talking about the majority of what they're trying to do with him, not specific throws. They establish the run, and then tend to have him complete short or intermediate quick passes off of play action to help move the chains. Which he does.

 

I'm pretty sure you've admitted yourself that the game plan has leaned heavily on the run game and the defense keeping opponents to low scores. Do you still believe that or do you believe, as this other poster does, that Heinicke is the main one responsible?

I don’t necessarily disagree with you here, but playing devil’s advocate… how would you gameplan/playcall an offense that struggles to pass protect?

[zCommander]

1 minute ago, mistertim said:

 

I've already said that 4th down play was amazing. That doesn't change the fact that the game plan with him has clearly been designed to limit his responsibilities. I was responding to a poster who said that Heinicke "saved our season" and he was the main one who should get credit. Which is ridiculous considering how dominant our run game and defense have been and how limited our passing offense has been.

 

As far as the passes, again I'm talking about the majority of what they're trying to do with him, not specific throws. They establish the run, and then tend to have him complete short or intermediate quick passes off of play action to help move the chains. Which he does.

 

I'm pretty sure you've admitted yourself that the game plan has leaned heavily on the run game and the defense keeping opponents to low scores. Do you still believe that or do you believe, as this other poster does, that Heinicke is the main one responsible?

 

To me they had to run since the OL wasn't going to give your QB any real time to throw. I would say the OL is limiting on what we can do instead. If it wasn't then Wentz would have been inserted back in after 4 weeks of being out. Dak came back after his injury. To me that is the bigger tell who is limiting the QB. 

 

Taylor has allowed the OL to be a little better by buying more time with his legs like Jay Gruden said. So in turn Taylor is somewhat helping in these wins because of his scrambling abilities, taking a hit while standing tall in the pocket, taking less sacks and not make too many mistakes. This is helping the team to get into a position to win games along with a strong running game. Taylor is not the only reason but he is still a factor than some think he isn't at all. The way the team is playing shows that. 

 

As for "saved our season" - I think the jury is still out on that. If we don't get into the playoffs then all this is just moot anyway. But as of right now Taylor has made us relevant with enough of his "moxie" to keep the flame going. But, we will know more after the bye week and see what the coaches feel and think who is going to be savior to once all hopes lost season. 

[mistertim]

1 minute ago, zCommander said:

 

To me they had to run since the OL wasn't going to give your QB any real time to throw. I would say the OL is limiting on what we can do instead. If it wasn't then Wentz would have been inserted back in after 4 weeks of being out. Dak came back after his injury. To me that is the bigger tell who is limiting the QB. 

 

Taylor has allowed the OL to be a little better by buying more time with his legs like Jay Gruden said. So in turn Taylor is somewhat helping in these wins because of his scrambling abilities, taking a hit while standing tall in the pocket, taking less sacks and not make too many mistakes. This is helping the team to get into a position to win games along with a strong running game. Taylor is not the only reason but he is still a factor than some think he isn't at all. The way the team is playing shows that. 

 

As for "saved our season" - I think the jury is still out on that. If we don't get into the playoffs then all this is just moot anyway. But as of right now Taylor has made us relevant with enough of his "moxie" to keep the flame going. But, we will know more after the bye week and see what the coaches feel and think who is going to be savior to once all hopes lost season. 

 

Ok so you do agree that Taylor Heinicke is the main reason we're winning now? Not the run game and defense?

[Conn]

4 hours ago, Kelvin Bryant said:

Heinicke wound up 27 of 41 for 275 yards. Two TDs no picks. Fumbled once, took 4 sacks. He missed a couple of throws but made a remarkable 4th down conversion to keep hope alive in the 4th quarter. He also held onto the ball when he was blasted at the goal line. This in a tough road game against a playoff contender, and without much help from his O-line.

I would count this as a pretty solid performance.

This reminds me of the pro-Campbell posts from that era where it read like the people didn’t actually watch him play the game and just looked at the box score. I assume you watched the game, that isn’t an attack on you. Just a remark about how we’ve been having these defensive “look at the stats, pretty solid performance” posts for bad QBs for literally decades here and they are basically never representative of what actually happened on the field. 

[Ball Security]

4 minutes ago, Conn said:

This reminds me of the pro-Campbell posts from that era where it read like the people didn’t actually watch him play the game and just looked at the box score. I assume you watched the game, that isn’t an attack on you. Just a remark about how we’ve been having these defensive “look at the stats, pretty solid performance” posts for bad QBs for literally decades here and they are basically never representative of what actually happened on the field. 

Could you not say the same thing for all the posts following the Houston game that said “look at how bad Heinicke is. He only put up 3 points and 27 yards in the second half”?  A game where Houston was behind by three scores for most of it and when they cut it to two scores they never got the ball back.

