The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[redskinss]

19 hours ago, seantaylor=god said:

hate what we gave up for him but I am excited about him as a player. I would have been doing backflips if we got him in FA. 

You'd be doing backflips over a player who's not worthy of a 3rd and 2nd?

That just makes no sense to me.

Maybe you're over valuing draft picks a little because you'll have less presents to open on Christmas morning?

 

I think this video sums up the phenomenon pretty well.

 

 

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Just now, wit33 said:

I speculate there will be a pretty clear consensus of what Wentz is by seasons end and whether he should be the long term QB. He’s not a middling QB from standpoint of playing things safe, it’s going to be one extreme or the other. The Colts tried their best to put a governor on him, which I disagree with doing and hope Ron and company don’t subscribe to. Let the dude pursue his path and find out one way or other whether he can return his previous form of playing free and with no cares in the world. 

 

I agree that we'll have a good idea of what Wentz is by the season's end, however nothing around here is consensus  

 

I disagree that it'll be one extreme or the other...the extremes being top flight QB who we feel that can lead us on a deep playoff run and keep us atop the NFC East for years to come....or the opposite, an all out bust who's terrible and needs to be replaced immediately.

 

Either one of those outcomes would be fantastic.  If he's the former, well, awesome.  We've solved the QB problem for years to come.  If he's the latter, well, more of the same and the search continues to find a franchise QB and we'll probably have to gamble in next years draft.  In either situation, at least you know where you stand.

 

Ending up somewhere in the middle is problematic because then you don't know where you stand.  Sometimes Wentz looks like a legit franchise guy, other times he looks like horse****.  Wentz throws for 350 yards and three touchdowns but it's the late interception that kills a game winning drive.  Great stats, but poor decisions in crunchtime leading to losses in what could have been a winnable game, but then has a monster game the next week and you start dreaming on him finally turning the corner.  But then you we're backing into the playoffs, etc, etc.  

 

That outcome, IMO, is the absolute worst.  Because at that point if we're perpetually a 9-8 team or an 8-9 team, we're not threatening for a playoff run nor are we looking out for that rookie stud QB.  We're just mired around .500 football, two steps forward, one step back...one step forward, two back.  Look great one week, look mediocre the next.  And that, to me, is the worst.  Because this franchise will always try to sell you on the idea that THIS IS THE YEAR as they do every year.  And that if we can get a gamebreaking WR, or if we can get a great RB, or if we can get a stud TE, we can win THIS YEAR.  Because it's easier to find any one of those than to find a replacement for a quarterback who is very good, sometimes great but can't get you to the promised land.  

 

Honestly, I'd rather be 3-14 every year and trying to rebuild than playing that .500 football where you think the team is about to turn the corner, that's the absolute worst.  

[MrJL]

4 hours ago, redskinss said:

You'd be doing backflips over a player who's not worthy of a 3rd and 2nd?

That just makes no sense to me.

Maybe you're over valuing draft picks a little because you'll have less presents to open on Christmas morning?

 

I think this video sums up the phenomenon pretty well.

 

 

some people don't want to give up anything

[Redwards]

5 hours ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

I agree that we'll have a good idea of what Wentz is by the season's end, however nothing around here is consensus  

 

I disagree that it'll be one extreme or the other...the extremes being top flight QB who we feel that can lead us on a deep playoff run and keep us atop the NFC East for years to come....or the opposite, an all out bust who's terrible and needs to be replaced immediately.

 

Either one of those outcomes would be fantastic.  If he's the former, well, awesome.  We've solved the QB problem for years to come.  If he's the latter, well, more of the same and the search continues to find a franchise QB and we'll probably have to gamble in next years draft.  In either situation, at least you know where you stand.

 

Ending up somewhere in the middle is problematic because then you don't know where you stand.  Sometimes Wentz looks like a legit franchise guy, other times he looks like horse****.  Wentz throws for 350 yards and three touchdowns but it's the late interception that kills a game winning drive.  Great stats, but poor decisions in crunchtime leading to losses in what could have been a winnable game, but then has a monster game the next week and you start dreaming on him finally turning the corner.  But then you we're backing into the playoffs, etc, etc.  

 

That outcome, IMO, is the absolute worst.  Because at that point if we're perpetually a 9-8 team or an 8-9 team, we're not threatening for a playoff run nor are we looking out for that rookie stud QB.  We're just mired around .500 football, two steps forward, one step back...one step forward, two back.  Look great one week, look mediocre the next.  And that, to me, is the worst.  Because this franchise will always try to sell you on the idea that THIS IS THE YEAR as they do every year.  And that if we can get a gamebreaking WR, or if we can get a great RB, or if we can get a stud TE, we can win THIS YEAR.  Because it's easier to find any one of those than to find a replacement for a quarterback who is very good, sometimes great but can't get you to the promised land.  

 

Honestly, I'd rather be 3-14 every year and trying to rebuild than playing that .500 football where you think the team is about to turn the corner, that's the absolute worst.  

I think Wentz will do just enough to convince Ron that he's the long term guy.  Or, moreover, I think Ron will convince himself that a 9 win season under Wentz means he's the franchise guy.  We never seem to get a clear cut answer from a player in these situations.  I'd be absolutely stunned if we get a definitive answer from Wentz one way or the other.  

