The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Stone Cold]

9 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

So how do we fix it moving forward with something other than ANOTHER season with a stop gap? Its been going on since Kirk left. I dont consider Dwayne a real swing due to Dan and last season of Jay. That was doomed from the start. 

 

Enough with the terrible options we have. What are realistic steps that can be taken to actually get at minimum a good option that doesnt cost what the great options cost (so taking out of the equation of Carr at 40+ a year)?

I’m casting my lot with Sam Howell.  I’ve been a fan of his for a while.  Love what he brings to the field.  He’s sitting and learning this year.  I honestly believe he could come in now and give us a huge lift based on physical ability alone, but we have to let 4 ride out the win streak.  Sam’s gonna turn heads in camp.  Mark this post.  

[mistertim]

38 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

We weren't going to go into this season with Heinicke as the starter again so arguing anything that results in that is a moot point.

 

Yeah it's been clear over the past two offseasons that our coaches don't see TH as a legit NFL starter, and I doubt they've seen anything this season that has changed their minds. Unfortunately we won't be in a spot to get one of the top QBs so we'll probably have to hope that a talented guy who might lack some polish falls out of the top 10 and we can move up for him.

 

That or we get lucky and Howell is a gem.

[Skinsinparadise]

26 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

So how do we fix it moving forward with something other than ANOTHER season with a stop gap? Its been going on since Kirk left. I dont consider Dwayne a real swing due to Dan and last season of Jay. That was doomed from the start. 

 

Enough with the terrible options we have. What are realistic steps that can be taken to actually get at minimum a good option that doesnt cost what the great options cost (so taking out of the equation of Carr at 40+ a year)?

 

Howie Roseman talked about it years ago in an interview.  His point more or less is finding a good QB is hard, your best shot is to keep swinging, every year if need be.  He alluded to most teams will sit on their decision at QB and let it rest for awhile and his point was unless you are sure, that's a mistake so keep swinging.

 

Looking at the Eagles they drafted Foles.  next year they took Barkley.  2 years later Wentz.   A few years later Hurts.  They trade for Bradford. They trade for Minschew. They sign Daniels for big money at the time to be a backup.  Sign and later trade Flacco.  Roll the dice on Carson Strong.

 

My point is the Eagles are always churning at QB which is a tactic that Roseman espoused.  Arguably no one since Gibbs 1 have cracked the code at QB here in a way that lasted.  Clearly it isn't easy.  And what i thought was interesting about the Roseman interview is he flat out made the point that its hard to figure out Qb so keep throwing darts until you hit.

Edited December 6, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Warhead36]

My guess is if someone falls to like 10 ish we trade up similar to what the Chiefs and Bears gave up for Mahomes/Fields.

[redskinss]

So if (and this is a big if) Brock Purdy and Mike white continue to play Reasonably well and both teams make the playoffs can we drop the "Sam howell needs 3 years to become a backup" narrative because he was a 5th round pick?

Both those guys are starters now on good teams with outstanding defenses, one was a 5th round pick the other is a rookie and Mr irrelevant. 

I'm tired of hearing that howell won't succeed because he was a 5th round pick as though it's that cut and dry.

There's a huge difference between a guy grabbed at the end of the 5th round who was expected to be late round to undrafted and a guy who was the first pick in the 5th who many had going anywhere from round 1 to 3 some as high as 11 oversll to us and just the year before was a top ten prospect.

Howell has the potential to be our long term answer and his training camp and preseason did nothing to change that.

 

 

[Zim489]

The swinging will make sense to me but the non first rounders at this point is antiquated approach. The odds are so low that its not even worth considering.

 

The biggest difference in the eagles is that they are always looking to add more picks. Especially high end ones. They dont care if it results in a step backwards. They see themselves as possibly fighting for a 6th spot in the playoffs (pre 3rd WC). Eff that lets trade bradford and get a 1st and lower our own pick. Toss the rookie to the wolves and lets see what he does. 

