The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[London Kev]

11 minutes ago, mistertim said:

I'm actually switching to a plant based diet soon.

 

 

I have 3 of them in my grow tent right now. 😃

 

I've been off the "plants" for about a year now. I keep telling myself how much better I feel, but I know that I'm lying.

[Koolblue13]

Enjoy hell sinners. All potted up on your devil lettuce. I'm shocked you can even internet. 

[mistertim]

12 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Enjoy hell sinners. All potted up on your devil lettuce. I'm shocked you can even internet. 

 

[Warhead36]

Two examples of how important QB play is in today's games.

 

First the Ravens games. They got like 20 guys on IR, their D is poop now, but with Lamar Jackson they have a chance in every game.

 

Conversely the Packers without Rodgers look terrible. With him and no weapons they went into Arizona and won. Without him and all their weapons they're getting shut out by a historically bad defense.

 

Football is an individual sport. Literally no other position matters. Get a QB.

[Skinsinparadise]

It could be worse...

 

 

 

Carolina’s coaching staff and front office isn’t trying to get themselves out of a bad hand dealt by someone else: This is a sticky wicket of their own creation. The Panthers traded a sixth-round draft pick in the 2021 draft, as well as a second- and fourth-round selection in the 2022 draft, for Darnold in early April. Later that month, the team sent 2020 starter Teddy Bridgwater to the Broncos for just a sixth-round pick. Those moves came after the Panthers had coached Alabama quarterback Mac Jones at the Senior Bowl—a player Rhule said this week he “knew was going to be a longtime pro” after that game. That was with the eighth overall pick already in hand and Jones, Justin Fields, and Trey Lance all potentially on the board. On the season, Bridgewater ranks seventh in EPA per play, Jones ranks 19th, and Darnold is 27th. Make no bones about it: The Panthers had a plethora of quarterback options on the table. They chose Darnold.

The Panthers’ endeavor to secure Darnold as their starting quarterback doesn’t so much put his poor play into focus, but rather the Panthers’ gross misstep. What, in Darnold’s play through the first half of the season, could possibly have taken this coaching staff and front office by surprise? The mistake-riddled, unexplosive passing attack captained by Darnold in 2021 is precisely the mistake-riddled, unexplosive passing attack he captained for each of the past three seasons. Yet somehow, the Panthers have gone from wanting this player, to wanting anyone but this player.

Edited November 8, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

Two examples of how important QB play is in today's games.

 

First the Ravens games. They got like 20 guys on IR, their D is poop now, but with Lamar Jackson they have a chance in every game.

 

Conversely the Packers without Rodgers look terrible. With him and no weapons they went into Arizona and won. Without him and all their weapons they're getting shut out by a historically bad defense.

 

Football is an individual sport. Literally no other position matters. Get a QB.

 

As the PFF and Foottball Outsiders guys have pointed out, its tough to produce a consistently good defense.  Some teams have pulled that off, see Pitt, Baltimore but for the most part its hard to do.  Good offenses tend to be more consistent from year to year.  Look at this team and SF this season with their vaunted D lines.  

 

It's an offense-Qb driven league.   As an ex-GM said on a recent podcast you don't build teams anymore where most of your salary and draft capital go to defense -- that's old school.  Today's NFL is an offense dominated league.  That GM was critical about this approach adopted here and they cited that part of the reason why its not won.

 

Dane Brugler did a podcast the other day with Standig saying we've botched it at QB and you got to keep swinging at QB -- see Arizona. 

 

It's nice to have a good defense, so don't get me wrong I want good players on both sides of the ball, but the offense/Qb is more important.  

Edited November 8, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[moondog]

Maybe we should have offered more for Matt stafford…

 

…he still would have declined it and gone to our former OC’s team lol

[VaK9Trainer]

My plan for QB since right now we don't have anyone in-house that excites me at all.  I'd sign Trubisky in the off season and if available, draft Matt Corral from Ole Miss and let them battle it out for who starts. In a perfect world you go with Trubisky to start and bring Corral along slowly but if Trubisky bombs then hopefully you have something with Corral, if not in the beginning, then at least someone to develop who has talent. 

