The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[philibusters]

3 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I agree with you that QB record is generally a very faulty stat, that lacks context, nuance, etc.

 

For TH, he’s always been pretty bad a few really good plays/moments aside, overall pretty bad.  The difference over the last several games is he’s turning it over in places you can’t turn it over and the D hasn’t been as good as it was during the win streak.

 

But as for the Vikings, their defense is absolutely god awful - if anything they are the anchor of that team.  We are practically the only team in months that hasn’t moved the ball at will and scored on them.  Their OL has also been beat up.  I’d argue Cousins is having perhaps his best season ever, stats be damned.  Every single game aside from that Dallas game that I’ve watched, he’s been dealing and willing to get blasted for the sake of firing lasers.  Dude deserves all the credit he’s been getting.

In terms of Heincke, I don't think the turnover worthy plays are really worse.  He got a little bit lucky in early starts with the percentage of his turnover worthy plays that were actually becoming turnovers. When  you count plays negated by penalties I think he had 6 turnover worthy plays against Green Bay (2 fumbles and 4 passes) and only 1 I think become a turnover.   However, that percentage is reverting to the mean.   I think there was one point where Heincke and Wentz both had the same amount of turnover worthy passes (maybe 10) according to PFF and Wentz had 6 interceptions and Heincke had 2 interceptions.  Lately the luck has not been with Heincke side, but he is still the same player.  He is not really playing worse in my opinion, just not getting the breaks he got earlier.

 

Regarding Minnesota, you guys are right to say that I was probably wrong to say defense improvement was part of their improved success, but for what its worth their defensive scoring numbers have improved.  Last year they gave up 25.1 points per game and this year they are at 24.9.  I think last year, Cousins had a decent year, but a bad defense hid it.  This year I think he has taken a step back, but the offense as a whole is doing well and they have some luck in close games.

[The Hangman- C_Hanburger]

Anybody think the Jet's Wilson is salvageable next season for a flier? What happened to that guy?

[CjSuAvE22]

2 minutes ago, The Hangman- C_Hanburger said:

Anybody think the Jet's Wilson is salvageable next season for a flier? What happened to that guy?

Nope. Unfortunately for them he’s a bust

[method man]

6 minutes ago, The Hangman- C_Hanburger said:

Anybody think the Jet's Wilson is salvageable next season for a flier? What happened to that guy?

Agreed. Bad combo of entitlement/attitude we didn’t really know about and an absolutely inability to handle pressure and the blitz. I think he gets cut because no team will want to take on his inflated base salary

[philibusters]

13 minutes ago, The Hangman- C_Hanburger said:

Anybody think the Jet's Wilson is salvageable next season for a flier? What happened to that guy?

 

I'd take a pass on Wilson.   Never say never, but he is really struggling in the pocket.

[Chump Bailey]

Zach Wilson - another whiff for yours truly. He's got the arm talent, but he needs to shake off the mental monkeys weighing him down. He might make for a good reclamation project for some team & coach. 

[Tonysoprano1]

The problem isn't having TH on our roster, or any NFL roster for that matter, he does bring some things to the table. The problem is he's a backup....he'll make some good plays then cancel them out with some bad ones. Look at yesterday, some great throws, then some God awful ones that should have been intercepted. He can't g to the next level above average, and any team that depends on him to do so will fail miserably.

[FLSkinz83]

I can't wait for the debates next week on if all the sacks Wentz takes are because of the O-Line or Wentz.   I'm pretty sure I'll be defending Wentz.  

 

It's ironic that TH is going to get benched after playing his best game.   

[88Comrade2000]

2 hours ago, CommanderInTheRye said:

 

 

Money trump's familiarity 9 times out of 10.

 

Assuming Carr is made available.

 

If past is indeed prologue one thing that history has proved is that Bezos usually gets what he wants.

 

Only questions remaining:

1. Will Dan sell to Bezos if he is the highest bidder?

2. Will the sale be finalized in time for free agency?

3. Would the newly installed Bezos brain trust make Carr their top priority?

 

 

.

 

The nfl isn’t going to rush approve, even if Bezos.  The earliest an approval happens is March owners meetings. My guess free agency will likely be a week or two in, before the change happens.