 

They are always looking for future seasons and how to capitalize on obtaining future assets. Its something I so desperately want here. What they did in the the 2020 tankbowl with us in week 17 and what they have turned that into and continue to do (they are on pace for a top 3-5 pick this season off that game) is master class and should be taught across the NFL. 

 

 

[Warhead36]

2 minutes ago, redskinss said:

So if (and this is a big if) Brock Purdy and Mike white continue to play Reasonably well and both teams make the playoffs can we drop the "Sam howell needs 3 years to become a backup" narrative because he was a 5th round pick?

Both those guys are starters now on good teams with outstanding defenses, one was a 5th round pick the other is a rookie and Mr irrelevant. 

I'm tired of hearing that howell won't succeed because he was a 5th round pick as though it's that cut and dry.

There's a huge difference between a guy grabbed at the end of the 5th round who was expected to be late round to undrafted and a guy who was the first pick in the 5th who many had going anywhere from round 1 to 3 some as high as 11 oversll to us and just the year before was a top ten prospect.

Howell has the potential to be our long term answer and his training camp and preseason did nothing to change that.

 

 

Purdy is starting out of necessity. He was the 3rd string going in, same as Howell.

 

White has been with the Jets for a couple years. He has experience in that system. Different situation.

[FLSkinz83]

Anyone listen to that Saba lady that calls into the Kevin Sheehan show?    Wow, does she love her some TH.   She's the Queen Hiver.   

[redskinss]

2 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Purdy is starting out of necessity. He was the 3rd string going in, same as Howell

Yes but they could go out and get a veteran or easily could have gotten one when Lance went down but they didn't.

Plus that's not the point, if he does well it will be another example of how you don't necessarily need 3 years to get a mid or late round pick ready to play football, especially if the surrounding team is playing extremely well.

But I also said, at this point that's a big if.

[Zim489]

1 minute ago, FLSkinz83 said:

Anyone listen to that Saba lady that calls into the Kevin Sheehan show?    Wow, does she love her some TH.   She's the Queen Hiver.   

She ruins any segment that she calls into. Complete football illiterate. Needs to stick to facebook commenting. 

[Koolblue13]

2 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

Anyone listen to that Saba lady that calls into the Kevin Sheehan show?    Wow, does she love her some TH.   She's the Queen Hiver.   

Shecommander?

[Zim489]

Just now, redskinss said:

Yes but they could go out and get a veteran or easily could have gotten one when Lance went down but they didn't.

Plus that's not the point, if he does well it will be another example of how you don't necessarily need 3 years to get a mid or late round pick ready to play football, especially if the surrounding team is playing extremely well.

But I also said, at this point that's a big if.

Well Kyle vs Ron and Scott is quite the difference. Kyle is arguably the greatest offensive mind of his generation while Ron is one of the oldest schooled HCs in the game and Scott is looking like a middling at best OC and bottom 5 at worst.

[FLSkinz83]

2 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

She ruins any segment that she calls into. Complete football illiterate. Needs to stick to facebook commenting. 

 

So you're saying you want her to post in this forum?    

[Zim489]

1 minute ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

So you're saying you want her to post in this forum?    

Based on some of the Taylor defenders on here I wouldnt be surpised if she already was 

[redskinss]

1 minute ago, Zim489 said:

Well Kyle vs Ron and Scott is quite the difference. Kyle is arguably the greatest offensive mind of his generation while Ron is one of the oldest schooled HCs in the game and Scott is looking like a middling at best OC and bottom 5 at worst.

Kyle may be a great coordinator but even he knows he can't turn chicken **** into chicken salad.

If he could he wouldn't have given up 3 first round picks for trey lance.

If Purdy succeeds it'll be because the team around him makes it very easy for him.

We have the potential to be in that same boat.

We have a great defense and lots and lots of ammo on offense, we just need the gun.

