The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Thinking Skins]

I'm moving this from the FA thread where I mistakenly posted this. 

 

i'm not backing off my argument htat 500+ attempts so early in Sam's career may have hurt Sam's arm, but I also think that Sam is thinking too much right now. And I keep going back to his Wed press conference saying to get the ball out quickly and then the play when he was trying SO HARD to get the ball to TERRY. He was avoiding wide open guys. Thats pressing. That's not going with the offense and that's creating turnovers. But when he has a pocket and drops back to set, he get's pressure right up the middle (like the play at the 9 yard line).

 

But I just can't get over the fact that on that pic he didn't even look at Dotson. it was a 1st and 10 play and he had time, had a pocket, scrambled to the sideline, thats ok cause Dotson was right in front of him but instead he stays focused on Terry who trys to get open and almost does but he does a bad throw and throwes a pic to a dangerous area. 

 

Question is would we do things to stabalize the offense and let Sam regroup but stay in there? Do we have things like that? Like a running game. Do we have the OL for that? Is BRob good enough for that? I was hoping that for this game BRob and Armah coming back would install life into the running game, but BRob didn't come back and CRod and what little we saw of Gibson didn't do anything to the running game. 

And I'm going to go back and say that normally a young QB's best friend is a BIG TE. Early in the year it was Logan Thomas. Look at his game logs

 

1, 8 Tgts,  4 rec, 43 yds, 0TD

2, 3 Tgts,  2 rec, 22 yds, 1TD

3, 3 Tgts,  3 rec, 41 yds, 0TD

4, 11 Tgts,  9 rec, 77 yds, 1TD

5, 1 Tgts,  1 rec, 2 yds, 0TD

6, 6 Tgts,  4 rec, 51 yds, 0TD

7, 8 Tgts,  6 rec, 44 yds, 1TD

8, 5 Tgts,  4 rec, 31 yds, 0TD

9, 5 Tgts,  5 rec, 40 yds, 0TD

10, 8 Tgts,  5 rec, 58 yds, 0TD

11, 4 Tgts,  2 rec, 15 yds, 0TD

12, 1 Tgts,  0 rec, 0 yds, 0TD

13, 3 Tgts,  1 rec, 7 yds, 0TD

 

Notice that three game slump in priduction by Howell coincides with him not going to Thomas. 

[Thinking Skins]

Just now, Thinking Skins said:

I'm moving this from the FA thread where I mistakenly posted this. 

 

i'm not backing off my argument htat 500+ attempts so early in Sam's career may have hurt Sam's arm, but I also think that Sam is thinking too much right now. And I keep going back to his Wed press conference saying to get the ball out quickly and then the play when he was trying SO HARD to get the ball to TERRY. He was avoiding wide open guys. Thats pressing. That's not going with the offense and that's creating turnovers. But when he has a pocket and drops back to set, he get's pressure right up the middle (like the play at the 9 yard line).

 

But I just can't get over the fact that on that pic he didn't even look at Dotson. it was a 1st and 10 play and he had time, had a pocket, scrambled to the sideline, thats ok cause Dotson was right in front of him but instead he stays focused on Terry who trys to get open and almost does but he does a bad throw and throwes a pic to a dangerous area. 

 

Question is would we do things to stabalize the offense and let Sam regroup but stay in there? Do we have things like that? Like a running game. Do we have the OL for that? Is BRob good enough for that? I was hoping that for this game BRob and Armah coming back would install life into the running game, but BRob didn't come back and CRod and what little we saw of Gibson didn't do anything to the running game. 

And I'm going to go back and say that normally a young QB's best friend is a BIG TE. Early in the year it was Logan Thomas. Look at his game logs

 

1, 8 Tgts,  4 rec, 43 yds, 0TD

2, 3 Tgts,  2 rec, 22 yds, 1TD

3, 3 Tgts,  3 rec, 41 yds, 0TD

4, 11 Tgts,  9 rec, 77 yds, 1TD

5, 1 Tgts,  1 rec, 2 yds, 0TD

6, 6 Tgts,  4 rec, 51 yds, 0TD

7, 8 Tgts,  6 rec, 44 yds, 1TD

8, 5 Tgts,  4 rec, 31 yds, 0TD

9, 5 Tgts,  5 rec, 40 yds, 0TD

10, 8 Tgts,  5 rec, 58 yds, 0TD

11, 4 Tgts,  2 rec, 15 yds, 0TD

12, 1 Tgts,  0 rec, 0 yds, 0TD

13, 3 Tgts,  1 rec, 7 yds, 0TD

 