[Conn]

21 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

I don’t necessarily disagree with you here, but playing devil’s advocate… how would you gameplan/playcall an offense that struggles to pass protect?

Slants, quick strikes, heavy PA usage, multiple RBs in the backfield chipping and releasing.
 

It’s tough though because even when the mission was getting the ball out quick today, many times Heinicke could barely hit guys in stride on so many short passes, the balls were late and/or poorly placed and guys got clobbered instead of having forward momentum and the chance to utilize their YAC skills. We all can point to the plays where he places the ball correctly with the right timing, and those plays are rightly raised in his defense. But the many many failures almost seem to blend together for people until they lose sight of the ratio of plays that are the OL’s “fault” and Heinicke’s “fault”. 

[zCommander]

19 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Ok so you do agree that Taylor Heinicke is the main reason we're winning now? Not the run game and defense?

 

You can't say it is because of just the run and the defense alone either no more than I can say it is just Taylor. I said he was one of the reason. Taylor buys times and that helps the team overall. You said the coaches are limiting Taylor and I said that is not the case. Are you saying Taylor is a non-factor in these wins? Then why aren't the coaches putting Wentz back in if that is the case?

 

Edited December 5, 2022 by zCommander

[Conn]

Just now, zCommander said:

 

You can't say it is because of just the run and the defense alone either no more than I can say it is just Taylor. I said he was one of the reason. Taylor buys times and that helps the team overall. You said the coaches are limiting Taylor and I said that is not the case. Are you saying Taylor is a non-factor in these wins? Then why aren't the coaches putting Wentz back in if that was the case?

 

Those aren’t mutually exclusive points of view. Heinicke’s strengths, the importance of which are heightened by our poor pass-protection, can help our offense stay on schedule, put together long drives, and keep our defense (and the opposing offense) off the field when things are clicking. This is indisputable and is the “special sauce” he can bring to the table even when it’s not sexy. At the same time, the coaching staff is clearly limiting the exposure Heinicke is getting to a real NFL-caliber passing game because his arm and decision-making flirt with disaster at least half a dozen times a game. Today, it was more than that. Some weeks, it’s less. But the common thread is that they are always relying on his strengths while trying to limit the team’s exposure to his weaknesses. Which is how every coaching staff should coach around every player, but is more noticeable with Heinicke because his strengths and weaknesses are so starkly obvious. 

[mistertim]

3 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

You can't say it is because of just the run and the defense alone either no more than I can say it is just Taylor. I said he was one of the reason. Taylor buys times and that helps the team overall. You said the coaches are limiting Taylor and I said that is not the case. Are you saying Taylor is a non-factor in these wins? Then why aren't the coaches putting Wentz back in if that is the case?

 

 

I think it's pretty clear that they're limiting him, yes. But that's due to Heinicke's own limitations, and they're doing the best they can to game plan within what he can and can't do, and what he is and isn't good at. They obviously don't want him try to pass deep much. There are hardly any out routes. The play book is pared down, but it's still more or less working.

 

That doesn't mean Heinicke has nothing to do with the wins, but I think it's pretty obvious that the running game and defense both being top 5 units are the biggest drivers behind the success. We saw what happened last season after teams were able to start shutting down the run after the winning streak...it didn't go well for us.

 

As far as Wentz vs Heinicke, I'm guessing they're sticking with the guy who's out there and they're winning with, regardless of how big of a factor he is. And I think that's the right call, as I've said plenty of times before.

[Conn]

7 minutes ago, Ball Security said:

Could you not say the same thing for all the posts following the Houston game that said “look at how bad Heinicke is. He only put up 3 points and 27 yards in the second half”?  A game where Houston was behind by three scores for most of it and when they cut it to two scores they never got the ball back.

 

I’m not really sure what you’re getting at here, but if I’ve got you right: for me my answer would be no—because I watch the games and try to keep in mind the context around the stats, I don’t need to resort to boxscore pointing later. I’m no genius but when I’ve got my contact lenses in, my eyes work pretty okay and do a decent job of letting me form opinions that aren’t purely based on stats. When the stats line up with my perceptions, that makes sense. When they don’t, I try to ascertain why and examine the narratives I’ve got in my head for holes or biases. 

[mh86]

2 hours ago, 86 Snyder said:

I really doubt it dude.  If it’s a guy they take in the first two rounds, pretty sure erybody is going to want to see that unfold.  Howell doesn’t qualify bc he was drafted in the 5th.  At some point it’s be cool to see what he’s got, but hopefully we get a much better prospect in here.

Dwayne Haskins (rip) begs to differ.

[FLSkinz83]

I looked back at the throws at the end of regulation and the 2nd and 3rd down plays were really good by TH, I thought.    

 

Terry got two hands on the ball on the 2nd down play, but the DB made a great play.

