The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

Yep I give the Cards a lot of credit, they realized they screwed up with Rosen and immediately changed course.

 

As much as we hate on Snyder, he at the very least understands the importance of QB and has tried his damnedest to get us a franchise one. Yeah he's for the most part picked the wrong guy, but at least he gets it.

 

Yeah Snyder gets the importance.  Tough to miss it with this organization which has probably had the worst run at Qb in the league if you average it all since Rypien's heyday.  Sadly, Snyder has the reverse Midas touch and according to some was a big part of their misses and failures at QB with him taking the lead on wanting Ramsey and Haskins.  And dumping Brad Johnson for Jeff George and trading for McNabb.

 

I still think its funny to read that story about his man crush on Brady Quinn but fortunately that time his scouts talked him out of it. 

 

 

Edited November 8, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Warhead36]

25 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 But the point is that over time the teams that are going to be perennial contenders have top QBs.

^^this this this this

 

Burn it into your heads folks.

 

And the BEST way to get a top QB is to draft one. In the first round.

[Koolblue13]

16 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

^^this this this this

 

Burn it into your heads folks.

 

And the BEST way to get a top QB is to draft one. In the first round.

And then stick with them for a long time and play to their strengths. 

[DWinzit]

6 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

And then stick with them for a long time and play to their strengths. 

And to surround them with good protection, weapons and of course propper knowledgeable support staff....OC, QB coach, good vet QB

[Skinsinparadise]

 

Malik Willis shows flashes, but the inconsistencies remain

 

A game that many NFL evaluators had circled on their calendars coming into the season was the Week 10 showdown between Liberty quarterback Malik Willis and Ole Miss quarterback Matt Corral. Fast forward to this weekend, and the date was finally here. In front of scouts from 16 NFL teams, two of the top signal-callers in the 2022 draft showcased their abilities.

For Willis, this game was reminiscent of Josh Allen's 2017 contest against Iowa. Like Allen at Wyoming, Willis doesn't have a ton of NFL talent around him. And while one game shouldn't overshadow an entire body of work, this was Willis' chance to face off against an SEC opponent and an NFL-equivalent defense.

Willis, a fourth-year junior and Auburn transfer, finished 16-of-23 passing for 173 yards and three interceptions. He had 27 touches on the ground for 71 yards and a touchdown, and he was sacked nine times.

 

An impressive aspect about Willis' performance was his ability to battle through plenty of in-game adversity. Suffering through seven of those sacks in the first half, he continued to battle and played much better in the second half. His natural ability as a runner shined, but his tendency to keep his cape on as a superhero was a gift and a curse. Willis is a gifted runner, but his competitive nature and will as a runner doesn't have an on/off switch.

Talking to three scouts following the game, three different names were shared when asking for an NFL comparison for Willis: Donovan McNabb, Tarvaris Jackson and Justin Fields.

Possessing loads of arm talent, Willis has the ability to play with touch, timing and anticipation to all three levels of the field, but he's still inconsistent from snap to snap. He needs to improve his pre-snap recognition skills, including identifying the placement of safeties in coverage

Even after suffering a 27-14 defeat, Willis flashed his potential, and it's easy to see why there is excitement about his NFL projection. -- Jordan Reid

Edited November 8, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[wit33]

21 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Malik Willis shows flashes, but the inconsistencies remain

 

A game that many NFL evaluators had circled on their calendars coming into the season was the Week 10 showdown between Liberty quarterback Malik Willis and Ole Miss quarterback Matt Corral. Fast forward to this weekend, and the date was finally here. In front of scouts from 16 NFL teams, two of the top signal-callers in the 2022 draft showcased their abilities.

For Willis, this game was reminiscent of Josh Allen's 2017 contest against Iowa. Like Allen at Wyoming, Willis doesn't have a ton of NFL talent around him. And while one game shouldn't overshadow an entire body of work, this was Willis' chance to face off against an SEC opponent and an NFL-equivalent defense.

Willis, a fourth-year junior and Auburn transfer, finished 16-of-23 passing for 173 yards and three interceptions. He had 27 touches on the ground for 71 yards and a touchdown, and he was sacked nine times.

 

An impressive aspect about Willis' performance was his ability to battle through plenty of in-game adversity. Suffering through seven of those sacks in the first half, he continued to battle and played much better in the second half. His natural ability as a runner shined, but his tendency to keep his cape on as a superhero was a gift and a curse. Willis is a gifted runner, but his competitive nature and will as a runner doesn't have an on/off switch.