Notice that three game slump in priduction by Howell coincides with him not going to Thomas. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2023/12/20/sam-howell-benched-future/

 

 

That's an article I read this morning. Consider the image they posted. I think it agrees with the stuff I posted here with regards to Logan Thomas. 

 

This image looks at Sam howell, but lets look at Sam to Logan in Weeks 1-8 vs 9-15. 

 

1-8

Tgts: 5.6

Rec: 4.1

TD: 0.375

 

9-15

Tgts: 4.2

Rec: 2.6

TD: 0

 

So we can see a clear stark decrease in production to the TE. 

 

[DWinzit]

^^^ I really wish we had drafted Laporta or Mayer for Sm last year! 

This is making look even more at Stover as we move into the off season. I m hoping there are some decent TE's that end out on the FA market for Sam's sake...or whoever the starter becomes.

[Redwards]

3 hours ago, skinsmania123 said:

Listening to Keim interview former GM Rick Spielman regarding his thoughts on the process the team should take in evaluating Howell.  Said ownership should interview the current staff regarding Howell and ask them straight up if he has what it takes to be a franchise QB. Then getting the new GM and coaches to evaluate him, and of course he hedged a bit when he said "new staff" - But overall, his sentiment is they need to get as much information as possible on Howell, based on watching film, interviewing Howell to understand his decision-making process in game time situations even going through film with him and also determining if he is a leader. He even mentioned interviewing other players regarding Howell. 

 

But Spielman, while he thinks Howell is talented, and does not think they should just pull the plug on him, points out that Howell is not consistent, and makes some poor decisions. 

 

He also pointed out that if they have a shot at a Caleb Williams or Maye, that a HC and GM may not want to pass on them. But that making final decisions on a franchise, particularly when it comes to a QB, the HC, GM and the owner have to have the same philosophy - including the same philosophy on how to create a winning culture. And that for me was a very strong point. We all know what the Snyder era did to destroy any sort of cohesion that should exist there. 

 

One thing that Spielman did point out is if they decided to fortify their roster and stay with Howell another year, that if they could get a player like Marvin Harrison Jr., that he would immediately improve the QB's play, and then he said you add a OT and strengthen the O-line, pointing out that in his opinion it takes 3 years to adequately determine what you have in a QB.  

 

I just thought made some good points on how the evaluation process should take place on an NFL team. 

 

I heard that interview.   Man...the LAST people I would interview for their opinion on Sam Howell is the current staff.  Their level of evaluation is in the freaking toilet.  The last four years is more than proof of that.  🙄

[DWinzit]

20 minutes ago, Redwards said:

I heard that interview.   Man...the LAST people I would interview for their opinion on Sam Howell is the current staff.  Their level of evaluation is in the freaking toilet.  The last four years is more than proof of that.  🙄

Interviews can't hurt but could help. They have been exposed to him for two years and may have valuable insight. They also wouldn't want to give false info as they are hoping for a position with the new regime of to gain another in the NFL and not want to tarnish things with false info

[skinsmania123]

33 minutes ago, Redwards said:

I heard that interview.   Man...the LAST people I would interview for their opinion on Sam Howell is the current staff.  Their level of evaluation is in the freaking toilet.  The last four years is more than proof of that.  🙄

Haha me either, but you know that old saying, even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in a while. So, they might say one or two things that the owner hadn't considered, or an incoming GM didn't think about.  Based upon how ****ty and poorly run this organization has been, it is probably best to cover every possible potentiality when it comes to player personnel.  

[FootballZombie]

1 hour ago, Thinking Skins said:

So we can see a clear stark decrease in production to the TE. 

 

Ill be a happy camper when Bates is the only holdover from this TE group next year. Hard to find a worse collection of TEs.

