The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Llevron]

6 minutes ago, Ghost of said:

Dah-dee thank you!

 

So he ranks not so great in what they feel are stable measure stats... please someone save this team from itself lol

 

I also like that a QB is in control of negative plays and they account for year to year differences more attributable to receivers, other variables etc. 

 

Their metrics say his overall is not good but his improvement is stellar. The GM and HC need to figure out if that’s an outlier or legit growth. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Rewatching Daniels and Maye every throw-run.  I trust my eyes, far from on everything, but I do on two counts - accuracy and decision making.  At least in my own mind.    I've been harsh towards Haskins, Rosen, Darnold, Trubisky on these counts over the years when studying them.  Daniels passes this test for me with flying colors.  Maye too sans his three bad games.   I see people who don't like Maye and don't like Daniels hit them for some errant plays where the receivers have to adjust to the ball.  Sure, it happens. It happens to everyone.   

 

Outside of here, Maye gets hit for this a lot more than Daniels.  Here the hits came at Daniels.  But neither of these QBs hit my red flag on these counts.  They are both good on those counts IMHO.  Not perfect.  But no one is.  Both are tall QBs with good vision IMO who see the field.

 

So count me in the crowd who think both Maye and Daniels will likely succeed for different reasons

 

Maye

 

A.  The Hurricanes game, Clemson game, but especially the NC State game are the down ones.  In those games he looked like the player Chris Simms among his other critics say he is.  A dude that makes some killer throws but is wildly inconsistent especially with throws to the flat and off platform.    And his accuracy looked meh because even many of the completions required the WRs to adjust to the ball.

 

But....

 

B.  Why should be be defined by those 3 games?  I can see if lets say you watched just 5 games and those are three of them, no way you come out of it thinking Maye is QB #2.  That might be what we are dealing with as to all the Maye hate.  Those games skew the sample to my eyes.  He started the season on fire but had a hiccup mid season and ended poorly.  

 

C.  I deeply apologize to Dez Walker,   I was a bit harsh on him on the draft thread.  He actually flashes plenty, comes off like a baller at times.  Not the most refined route runner.  But when it comes to go routes, outs of all types, crossers, he's good.    Has some drops but makes some really nice catches too and his athleticism (sub 4-4) is clear to see when you watch an hour or so of him straight.

 

D.  One of Maye's super powers is running including designed runs.  I know "duh".  But am doubling down on it per rewatch.  😎.  You can do anything with him a a runner.  And he's ballsy as a runner so he needs to watch out too as far as avoiding injury.  Has really good vision as a runner and is opportunistic.

 

E.  He's erratic off-schedule-off platform but if he can channel that superpower he would be special.  He needs to work on his rotational accuracy -- but his highlights are VERY special. Mahomes like highlights.  He needs to work on it though because his accuracy in general isn't hot on this front.

 

F.  Best QB in this class, yeah even better than Caleb when it comes to changing speeds on his throws.  He's like an MLB pitcher on that front, an artist.  Beautiful.  Artist on this front.

 

G. I'll double down that those say he has to sit a year as BS.  He's ready.  If someone wants to define him based on the last 2 games, fine, but I am not doing it.  Granted, I'd rather end with a high than a low but he has plenty of good tape to indicate that his last 2 games were just bad games for him, not definitive games.  He can make every type of throw and I like the ballsiness of how he plays.  And he's only 21 so in theory the best should be ahead of him.

 

H.  Does he drift into pressure?  Sometimes yes.  But I think that's a habit that can be fixed.  Assume its him not trusting his protection?

 

I.   Love him as a prospect.  In an interview, I'd want him to explain what happened in his three bad games last year.  My biggest red flag with him is there is a bit of frantic in his game when under duress.  I'd want to coach that out of him.  I know some hit him for not being good in big moments, I haven't really digested that point, but if its so I don't know if the frantic nature is part of it.  Ironically that same point is a hit on Herbert both in college and now in the pros.

