The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Voice_of_Reason]

10 hours ago, zCommander said:

Keep building around Wentz but Howell has to be the backup at least. 

If Wentz plays well the next 2 weeks, they make the playoffs and he plays ok, I think that’s the way they will go.

 

Hopefully without the anchor named Taylor on the roster. 
 

If he struggles and they don’t make the playoffs, then they are going to look to upgrade from Wentz.  But I still think they will bring him back on a restructured deal just in case they can’t get anybody better. 

[tshile]

I said last week wentz should start if they think he can do it or really want to see. This team wasn’t doing dick in the playoffs with Taylor starting.  And I say that as a true Taylor supporter - he made the games interesting again. I love watching him and I would love to see him make it as a starter. He had some great throws. But it’s a bottom 1/5 of the league offense with him and the oline isn’t good but with these wr’s and rb’s it’s clearly a qb limitation. 
 

But you saw the difference - SF rushed straight at him once he came in. He also looked like he had some rust to shake off. 
 

im someone who was anti- the wentz trade. Never thought he was good. So I’m not gonna sit here and prop him up. But maybe he can pull it off. I’d like to see him start and have a whole game and see where that goes. 
 

He sure can’t move much and playoff defenses will come hard knowing that. 
 

Ultimately, the saying holds true. When you have 2 qb’s, you don’t have a qb. 

Edited December 25, 2022 by tshile

[FLSkinz83]

 

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

A. Rivera bad

B. Turner bad

C. O line bad

D.  Heinicke might be good.  

 

I think We're making progress in understanding each other.   Rivera mediocre.  I've said the ceiling for TH is low end starter.

 

 

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 Last night in the fit of venting that many of us do post game, me including you were hitting things that others weren't from what I recall, so tough to forget.

 

Your posts included

 

A. LB depth bemoaning this smack after the game was over.  It's cool but LB depth I don't think most are citing as a key narrative for the loss yesterday.  Thats just a shot at Rivera.  I know that from our FO debate earlier that day. 

 

B.  Mocking Wentz's performance because it was garbage time and Rivera using it as a false excuse to bench Heinicke.

 

C.  Today mocking the idea of benching Heinicke after according to you his "best game"

 

The LB play was atrocious.  A big reason for the failure of the defense.  Mainly Mayo.    Of Course it's a shot at Rivera.  He's been stumblin and bumblin with the LB's for 3 years.

I blame Rivera 100%.   You can keep blaming Dan for being cheap.

 

I wasn't mocking Wentz performance or saying it was an excuse to bench TH going forward.   As soon as Wentz came in, I figured he'd be the guy going forward unless he really wet himself.   All I said, half jokingly, was that these stats are going to make it easier for Rivera to justify going to him.

 

You, of all people, should agree that yesterday was his best game based on the 84 QBR.  You love those analytics.   And I wasn't mocking anything.  Just thought it was ironic that he's going to get benched after that performance as opposed to others.

 

 

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Do you really want to see Wentz look successful?

 

I only care about one thing....winning....I don't care who the QB is.    But if you ask me who gives us a better chance to win under the current situation?   TH

 

Do I think TH is better than Wentz?  nope.    Do I want Wentz to succeed?  Of Course.   Hell, I want Turner to succeed.   

[Tundra scout]

3 hours ago, The Hangman- C_Hanburger said:

Anybody think the Jet's Wilson is salvageable next season for a flier? What happened to that guy?

He’s a bust big time 

[illone]

12 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Taylor’s moxie is Terry McLaurin and blind luck.  DBs dropping INTs which are in their hands and refs knocking down defenders. That’s the blind luck part.  

 

The other part of moxie magic is winging it in McLaurin’s direction and praying good things happen.

 

Wentz should do that.  People will think he’s got moxie magic.  

 

terry might have 2000 yards in that scenario, and avg 20 yds per catch. 
 

Moxie for dayssssss. 

[zCommander]

25 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

If Wentz plays well the next 2 weeks, they make the playoffs and he plays ok, I think that’s the way they will go.

 

Hopefully without the anchor named Taylor on the roster. 
 

If he struggles and they don’t make the playoffs, then they are going to look to upgrade from Wentz.  But I still think they will bring him back on a restructured deal just in case they can’t get anybody better. 

 

You really need to let Taylor get out of your system. Probably not healthy to constantly want him off the team lol - at least that is I am no longer focusing on. This year was supposed to be a wash like I have said before the season started. 

