The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

4 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I’m not huge on PFF grades but for those that are… Fields was apparently graded the highest of all QBs in week 9. 
 

Sometimes posting something tremendously silly before you let things play out really can put things in perspective. We’ve all been there. Hopefully this is a case where sometimes perspective wins over emotion.

 

But, even as someone who was all about Fields it’s still too early to even deem that he has “arrived”. It’s just a positive step in his development.

There were folks who declared him a bust in his very first appearance.  Granted, it was bad - but it was like wow, how can you really make conclusive decisions on a guy after one appearance, particularly one where Matt Nagy clearly did him no favors?

 

The conclusive opinions/decisions some make on players so quickly is just insane, be it good or bad.

 

 

[Warhead36]

8 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

There were folks who declared him a bust in his very first appearance.  Granted, it was bad - but it was like wow, how can you really make conclusive decisions on a guy after one appearance, particularly one where Matt Nagy clearly did him no favors?

 

The conclusive opinions/decisions some make on players so quickly is just insane, be it good or bad.

 

 

My theory has always been that if you suck early on, you're probably destined to suck. Its REALLY hard to suck early on and then develop into really good. The only guy I can think of is Brees and maybe Goff but he might have just been more of a McVay system product.

 

If you're good it shows right away. Manning threw a bunch of picks but you could see his talent and that it was only a matter of time. Ditto Josh Allen, you could see flashes right away.

 

I'm not sure I've seen enough flashes from Fields early. He's super slow to process information and doesn't have a quick release. But he got better last night for sure. We'll see if it lasts.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

5 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

My theory has always been that if you suck early on, you're probably destined to suck. Its REALLY hard to suck early on and then develop into really good. The only guy I can think of is Brees and maybe Goff but he might have just been more of a McVay system product.

 

If you're good it shows right away. Manning threw a bunch of picks but you could see his talent and that it was only a matter of time. Ditto Josh Allen, you could see flashes right away.

 

I'm not sure I've seen enough flashes from Fields early. He's super slow to process information and doesn't have a quick release. But he got better last night for sure. We'll see if it lasts.

"Early on" is rather subjective though.  Dude's first start where Nagy set him up running the offense he ran for Dalton, and folks were already piling on that he was a definitive bust.  It's still "early on" in regards to how he pans out, that's my point.

 

I'm not one to suggest it's kosher to hang on to hopes for QB's forever and do agree that you like to see flashes of what could be.  But I think it's way too early on Fields to suggest he's never going to be any good.

[zCommander]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Sure we could have, but again, 20 teams passed on Rodgers.  There wasn't a consensus he was the guy coming out of college.  After he got past SF at #1, he dropped.  I seem to remember ESPN actually escorting him out of the green room so it wouldn't be so publicly painful.  

 

And the guy who we most likely would have picked at #2 over Chase would have been Tua.  Not Herbert.  But Chase was higher on the board than Tua, probably due to injury concerns.

 

Herbert was the 3rd QB taken.  There were a lot of questions whether he would translate to the NFL.  He just has answered all of them.  

 

Carlos Rogers was picked at 9 so really only 8 teams passed over Rodgers. Gibbs shouldn't have. 

 

Again you go QB at #2 and not DE when you need a QB. Even with his so called questionable he was still better than Haskins hands down. I would have taken Herbert but since Ron is a D guy I can see why he would value Chase over Herbert. 

[tomwvr]

On 11/5/2021 at 2:25 PM, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I agree with the entire post, but in regards to the bolded part:

 

Who in the NFL knows TH better than Scott Turner?  He's the entire reason TH is here to begin with.  It's like some folks here believe that Scott Turner is deliberately setting him up to fail, as if that makes sense.  

I’m not doing that I just think when 4 of your 5 starters and one of your backups are out on the Ol and you are getting a lot of pressure you can’t just leave him in the pocket.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

4 minutes ago, tomwvr said:

I’m not doing that I just think when 4 of your 5 starters and one of your backups are out on the Ol and you are getting a lot of pressure you can’t just leave him in the pocket.

You don’t think Turner knows better than you regarding TH’a abilities?

[tomwvr]

5 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

You don’t think Turner knows better than you regarding TH’a abilities?