[Skinsinparadise]

17 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

The swinging will make sense to me but the non first rounders at this point is antiquated approach. The odds are so low that its not even worth considering.

 

The biggest difference in the eagles is that they are always looking to add more picks. Especially high end ones. They dont care if it results in a step backwards. They see themselves as possibly fighting for a 6th spot in the playoffs (pre 3rd WC). Eff that lets trade bradford and get a 1st and lower our own pick. Toss the rookie to the wolves and lets see what he does. 

 

They are always looking for future seasons and how to capitalize on obtaining future assets. Its something I so desperately want here. What they did in the the 2020 tankbowl with us in week 17 and what they have turned that into and continue to do (they are on pace for a top 3-5 pick this season off that game) is master class and should be taught across the NFL. 

 

 

 

I am closer to your position on the non-first round QBs than the group that keeps citing why can't we find the next Russell Wilson group.

 

But I am not hard and fast about the rule.  I am cool with taking a Qb outside of the first round but the key for me is doubling it up.  Eagles for example did fish mostly outside the first round, struck out most of the time but hit on one.  If you do it frequently it increases the odds. 

 

For example I got more faith that Howell might be the dude than you do.  But i am also not in the camp of those here who want to ride next season with him and Heinicke.  I'd want someone else to throw into the pile.  

 

If I had to pick what I hate doing the most at QB, its actually taking that 2nd tier QB in the first round like we did with Ramsey, Campbell and Haskins.  Giving up a first rounder is major draft capital and once you do -- few teams are going to move away quickly from an investement like that.  If I am giving up a 3rd or 4th, its not a big deal.  I was totally OK for Shanny to double up with Kirk in that draft even though I loved RG3.  Bottom line is the typical 3rd-4th rounder is a bust so what's the big deal if the Qb ends up a bust -- assuming the Qb is a player of course you are intrigued by like Shanny was with Kirk.

 

If I am shooting for a QB in the middle to late first round, i'd go boom-bust type like I said the other day, a player we are both intrigued about -- Anthony Richardson. 

 

But for example if they are intrigued with Jake Heaner in the 5th, I am ok with rolling the dice and let him compete.  That would be very Eagles like.  Keep throwing darts at the dart board. 

Edited December 6, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[NoCalMike]

Right now behind this O-line, I am not sure what QB would have success. Yes, good QBs would be better than Heinicke, but that is a low bar.  Ron went into the season with the assumption the O-line was going to be a lot better and then injuries started piling up and here we are.  I am not a Wentz believer, but I do think with a better O-line he is absolutely the better option, the flipside is what can I expect from Wentz behind this awful O-line?  Heinicke is supposed to be the mobile QB that can hurt with his legs, yet he is still getting hit after a ton of throws, so much that a handful of times over the past couple of games, he has got up pretty slow and shaking his arm out.  If Ron & Co. don't get some more depth in here from I don't know where, Heinicke might be playing on borrowed time as it is.  

[Zim489]

Welcome the first team for the Caleb Williams tankathon: The Tennessee Titans. Im expecting us to go hard after Tannehill. Its just what this team does. 

[Riggo-toni]

Looking at how the Colts have gone from one failed stopgap to the next -Rivers, Wentz, Ryan - or how badly the can't miss move for Russell Wilson has been a catastrophic miss, just remember it could be worse.  

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

28 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

Anyone listen to that Saba lady that calls into the Kevin Sheehan show?    Wow, does she love her some TH.   She's the Queen Hiver.   

They actually give her airtime on several 980 shows, even prior to TH.  I never understood their fascination with putting her on the air, her takes are generally overly simple and just generally bad.  But now that I think about it, that pretty much fits the standard local sports radio caller.

Edited December 6, 2022 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[Jumbo]

24 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

So you're saying you want her to post in this forum?    

 

Don't introduce off topic tangents

that seem to have no value other than to provoke exchanges of the very type that's been repeatedly noted to avoid.