 

Now, if the team is sold but not approved yet before free agency; the new boss could tell Ron this is what he wants done.

2 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

I can't wait for the debates next week on if all the sacks Wentz takes are because of the O-Line or Wentz.   I'm pretty sure I'll be defending Wentz.  

 

It's ironic that TH is going to get benched after playing his best game.   

Well, he earned his benching.

Edited December 25, 2022 by 88Comrade2000

[CommanderInTheRye]

2 hours ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

Wentz has shown who he is. I don’t expect that to change over the course of two games, and I don’t think he’s here next year. 
 

Roll the dice again on a vet next year, but no need to double down on a move that didn’t work out. 

 

 

Not so sure it's an open and shut case.

 

I think if Wentz wins the next two games and looks good doing so AND here's the big if--

 

If he leads the team to at least one playoff win he will likely be resigned in the off season to a team friendly deal, that we can get out of, if necessary, without major cap consequences in 2 or 3 years.

[FLSkinz83]

Why would a top veteran QB want to play behind this O-Line and for Turner?    

[Skinsinparadise]

18 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

I can't wait for the debates next week on if all the sacks Wentz takes are because of the O-Line or Wentz.   I'm pretty sure I'll be defending Wentz.  

 

It's ironic that TH is going to get benched after playing his best game.   

 

For a dude defending Wentz you were talking up his success yesterday as garbage time stats, implying its a bogus excuse for Rivera to say we are going to Wentz now and last week you were cherry picking his last 4 games to generalize his play (he was better as we know in the earlier games) including his last game that he played with a broken finger.

 

I know you were good with the deal in the off season and so was I.  I think i have been a bit kinder to Carson of late than you've been albeit I got my doubts about him and big time so.  Having said that I think most people here aren't high on Heinicke or Wentz.  Feels like on your end its to prop Heinicke or slam Turner or maybe both. 

 

Your point that you dance around with is Heinicke could be the guy but we wouldn't know if not for Turner and the O line.  You back off of that at times but most of your points imply that and imply we can't see it because we are lost in the fog and can't isolate Heinicke as its variable on it's own.  If Taylor had a clean pocket, if he had a better play caller we'd be singing a different song.

 

For me and I think for most its easy.

 

A.  Bad accuracy

B.  Bad arm strength

C.  Turnover prone

D.  Small build for the position.

 

He could have the Eagles O line and be playing for Kyle Shanahan and we still will want to move on from him. 

 

 

Edited December 25, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[FLSkinz83]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

For a dude defending Wentz you were talking up his success yesterday as garbage time stats and last week you were cherry picking his last 4 games to generalize his play (he was better as we know in the earlier games) including his last game that he played with a broken finger.

 

I know you were good with the deal in the off season and so was I.  I think i have been among a bit kinder to Carson of late than you've been.  Having said that I think most people here aren't high on Heinicke or Wentz.

 

Your point that you dance around with is Heincike could be the guy but we wouldn't know if not for Turner and the O line.  You back off of that at times but most of your points imply that and imply we can't see it because we are lost in the fog and can't isolate Heinicke as its variable on it's own.

 

For me and I think for most its easy.

 

A.  Bad accuracy

B.  Bad arm strength

C.  Turnover prone

D.  Small build for the position.

 

He could be playing for Kyle Shanahan and we still will want to move on from him. 

 

 

 

You're not seeing the forest through the trees.

 

I take nothing from Wentz yesterday...good or bad.  Glad he got some reps in.

 

I was not bashing Wentz for his last 4 games.  I was bashing Turner and the O-Line....we should include the TE's as well.

 

You are correct about my main theme...Turner and the O-Line/TE are the primary issues.....a great QB can mask some of it, maybe a lot of it.....But it's a lot easier to upgrade the Line and the Coordinator than it is to find a top 10 caliber QB.  

[Koolblue13]

10 hours ago, zCommander said:

 

 

I ****ing love this dude. haha

[NickyJ]

Merry Wentzmas and Happy Howelldays, my dudes.