[Warhead36]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

As the PFF and Foottball Outsiders guys have pointed out, its tough to produce a consistently good defense.  Some teams have pulled that off, see Pitt, Baltimore but for the most part its hard to do.  Good offenses tend to be more consistent from year to year.  Look at this team and SF this season with their vaunted D lines.  

 

It's an offense-Qb driven league.   As an ex-GM said on a recent podcast you don't build teams anymore where most of your salary and draft capital go to defense -- that's old school.  Today's NFL is an offense dominated league.  That GM was critical about this approach adopted here and they cited that part of the reason why its not won.

 

Dane Brugler did a podcast the other day with Standig saying we've botched it at QB and you got to keep swinging at QB -- see Arizona. 

 

It's nice to have a good defense, so don't get me wrong I want good players on both sides of the ball, but the offense/Qb is more important.  

You're right about defense being volatile. The Ravens actually aren't that good this year on D but that's largely due to injuries. The Steelers seem to be the only exception, they just draft and develop talent on D so well but they had that stretch in the 2015-2017 ish era where they were winning because of their offense and their defense stunk. And on the flip side if you're bad on defense, its really easy to turn it around the next year(see the Cowboys this year, or heck even us from 2019 to 2020).

 

Good offenses are consistent year to year because you really just need a QB. Everything else is more or less replaceable. Brady had squadoosh at receiver other than Gronk at TE but won a lot. Brees had a who's who's list of random receivers but won a lot. You get a QB and even average receivers can look good. Heck look at what our boy Cousins did in 2017, I think our best receiver that year was like Jamison freaking Crowder and he still had a big statistical year.

 

Get a QB. Literally nothing else matters. You can have JAGs at every other position.

[HigSkin]

 

[frontline205]

5 minutes ago, HigSkin said:

 

Wow we’re pretty high up there. For all our faults it’s rare Washington has an online that’s just plain bad. We need a QB who can sit in the pocket and get the ball out quick. It sounds like that’s what Scott Turner is really looking for, and tries to get Heineke to be. Mac Jones probably would’ve worked out really well for us. 

Edited November 8, 2021 by frontline205

[FootballZombie]

2 hours ago, frontline205 said:

We need a QB who can sit in the pocket and get the ball out quick.

 

You would think any QB would be pretty decent behind an elite Oline play. Maybe not great, but at least functional enough to stay in games..

 

I honestly believed that before this season. My mindset has completely changed on the subject.

[Going Commando]

12 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

Football is an individual sport. Literally no other position matters. Get a QB.

 

Then how do you explain the Titans beating the **** out of the Rams?  Football is absolutely not an individual sport.

[kingdaddy]

11 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

As the PFF and Foottball Outsiders guys have pointed out, its tough to produce a consistently good defense.  Some teams have pulled that off, see Pitt, Baltimore but for the most part its hard to do.  Good offenses tend to be more consistent from year to year.  Look at this team and SF this season with their vaunted D lines.  

 

It's an offense-Qb driven league.   As an ex-GM said on a recent podcast you don't build teams anymore where most of your salary and draft capital go to defense -- that's old school.  Today's NFL is an offense dominated league.  That GM was critical about this approach adopted here and they cited that part of the reason why its not won.

 

Dane Brugler did a podcast the other day with Standig saying we've botched it at QB and you got to keep swinging at QB -- see Arizona. 

 

It's nice to have a good defense, so don't get me wrong I want good players on both sides of the ball, but the offense/Qb is more important.  

Without question having a QB is the most important position on the field, however, yesterday showed that teams built solidly across the board can more than play with teams that have franchise QB's. For me, the most important element of a good football team is coaching. Look what Vrabel is doing in Tennessee....no franchise QB there and he just ran the table vs. KC, Buffalo, Rams.......We all want the QB but they are hard to find as we all know, especially those of us who've been fans since the 70's. I hope we find the franchise QB but I hope more that we have the right coaching in place. I have faith in RR.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, kingdaddy said:

Without question having a QB is the most important position on the field, however, yesterday showed that teams built solidly across the board can more than play with teams that have franchise QB's. For me, the most important element of a good football team is coaching. Look what Vrabel is doing in Tennessee....no franchise QB there and he just ran the table vs. KC, Buffalo, Rams.......We all want the QB but they are hard to find as we all know, especially those of us who've been fans since the 70's. I hope we find the franchise QB but I hope more that we have the right coaching in place. I have faith in RR.