 

I suggest you focus on a straight and narrow path for awhile because with 2 rule violations from 2 mods plus a few "almost" posts in your short time here it's shaky. 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

16 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

They actually give her airtime on several 980 shows, even prior to TH.  I never understood their fascination with putting her on the air, her takes are generally overly simple and just generally bad.  But now that I think about it, that pretty much fits the standard local sports radio caller.

 

Her favorite take is that its Scott Turner who is preventing Heinicke from running.  That's clearly nonsense.

 

Heinicke on the read option has the option to run the ball himself but he doesn't do it.  I have heard Turner talk about the subject, Taylor has leeway to run.  He has had to my naked eye and to others observations -- opportunities to scamper for a first down on some critical plays -- yet he doesn't do it.  Clearly, Taylor doesn't want to run.  But her favorite thing to hang on to is that Scott doesn't take advantage of his mobility.

Edited December 6, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Her favorite take is that its Scott Turner who is preventing Heinicke from running.  That's clearly nonsense.

 

Heinicke on the read option has the option to run the ball himself but he doesn't do it.  I have heard Turner talk about the subject, Taylor has leeway to run.  He has had to my naked eye and to others observations -- opportunities to scamper for a first down on some critical plays -- yet he doesn't do it.  Clearly, Taylor doesn't want to run.  But her favorite thing to hang on to is that Scott doesn't take advantage of his mobility.

Man, she would fit right in here.  Let me guess, Scott also needs to roll TH out? 🤣

 

Of all the the takes on our QB situation over the years, Scott Turner not doing right by TH might be the wildest.  Without Scott Turner, TH is probably an accountant right now.  I bet nobody is more aware of this than TH himself.

[Warhead36]

The scary thing is that Saba lady is actually a Doctor or Surgeon or something...

[skinny21]

13 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Her favorite take is that its Scott Turner who is preventing Heinicke from running.  That's clearly nonsense.

 

Heinicke on the read option has the option to run the ball himself but he doesn't do it.  I have heard Turner talk about the subject, Taylor has leeway to run.  He has had to my naked eye and to others observations -- opportunities to scamper for a first down on some critical plays -- yet he doesn't do it.  Clearly, Taylor doesn't want to run.  But her favorite thing to hang on to is that Scott doesn't take advantage of his mobility.

I don’t know what the deal with the lack of running is.  I don’t believe it’s concern for injury - he was rarely taking hits while scrambling last year as he ran ‘safer’, and frankly, it’s probably way more dangerous sitting in the pocket behind this oline.  Really hard for me to believe it’s a coaching thing - the coaches comments point to the opposite.  

My best guess is that he sees the weapons he has, combined with having faith in Turner’s offense (and his understanding/comfort within it), and so feels like getting the ball into his playmakers hands, even on short passes, is a better option than scrambling for a few yards.  Perhaps there’s an element to how defenses have played too - staying disciplined in their rush lanes, occasionally spying him and such, I don’t know.  The one time we saw him use his legs - against the Colts on (IIRC) the game winning drive - was pretty awesome.  Picking up 1st downs, getting OOB to stop the clock… you could tell it was a dagger to that defense (which had contained our offense pretty well to that point).  Of course, that was late in the game, so you have to imagine the defense had some tired legs at that point.

 

As to the RPO stuff specifically, feel like I heard/read he didn’t run this in college?  If I’m right about that, it could explain this to some extent?

5 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Man, she would fit right in here.  Let me guess, Scott also needs to roll TH out? 🤣

 

Of all the the takes on our QB situation over the years, Scott Turner not doing right by TH might be the wildest.  Without Scott Turner, TH is probably an accountant right now.  I bet nobody is more aware of this than TH himself.

For me, Turner is likely the primary person Heinicke is referring to when he talks about wanting to prove his supporters right, vs his doubters wrong.  Have there been moments I thought Turner could have done better in terms of play calling w/ TH?  Sure.  But mostly, he’s been very good with Heinicke (particularly given TH’s limitations).