 

On 3rd and 10, Leno gets beat right away and TH throws a great ball under pressure to Sims, but he kinda mistimed his jump and he doesn't come back to the ball.

[Ball Security]

1 minute ago, FLSkinz83 said:

I looked back at the throws at the end of regulation and the 2nd and 3rd down plays were really good by TH, I thought.    

 

Terry got two hands on the ball on the 2nd down play, but the DB made a great play.

 

On 3rd and 10, Leno gets beat right away and TH throws a great ball under pressure to Sims, but he kinda mistimed his jump and he doesn't come back to the ball.

I think that ball to Sims is an example of his lack of arm strength.  The ball doesn’t get on Sims quick enough and the defender can make a play.  At least that’s what I recall watching it in real time.  I haven’t seen a replay.

[FLSkinz83]

7 minutes ago, Ball Security said:

I think that ball to Sims is an example of his lack of arm strength.  The ball doesn’t get on Sims quick enough and the defender can make a play.  At least that’s what I recall watching it in real time.  I haven’t seen a replay.

 

His lack of arm strength shows when he's throwing off his back foot and that usually happens when there's pressure.  

[zCommander]

11 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I think it's pretty clear that they're limiting him, yes. But that's due to Heinicke's own limitations, and they're doing the best they can to game plan within what he can and can't do, and what he is and isn't good at. They obviously don't want him try to pass deep much. There are hardly any out routes. The play book is pared down, but it's still more or less working.

 

That doesn't mean Heinicke has nothing to do with the wins, but I think it's pretty obvious that the running game and defense both being top 5 units are the biggest drivers behind the success. We saw what happened last season after teams were able to start shutting down the run after the winning streak...it didn't go well for us.

 

As far as Wentz vs Heinicke, I'm guessing they're sticking with the guy who's out there and they're winning with, regardless of how big of a factor he is. And I think that's the right call, as I've said plenty of times before.

 

It is also clear the OL is limiting the passing game as well. We all know what Taylor's ceiling is along with the good and the bad. Even the OL said they like run plays because they know they can't protect the QB on pass plays even if they are the limited kind. Is all I am saying. 

 

So when you pair a limited OL with a limited QB you are going to get watered down pass offense. Not going with Wentz is more to do with which one is lesser of the two evils based on our OL pass protection. Taylor wins because of his mobility and moxie to keep a play alive. He has made Terry relevant again as well. Even found Jahan today too for a TD. Even if the QB is limited but you can still get enough out of them to move the chains and of course you have to be smart about it too and win games and that is the stat that matters the most at the end of the game. 

[Dark Acre]

Heinecke is Billy Kilmer without the gut.

[BleedBNG]

3 hours ago, Zim489 said:

This is because of his size. He cant follow through on his throws. He has to release early to get over the line. 

 

 

[86 Snyder]

31 minutes ago, mh86 said:

Dwayne Haskins (rip) begs to differ.

He definitely had his shot.

[TradeTheBeal!]

28 minutes ago, Dark Acre said:

Heinecke is Billy Kilmer without the gut.

or the sweet feet.  Kilmer could drop 75 and a td on almost anyone.

[zCommander]

 

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

5 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

And a 27.9 QBR, which takes into account way more than the standard QB rating.

lol dude, we get it. He’s a terrible quarterback and an affront to your delicate sensibilities. You’ve made your point, believe me. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

7 hours ago, skinny21 said:

I’m with you, except that it felt like poor ST plays, penalties and rather horrendous oline play will (and probably should) be factored in.  You can certainly isolate poor plays by Heinicke, though I’m not sure he made more of them (percentage-wise, as we threw more today) than usual.  I could be wrong though.

It was the quintessential Heinicke game.  Generally stunk for the majority of the game with late game moxie heroics, and a bunch of danger balls.  The only reason I lean more to the loss side is that he was spraying it so bad after the GTD, that the staff made him hand it off on 3rd and 10 and play for the tie.  That said a lot to me about their belief in him.

[Skinsinparadise]

8 hours ago, skinny21 said:

I agree with this, but man, regarding just our rb screens - feels like they are blown up before the throw.  Scary bad.  I agree with @Warhead36 about a tell, though I’m guessing it’s more on the olinemen and the way they release blockers?  Of course, I’ve also noticed he will (oftentimes/always?) fake handoffs to the back before a screen, which seems a terrible idea.

 

Thinking about it some more, he's better when its a designed screen, first read, versus sort of a checkdown screen because no one else is open.  On those 2nd-3rd read checkdowns, he sort of murders the WR and its shut down typically fast, including one pass like that yesterday because he telegraphs the throw and it takes some time to get to the WR and the WR in turns gets leveled once he gets the ball.

Edited December 5, 2022 by Skinsinparadise