 

Daniels

 

A.  He ended on a high compared to Maye so I wonder if that's part of the narrative as to why a bunch of people tend to prefer him, looked strong.  His first game against Florida State wasn't hot.  But after that he was good arguably every game.  i don't sleep on that type of consistency.

 

B.  I see some here hit him for arm talent and think his accuracy is overrated.  Not me.  He passes my test on that front easily.  He doesn't have a gun.  Arm strength is average.  But he has a quick release and at least on video comes off like he throws a really catchable ball.  Nice touch on his throws.  Reminds me a bit like Kirk on that front.  But I'll couch this with I'd want to see this live to judge.  It's not always easy to tell on video.

 

C.  He's not a one read and go QB. I know that's the stereotype of a running QB so why not stick that on him.  And yeah sometimes he indeed is.  But plenty of times he isn't and you can see him scan the field and go through reads.  

 

D.  He needs to throw more off platform for 2 reasons.  1.  To survive in the NFL because you can't always run when flushed out of the pocket.  2.  He makes some insane off platform throws when he goes to that well.  So dude -- do more of them versus taking off.  I think this is something he can master if he changes his mindset. For example, on some plays, he dodges some defenders Mahomes like in the pocket, where he looks like Spiderman, but then instead of taking advantage of the space he created for himself to throw the ball, he takes off, instead. 

 

E.  I know he gets praised for his calmness and ability to handle big moments well. Tough for me to see that from afar but he does make big plays in big moments but lol not enough clearly with LSU going 9-3.  But am bringing it up here because I wonder if that is something that this FO juxtaposes between Daniels and Maye?  

 

F.  Brian Thomas is an animal.  That dude is Metcalf.  Daniels throws the deep ball well IMO.  Often its ahead of the receiver, sometimes it's underthrown.  But either way Thomas adjusts to the ball.  Great speed, physicality, ball tracking ability.  I like that Daniels always gives the WR a shot, he doesn't over throw it the deep ball often.  It's mostly either ahead but not too ahead of the WR or its slightly behind him but its almost always at least in the vicinity -- so the WR has a shot to make the play. 

 

G. Quick release-Compact delivery.  Base looks consistent from play to play.  In turn, he is a very consistent thrower.  Not saying every throw.  No QB is 100% consistent with no errant throws.  But he's on the higher end of the spectrum in this front.

 

H.  As a runner, he's electric.  Not a straight line runner by a long shot.  A ton of zig and zag both in the pocket and in open field - both laterally and horizontally.  But, oddly their designed runs-RO-RPOs-keepers got blown up at the line of scrimmage a lot and that i gather contributed to his high pressure-sack rate.  i wonder if he doesn't sell it well -- considering the defense seemed cued up for the play when it comes. 

 

He was better with ad-lib scrambles than designed runs.  He runs well everywhere -- right-left and the middle.  He needs to be careful about those runs in the middle -- he gets skinny in the hole and finds a crease to take off, but i wouldn't risk that style in the NFL.   In general, his vulnerability is when pressure comes from the DTs.  

 

I.  Throws in the middle -- 2nd level.  He needs to do it more.  He was OK on that front as to accuracy for the most part when he threw to the 2nd level.  I am worried about his ability to do this as to throwing to a spot -- with anticipation.  That's my big question about him aside from durability.

 

Conclusion:  I prefer Maye but I don't get the angst unless its 100% about his durability.  That's my concern so I get that.  But as a QB, I think he will instantly be one of the best runners in the NFL.   Some critics here wonder is this Justin Fields?  But Fields doesn't have a quick release and a compact delivery on par with Daniels.  The way I see it, an accurate QB, who shows up to work at 5 AM everyday, can run a 4.4 and has one of the better rated deep balls I've seen in my years following the draft -- screams bust?  To each their own.  But not me.  If he can stay heatlhy, I think he will be good.   In an interview, I'd press him about making more throws off platform -- i think that's the superpower that he's burying because he has the wrong mindset IMHO. 

Edited April 14 by Skinsinparadise

[Ghost of]

5 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

Their metrics say his overall is not good but his improvement is stellar. The GM and HC need to figure out if that’s an outlier or legit growth. 