 

 

In the NFL, every week can be wild.  Randomly a Jag can win some games at QB.  It happens every week,  Take Colt McCoy.  He had big wins with his last three teams.  Helping if i recall beating Romo in Dallas. Russell Wilson in Seattle when he was with the Giants and yesterday beating SF.    But it doesn't last.  the mark of a good team and a good player is consistency.  I think any team can beat just about anyone on any given Sunday.  But over a season it evens out -- the good teams tend to win more and the bad teams lose more.  But every week you get exceptions to that.   

 

We've fed some of our optimism over the years over one off wins.  Remember the MNF win over the Raiders when some thought the Raiders were really good.   Beating the Packers also on MNF.    We've had some odd wins that some felt were signature at the time but ended up being just examples of odd victories that happen in the NFL with just about every team. 

 

I think Rivera is the right coach.  But IMO the QB is as important, maybe even more.  Belichick fell back to earth when he played with a broken down Cam.  Now, he's a smart dude again with Mac Jones.    Sean Payton's team isn't the same without Brees.  We can go on and on.

 

In short, i believe you need BOTH a QB and a good coach. 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 8, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

 

Football is the most lopsided sport as for the value of one player -- the QB.       Heck I recall being in the UK once, picked up a book about American football and they made fun about how dependant it is on one player which makes it odd versus their football (soccer).  They are right.

 

It's a cliche that QB is the most important position in sports.  So the value of it is tremendous.

 

Yes you can win some odd games with Jags at QB.  Yes a mediocre Qb can get hot out of the blue and win some games.  Yes a team with a good QB can beat a team with a great QB.  But overall that one variable about having a QB, especially if its a great QB, obviously has a major impact on games in a way that other positions don't match. 

Edited November 8, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Warhead36]

1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Then how do you explain the Titans beating the **** out of the Rams?  Football is absolutely not an individual sport.

Both QBs stunk in that game so yeah sure in those circumstances anything can happen. Same reason the Bills lost to the Jags, because Josh Allen was bad. Broncos beat the Cowboys because Bridgewater played well and Dak was bad.

 

 

37 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Football is the most lopsided sport as for the value of one player -- the QB.       Heck I recall being in the UK once, picked up a book about American football and they made fun about how dependant it is on one player which makes it odd versus their football (soccer).  They are right.

 

It's a cliche that QB is the most important position in sports.  So the value of it is tremendous.

 

Yes you can win some odd games with Jags at QB.  Yes a mediocre Qb can get hot out of the blue and win some games.  Yes a team with a good QB can beat a team with a great QB.  But overall that one variable about having a QB, especially if its a great QB, obviously has a major impact on games in a way that other positions don't match. 

This is 120% correct. When I say football is an individual sport this is what I mean. Of course its not literally an individual sport, but the QB is so much more valuable than any other position its absurd. You can literally have all pros at every position on your offense like the Packers and Cowboys and it doesn't matter if your QB play is bad.

 

There is no such thing as "buliding up your roster and then getting a QB." Get the QB.

[Skinsinparadise]

5 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

 

There is no such thing as "buliding up your roster and then getting a QB." Get the QB.

 

No doubt that a good supporting cast can prop up a QB.  But IMO the harder thing by a mile is finding that QB, so if you can get one go grab them.  Cardinals shot for it twice.  their supporting cast stunk.  I was in Arizona and watched our team smoke them.   But the next season they got Kyler Murray.  They weren't hot right away but were much better than the season before.  This off season they loaded him with a supporting cast.  Now they look unstoppable. 