 

Improving that group will go a long way to helping out the QB next season. We get next to nothing from those guys... which was entirely predictable.

[Warhead36]

12 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

 

Ill be a happy camper when Bates is the only holdover from this TE group next year. Hard to find a worse collection of TEs.

 

Improving that group will go a long way to helping out the QB next season. We get next to nothing from those guys... which was entirely predictable.

Yeah our TEs are atrocious. They have no athleticism, bad hands, and can't even block.

 

As bad as our OL is, our TE group might actually be the worst position group on our roster.

[The Consigliere]

6 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

2024 NFL quarterback market: 13 teams that could add starters

• 
  Bill Barnwell, ESPN Staff Writer

Cardinals

 

 

Contract for 2024: Here's where this gets interesting. Per ESPN's Football Power Index (FPI), the Cards have a 30.6% chance of landing one of the top two picks in April's draft. Doing so would put them in position to pick either Drake Maye (North Carolina) or Caleb Williams (USC). They have a 88.7% chance of finishing with a top-five selection. That could mean a critical helper for Murray such as wideout Marvin Harrison Jr. (Ohio State) -- or a potential Murray replacement in Heisman Trophy winner Jayden Daniels (LSU).

The five years on Murray's $230.5 million extension don't start until next season, although he already has made just under $33 million in new money from that pact. A team trading for him would be on the hook for $109.3 million over three seasons or $124.3 million over four, all of which would be practically guaranteed by his presence on the roster. Those aren't exorbitant salaries in a league in which the going rate for top quarterbacks is north of $50 million, but he has been closer to league-average.

Assuming any potential deal lands before June 1, the Cardinals would owe a record $46.2 million of dead money for Murray's contract on their 2024 cap. With $56 million in cap room, though, they would be able to absorb the hit and be in much better shape for 2025 and beyond. The reduced salary in the years to follow would allow general manager Monti Ossenfort to build more expansively around a passer such as Daniels, Maye or Williams on a rookie deal.

There's also no guarantee the guy the Cardinals draft would be better than Murray. Ossenfort could hold onto his current starter and either grab a key player at another position or trade that top-five pick for multiple first-rounders if a quarterback-needy team wants to move up. We just saw him drop down as part of the Will Anderson Jr. deal last April, yielding picks from the Texans (including an extra first-rounder in 2024). Obviously, a lot depends on what happens over the next few weeks and how this new regime feels about the quarterback they inherited from the prior one.

 

Falcons

 

Most likely QB they'll pursue: Given that the defense has been playing well and Fontenot has been so aggressive in using his first-round picks to add offensive playmakers, I would expect the Falcons to pursue a quarterback in the first round of the draft. FPI projects Atlanta to land the 11th pick, which would put it in position for someone from the second or third tier of quarterback prospects, such as Daniels, J.J. McCarthy (Michigan) or Shedeur Sanders (Colorado), if they enter the draft. Bringing in Tannehill as a bridge option and mentor wouldn't hurt.

 

Bears

 

Most likely QB they'll pursue: Maye or Williams. Trading Fields would still expect to land the Bears a top-40 pick to replace the one they sent the Commanders for Montez Sweat. If Fields was a no-doubt franchise quarterback, this would be a tough choice, but the ability to add a better prospect at a cheaper cost is an opportunity the Bears can't afford to miss.

 

 

Washington Commanders

Current starter: Sam Howell

What happened in Week 15: Ron Rivera cracked. After spending all season committing to Howell as the starter, the Commanders coach finally benched the second-year quarterback after an interception during Sunday's loss to the Rams, turning things over to overqualified backup Jacoby Brissett. Brissett immediately led two scoring drives, going 8-of-10 for 124 yards and sparking the first breakout game all season from star wideout Terry McLaurin.

Immediately after the game, Rivera said that Howell was pulled from the game to "protect" him, and that Howell would be back in the lineup against the Jets on Sunday. Oh well.

How has it gone in 2023? It has been interesting. New offensive coordinator Eric Bieniemy has leaned into the pass, so Howell has thrown a league-high 535 pass attempts. He also leads the NFL with 15 interceptions and 59 sacks, though his sack rate has thankfully come down as the season has gone along. After being sacked on 13.5% of his dropbacks through the first seven games of the season, he has seen his sack rate improve to 6.4% over the ensuing seven starts.