Yes sorry. Career stats but 2023 clean pocket grade, for example, very very good.

[mudhog]

4 hours ago, Jumbo said:

The problem with everything was figured out decades ago by a small group of true geniuses.

 

I always like to try new stuff, so I youtubed it and watched about half. Kinda reminds me of a cross between Monty Python and Frank Zappa. Definitely has that late 70s homechoke vibe to it. Gonna go back and watch the rest later.

[Llevron]

@Skinsinparadise is it pushing it to think Daniels is a better passer than Maye? 
 

I know I’m not making you any friends with that question. 

Edited April 14 by Llevron

[kingdaddy]

28 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

F.  Brian Thomas is an animal.  That dude is Metcalf.  Daniels throws the deep ball well IMO.  Often its ahead of the receiver, sometimes it's underthrown.  But either way Thomas adjusts to the ball.  Great speed, physicality, ball tracking ability.  I like that Daniels always gives the WR a shot, he doesn't over throw it the deep ball often.  It's mostly either ahead but not too ahead of the WR or its slightly behind him but its almost easy in the vacinity -- so the WR has a shot to make the play. 

 

Do we need to make sure we go up and get Thomas....some how some way? 

[CommanderInTheRye]

23 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Lol, I'd rather one of the Daniels > Maye people here do it.  @wit33?  @Est.1974?  I know there are some others but those come to mind first.

 

By presenting Daniels case as not being a terrible choice its making me by default the defacto Daniels person here.  And while i don't think Daniels is some absurd choice like some do.  I also still prefer Maye and its getting lost in the sauce as the draft gets closer.  I have to be top 5 here in pro Maye posts.

 

But I would say as to Cooley in short put him in the category (this is pre-watching Maye) as Daniels is a superstar, no brainer stud in his mind.  Not a good QB, a great QB.  Over the years sometimes I've agreed, sometimes not with Cooley and talked about it back then.  But i'll give Cooley this, he goes deep into his takes and is not an easy sell.  He leans on the cynicism side.  I recall more of his negative takes than positive over the years. 

 

 

 

 

 

I had a lot if crazy stuff happen yesterday so I didn't get around to listening to this until a few moments ago.

 

SIP, if anything, you actually undersold Cooley's enthusiasm for Daniels. I was absolutely stunned listening to it. 

 

I don't think I've EVER heard Cooley give a more enthusiastic endorsement for a college player,  let alone a college quarterback.

 

Yes, Cooley is just one guy and it's just one opinion, but it is one hell of an endorsement from a man with no skin in the game who in the past has not hesitated to eviscerate potential draft picks.

 

I'm going to post a few quotes from the interview later, but I'll offer one of Cooley's strongest quotes now:

 

"How is this not our pick at two?...This is my guy. I love him!"

 

I suggest that anyone who hasn't done so already (EVEN IF YOU HATE DANIELS) should take the time to listen to Cooley's interview with Sheehan.

 

I'm not saying it will change anyone's mind because I know it won't and I'm not trying to do that anyway.

 

I respect everyones right to have their own opinion.  And at this point, with under 2 weeks left,  those who are strongly committed, one way or the other, aren't likely to be persuaded-- and I get that.

 

I just think it might make it easier to stomach for some if we do end up drafting him.

 

Then again maybe that's a wound that only time and/or future succes will heal.

 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

28 minutes ago, Llevron said:

@Skinsinparadise is it pushing it to think Daniels is a better passer than Maye? 
 

I know I’m not making you any friends with that question. 

I’m going to chime in even though the question wasn’t directed at me. 
 

I think they’re different.  And one might not be better than the other.  But they each do different things well and struggle at other things.

 

Daniels mechanics are much better and he’s rock solid on quick game throws, screen game, swing passes and deep fades, posts, deep balls where you are lofting the ball and letting receivers run under them.

 

He struggles with driving the ball into tight windows because his arm talent isn’t elite.  He has to be 100% on time or the pass os broken up.

 

Maye on the other hand is almost the opposite. He’s really good at driving the ball into tight windows, and likes to take second and third level throws.  
 