 

 

 

Edited November 8, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Warhead36]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

No doubt that a good supporting cast can prop up a QB.  But IMO the harder thing by a mile is finding that QB, so if you can get one go grab them.  Cardinals shot for it twice.  their supporting cast stunk.  I was in Arizona and watched our team smoke them.   But the next season they got Kyler Murray.  This off season they loaded him with a supporting cast.

 

 

 

Yep I give the Cards a lot of credit, they realized they screwed up with Rosen and immediately changed course.

 

As much as we hate on Snyder, he at the very least understands the importance of QB and has tried his damnedest to get us a franchise one. Yeah he's for the most part picked the wrong guy, but at least he gets it.

[kingdaddy]

1 minute ago, Warhead36 said:

Both QBs stunk in that game so yeah sure in those circumstances anything can happen. Same reason the Bills lost to the Jags, because Josh Allen was bad. Broncos beat the Cowboys because Bridgewater played well and Dak was bad.

 

 

There's always a way to spin it isn't there? Fact is that the Titans just ran the table on Mahomes, Allen and now Stafford and they've done it mostly with an average QB, a beast of a running back and an aggressive defense all while having the most injuries in the NFL. Explain that. It's coaching, scheme and overall depth. Put Tannehill on the WFT and he is what he is, average, but we are not much better. 

No doubt having a franchise QB is a difference maker in the NFL but football is won in the trenches. Arizona crushed SF by controlling both side of the LOS. Ditto Tennessee over the Rams and Denver over Dallas. The Cowboys, with all of their offensive stars, were shutout for most of yesterday's game....I believe it was 30-0 at one point. That's Denver with Ted Bridgewater QBing them.

My point is, just follow the Titans script and you will have a very solid football team year in and year out. The Steelers are another good example. Last year they sucked cause they couldn't run the ball, this year they are getting back to physical, smashmouth  football and it's working for them again. Cleveland with Nick Chubb running the ball is a very good team when they stick to him and don't put it all on Baker.

One thing I'm seeing out of New England and Denver and some other teams is improvement as the season is going on. I'd like to see that out of our team moving forward. We need to show up and fight against Tampa Bay. Get to Brady and set the tone. It has to start somewhere.

[Warhead36]

3 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

There's always a way to spin it isn't there? Fact is that the Titans just ran the table on Mahomes, Allen and now Stafford and they've done it mostly with an average QB, a beast of a running back and an aggressive defense all while having the most injuries in the NFL. Explain that. It's coaching, scheme and overall depth. Put Tannehill on the WFT and he is what he is, average, but we are not much better. 

No doubt having a franchise QB is a difference maker in the NFL but football is won in the trenches. Arizona crushed SF by controlling both side of the LOS. Ditto Tennessee over the Rams and Denver over Dallas. The Cowboys, with all of their offensive stars, were shutout for most of yesterday's game....I believe it was 30-0 at one point. That's Denver with Ted Bridgewater QBing them.

My point is, just follow the Titans script and you will have a very solid football team year in and year out. The Steelers are another good example. Last year they sucked cause they couldn't run the ball, this year they are getting back to physical, smashmouth  football and it's working for them again. Cleveland with Nick Chubb running the ball is a very good team when they stick to him and don't put it all on Baker.

One thing I'm seeing out of New England and Denver and some other teams is improvement as the season is going on. I'd like to see that out of our team moving forward. We need to show up and fight against Tampa Bay. Get to Brady and set the tone. It has to start somewhere.

The Titans are a good team, but you're not giving Tannehill enough credit. He is a legit damn good QB. Fringe top 10 in the league.

 

Look at the teams that contend for Super Bowls year in year out. They all have a legitimate QB.

 

We're trying the build up the roster approach and it hasn't net us squat.

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

The Titans are a good team, but you're not giving Tannehill enough credit. He is a legit damn good QB. Fringe top 10 in the league.

 

Look at the teams that contend for Super Bowls year in year out. They all have a legitimate QB.

 

We're trying the build up the roster approach and it hasn't net us squat.

Our starting QB and his back up were both injured, so we went with a guy previously out of the league and apparently, for good reason.