There are unquestionably things to like about Howell. He's tough and mobile. He has a legitimate NFL-caliber arm, and when he gets a chance to step into a throw, Howell can deliver some really impressive passes. If you put together a two-minute highlight reel of the best Howell plays from 2023, he looks like an above-average NFL quarterback.

Of course, there's more to the game than a highlight reel, and Howell's inconsistencies and inexperience show. Despite the big arm, he's only averaging 6.7 yards per attempt. He's also 19-of-60 on deep passes traveling 20 or more yards downfield, and his 64.6 QBR on those throws ranks 26th. Owing to Washington's defense and the heavy pass rate, nobody has more passing yards in garbage time (with a sub-5% win expectancy) than Howell.

 

 

Contract for 2024: Howell will be in Year 3 of his rookie deal. Even if he's pushed into the backup role, the 23-year-old will still be a relative bargain, as he'll make $985,000. There's a Gardner Minshew career path in the future for Howell, even if he's not the long-term starter in Washington. Brissett will be a free agent, and after more than half the league needed to turn to a backup at one point or another this season, the former Browns starter should attract more interest than he did in March.

Other internal candidates: The practice squad option here is Jake Fromm, who was last seen starting for the Joe Judge Giants in 2021.

Ties to any likely free agents: Just about everybody around the NFL expects Rivera to be let go by the team's new ownership group at the end of the season, so we won't know who holds ties to the Commanders until we actually see who ends up making decisions.

Most likely QB they'll pursue: It depends on which path the Commanders choose to take. It looks like Josh Harris and the new ownership group are embracing a much-needed rebuild, which would probably require the Commanders to be patient as they build infrastructure around a potential quarterback of the future. With Washington projected to land the fourth pick in the draft at the moment per ESPN's FPI, it could try to draft Daniels or another of the quarterbacks outside the top two. Trading the pick for much-needed draft capital, giving Howell another season and expecting to bottom out in 2025 might also be a longer-term strategy.

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/insider/insider/story/_/id/39150821/2024-nfl-quarterback-market-teams-starters-offseason-free-agent-trade-draft

 

If we win one of our remaining games, I suspect that last sentence is what will happen. If we lose out, it gets real, real complicated. Of course there's always the possibility we try to move up for Maye or Williams, which I'd be 100% fine with, those guys are better than the best QB's in the '22, '19, '16, '14, and '13 classes, and in the realm of most of the post Luck QB's coming into the draft as prospects. Where they end up is anyone's guess, but if trading up for a Maye or Williams should be an option? Will it be? I doubt it. I think they either draft one at slot, or give Howell another year while the roster around him gets slowly rebuild while aging out in the few spots it isn't total ---. 

 

 

 

[HigSkin]

If there's an ability to trade up for Caleb Williams, then you can't ignore the "why".  Everyone says he's the sure fire #1, closest to Mahomes so why would a team trade out of #1?  I mean whoever the QB is, he's going to be the face of the franchise.

 

Stuff is swirling about the over bearing dad, the kid is soft and immature, etc.  Don't doubt the talent and hope whoever we hire flushes all that out.

 

https://sports.yahoo.com/assessing-red-flags-caleb-williams-215725554.html

 

Albert Breer and Ted Johnson joined Michael Felger on "Sports Sunday" to discuss USC QB Caleb Williams, and how concerning a couple of recent incidents off the field may be

[The Consigliere]

On 12/19/2023 at 12:21 PM, DJHJR86 said:

 

I don't know why any of this matters. Whatever you think of Howell, good or bad, the rest of the roster is total --- too. If you plug in a replacement level, league average guy like "medium Carr or Dalton" this is a 4-6 win team, tops. It's irrelevant. I'm glad he gave Howell the season. Good. Anything else would have been infuriating. Its other things that were issues, like the dumb --- first round selection, and the drafts in general, not building up the OL etc. 

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

11 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

 

Ill be a happy camper when Bates is the only holdover from this TE group next year. Hard to find a worse collection of TEs.

 

Improving that group will go a long way to helping out the QB next season. We get next to nothing from those guys... which was entirely predictable.