Talking to three scouts following the game, three different names were shared when asking for an NFL comparison for Willis: Donovan McNabb, Tarvaris Jackson and Justin Fields.

Possessing loads of arm talent, Willis has the ability to play with touch, timing and anticipation to all three levels of the field, but he's still inconsistent from snap to snap. He needs to improve his pre-snap recognition skills, including identifying the placement of safeties in coverage

Even after suffering a 27-14 defeat, Willis flashed his potential, and it's easy to see why there is excitement about his NFL projection. -- Jordan Reid

I don’t like those QB comparisons from a running perspective, are they just throwing out random athletic QBs or does he actually have similar running ability. I was under the impression he was more of a Vick, Murray, and Jackson type. Maybe they’re attempting not to attach him to names that have experienced elite success running. 

Edited November 8, 2021 by wit33

[Skinsinparadise]

1 minute ago, wit33 said:

I don’t like those QB comparisons from a running perspective, are they just throwing out random athletic QBs or does he actually have similar running ability. I was under the impression he was more of a Vick, Murray, and Jackson type. Maybe they’re attempting not to attach him to names that have experienced great success. 

 

I compared his style to Vick but I was mocked by someone for that comparison.  I don't think comparisons matter anyhow.  The question is he a dual threat QB?  No doubt he is. 

Edited November 8, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[wit33]

7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I compared his style to Vick but I was mocked by someone for that comparison.  I don't think comparisons matter anyhow.  The question is he a dual threat QB?  No doubt he is. 

I disagree, the comparisons matter, there will come a day when we the fan rate the level of ability a dual threat QB has and not just lump them all together. Vick, Jackson, and Murray types are on different levels than all others from a running standpoint. If I’m going all in on a dual threat QB, I want him to have running back type traits and movement skills. The idea being,  the team will be elite at running the football. 

Edited November 8, 2021 by wit33

[Skinsinparadise]

5 minutes ago, wit33 said:

I disagree, the comparisons matter, there will come a day when we the fan rate the level of ability a dual threat QB has and not just lump them all together. Vick, Jackson, and Murray types are on different levels than all others from a running standpoint. If I’m going all in on a dual threat QB, I want him to have running back type traits and movement skills. The idea being,  the team will be elite at running the football. 

 

OK, if its important for the FO to nail the best comparison for his running style to the perfect player comparison whether its Michael Vick or name that dude -- than awesome, I don't give a rats behind what the perfect comparsion is.    

 

To bring it to another sport, I don't care if this prospect's curve ball matches a curve ball that is more similar to this pitcher or that pitcher.  I just want a wicked curve ball.  But that's me.   

 

Edited November 8, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[wit33]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

OK, if its important for the FO to nail the best comparison for his running style to the perfect player comparison whether its Michael Vick or name that dude -- than awesome, I don't give a rats behind what the perfect comparsion is.    

 

To bring it to another sport, I don't care if this prospect's curve ball matches a curve ball that is more similar to this pitcher or that pitcher.  I just want a wicked curve ball.  But that's me.   

 

I feel like I’m being attached to other discussions you’ve had or something. I’m sharing there are different level of running QBs and if going in direction of a dual threat guy I’d like a guy RB traits. I’m not necessarily saying he must be this or that guy, but just listing those guys due to their elite RB traits that transferred well to the NFL.
 

Mcnabb, Travarius Jackson, and Justin Fields all don’t have elite RB traits, pretty average, though I’m going off limited exposure to Fields and memory of Jackson. 
 

I don’t know about the dude from Liberty, I was asking if you felt he does have similar RB traits to Vick. I’m much less bullish on a dual threat guy who has average RB traits of all else is the same. 

[Skinsinparadise]

4 minutes ago, wit33 said:

I feel like I’m being attached to other discussions you’ve had or something. I’m sharing there are different level of running QBs and if going in direction of a dual threat guy I’d like a guy RB traits. I’m not necessarily saying he must be this or that guy, but just listing those guys due to their elite RB traits that transferred well to the NFL.

 

lol, it feels like you are the one attaching me to those discussions.   I meant my point exactly the way I made it.  I don't care if a dude matches this player or that player where I can come up with the perfect comp.

 

As for your discussions with I presume other people about whether they have RB traits or not -- that has nothing to do with my point. 