But he struggles with accuracy on the short stuff and his mechanics aren’t great.  He also has a tendency to over throw deep fades, though he can hit them also.

 

So, what one does well, the other doesn’t.  
 

But I would qualify they are both generally really good.  So you’re picking nits either direction.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

49 minutes ago, Rolo Tomasie said:

Well that's over the top but speaking of over the top I would rather never ever have my QB jump into contact with a tackler.

And I like my quarterbacks to not have conjoined twins that died in the womb still attached to their elbows.

[Llevron]

2 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I’m going to chime in even though the question wasn’t directed at me. 
 

I think they’re different.  And one might not be better than the other.  But they each do different things well and struggle at other things.

 

Daniels mechanics are much better and he’s rock solid on quick game throws, screen game, swing passes and deep fades, posts, deep balls where you are lofting the ball and letting receivers run under them.

 

He struggles with driving the ball into tight windows because his arm talent isn’t elite.  He has to be 100% on time or the pass os broken up.

 

Maye on the other hand is almost the opposite. He’s really good at driving the ball into tight windows, and likes to take second and third level throws.  
 

But he struggles with accuracy on the short stuff and his mechanics aren’t great.  He also has a tendency to over throw deep fades, though he can hit them also.

 

So, what one does well, the other doesn’t.  
 

But I would qualify they are both generally really good.  So you’re picking nits either direction.

I think I agree with that 100%. It’s part of why I like Maye more even though I really like Daniels. I feel like Maye can improve those things. I’m not sure how much more speed Daniels can put on the ball. In a timing based offense (I’m thinking Payton) I can see him ripping teams apart with arm and legs. But that’s a whole of team approach and I am very worried about his durability. 
 

I dunno. I can’t call it. But it’s much closer than I thought it would be passing, which is why I asked. I appreciate the input! 

[MartinC]

1 hour ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

 

For funsies, QBASE is a stat to peruse to pass the time. But it's not a good one.

 

It had Bryce Young as a superior prospect to CJ Stroud, 

So did the Panthers and most draft ‘experts’. Just shows - you are basically betting the house and your 401K on red against black. 

[Rufus T Firefly]

6 minutes ago, CommanderInTheRye said:

 

 

I had a lot if crazy stuff happen yesterday so I didn't get around to listening to this until a few moments ago.

 

SIP, if anything, you actually undersold Cooley's enthusiasm for Daniels. I was absolutely stunned listening to it. 

 

I don't think I've EVER heard Cooley give a more enthusiastic endorsement for a college player,  let alone a college quarterback.

 

Yes, Cooley is just one guy and it's just one opinion, but it is one hell of an endorsement from a man with no skin in the game who in the past has not hesitated to eviscerate potential draft picks.

 

I'm going to post a few quotes from the interview later, but I'll offer one of Cooley's strongest quotes now:

 

"How is this not our pick at two?...This is my guy. I love him!"

 

I suggest that anyone who hasn't done so already (EVEN IF YOU HATE DANIELS) should take the time to listen to Cooley's interview with Sheehan.

 

I'm not saying it will change anyone's mind because I know it won't and I'm not trying to do that anyway.

 

I respect everyones right to have their own opinion.  And at this point, with under 2 weeks left,  those who are strongly committed, one way or the other, aren't likely to be persuaded-- and I get that.

 

I just think it might make it easier to stomach for some if we do end up drafting him.

 

Then again maybe that's a wound that only time and/or future succes will heal.

 

 

I heard it earlier today. The one thing I'll point to in it is his trying to rationalize the hits Daniels takes by saying he might be playing reckless because you can't afford to lose games is college and that'll be different int he NFL so maybe those plays will completely go away. That's laughable 

 

Again, I think Cooley does spectacular breakdowns. His opinion Is obviously a valuable one. I just haven't heard a lot on QBs from him and the little I did wasn't nearly as great. Mainly I remember the 21 draft where he gushed about Wilson. I remember at one point saying he was considering making someone, and I believe it was Mac, his QB2. Sheehan said "behind Lawrence?" and he said "No, behind Wilson" so, you know, that wasn't great. I don't remember him doing QBs last year or what he said about Herbert and Tua (Burrow was such a no-brainer, so I would expect eh knew that). 22 was a garbage draft for qbs. So hasn't been much to chew on with QBs.