 

10 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

Yeah our TEs are atrocious. They have no athleticism, bad hands, and can't even block.

 

As bad as our OL is, our TE group might actually be the worst position group on our roster.

Ron told me that Cole Turner was going to be good. Ron sucks at evaluating.

[TheGoodBits]

20 hours ago, HigSkin said:

If there's an ability to trade up for Caleb Williams, then you can't ignore the "why".  Everyone says he's the sure fire #1, closest to Mahomes so why would a team trade out of #1?  I mean whoever the QB is, he's going to be the face of the franchise.

 

Stuff is swirling about the over bearing dad, the kid is soft and immature, etc.  Don't doubt the talent and hope whoever we hire flushes all that out.

 

https://sports.yahoo.com/assessing-red-flags-caleb-williams-215725554.html

 

Albert Breer and Ted Johnson joined Michael Felger on "Sports Sunday" to discuss USC QB Caleb Williams, and how concerning a couple of recent incidents off the field may be

 

The personality stuff is especially concerning to me because he's absolutely not a finished product at QB. He's a phenomenal improviser with off schedule plays, but his work out of the pocket could use of a ton of improvement. The college game being slow/easy for him has led to a bunch of bad habits with footwork, being careless with the football, throwing off his back foot, etc. All of which can be coached out of him, if he wants to be coached. 

[Warhead36]

36 minutes ago, TheGoodBits said:

 

The personality stuff is especially concerning to me because he's absolutely not a finished product at QB. He's a phenomenal improviser with off schedule plays, but his work out of the pocket could use of a ton of improvement. The college game being slow/easy for him has led to a bunch of bad habits with footwork, being careless with the football, throwing off his back foot, etc. All of which can be coached out of him, if he wants to be coached. 

I don't mind flaws in your game that need to be coached up, but he just comes across as a super diva to me. I mean wanting ownership stake in the team that drafts you? Who the heck asks for that?

 

And the fact that he's from the D.C. area just screams disaster to me. All his local family enablers will bring out the worst in him.

[MartinC]

On 12/21/2023 at 7:30 AM, DWinzit said:

Regarding Howells play and evaluation, he did speak about the negative turn he seemed to take over the past month with inconsistencies and decision making concerns. Thought they should dive into what might have been behind that as well as watching how he finishes up the season. He is resilient, with lots of good attributes and looked very promising early wondering whether he was a one year wonder or the real deal. They would need to vet that out as best they could through the process you hit on in your post.

Its interesting to me that as his sack rate has declined his play has become more inconsistent.

 

I think coaches have been emphasizing to him 'be decisive' and 'get the ball out'. He is at his best holding it, going through reads and making plays down field. Instead hes been taking quick throws to his first read and forcing throws. He looks rushed and out of rhythm.

 

Coaches are right to want to get sacks under control - but you dont throw the baby out with the bath water. I think they have and I think Howell would look a lot better behind a good O'line with a stud a physical stud X receiver with much better coaching.

 

It will come down to how a new GM and HC look at Daniels or Mayes (most likely Daniels) versus Howell. If Howell continues to struggle the next few games it makes a reset at QB more and more likely. I think Howell can be really good - but he needs much better around him on and off the field for that to happen.

[MartinC]

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

I don't mind flaws in your game that need to be coached up, but he just comes across as a super diva to me. I mean wanting ownership stake in the team that drafts you? Who the heck asks for that?

 

And the fact that he's from the D.C. area just screams disaster to me. All his local family enablers will bring out the worst in him.

 

We wont have a shot at Williams - he's almost a lock to go #1 overall. Mayes likely goes #2. Then its about if someone who really wants a QB trades up to take Daniel's at #3. And is that team us ...

[88Comrade2000]

Jets going with Siemian ; so we will win and likely out of position for the top qbs.

 

[MartinC]

Just now, 88Comrade2000 said:

Jets going with Siemian ; so we will win and likely out of position for the top qbs.

 

 

We SHOULD win. But our D will find a way to make him look like prime Joe Namath.