Edited November 8, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[mistertim]

16 minutes ago, wit33 said:

I disagree, the comparisons matter, there will come a day when we the fan rate the level of ability a dual threat QB has and not just lump them all together. Vick, Jackson, and Murray types are on different levels than all others from a running standpoint. If I’m going all in on a dual threat QB, I want him to have running back type traits and movement skills. The idea being,  the team will be elite at running the football. 

 

Murray isn't in the same category as Vick and Jackson. Those guys are running QBs. Murray is primarily a passer but one who can run if need be, ala guys like Mahomes, Allen, Wilson, etc. Huge difference.

 

Willis is a running QB. I don't think the Vick comparison is far off.

[Koolblue13]

He is absolutely Vick. Great elusive runner, giant armed mediocre QB and against Ol Miss he looked exactly like Fields did in his first NFL start.

[Skinsinparadise]

For those who justified Haskins' pick because hey even though some scouts on the team didn't see him as a first rounder and some other teams ditto -- but Dan wasn't crazy to override them because mock drafters had Haskins ranked high.  

 

Well, here's Mike Mayock's drafts.  He got the chance to take his media job to the NFL.  Some considered Mayock the best of the best among the mock draft types.   And heck all these guys have been wildly off plenty of times, heck Mel Kiper was so convinced Jimmy Clausen was a franchise QB that he said he'd quit his job if he ends up wrong.

 

Most of these same guys doubled down that Carolina was genuis to get Sam Darnold.  Ditto the Dolphins for getting Josh Rosen because they were so high on them when they came out in the draft.

 

I don't fault these guys, everyone gets some wrong, I post their stuff all the time but for me its entertainment.  I don't take them as gospel.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 8, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Anselmheifer]

Minus the character, I’d trade the house for Watson and I’d still consider it. I’d even consider parting with Chase. You have nothing without a QB. And this year reinforces how hard it is to consistently win with defense in a league whose rules emphasize offense.

[FootballZombie]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I don't fault these guys, everyone gets some wrong, I post their stuff all the time but for me its entertainment.  I don't take them as gospel.  

 

Ruggs was the first WR off the board too. They didn't even settle for him, they straight up had their pick and wanted him.

 

The draft is a lottery at the end of the day. There will always be a part of me that will greatly prefer us going out and locking down a great vet QB and knowing you solved the problem as opposed to playing the numbers.

 

[Skinsinparadise]

7 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

 

Ruggs was the first WR off the board too. They didn't even settle for him, they straight up had their pick and wanted him.

 

The draft is a lottery at the end of the day. There will always be a part of me that will greatly prefer us going out and locking down a great vet QB and knowing you solved the problem as opposed to playing the numbers.

 

 

No doubt luck is a factor, so I try not to trash picks that were hampered by bad luck.  But Arnette had character red flags.  And on the aggregate, Mayock hasn't exactly killed it with the Raiders.  He's fortunate that he inherited a good QB though.

 

 

 

 

 

[Warhead36]

I wouldn't compare Willis to Vick. Willis is WAY more raw. Vick carried a team to a national title game appearance and was a slam dunk #1 overall pick. I'm not convinced Willis is a top 10 pick. I mean he probably will be but sheerly due to teams being QB desperate.

[Skinsinparadise]

@Alcoholic Zebra and I have mentioned Ryan as an option.  And as I said, Standig mentioned Ryan the other day as potentially best case scenario if they get a veteran.

 

To couch my point so its not taken out of context.  I don't care what veteran they obtain to couple with a rookie if that's the route they go.  the key for me is I want a rookie.

 

But if what some think (some here and some within the media) is true which is Dan has no patience for a down season next year and they got to win immediately.  Matt IMO might end up their best shot.  I don't know for sure if he hits the market.  They do got to take a cap hit but they didn't stop Wentz and Goff from being moved.  

 

Wilson, Watson, Rodgers aren't coming here.  So what veterans are left?  IMO.  Ryan > Fitz.  Ryan > Trubisky.  Ryan > Mariota.  Ryan > Winston.

 

I don't think he's a great QB.  But I think some sleep on him from the context that he's certainly good.  He's in the Kirk and Carr range of QB play IMO.   

 

Do I want to trade for him.  No.  But I am not dictating the patience for the owner.  If Rivera is indeed in a bind on that front, if they can use their first rounder on a rookie and then a different pick on Ryan -- that might be the best plan if the goal is to win some games next year. 

 

In other words, if they have no safety net to bomb next season, I think Ryan has the highest floor among the veteran options in all likelihood. 