Edited December 25, 2022 by NickyJ

[Ball Security]

People talk about bringing Carson back on a reduced deal.  What does that even look like? We were the only team willing to take him on at his current contact plus picks.  If we want to bring him back for, say $10-15M, whose to say that other teams won’t be in on him at that price point?

[FLSkinz83]

1 minute ago, Ball Security said:

People talk about bringing Carson back on a reduced deal.  What does that even look like? We were the only team willing to take him on at his current contact plus picks.  If we want to bring him back for, say $10-15M, whose to say that other teams won’t be in on him at that price point?

 

I can a scenario where they tell him to take a pay cut in that 10-15 mil range and in exchange, they allow him to be a FA after next year.    He currently has 2 years left on his deal. 

[Skinsinparadise]

25 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

You're not seeing the forest through the trees.

 

I take nothing from Wentz yesterday...good or bad.  Glad he got some reps in.

 

I was not bashing Wentz for his last 4 games.  I was bashing Turner and the O-Line....we should include the TE's as well.

 

You are correct about my main theme...Turner and the O-Line/TE are the primary issues.....a great QB can mask some of it, maybe a lot of it.....But it's a lot easier to upgrade the Line and the Coordinator than it is to find a top 10 caliber QB.  

 

Doesn't actually sound like I am missing the forest for the trees at all.  This post seems like I nailed your thoughts.

 

A. Rivera bad

B. Turner bad

C. O line bad

D.  Heinicke might be good.  

 

We are lost on point D because you got a handle on the A, B, C, and can factor that context in D.  But others like myself struggle with seeing the full picture.

 

 Last night in the fit of venting that many of us do post game, me including you were hitting things that others weren't from what I recall, so tough to forget.

 

Your posts included

 

A. LB depth bemoaning this smack after the game was over.  It's cool but LB depth I don't think most are citing as a key narrative for the loss yesterday.  Thats just a shot at Rivera.  I know that from our FO debate earlier that day. 

 

B.  Mocking Wentz's performance because it was garbage time and Rivera using it as a false excuse to bench Heinicke.

 

C.  Today mocking the idea of benching Heinicke after according to you his "best game"

 

Just on an aside, and I am far from a Wentz apologist, I was listening to Keim this morning and he mentioned that the 49ers just blitzed the heck out of Wentz last night.  I wasn't really paying attention to it.  But he thought on that first drive it was a good test for him. He was finding the right receiving outlet during the blitzes, etc.

 

Look we all have a right to our takes so I got no problem with anyone who sees things different.  I am just accusing you of one thing.  Do you really want to see Wentz look successful?  Your posts allude to not really.  I don't doubt you liked the trade.  I recall you did.  But you come off a bit too much in the tank for Heinicke and too opposed to Turner for Wentz to come in now and look good.  It feels like you are rooting against Wentz now -- and maybe you don't see it consciously but its just subconscious?  Because it's not hard for me to pick that up in your posts.  I agree you got nothing against Wentz. 

 

But Wentz succeeding flies against the other points you make.  You are already painting this point in the reverse way with your posts referencing that we will give excuses for Wentz.

 

 

Edited December 25, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Warhead36]

40 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

Why would a top veteran QB want to play behind this O-Line and for Turner?    

O-Line can be rebuilt, and I don't think QBs care too much who their OC is. I mean Brady played the last couple years for Byron Leftwich who is actually substantially worse than Turner. Peyton Manning played for Adam Gase. And I think the Rivera factor would trump that. Guys seem to like playing for him.

 

With our WR trio and RB duo, we are quite the attractive location. I just don't think there will be any good veterans left. I've been a Carr fan but I'm souring on him, he had another bad game yesterday.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

56 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

I can't wait for the debates next week on if all the sacks Wentz takes are because of the O-Line or Wentz.   I'm pretty sure I'll be defending Wentz.  

 

Who has been defending the OL?  If there is anything I think we can all agree on, it’s that the offensive line is bad.