 

As for moving on from Wentz if he struggles - Ron when he got Wentz was probably thinking more than 1 year. Sure he can drop him if he wants since he has that luxury in the contract. But the bigger question is who will be able to come in and not miss a step in a new offense led by Turner? If not Wentz then If I am Ron I would turn to Howell instead if he truly believes he is ready to go. You really don't need a super duper QB with our style of offense we run anyway. Need a semi-mobile QB that can make plays and yes they have to be accurate on longer throws as well. Who is out there that would fit that bill?

 

The off-season will be either fun or we will all go ughhhh. 

[Skinsinparadise]

26 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

 

I think We're making progress in understanding each other.   Rivera mediocre.  I've said the ceiling for TH is low end starter.

 

 

I don't think I was ever lost on it.  That's been your theme for post after post.  I just simplified it even more, that's all. 

 

A. Rivera -- bad

B. Turner -- bad

C.  Heinicke -- might not be so bad

D.  Dan Snyder -- people blame him for more than they should, he's not the main problem with this organization's woes over the years.

 

I am just saying on Wentz specifically, you don't come off as a dude who wants to paint him in the nicest way, yet you claim you like him more than most.  You are sending very mixed messages on Wentz.  And I think the A, B, C bullet points I mentioned is the main reason why.  It screams in your posts, I think it filters in your current take on Wentz.

Edited December 25, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

36 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

You, of all people, should agree that yesterday was his best game based on the 84 QBR.  You love those analytics.   And I wasn't mocking anything.  Just thought it was ironic that he's going to get benched after that performance as opposed to others.

 

 

I've been posting mostly PFF numbers.  As far as QBR, if they liked his performance on their metric cool.  I said on the game thread, Taylor played well in the first half.  It fell apart in the 2nd half, if that all averages well to them, OK.  But to me not because of context.  The script ran into the same crap -- you can't be a QB who doesn't do points but also does turnovers.

 

But if I am going to live and die with QBR, they gave him a score in the 20s and 30s for these last two games against the Giants -- that's beyond an atrocious score.  I didn't expect to beat the 49ers.  But I did expect to beat the Giants and for Mr. Moxie, Mr. Clutch to come up that small in those games, that's as bad as it gets. And I said that yesterday before the game.  

 

And I think on Heinicke you aren't quite over him, yet. 😀

 

A.  You mocking Wentz's "garbage time" stats last night in the context of benching Heinicke.  

B.  Then said last night you are glad he's being benched because you are tired of talking about him

C.  Now you are this morning talking about him, and mocking the benching after his "best game"

Edited December 25, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[zCommander]

 

 

[FLSkinz83]

20 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I am just saying on Wentz specifically, you don't come off as a dude who wants to paint him in the nicest way, yet you claim you like him more than most.  You are sending very mixed messages on Wentz.  And I think the A, B, C bullet points I mentioned is the main reason why.  It screams in your posts, I think it filters in your current take on Wentz.

 

You're misinterpreting my words.   You'll just have to take my word on that   

 

The general frustration I have with the QB discussion is that we all agree the pass pro is poor and we generally agree that Turner is either average or awful, yet there's no correlation between that and our opinion of the QB play.   Doesn't matter if it's TH or Wentz.   That's really the frustration for me.  

 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

38 minutes ago, zCommander said:

You really need to let Taylor get out of your system. Probably not healthy to constantly want him off the team lol - at least that is I am no longer focusing on. This year was supposed to be a wash like I have said before the season started

This year was not supposed to be a wash.
 

I think Ron made a season altering mistake when he did not aggressively pursue too-end replacements on the OL.  I also think they should have kept Flowers around, at least until camp, to see who was better, Norwell or Flowers.  
 

Also trusting Rouiller to stay healthy with a backup center also coming off of season ending surgery was a mistake.

 

A lot of us just trusted they would be fine at OL because Masko has made wine out of water before.
 

Bur the OL essentially derailed the season.  
 

If they had any type of protection, I think with Wentz this is a 10-15 offense easily, even with his flaws.   
 

TH with protection is no better than without. They’d still have to run the ball 49 times a game and try to win 17-15.

 

I will rest when Th is either out of the league entirely or at least on another roster.

 

I appreciate that he was never supposed to start.  And has been forced into action twice.  But he’s dreadful and needs to be gone.  Hindsight being 20/20 they should have released him in the off season and signed a backup QB who isn’t awful at literally everything where you have to run 10 times more a game than pass because he can’t actually throw the ball.  

[tshile]

 

 

[88Comrade2000]

2 hours ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

I can a scenario where they tell him to take a pay cut in that 10-15 mil range and in exchange, they allow him to be a FA after next year.    He currently has 2 years left on his deal. 

This might be the path. 2023 year is a prove it year. Wentz has a good year, he’ll be top free agent in 24. He either gets a deal with us or elsewhere. Gives us more time to develop Sam.