 

 

 

Edited November 8, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[wit33]

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

 

Murray isn't in the same category as Vick and Jackson. Those guys are running QBs. Murray is primarily a passer but one who can run if need be, ala guys like Mahomes, Allen, Wilson, etc. Huge difference.

 

Willis is a running QB. I don't think the Vick comparison is far off.

His traits as a runner are like Vick and Jackson is what I’m saying. I agree he’s a better overall passer of the football than those guys. If he didn’t have the ability as a passer he’d still be productive because of his legs. 

 

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

lol, it feels like you are the one attaching me to those discussions.   I meant my point exactly the way I made it.  I don't care if a dude matches this player or that player where I can come up with the perfect comp.

 

As for your discussions with I presume other people about whether they have RB traits or not -- that has nothing to do with my point. 

I’ve been more in question form and haven’t engaged with anyone on the guy from Liberty. I too can careless if the dude matches up with another guy, it’s the idea of the level of runner the individual is. Similar to one thinking one passer throws with anticipation versus another who doesn’t, or one with an elite arm versus average etc..

[Conn]

Yeah idk what the miscommunication is here, seems to me like you’re saying there’s a big difference between being classified as a McNabb-type dual-threat and a Vick/Lamar-type dual-threat. And there is a huge difference. So seeing a McNabb/Fields comp for a guy who seemed on the higher end of that spectrum is surprising. And it does matter, even if the “exact” player comp doesn’t. 

[method man]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

For those who justified Haskins' pick because hey even though some scouts on the team didn't see him as a first rounder and some other teams ditto -- but Dan wasn't crazy to override them because mock drafters had Haskins ranked high.  

 

Well, here's Mike Mayock's drafts.  He got the chance to take his media job to the NFL.  Some considered Mayock the best of the best among the mock draft types.   And heck all these guys have been wildly off plenty of times, heck Mel Kiper was so convinced Jimmy Clausen was a franchise QB that he said he'd quit his job if he ends up wrong.

 

Most of these same guys doubled down that Carolina was genuis to get Sam Darnold.  Ditto the Dolphins for getting Josh Rosen because they were so high on them when they came out in the draft.

 

I don't fault these guys, everyone gets some wrong, I post their stuff all the time but for me its entertainment.  I don't take them as gospel.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

It’s been reported that Gruden overrode Mayock a lot regarding the draft and made a number of these choices

[mistertim]

2 hours ago, Anselmheifer said:

Minus the character, I’d trade the house for Watson and I’d still consider it. I’d even consider parting with Chase. You have nothing without a QB. And this year reinforces how hard it is to consistently win with defense in a league whose rules emphasize offense.

 

There is no "minus the character." It's a huge part of the whole issue. It's also not just an ethical problem. Depending on how things go with his cases and investigations, the NFL could punish him, including suspending him for a season.

 

But all of this is also moot from the jump, because Watson has a no-trade clause in his contract. That means he gets to decide where he'll be traded. There's almost zero chance that we're on his list. Same with Wilson. No-trade clause and almost no chance he'd agree to come here.

 

So honestly even talking about either of those guys coming here is as much of a pipe dream as hoping that KC decides to offer Mahomes to us. It's not going to happen. Move on.

Edited November 8, 2021 by mistertim

[88Comrade2000]

Just think if Gibbs took Big Ben instead of Sean Taylor; would things have gone differently?

[Voice_of_Reason]

17 minutes ago, Rdskns2000 said:

Just think if Gibbs took Big Ben instead of Sean Taylor; would things have gone differently?

Or if the Packers decided not to pick Rodgers when they still had Favre, and let him slip 1 more pick to us, and Gibbs WAS going to pick Rodgers if he was there.  Then they traded for JC.

 

The one thing we'll never know about Rodgers, though: Would he have had the success he had if he had to start right away.  He had literally 4 off-seasons to learn the offense, practice, and watch Favre.  I have to think that was beneficial to him.

 

If he gets thrown in here into the Gibbs offense, pressed to start early, would he have developed the same way?  Unclear.  Maybe.  But maybe not.  

 

The environment (coaching staff, culture, philosophy, etc.) really does have a lot to do with developing players.  If it was Gibbs 1.0, I'd say they would have become the Patriots. Maybe it works really well, and Gibbs sticks around and doesn't retire, and Zorn never happens.  Gibbs II?  Eh... I'm not so sure.  And I don't think even Rodgers could have saved Zorn.  Though a Rodgers/Shanahan pairing ... I mean, he's got Shanny light with LaFleur now, and it's working pretty well.