The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[kingdaddy]

10 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

 

Maye is like the ultimate example of a house w/ good bones.

 

Sure there is a lot of work that needs to be done. Consistency is a little leaky, decision making runs cold, unfinished mechanics downstairs... but if you fix all that you pretty much have everything you want in a QB.

 

I'm not sure there is a "foundation is rotten" problem with him that can't really get repaired or would scare people away. If a coach looks at him and deems his issues fixable in the same manner, I see the appeal of wanting him. Its why he is a blue chip prospect in my eyes.

Wasn't Anthony Richardson considered to be extremely inaccurate and somewhat unrefined as a QB when he came out? He seemed to be doing well before he got knocked out for the season. 

[Chump Bailey]

2 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

Wasn't Anthony Richardson considered to be extremely inaccurate and somewhat unrefined as a QB when he came out? He seemed to be doing well before he got knocked out for the season. 

 

Yep and IMO his accuracy concerns were valid but he seemed like an entirely different QB in that regard for the Colts. I believe he was credited as being one with a good work ethic. That in conjunction with coaching changed that in a big way. 

[HTTRDynasty]

 

[DogofWar1]

Maye's footwork needs some work, and given how important footwork is to accuracy I'm inclined to lay his accuracy issues at the feet of the footwork issue.

 

And I suspect a lot of his footwork issues stem from him basically needing to constantly be on the move.  But his footwork is not bad when he gets to throw at the top of his drop.  It's not amazing either, but it's good, could be better, but still good.  It's just that, how often did Maye get to throw the ball at the top of his drop?  Pretty much never bc no one was ever open.

[mac8887]

2 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

This is probably why so many QBs bust. These coaches overrate how good they can coach. I wish the nfl had a farm system like the mlb, the mlb has an entire system used for development. 

[HTTRDynasty]

 

 

 

[ntotoro]

Kiper says Daniels... and he's correct about as often as a broken clock... which means it'll be Maye.

 

Late to the party here, but I don't see how Daniels' physique even makes it through the preseason if he's allowed to take a requisite number of snaps and has edge rushers looking to prove themselves to their respective FO's.

[FootballZombie]

19 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

Wasn't Anthony Richardson considered to be extremely inaccurate and somewhat unrefined as a QB when he came out? He seemed to be doing well before he got knocked out for the season. 

 

 

Ant is one of those Dual threat QBs that comes out and you think if he can become at least a decent passer, hes a big time threat.

But he has yet to put anything of that ilk on paper. Hes all aptitude. In terms of actual production and performance, he's been pretty bad.

 

His passing high water mark is 2.5 K and 53% Passing. He's never broken 60.

His rushing high water mark is 650 yds. All the aptitude in the world there, but still... never put up elite production over a season. 

 

In order for Ant to be successful he's gonna have to massively over-produce production in a way we have never seen from him before, both as a rusher and passer.

 

 

 

 

Looking at his NFL time... he's played in 4 games while missing one in between. Two of those 4 games saw him log 33% of his teams offensive plays or less.

He does not protect himself as a runner and as a result he gets hurt.

 

Of the two full games he has one logging 64% completion percentage with the other is 44%. On the season hes at 59%. 

His rushing production looked pretty good, but he cost himself a season to get it. 

 

You gotta be more than a big body and a monster arm. Ant-man is a dang human specimen in that department and he aint much of a passer as it stands. If he ever learns to protect himself, he can be a theoretically great runner.

 

 

Unlimited ceiling tho.... That and 5 Bucks can get you some popcorn.

[Destino]

1 hour ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

coaching them up how? If they don’t start they get virtually no reps. If they do start they have to win almost immediately or the owner might get impatient and fire the coaching staff.  
 

which brings up another element, risk aversion. When evaluating QBs coaches and GMs are probably much more concerned with the perceived “floor” of a player than fans are. Their jobs depend on it.

[HTTRDynasty]

 

[redskinss]

45 minutes ago, Destino said:

coaching them up how?

 

Mini camps, training camp, practices, film review etc.

 

A quarterback doesn't have to be the starter to get "coached up" so to speak but it certainly speeds up their progress being the starter.

[Conn]

3 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

I think that’s a more likely than not top-4.

[woodpecker]

1 hour ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Interesting. This has been the holdup for me on Daniels. With his speed, and the players around him, it makes no sense he would take so many sacks. And I think this chart helps explain the struggles of Howell and Fields. Avoiding sacks seems more a matter of instinct than athleticism.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

1 hour ago, mac8887 said:

This is probably why so many QBs bust. These coaches overrate how good they can coach. I wish the nfl had a farm system like the mlb, the mlb has an entire system used for development. 

They tried that with the world league. That **** was unbearable to watch because it could be fourth and an inch with a game on the line and they are going four wide and slinging it. Also, none of those quarterbacks ever got any good.

[DogofWar1]

3 minutes ago, woodpecker said:

Interesting. This has been the holdup for me on Daniels. With his speed, and the players around him, it makes no sense he would take so many sacks. And I think this chart helps explain the struggles of Howell and Fields. Avoiding sacks seems more a matter of instinct than athleticism.

Also a factor of weight.

 

Big Ben was always a joy to watch because he'd have 5 dudes hanging off him and he'd still get the throw off.

 

This was the point Tice (I think) made.  When you're skinny and sub 205, if a 240 lb DE gets his hand on you, you're going down.  It's physics at that point.  Guys at 220+ are just harder to bring down and more stable.

[FootballZombie]

8 minutes ago, woodpecker said:

Interesting. This has been the holdup for me on Daniels. With his speed, and the players around him, it makes no sense he would take so many sacks. And I think this chart helps explain the struggles of Howell and Fields. Avoiding sacks seems more a matter of instinct than athleticism.