 

I'd say it's hard to gauge us as a complete team based solely off our record. We leave a ton of points on the board every week.

[NewCliche21]

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

There is no such thing as "buliding up your roster and then getting a QB." Get the QB.

 

I dunno, I think the offensive line matters.  Put a king in a castle, because a king without a castle is Derek Carr and Patrick Ramsey.

Other than that, I agree.  And I feel our line is castle-enough.

6 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Our starting QB and his back up were both injured, so we went with a guy previously out of the league and apparently, for good reason.

 

I'd say it's hard to gauge us as a complete team based solely off our record. We leave a ton of points on the board every week.

 

It's a group project, everyone gets the same grade, and right now that grade is a 25%.  We leave SO MUCH on the field, and teams that win just don't do that.  We've a failing grade because we're failing.

[Koolblue13]

6 minutes ago, NewCliche21 said:

 

I dunno, I think the offensive line matters.  Put a king in a castle, because a king without a castle is Derek Carr and Patrick Ramsey.

Other than that, I agree.  And I feel our line is castle-enough.

 

It's a group project, everyone gets the same grade, and right now that grade is a 25%.  We leave SO MUCH on the field, and teams that win just don't do that.  We've a failing grade because we're failing.

I don't disagree really. We are who we are, but you can see what is lacking on offense and it starts and ends with the QB position right now. 

 

I'd love to have a RB1 and a better WR2 right now, but it hardly changes anything without the QB. If Fitz had stayed healthy, we could be a winning team with less injuries.

 

Instead, we are a loser, but you can't say simply judge a team as a collective. Not even by position groups really.

 

In the same post you just said the Oline is good, but then say everyone fails. 

[mistertim]

2 hours ago, kingdaddy said:

There's always a way to spin it isn't there? Fact is that the Titans just ran the table on Mahomes, Allen and now Stafford and they've done it mostly with an average QB, a beast of a running back and an aggressive defense all while having the most injuries in the NFL. Explain that. It's coaching, scheme and overall depth. Put Tannehill on the WFT and he is what he is, average, but we are not much better. 

No doubt having a franchise QB is a difference maker in the NFL but football is won in the trenches. Arizona crushed SF by controlling both side of the LOS. Ditto Tennessee over the Rams and Denver over Dallas. The Cowboys, with all of their offensive stars, were shutout for most of yesterday's game....I believe it was 30-0 at one point. That's Denver with Ted Bridgewater QBing them.

My point is, just follow the Titans script and you will have a very solid football team year in and year out. The Steelers are another good example. Last year they sucked cause they couldn't run the ball, this year they are getting back to physical, smashmouth  football and it's working for them again. Cleveland with Nick Chubb running the ball is a very good team when they stick to him and don't put it all on Baker.

One thing I'm seeing out of New England and Denver and some other teams is improvement as the season is going on. I'd like to see that out of our team moving forward. We need to show up and fight against Tampa Bay. Get to Brady and set the tone. It has to start somewhere.

 

By "follow the Titans script" do you mean find a borderline top 10 QB and an unstoppable All Pro running back?

 

I know that nobody here is going to convince you. You miss the 70s and 80s "pound the rock, control the clock and have a stingy defense" style of football, but it's not the way the game is today. It's an offense-centric pass-happy QB driven league. And pretty much every single coach and team knows and admits this.

 

These games you cite are fine and all. So are the others that people might bring up. But the point is that over time the teams that are going to be perennial contenders have top QBs. Sure, you can put together a stacked defense with a good supporting case and mediocre QB on offense and win for a little while. But it's not sustainable. Nowadays you're simply not going to be able to keep dominant units together over time. We've seen this over and over. The only exception seems to be the Steelers and maybe Ravens.

 

The QB absolutely has to come first. Not realizing that is simply not living in reality. And if you fail when you draft one high, you turn around keep trying until you find one. An elite QB gives you a good 10-15 year window for SB wins so you can rebuild around him multiple times (on offense and defense). A dominant defense and decent offense with a decent QB will possibly give you a 2-3 year window.