Did i say that? 
sorry but one thing that this team has such a hard time doing is adjusting to this.

 The oline was devastated in that game. You can’t put a Qb that has accuracy issues, has it beat into his head to not get hurt and is very mobile sit in the pocket to get picked apart .

either move the pocket, roll him out more and run the ball more.

 

and in those roll outs if he can’t be accurate past 5 yards then call 5 yard plays.

 

doing what they did was not the right thing to do 

[Daniel.redskins]

3 hours ago, zskins said:

 

Again you go QB at #2 and not DE when you need a QB. Even with his so called questionable he was still better than Haskins hands down. I would have taken Herbert but since Ron is a D guy I can see why he would value Chase over Herbert. 

That was really our chance to get out of the QB hole.  I think we would have taken Herbert over Tua because of Tua's injury history.  The problem is Dan would have never ever taken a QB.  Haskins was his pick and he was not backing down.  Haskins did play better towards the end of his rookie season, but he was still two strong steps behind Murray and D. Jones.  We can blame Dan for this whole situation.

[Silvernon]

Gibbs could have had another SB if he didn't make the dumbest trade of his career by trading up pre-draft and then not pick the falling 1b QB of the draft at #9. 

 

Let's not talk about the Rogers and Rodgers draft. It upsets me. 

 

On a positive note, there is always the possibility that Rodgers finishes his career here. Maybe 4-5 years, and a SB win (or two) would help me forget. 

[Warhead36]

1 hour ago, Daniel.redskins said:

That was really our chance to get out of the QB hole.  I think we would have taken Herbert over Tua because of Tua's injury history.  The problem is Dan would have never ever taken a QB.  Haskins was his pick and he was not backing down.  Haskins did play better towards the end of his rookie season, but he was still two strong steps behind Murray and D. Jones.  We can blame Dan for this whole situation.

In an alternate timeline, we don't draft Haskins in 2019 and instead draft Brian Burns(the reports were that that was the guy we were targeting and he was literally taken one pick after us). With our 2nd round pick that we traded to move up for Montez Sweat we draft AJ Brown. We wouldn't have Sweat but Burns is a much better player.

 

In 2020 we draft Justin Herbert in the 1st and Jonathan Taylor in the 2nd.

 

Imagine Herbert handing off to Taylor and throwing to Brown and McLaurin. The offense would be set for the next decade.

[kingdaddy]

19 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

The NFL is absolutely so different now. I seriously doubt you'll find any NFL coach who would say differently. It doesn't matter what Gibbs did in the 80s. That was the 80s, this is today, and the game has shifted towards high powered pass-heavy offenses where the QB is absolutely the key and most importat piece and you're basically lost without one.

 

As far as coaching, as has been pointed out in this thread by others, we've had good coaches. But they didn't have good QBs, and a good coach can only do so much without a good QB. Gibbs 2, the Shannahans, Gruden is actually a good play designer and OC (though a lousy HC), Rivera now. All good coaches who are all facing the same problem: no franchise QB. And they knew it. And Rivera knows it. Hell, he's been completely open about knowing it.

 

And yes we might be waiting a while. And that's how it is. Miami swung with Tua and they missed. We swung with Ramsey, Campbell, RG3, Haskins, and missed. What does that mean? It means you try again.

 

As far as winning games with defense sure, it can help. But it's only going to go so far nowadays. It's not the long term answer to a SB (outside of Denver's one-off) or being a perennial contender. A top QB is.

Well we agree that you keep swinging for the QB...should we have outbid the Rams for Stafford, probably. One thing I'll say is, it seems very unfair to pass clear judgement on Heinicke because he hasn't had Logan Thomas, Samuel or a 100% Gibson. His offensive line has lost a pro bowler and the starting left tackle among others and his defense has seriously let him down. You'd have to think most QB's would be doomed with that kind of stuff happening around them. Taylor isn't good enough to overcome all of that misfortune. 

I still believe football is won in the trenches....bigger guys beat up smaller ones. We desperately need a playmaking LB and safety to support the defensive line imo.

I really hope this team plays better after the bye then they did before it....Jacksonville showed it's possible to win games without lighting up the scoreboard.