[The Consigliere]

22 hours ago, HigSkin said:

If there's an ability to trade up for Caleb Williams, then you can't ignore the "why".  Everyone says he's the sure fire #1, closest to Mahomes so why would a team trade out of #1?  I mean whoever the QB is, he's going to be the face of the franchise.

 

Stuff is swirling about the over bearing dad, the kid is soft and immature, etc.  Don't doubt the talent and hope whoever we hire flushes all that out.

 

https://sports.yahoo.com/assessing-red-flags-caleb-williams-215725554.html

 

Albert Breer and Ted Johnson joined Michael Felger on "Sports Sunday" to discuss USC QB Caleb Williams, and how concerning a couple of recent incidents off the field may be

 

I tend to think it's always possible to move up. Were the Bengals always gonna take Burrow, the Jags Lawrence? Yes. But what if you offered the Bengals your '20 1st, '22 1st, '24 1st, and 2nd's in '21, '23 and '25 along with a '26 1st? If you blow out whats considered an overpay x3, offering 4 1's, and 3 2's, do they blink, and start reconsidering? Maybe. What if you also throw in Jonathan Allen and Terry McLaurin? There is always a price for anything, the balance is figuring out when it's just too nuts and when it isn't. 

 

For me the balance is really over how many no doubt about it guys have missed, there have been a lot of #1's, but how many guys were HOLY ----! evals? 

The past 25 years I'd argue
'98: Peyton (yes Leaf made a run by Peyton was a 1.01 in '98 for years and years).

'04: Eli

'11: Cam Newton

'12 Luck

'20 Burrow

'21 Lawrence

 

 

Seems like those are the guys?  None were busts, but 2 of the 6 definitely disappointed. Go back to the eighties and there are quite a bit fewer for whatever reason, '83 Elway was famous, I think Steve Young in '84 was up there, Vinny in '87? Any I'm forgetting? Vinny was the bust. 

 

The hit rate historically on no doubt about it QB's is pretty darn high I think and honestly the only guy I can remember who really flagantly 100% busted was probably Vinny the past 30 years. Eli, and Lawrence so far weren't as good as hoped, certainly Eli (Lawrence has more time), but otherwise, Elway hit, Peyton hit, Newton hit (for a while), Luck hit and then was destroyed by franchise malfeasance, Burrow hit, and we wait on Lawrence to see if he can turn the corner. We'll see. 

 

As for Caleb's issues. It will be interesting to see if this is "where smoke=fire" scenario, like RGIII, or if it's just bull----. I don't know. I'd take him anyway, as long as he was first in and last out, the only thing that makes me pause with those guys is if they're lazy workers, or personality poison like Jeff George or both. 

[wit33]

37 minutes ago, MartinC said:

Its interesting to me that as his sack rate has declined his play has become more inconsistent.

 

I think coaches have been emphasizing to him 'be decisive' and 'get the ball out'. He is at his best holding it, going through reads and making plays down field. Instead hes been taking quick throws to his first read and forcing throws. He looks rushed and out of rhythm.

 

 

That’s a valid point.

 

Often times there’s a delicate balance when coaching a player where pushing too hard might steer away from their natural abilities, resulting in a diluted, average version of themselves.

 

It’s baffling to me that EB and the staff chose not to leverage Howell’s dual-threat capabilities during games, especially considering his evident passion for running the football. Allowing a young, athletic QB like him opportunities to utilize his dual-threat potential within an offense is one of the most effective ways to enhance the team’s competence and foster the development of the young quarterback.

 

37 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

Coaches are right to want to get sacks under control - but you dont throw the baby out with the bath water. I think they have and I think Howell would look a lot better behind a good O'line with a stud a physical stud X receiver with much better coaching.

 

It will come down to how a new GM and HC look at Daniels or Mayes (most likely Daniels) versus Howell. If Howell continues to struggle the next few games it makes a reset at QB more and more likely. I think Howell can be really good - but he needs much better around him on and off the field for that to happen.

 

 

He’s akin to a budget version of Josh Allen. Take a cue from Buffalo’s approach in developing him—let Howell run the ball! It would be fantastic if Roman could somehow work with Howell someday, but 90% likely another QB will be handed the franchise via the draft or free agency. 