 

Thing is, it depends on how quickly the new owner takes over. While it might be to late to make changes , the new owner will have a say.

[Skinsinparadise]

14 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

You're misinterpreting my words.   You'll just have to take my word on that   

 

The general frustration I have with the QB discussion is that we all agree the pass pro is poor and we generally agree that Turner is either average or awful, yet there's no correlation between that and our opinion of the QB play.   Doesn't matter if it's TH or Wentz.   That's really the frustration for me.  

 

 

 

OK, when someone manipulates stats to make Wentz look worse this week leading up to the game and then right after the game played down Wentz's good stats as garbage time stats -- and then last night and then today again mocked Ron's benching of Heinicke.  It doesn't paint the picture of you being that into Wentz.  But if you say you are, ok cool enough.  I'd suggest though when I am pushing a player, if anything I'll manipulate their stats to paint them in the best light -- not worse -- let alone discount their "garbage time" stats.  But again, to each their own.  😀

 

As for Scott Turner, I like how he orchestrates the run game.  I don't really have a strong opinion on the passing game but I am open to him not being good at it -- I'll spend some time on it in the off season and I'll judge for myself.   I'll say at a minimum I don't think he's above average.  I think i have been pretty medium on Turner.  I don't think he's a bumbiling fool like some do but also don't tout him that much either -- I think I've almost led the chorus that he's no McVay, no kyle and no head coach in the off season before it was cool to bash him.

 

I am not really sweating the O line.  While I do agree the pass blocking sucks.  I am also not in the camp that we need 5 new starters and we've gone from Masko could turn water into wine to this is a permanent disease that we'd be lucky to recover from in a long time.  Even if I didn't care for Rivera like you and some others, I'd have faith in him on this front.  The argument from his critics is that he's an old school coach from the 80s, behind the times among other things.  But part of the narrtive is he's fixated on the trenches to a fault.  Rivera already referenced being VERY aware of the O line woes.  I strongly believe they will fix it. 

 

 

[skinsfan66]

1 hour ago, Tundra scout said:

He’s a bust big time 

So is Wentz and he has had 3 teams to prove it.  

[Califan007 The Constipated]

I said *47 pages ago that I might be the **only one who wouldn’t mind seeing Wentz again, so I’m content with him starting…just for the love of God don’t get injured again lol. 
 

 

*47 pages ago is an estimate for humorous effect

**I know others didn’t mind seeing Wentz again—humorous effect once more lol. 

[SoCalSkins]

I just hope Myles Garret doesn’t snap Carson’s ankle like JJ watt did to Alex smith. His contract is still guaranteed for injury. 
 

 

Edited December 25, 2022 by SoCalSkins

[Skinsinparadise]

 

PFF guy who is a Commanders fan

 

 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

He’s not wrong.  I don’t think any of us are under the illusion Wentz cures our ills.  Wentz is likely to be maddening in his own right.

 

But we desperately need a change.

[skinsfan66]

7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

OK, when someone manipulates stats to make Wentz look worse this week leading up to the game and then right after the game played down Wentz's good stats as garbage time stats -- and then last night and then today again mocked Ron's benching of Heinicke.  It doesn't paint the picture of you being that into Wentz.  But if you say you are, ok cool enough.  I'd suggest though when I am pushing a player, if anything I'll manipulate their stats to paint them in the best light -- not worse -- let alone discount their "garbage time" stats.  But again, to each their own.  😀

 

As for Scott Turner, I like how he orchestrates the run game.  I don't really have a strong opinion on the passing game but I am open to him not being good at it -- I'll spend some time on it in the off season and I'll judge for myself.   I'll say at a minimum I don't think he's above average.  I think i have been pretty medium on Turner.  I don't think he's a bumbiling fool like some do but also don't tout him that much either -- I think I've almost led the chorus that he's no McVay, no kyle and no head coach in the off season before it was cool to bash him.

 

I am not really sweating the O line.  While I do agree the pass blocking sucks.  I am also not in the camp that we need 5 new starters and we've gone from Masko could turn water into wine to this is a permanent disease that we'd be lucky to recover from in a long time.  Even if I didn't care for Rivera like you and some others, I'd have faith in him on this front.  The argument from his critics is that he's an old school coach from the 80s, behind the times among other things.  But part of the narrtive is he's fixated on the trenches to a fault.  Rivera already referenced being VERY aware of the O line woes.  I strongly believe they will fix it. 

 

 

Wentz stats were garbage time you see it all the time with teams protecting the lead and clock he is not a 26 mil dollar QB. We saw what he has done in real time. I have been sweating Oline all year they need to make changes it is the achilles heal of the team. Atleast Rivera referenced it but he did nothing before the season to fix it.