[PartyPosse]

52 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

In an alternate timeline, we don't draft Haskins in 2019 and instead draft Brian Burns(the reports were that that was the guy we were targeting and he was literally taken one pick after us). With our 2nd round pick that we traded to move up for Montez Sweat we draft AJ Brown. We wouldn't have Sweat but Burns is a much better player.

 

In 2020 we draft Justin Herbert in the 1st and Jonathan Taylor in the 2nd.

 

Imagine Herbert handing off to Taylor and throwing to Brown and McLaurin. The offense would be set for the next decade.

So we'd have drafted AJ Brown in the second and then Terry in the third, but still not have a QB? Makes total sense. And Colt McCoy throwing the ball no less.

 

Even your revisionist hindsight is terrible.

Edited November 9, 2021 by PartyPosse

[CjSuAvE22]

If we don't get Corral I think we have to be thinking left tackle...and maybe take someone who falls to the 2nd or 3rd at qb

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[PartyPosse]

7 minutes ago, CjSuAvE22 said:

If we don't get Corral I think we have to be thinking left tackle...and maybe take someone who falls to the 2nd or 3rd at qb

I don't think it's a strong year for LT. Maybe Neal or Kirkland. It's tricky what we'll do because I don't think this draft is particularly strong in any position. Maybe WR.

[Skinsinparadise]

49 minutes ago, CjSuAvE22 said:

If we don't get Corral I think we have to be thinking left tackle...and maybe take someone who falls to the 2nd or 3rd at qb

 

I was talking about Corral from before the college season started, you would have a hard time finding a bigger fan of him than me.    But if they can't get him, and they decide to skip to the 2nd round and lets say all the guys we talk about are gone -- Rivera would likely be signing his coaching death warrant, it would be the story of the off season here.  Unless they sign a real viable veteran QB.  I laid off Rivera for passing over QB in the last draft even though I had a couple of guys I really wanted them to land.   But if he skips it this time, and instead reaches to the 2nd tier of the Qb class, count me in the crowd that will take shots at him. 

 

From what beat guys have been saying they are happy with Leno and likely will resign him.  If so i am doubting LT is the way they'd go on the off chance they don't go QB.  I'd guess 95% chance they go with Qb in round 1.  But if I had to guess another player, depending on what pick they fall to-- maybe Devin Lloyd, Nakobe Dean, Stingley or Hamilton.    And then go to town on offense in the other rounds. 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 10, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[mistertim]

40 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

Well we agree that you keep swinging for the QB...should we have outbid the Rams for Stafford, probably. One thing I'll say is, it seems very unfair to pass clear judgement on Heinicke because he hasn't had Logan Thomas, Samuel or a 100% Gibson. His offensive line has lost a pro bowler and the starting left tackle among others and his defense has seriously let him down. You'd have to think most QB's would be doomed with that kind of stuff happening around them. Taylor isn't good enough to overcome all of that misfortune. 

I still believe football is won in the trenches....bigger guys beat up smaller ones. We desperately need a playmaking LB and safety to support the defensive line imo.

I really hope this team plays better after the bye then they did before it....Jacksonville showed it's possible to win games without lighting up the scoreboard.

 

Yes Heinicke has lost some weapons (Logan Thomas being the most notable) but swing and a miss on the OL thing. Our OL is one of the bright spots on the team and even with Scherff out has been rated by both PFF and PFN as a top 10 unit through this point in the season. Heinicke has had a better OL than most QBs in the league.

 

As far as the defense, it's been a huge disappointment obviously. That being said, over the last few games it's been the offense that's performed even worse than the defense. Can't blame everything on someone else.

 

I said I'd give Heinicke the full season, and I will. But at this point the current trend is indicating that he likely is what he is: a good backup QB who teams started to successfully neutralize once they had game tape and understood his limitations and how to take advantage of them in their game plans.

[kingdaddy]

25 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Yes Heinicke has lost some weapons (Logan Thomas being the most notable) but swing and a miss on the OL thing. Our OL is one of the bright spots on the team and even with Scherff out has been rated by both PFF and PFN as a top 10 unit through this point in the season. Heinicke has had a better OL than most QBs in the league.