[Thinking Skins]

24 minutes ago, MartinC said:

Its interesting that hs his sack rate has declined his play has become more inconsistent.

 

I think coaches have been emphasizing to him 'be decisive' and 'get the ball out'. He is at his best holding it, going through reads and making plays down field. Instead hes been taking quick throws to his first read and forcing throws. He looks rushed and out of rhythm.

 

Coaches are right to want to get sacks under control - but you dont throw the baby out with the bath water. I think they have and I think Howell would look a lot better behind a good O'line with a stud a physical stud X receiver with much better coaching.

 

It will come down to how a new GM and HC look at Daniels or Mayes (most likely Daniels) versus Howell. If Howell continues to struggle the next few games it makes a reset at QB more and more likely. I think Howell can be really good - but he needs much better around him on and off the field for that to happen.

I don't think you can say that without saying who he's playing. He has played some of the best Defensive Coordinators in the league. He did have a good game against the Patriots. And we were in it both games against the Giants but they were not his best games. And there is more tape on him now, so these good coordinators can study his tendencies and know what to do to counter it. 

 

So when the Giants played him the first time, it was the first time he really looked shell shocked. Even against the Bills, we were able to move the Ball on some drives early in the game to give us hope. It didn't amount to points but it was something. The Giants 1 was just nothing  for like a whole half. But then halftime came and suddenly we were moving the ball. True we got our points off a turnover, but we did move the ball off a play to Terry that we didn't score on. And we had the ball deep again inside the 10 on that drop by Dotson on the game ending drive. So its not like he didn't come to at the end of the game. 

 

Same with Giants 2. People say we should have blown them out. But I hope that now people realize that was just Ashburh talk. We are not a good team. We should have been in the game we were in. Had we played a better game we would have scored 30 or 35 because we turned the ball over deep in their territory twice (fumble by CRod and int by Howell) that's 14 right there we could have. But we didn't and we were forcing things late and we lost the game. 

 

Same with the Dallas game. This is a top defense in the league. We were down 20-10 late in the 3rd and it was a good game. Many times we were driving deep into Dallas territory (2 or 3 times) but couldn't get points because we were at no mans land were you can't kick a FG and can't punt so you go for it but we didn't get it. So our drives stalled. But we were not a stagnant offense. Then the wheels fell off in the 4th and suddenly we're down 38-10 and we're trying to play comeback so he's trying to be a superhero and throwing balls he shouldn't be throwing and throws a pic 6. 

 

 

These last two games are the only two real games where I have began to worry. These are the only two games where all 3 of his Comp % < 60 and he has less than 200 yards since Dallas of last year. He had the Atlanta game where he had a 60% completion and 151 yards but I made excuses because of the return. But both these games we were behind a lot, and he was the main guy leading the offense. But against the Dolphins we weren't staying on the field or completing third downs. He did score those two rushing TDs though. 

 

Agains the Rams though, I felt like he was pressing because he was listening to outside noise. On his last play, the interception. He forced it to Terry. He had Samuel or Dotson straight ahead, where had scrambled to, and instead threw it to the dangerous middle to Terry. That was just not smart That was what he had been doing all day, he threw it on 4th down to Terry instead of to a WIDE OPEN Williams for a TD. We didn't score that drive. (shows that they trust Williams though to leave him in on 4th down). Either he's not seeing the field any more, which was a thing we were saying was a benefit of him in weeks 1-8 and he wasn't going to key on one WR, but now that he's forcing it to Terry he's not seeing the field. 

 

I think we need to let him see the field, and call these shorter plays like the outlets to Willims (Robinson is out Sunday) where he can see them too and not get mad when he chooses the RB over our $20 million WR. 

[Captain Wiggles]

12 hours ago, Sacks &#x27;n&#x27; Stuff said:

 

Ron told me that Cole Turner was going to be good. Ron sucks at evaluating.

 

Ron said Jamin Davis = Thomas Davis. 🤣

[Rufus T Firefly]

30 minutes ago, The Consigliere said:

 

I tend to think it's always possible to move up. Were the Bengals always gonna take Burrow, the Jags Lawrence? Yes. But what if you offered the Bengals your '20 1st, '22 1st, '24 1st, and 2nd's in '21, '23 and '25 along with a '26 1st? If you blow out whats considered an overpay x3, offering 4 1's, and 3 2's, do they blink, and start reconsidering? Maybe. What if you also throw in Jonathan Allen and Terry McLaurin? There is always a price for anything, the balance is figuring out when it's just too nuts and when it isn't. 