[FLSkinz83]

19 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

OK, when someone manipulates stats to make Wentz look worse this week leading up to the game and then right after the game played down Wentz's good stats as garbage time stats -- and then last night and then today again mocked Ron's benching of Heinicke.  It doesn't paint the picture of you being that into Wentz.  But if you say you are, ok cool enough.  I'd suggest though when I am pushing a player, if anything I'll manipulate their stats to paint them in the best light -- not worse -- let alone discount their "garbage time" stats.  But again, to each their own.  😀

 

As for Scott Turner, I like how he orchestrates the run game.  I don't really have a strong opinion on the passing game but I am open to him not being good at it -- I'll spend some time on it in the off season and I'll judge for myself.   I'll say at a minimum I don't think he's above average.  I think i have been pretty medium on Turner.  I don't think he's a bumbiling fool like some do but also don't tout him that much either -- I think I've almost led the chorus that he's no McVay, no kyle and no head coach in the off season before it was cool to bash him.

 

I am not really sweating the O line.  While I do agree the pass blocking sucks.  I am also not in the camp that we need 5 new starters and we've gone from Masko could turn water into wine to this is a permanent disease that we'd be lucky to recover from in a long time.  Even if I didn't care for Rivera like you and some others, I'd have faith in him on this front.  The argument from his critics is that he's an old school coach from the 80s, behind the times among other things.  But part of the narrtive is he's fixated on the trenches to a fault.  Rivera already referenced being VERY aware of the O line woes.  I strongly believe they will fix it. 

 

 

 

A few points here:

 

1)  I'm not pushing for Wentz.  Maybe that's where the disconnect is here.  I said TH should remain the starter based on the current situation.   If you told me the pass pro would hold up, I'd def. go to Wentz.

 

2) Your view of the line play and Turner is why you're so hard on the QB play.   

 

On a separate note regarding the pass pro....it's not always on the line itself or even the TE blocking.  Much of the problem with pass pro is on Turner.   Long developing pass plays, the inability to develop an effective screen game, etc....

[Voice_of_Reason]

12 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

I said *47 pages ago that I might be the **only one who wouldn’t mind seeing Wentz again, so I’m content with him starting…just for the love of God don’t get injured again lol. 
 

 

*47 pages ago is an estimate for humorous effect

**I know others didn’t mind seeing Wentz again—humorous effect once more lol. 

47 pages ago was only December 16th.  I checked.  Honestly, that's not that impressive.  Now if you had said it ... 134 pages ago, on October 23rd, that would have been a lot more impressive.

 

 

 

(Also, for the record, I never wanted to see Heinicke ever play, and even after he started winning, while I conceded you don't miss with something that's working, I never wanted to see him plan.  Like ever.  So I guess I wanted to see Wentz again by default.  Or Howell.  Or ... literally any other QB who is not infuriatingly limited.)

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

12 minutes ago, skinsfan66 said:

Wentz stats were garbage time you see it all the time with teams protecting the lead and clock he is not a 26 mil dollar QB.

The 49ers weren’t playing a protect the lead “prevent” defense.  They were pinning their ears back and Kyle was ripping that challenge flag out as much as he could.  That was not a team content to rest and allow Wentz to pad stats.

Edited December 25, 2022 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[shemp nixon]

3 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

The 49ers weren’t playing a protect the lead “prevent” defense.  They were pinning their ears back and Kyle was ripping that challenge flag out as much as he could.  That was not a team content to rest and allow Wentz to pad stats.

Yep, the 49ers blitzed the hell out of Wentz. And IMO, he handled it pretty well. Looked much more in control of the O.

[Skinsinparadise]

23 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

A few points here:

 

1)  I'm not pushing for Wentz.  Maybe that's where the disconnect is here.  I said TH should remain the starter based on the current situation.   If you told me the pass pro would hold up, I'd def. go to Wentz.

 

 

OK that probably is it.  I've debated too many people and read too many posts to not pick up the signs when someone is trying to downplay versus lift a player and you seem to be doing that with Wentz.  That is downplay.  So you are doing that but your point is its in the context of Wentz isn't the better bet right now its Taylor in your mind.

 

26 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

2) Your view of the line play and Turner is why you're so hard on the QB play.   

 

 

Yeah this point I follow.  You feel that Taylor might be the dude but we are missing it because we can't divorce his play from the O line play and Turner whereas you think you got a good handle on it.

 

27 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

On a separate note regarding the pass pro....it's not always on the line itself or even the TE blocking.  Much of the problem with pass pro is on Turner.   Long developing pass plays, the inability to develop an effective screen game, etc....

 

Could be also what Logan Paulsen suggested in the soup when grading the Giants game, Taylor himself isn't good at setting protections.