 

I know I've heard he nailed Josh Allen, but all these guys have a "he was right about ---" that people call back to. 

 

All that is to say, he's great at what he's done, just not seen enough to be 100% on him at QB.

 

Still only a few people doing breakdowns have touched on Daniels' lack of instincts when it comes to taking hits. I've given up that most are going to zero in on what the real issue is there. Just hearing a bunch of them say "just slide more" as if that is a panacea is fairly comical.

[SkinsFTW]

What I believe is that no matter which QB they take he's likely going to turn out better that whoever ends up in NE.

 

That team sucks, has a very unproven coaching staff and the guy is also going to have to deal with Mahomes, Burrow, Allen, etc just trying to get through the playoff even if the Patriots turn things around.

 

For instance if Daniels/Maye/McCarthy in NE look better in 2 years than whoever Peters chooses it's going to look even worse considering the situation. This team has a much better overall offense and more than likely better coaching as well.

 

Personally I don't see how they pass up Maye for Daniels but I also don't get paid the big bucks to make the decision.

 

Get it right or the next few years I'll have no  choice but to clown the team just as I have for the past 15+ years.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

5 minutes ago, MartinC said:

So did the Panthers and most draft ‘experts’. Just shows - you are basically betting the house and your 401K on red against black. 

 

I mean, kinda, but it's not like Young didn't have glaring question marks everyone knowingly overlooked at the time and are revisiting with hindsight.

 

I think a lot of the draft narratives by 'experts' are them knowing a team loves Player A, so they don't want to say anything negative about Player A to make it look like they've always rated him where he winds up being drafted.

 

I think this is also happening with Caleb. Who is a better prospect than Young, but still has flaws. It just doesn't benefit the 'experts' to point them out when they know he's going #1.

[Skinsinparadise]

22 minutes ago, Llevron said:

@Skinsinparadise is it pushing it to think Daniels is a better passer than Maye? 
 

I know I’m not making you any friends with that question. 

 

Depends on what you focus on.   Daniels was clearly more consistent last year.  But its hard to know how context factored in.  Daniels had the better O line and weapons by a mile.  

 

In my opinion.

 

In the flat. Daniels is more accurate -- first level

2nd level.  Maye is more accurate and throws with anticipation -- kills Daniels on this.

Going deep:  I like them both on this front.

Out routes:  Daniels

In routes -- in between the numbers:  Maye

 

Talking purely about Daniels, the two things that struck me more about him watching him today. 

 

1. I get a little bit more the point that some ex-Qbs when studying him praised him for not needing a lot of space to throw the ball.   I never really thought much about that as a variable in the past.  But I see the value especially in the NFL when you have to deal with muddy pockets.  You can see that he can throw from a tight pocket and comes off calm doing it - calm in that his mechanics look consistent compared to any other play.  I am no expert on mechanics by a long shot.  So I really have no idea aside from looking for consistency and whether the QB's feet-hips-shoulder-arm are aligned to where he's throwing. And Jayden looks like he does that well including in a muddy pocket -- when he of course doesn't take off. 

 

2.  He has more Lamar in him as to dodging pressure in the pocket than he is given credit for.   He's not Lamar.  But he is darn good at it.  I should have frozen some of the frames while watching.  If we draft him, I'll rewatch and freeze those plays to showcase them.  i don't have the patience to rewatch them all again.  He has some prime Russell Wilson ability to dodge pressure in the pocket.  If I wanted to channel one thing if I took him is to harness that quaility where I press him to make off platform throws versus run so much.   His teases as to making off platform throws are awesome to my eyes.   But they are just teases.  Can he blow up and make this a tool to his game?  I suspect yes based on his flashes but I got no idea.