 

For me the balance is really over how many no doubt about it guys have missed, there have been a lot of #1's, but how many guys were HOLY ----! evals? 

The past 25 years I'd argue
'98: Peyton (yes Leaf made a run by Peyton was a 1.01 in '98 for years and years).

'04: Eli

'11: Cam Newton

'12 Luck

'20 Burrow

'21 Lawrence

 

 

Seems like those are the guys?  None were busts, but 2 of the 6 definitely disappointed. Go back to the eighties and there are quite a bit fewer for whatever reason, '83 Elway was famous, I think Steve Young in '84 was up there, Vinny in '87? Any I'm forgetting? Vinny was the bust. 

 

The hit rate historically on no doubt about it QB's is pretty darn high I think and honestly the only guy I can remember who really flagantly 100% busted was probably Vinny the past 30 years. Eli, and Lawrence so far weren't as good as hoped, certainly Eli (Lawrence has more time), but otherwise, Elway hit, Peyton hit, Newton hit (for a while), Luck hit and then was destroyed by franchise malfeasance, Burrow hit, and we wait on Lawrence to see if he can turn the corner. We'll see. 

 

As for Caleb's issues. It will be interesting to see if this is "where smoke=fire" scenario, like RGIII, or if it's just bull----. I don't know. I'd take him anyway, as long as he was first in and last out, the only thing that makes me pause with those guys is if they're lazy workers, or personality poison like Jeff George or both. 

You can't trade draft picks that far into the future. You are suggesting  giving 1sts in alternate years, which would make sense in the NBA, which has rules about not having 1s in consecutive years, but the NFL doesn't have such a rule. 

 

For the record, I never considered Cam to be a slam dunk franchise QB, and still don't. 

[HigSkin]

There's some good stuff in here about the offense design and a future HC coach (mentioned Ben Johnson) might use Sam and this receiver group better then EB.  Talked a lot about helping Sam with scheme.

 

 

Edited December 22, 2023 by HigSkin

[Voice_of_Reason]

On 12/21/2023 at 8:58 AM, skinsmania123 said:

Listening to Keim interview former GM Rick Spielman

I listened, and then I went to look up Spielman's resume.  Sure, he was a GM for a long time.  2012 - 2021.

 

He is the one who hired Mike Zimmer.  He also is the one who signed Kirk to a contract he clearly didn't deserve that contract.  good player, not that contract good.  Which really caused issues with the rest of the roster.  

 

Here are the records for the team's he was the GM of:

2012: 10-6 (Lost wildcard to Packers)

2013: 5-10-1

2014: 7-9

2015: 10-6 (lost wildcard to the Seahawks)

2016: 8-8

2017: 13-3 (This was the Case Keenum year: made it to the NFC championship game on that ridiculously lucky play to beat the Saints, then lost to the 49ers.

-- SIGNED KIRK

2018: 8-8

2019: 10-6 (won Wild Card Round, lost division round to 49ers)

2020: 7-9

2021: 8-9

FIRED.  

 

So, he had 4 winning seasons, 4 losing seasons, and 2 8-8 seasons. Overall winning percentage of .534. Never had winning seasons back to back.  

 

His biggest move clearly hasn't worked out the way they were hoping it would. The QB he drafted high was Teddy Bridgewater.  Injuries played a role in derailing that experience, but he wasn't what they wanted either.  

 

So, my overall point: was he really that good at his job and should anybody take into account his opinion on how to pick a QB?

 

This is not in any way a repudiation of what he said. I don't even remember what he said.  It's more, is this persona REALLY an expert witness?  And does his track record indicate he's somebody who's opinion is worthy of reporting?  It's like if Matt Millen tried to offer GM advice.  Or, in a few years, some random person talking to Martin Mahew.  

 

The media tends to grab out-of-work (read: fired) folks in previous roles to give insight to things which got them fired.  And I find that interesting.