 

We were told Heinicke is the best option because he makes quicker decisions, has better pocket presence and evades pressure far better than Wentz.  Oh, and the team just plays harder for him. 😭

 

The Heinicke we’ve seen of late is not making quick decisions, he’s patting the ball rather than hitting the streaking receivers, and taking on unneeded pressure in doing so.  He’s not identifying pressure pre snap and he has zero awareness of it post snap.  All of this is pivotal, particularly when your OL is as poor as ours.  Add in lack of accuracy, unwillingness to run and failure to protect the football in areas where it’s most critical and there is absolutely zero reason he should continue to start or be defended for how he’s played.

 

None of that means Wentz is suddenly going to be a Turner playbook savant, or lose his cinder block feet.  He likely will eat sacks.  It’s highly likely the low snaps will be a hinderance with him being a taller QB.  But he’s the next man up behind a guy who has been dreadful, even when we win.  

 

 

 

Edited December 25, 2022 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[FLSkinz83]

6 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Who has been defending the OL?  If there is anything I think we can all agree on, it’s that the offensive line is bad.

 

You don't recall the debates about Wentz holding the ball too long?   Seems like on every sack people were debating was it Wenz or the O-Line?

 

I remember Cooley did a film breakdown of each of  the 9 sacks against the Eagles.

[Skinsinparadise]

16 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

O-Line can be rebuilt, and I don't think QBs care too much who their OC is. I mean Brady played the last couple years for Byron Leftwich who is actually substantially worse than Turner. Peyton Manning played for Adam Gase. And I think the Rivera factor would trump that. Guys seem to like playing for him.

 

With our WR trio and RB duo, we are quite the attractive location. I just don't think there will be any good veterans left. I've been a Carr fan but I'm souring on him, he had another bad game yesterday.

 

Turner to me will work itself one way or another.  

 

JP Finlay's podcast crew said last night what i've been saying during the season as to the off season's exploits on the O line, not that it was a hard insight to come up with.

 

That is, they got carried away with the idea that Masko's magic that he can turn any dude into a good player.

 

Flowers turned around under him.  Schweitzer was a good signing.  Lucas played well as a backup.  Ditto Larsen.  Leno played well, etc.  Cosmi was a good pick.  Looked like they can do nothing wrong and they got arrogant about it in the off season and screwed up.

 

I know @Koolblue13 loves my Rocky references.  😀  So it feels a bit early Rocky 3.  they got arrogant and complacent,

 

But judging by Masko's reputation and Rivera's obsession about the trenches, I think they will figure this out, this off season.

 

The worry to me is fixing QB.  I don't think we need a world beater but I do agree with Chris Cooley among others that just adding an average QB could make this team a SB contender.

2 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

You don't recall the debates about Wentz holding the ball too long?   Seems like on every sack people were debating was it Wenz or the O-Line?

 

I remember Cooley did a film breakdown of each of  the 9 sacks against the Eagles.

 

What was the phase this season where you recall people being good with the O line, including the Eagles game?

Edited December 25, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Just now, FLSkinz83 said:

 

You don't recall the debates about Wentz holding the ball too long?   Seems like on every sack people were debating was it Wenz or the O-Line?

 

I remember Cooley did a film breakdown of each of  the 9 sacks against the Eagles.

I definitely do.  Generally speaking, those who loathed Wentz/love Heini wanted to pin all of it on Wentz.  Those of us with no real skin in the game, could see it was a combination of running too many slow developing, 5-7 step drop plays, no threat of the run, awful interior OL play and Wentz seeing ghosts after getting pressured early.  Add to that, the defense was playing awful and it was just a deadly combination.

 

I’m under no illusion that Wentz isn’t ever going to eat an unnecessary sack, or float a gimme right over the RB’s head.

 

But he’s still the better option over Heinicke, always has been and always will be.  That’s less about him and more about TH.

[zCommander]

2 hours ago, The Hangman- C_Hanburger said:

Anybody think the Jet's Wilson is salvageable next season for a flier? What happened to that guy?

 

Just stick a fork in him. He is done. No way we should even look in his direction! Wentz plays hard and will keep his job. Howell as the backup. TH probably gone uniless Turner still wants to hold on to his binki. 

[RVAskins]

1 hour ago, FLSkinz83 said:

Why would a top veteran QB want to play behind this O-Line and for Turner?    

 

$$$$$$