 

I think Maye has more bad habits than Daniels for example throwing off of his back foot when he doesn't have to like a clip i attach below.  But lol, Maye is 21, I bet Daniels had some bad habits to work through too when he was 21.  The 2 year advantage IMO is a big time X factor.  That doesn't take anything away from Daniels but i mean it more as props to Maye.  Maye has to my eyes more wow throws that Daniels.  But Daniels comes off more consistent.  And I do think Maye's size gives him an advantage to survive the NFL.

 

The first two clips showcases him throwing in a tight pocket with accuracy and watching the whole play, his mechanics looked sound.  The other is him dodging a defender draped on him.  The other is Drake throwing off his back foot with no pressure on him.  

 

 

[Dah-Dee]

While it's true that Daniels had amazing weapons available on the field at LSU, I was a little surprised that UNC scored as well as it did (slightly above average among Power 5 schools) per PFF:

 

 

[Hooper]

1 hour ago, Llevron said:

@Skinsinparadise is it pushing it to think Daniels is a better passer than Maye? 
 

I know I’m not making you any friends with that question. 

Not based on hitting what you're aiming for.

 

I will more than happy with Maye, but "if he's such a good thrower why doesn't he throw good?" -- JT O'Sullivan 

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

2 minutes ago, Dah-Dee said:

While it's true that Daniels had amazing weapons available on the field at LSU, I was a little surprised that UNC scored as well as it did (slightly above average among Power 5 schools) per PFF:

 

 

Man, JJ McCarthy really elevated Michigan.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

1 hour ago, Llevron said:

 

Their metrics say his overall is not good but his improvement is stellar. The GM and HC need to figure out if that’s an outlier or legit growth. 

 

This is super hard. Cause his supporting cast looks all time great. Nabers and Brian Thomas are so much better than the corners they went up against. Is that growth or just knowing they're going to win because they always win?

[MartinC]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I’m going to chime in even though the question wasn’t directed at me. 
 

I think they’re different.  And one might not be better than the other.  But they each do different things well and struggle at other things.

 

Daniels mechanics are much better and he’s rock solid on quick game throws, screen game, swing passes and deep fades, posts, deep balls where you are lofting the ball and letting receivers run under them.

 

He struggles with driving the ball into tight windows because his arm talent isn’t elite.  He has to be 100% on time or the pass os broken up.

 

Maye on the other hand is almost the opposite. He’s really good at driving the ball into tight windows, and likes to take second and third level throws.  
 

But he struggles with accuracy on the short stuff and his mechanics aren’t great.  He also has a tendency to over throw deep fades, though he can hit them also.

 

So, what one does well, the other doesn’t.  
 

But I would qualify they are both generally really good.  So you’re picking nits either direction.

So it really comes down to which one fits the offense you want to run better. Or (better) which one you think you can design the most effective (long term) offense around. 
 

You can see what we would run around Daniel’s - lots of zone read/RPO with quick game/screens and built in deep shots. 
 

Maye a more consistently vertical passing game with lots of deep overs, digs and skinny posts and play action off a power/gap/inside zone running scheme. Much less quick game. 

 

Which do we believe gives us the best chance to win over the long term - not just year one or two? Because we need to build a roster around whoever we pick and on the offensive side they need to fit what we are going to do. Which will be very different depending which QB we take.

 

(None of the above is really Air Raid - but we don’t believe from what has been said that we will running pure Air Raid.)

 

[Dah-Dee]

Maye has a local fan:

 

 

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

All right, I’ll say this. I will be OK with us picking Jayden Daniels if he turns out to be good.

[Rufus T Firefly]

1 minute ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

All right, I’ll say this. I will be OK with us picking Jayden Daniels if he turns out to be good.

[goskins10]

3 minutes ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

All right, I’ll say this. I will be OK with us picking Jayden Daniels if he turns out to be good.

 

[Dah-Dee]

8 minutes ago, MartinC said:

(None of the above is really Air Raid - but we don’t believe from what has been said that we will running pure Air Raid.)

 

*Kliff Kingsbury has entered the chat*