 

Speed, athleticism and escapability is a hindrance in this case to a degree.

Dudes w/ uber rushing ability or athleticism have much less incentive to give up on a play, and are much more likely to do things that make opportunities for sacks increase.

 

If a play breaks down or there is nothing there, Guys w/ wheels are much less likely to just throw a ball away. They are gonna pull it down and try to make something outta it.

Big dudes can hang around a bit longer in the pocket and throw a pass with guys hanging onto them.

 

I don't care how athletic you are tho, that's gonna result in extra sacks. Your not getting away every time.

 

 

Caleb Williams is a great example of this. Dudes got a legit spidey sense in the pocket and is great at avoiding pressure, yet he took a bazillion sacks this year. Why? Not because hes not athletic enough to avoid it or he lacks the instincts necessary, it because he tries to keep every play alive and it does not matter how good you are at it, that spikes your numbies....

 

 

Unless your Patrick Mahomie...

 

 

Honestly, all three of the big 3 suck raw eggs at that Pressure to Sack statistic and its directly because they are all athletic.

Daniels was like 20% last year. Maye was like 19 and Williams was like 18.

[DogofWar1]

But only one of them had an Oline worth a dang.

[Llevron]

I think the thing I'm worried about more than anything with the chance to take a QB this obviously talented (either of the two) is if the guy we pick gets injured. 

 

I still blame Griffins downfall on his injuries ending his career. The knee and then the ankle. I know he wasn't perfect outside of that but I think with time he could have cleaned a lot of that up. The idea behind drafting these athletic freaks at the position is that the freaky athletics buys them time for the brain to catch up to the game, which is a hard transition for most. Even Mahomes needed a year. And the legs help that. 

 

Getting hurt though, ****s all that up. And that seems to come with the legs, too. Luck, Griffin, Burrow when he still had legs.....that **** scares me. I would hate to get invested again in rooting for a kid and then he just physically cant do it one day. Watching them fail is one thing. Watching it taken from them really actually used to hurt my feelings. I don't get invested like that anymore but damn would it be sad to watch. 

 

All that said; Daniels scares the **** outta me and regardless of talent im leaning to wanting Maye just because I dont see him as as much of a risk. Thats it. 

 

Good year, btw 

 

1987

Edited March 19 by Llevron

[Warhead36]

2 minutes ago, DogofWar1 said:

But only one of them had an Oline worth a dang.

That and Williams and Maye take sacks trying to throw the ball downfield. Daniels takes sacks because he runs as soon as the first read is covered.

[FootballZombie]

Just now, DogofWar1 said:

But only one of them had an Oline worth a dang.

 

P2S does not care about how often you are pressured.

It cares about how often you are sacked when pressured. That could be 2 times a game or 20.

 

 

If your referring to sack rate, I believe Jayden's was lower than Maye's last year, but that can obviously be massively aided by a good Oline

[SoCalSkins]

2 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

That and Williams and Maye take sacks trying to throw the ball downfield. Daniels takes sacks because he runs as soon as the first read is covered.

I have watched Daniels in person when he was at ASU and a ton of his games at ASU on tv  and watched some of his LSU games. I don’t understand how he is even in consideration to be the pick at 2 or 3 overall. He has some very electric college plays but the guy is not going to be a good NFL QB and will probably never have a full season at his size/weight in my opinion. I don’t understand the hype around him at all. 
 

 

[The Consigliere]

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

Pretty much, RGIII's take is pretty weird. The only thing I can think of is that maybe he's just thinking if the player absolutely is dead set against it, then so be it. Only other angle, and its a reasonable one, is the coaching staff and FO in DC is definitely better, but the talent absolutely is not. 

[Koolblue13]

It would be pretty wild if the Vikes could move up into the top 5, while keeping one of their 1rsts and then trade up with us for the 2 1rsts this year and one next year and we come out of it with JJ and our LT this year, while keeping the other 5 top 100 picks and having a second 1rst next year.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

2 hours ago, kingdaddy said:

Wasn't Anthony Richardson considered to be extremely inaccurate and somewhat unrefined as a QB when he came out? He seemed to be doing well before he got knocked out for the season. 

 

Yea....he really improved dramatically over those <checks notes> 3 and a half games he played in September.

 

I like it when people totally invent narratives out of whole cloth.

 

[Panninho]

Looking at some highlights, I am actually not so sure that Daniels' rushing ability will seamlessly translate to the NFL. If I look at the league today, the best rusher is obviously Lamar (who is incredibly fast and agile) but in that second tier you got Jalen Hurts & Josh Allen (strong as hell) and then probably Kyler Murray & Patrick Mahomes (who are incredibly shifty and manipulate defenders as well as anyone). Anthony Richardson who has only played a handful of games is also extremely strong. These guys do not look like Jayden Daniles rushing out there.

I feel like also historically, the strong guys (like Cam Newton) or the shifty guys (like Russell Wilson) give you a big sustainable advantage.

 

Jayden Daniels is really fast but I don't really see a lot of wiggle and lateral agility. To me it seems like he needs a lot of room to run efficiently. Kind of similar to Justin Fields (who is probably just as fast but 30lbs heavier). So I also feel like for him, to efficiently use his rushing ability he needs to scare defenses with his passing ability. That would create that room. That's also the reason to me why other fast QBs like Malik Willis for example were never able to showcase their rushing ability at that level. They just do not scare teams with their arm. RG3 was kind of similar but Shannahan crafted the read option offense where defenses failed to create answers for a while. But the league has adapted. I don't think pure speed from the QB position gives you a comparable advantage as it did back then.

 

So the question you kind of have to answer is can you expect him to bring that rushing element to the league? Beyond just weight concerns, I am not sure whether I believe that to be true.