 

As far as the defense, it's been a huge disappointment obviously. That being said, over the last few games it's been the offense that's performed even worse than the defense. Can't blame everything on someone else.

 

I said I'd give Heinicke the full season, and I will. But at this point the current trend is indicating that he likely is what he is: a good backup QB who teams started to successfully neutralize once they had game tape and understood his limitations and how to take advantage of them in their game plans.

You might be right....But, I would argue that TH is somewhat confused at what they want him to be. From what I've read they've asked him to be more of a game manager at times where he says he's more comfortable playing without limitations? I guess what I'm really trying to say is that I'm not sold on our coaches on both sides of the ball. When I see other teams getting better each week while we continue to beat ourselves with dumb mistakes I have to look at the coaching. That's not to say I want RR gone but I think we've got to look at everything including the coaching staff.

Hopefully the bye week helps us get better.

37 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

I don't think it's a strong year for LT. Maybe Neal or Kirkland. It's tricky what we'll do because I don't think this draft is particularly strong in any position. Maybe WR.

Is Cosmi strictly a right tackle? 

[mistertim]

16 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

You might be right....But, I would argue that TH is somewhat confused at what they want him to be. From what I've read they've asked him to be more of a game manager at times where he says he's more comfortable playing without limitations? I guess what I'm really trying to say is that I'm not sold on our coaches on both sides of the ball. When I see other teams getting better each week while we continue to beat ourselves with dumb mistakes I have to look at the coaching. That's not to say I want RR gone but I think we've got to look at everything including the coaching staff.

Hopefully the bye week helps us get better.

 

At some point the excuses are going to have to stop. It's the OL, it's the defense, it's the pass catchers, now it's the coaches. So basically...it's literally everyone except Heinicke himself?

[kingdaddy]

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

 

At some point the excuses are going to have to stop. It's the OL, it's the defense, it's the pass catchers, now it's the coaches. So basically...it's literally everyone except Heinicke himself?

No excuses.....it's a bad team across the board except for the punter. Just pointing out that TH has had very little help. Hell we're on our 3rd kicker through 8 games.

[Renegade7]

14 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

No excuses.....it's a bad team across the board except for the punter. Just pointing out that TH has had very little help. Hell we're on our 3rd kicker through 8 games.

 

Nah, each player is responsible for his individual play, and this can be read like a book by folks like professional scouts and coaches that are paid to do it.  There are factors to why we are not winning, and he is contributing to that, jus like everybody else with his own plays (or lack there of). 

 

It is amazing the amount of Fields is a bust talk there is in here and other threads despite being in a similar situation, but Heinicke is constantly absolved.

 

 

[mistertim]

28 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

No excuses.....it's a bad team across the board except for the punter. Just pointing out that TH has had very little help. Hell we're on our 3rd kicker through 8 games.

 

Of course it's excuses. And he's had help from one of the better OLs in the NFL.

[Skinsinparadise]

14 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Of course it's excuses. And he's had help from one of the better OLs in the NFL.

 

Yep.  I think Heinicke is fine as a backup.  But the sample size IMO is big enough to see that he doesn't have the accuracy or arm strength to be a top half of the league QB.  Keim said in a recent podcast coaches see him as a low tier starter or high end backup. 

 

 

[Conn]

11 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

I was trolling calling him Bustin Fields but he did look a lot better at the end of last night's game.

 

I have a feeling he'll end up not working out only because the Bears will probably fire Nagy and he'll have to learn a new offense and that kinda stuff always messes with young QB development.

Nagy is awful, they need to fire him for Fields to reach his potential. Herbert ended up fine in a similar situation, I know here on ES we’re psychologically wrecked by coaching changes for young QBs but sometimes in the NFL they are good and necessary changes.

[88Comrade2000]

1 hour ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

Nagy is awful, they need to fire him for Fields to reach his potential. Herbert ended up fine in a similar situation, I know here on ES we’re psychologically wrecked by coaching changes for young QBs but sometimes in the NFL they are good and necessary changes.

Nagy will be fired. The Bears aren’t going to waste Fields with him. He’s only the coach now because he made the playoffs last year with an 8-8 record.