 

IMHO, I see Ron convincing himself that Wentz is the guy (because Ron's desperate for a respectable season, which Wentz will probably get us to and Ron - by all accounts - doesn't want a young rookie QB) and sign him to a big, long-term contract that absolutely dooms this franchise to false hope 9 win seasons (or thereabouts) and maybe a 1 win playoff appearances for years.  I absolutely expect this to be the case and will freaking stunned if we don't end up in that crap situation.

Edited April 27, 2022 by Redwards

[Spaceman Spiff]

16 hours ago, Redwards said:

I think Wentz will do just enough to convince Ron that he's the long term guy.  Or, moreover, I think Ron will convince himself that a 9 win season under Wentz means he's the franchise guy.  We never seem to get a clear cut answer from a player in these situations.  I'd be absolutely stunned if we get a definitive answer from Wentz one way or the other.  

 

IMHO, I see Ron convincing himself that Wentz is the guy (because Ron's desperate for a respectable season, which Wentz will probably get us to and Ron - by all accounts - doesn't want a young rookie QB) and sign him to a big, long-term contract that absolutely dooms this franchise to false hope 9 win seasons (or thereabouts) and maybe a 1 win playoff appearances for years.  I absolutely expect this to be the case and will freaking stunned if we don't end up in that crap situation.

 

Yep, that's the worst case for this team, I agree.

 

I hate, hate, hate rooting for a .500 team.  I think it's more evident in baseball when they're practically playing every day and you think that a good week of 5 or 6 games might be the turning point.  My Orioles finished 81-81 on the dot a few years ago and that season was more frustrating than any losing season they've had.  

 

But I digress.  I agree, I expect this to be the case for this franchise moving forward with Wentz here.  Slightly above mediocre, moments of brilliance but never a legit playoff threat.  

[Redwards]

44 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

Yep, that's the worst case for this team, I agree.

 

I hate, hate, hate rooting for a .500 team.  I think it's more evident in baseball when they're practically playing every day and you think that a good week of 5 or 6 games might be the turning point.  My Orioles finished 81-81 on the dot a few years ago and that season was more frustrating than any losing season they've had.  

 

But I digress.  I agree, I expect this to be the case for this franchise moving forward with Wentz here.  Slightly above mediocre, moments of brilliance but never a legit playoff threat.  

You can already see seeds of this with Rivera's comments about our four game stretch of wins last year.  He harps and harps about them as to being proof as to what we can be.  Man...nearly every team can cherry pick portions of their seasons and say the same thing.  What about all the other terrible games?  That four game stretch means nothing more than all the other non-winning teams that have good little stretches.

 

This is a perfect example of why I can easily see Ron talking himself into Wentz (if he hasn't already) as being the long-term guy even if Wentz only accomplishes what I touched on earlier. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

In fairness to Ron, I don't think he's out of his mind in believing that respectable QB play changes a lot for this team.  This team has shown the ability to play well even with a QB that had no ability to stretch the field at all.  If you look at the way the season ended, even beyond the injuries, it was obvious that we had absolutely no answers on offense at the QB position as defenses adjusted to us.  

 

He's hoping to get the best out of a guy who has shown the ability to do it before.  Doesn't mean it's going to happen, but we know it's in there somewhere - which is more than can be said for any other option we had at our disposal.  He's not crazy for thinking Wentz could have some gas left in the tank and could be a big difference maker for us.  I highly doubt Ron is sitting around crossing his fingers for .500 seasons so he can keep his job.  You can disagree with his strategy to get there, but it's insulting to suggest that his goal is to simply be better than mediocre.

 

 

[oraphus]

4 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

In fairness to Ron, I don't think he's out of his mind in believing that respectable QB play changes a lot for this team.  This team has shown the ability to play well even with a QB that had no ability to stretch the field at all.  If you look at the way the season ended, even beyond the injuries, it was obvious that we had absolutely no answers on offense at the QB position as defenses adjusted to us.  

 

He's hoping to get the best out of a guy who has shown the ability to do it before.  Doesn't mean it's going to happen, but we know it's in there somewhere - which is more than can be said for any other option we had at our disposal.  He's not crazy for thinking Wentz could have some gas left in the tank and could be a big difference maker for us.  I highly doubt Ron is sitting around crossing his fingers for .500 seasons so he can keep his job.  You can disagree with his strategy to get there, but it's insulting to suggest that his goal is to simply be better than mediocre.

 

 

If Skins get even an 80% of the 2017 Wentz version, we will get top 10qb play in the NFL. Thats the hope... although reality could work out starkly different. I believe the skill and ability is there.. but mentally he is somewhat broken. Riverra is banking on fixing the mental part.. thats a tough sell.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

6 minutes ago, oraphus said:

If Skins get even an 80% of the 2017 Wentz version, we will get top 10qb play in the NFL. Thats the hope... although reality could work out starkly different. I believe the skill and ability is there.. but mentally he is somewhat broken. Riverra is banking on fixing the mental part.. thats a tough sell.

Yeah, I'm under no illusion that it's a guarantee he resurrects his career here.  Just on history alone, this team never gets it right at this position and worse when we make a trade.  I just can't hate the guy for making what was the best possible acquisition we could make at the position or for believing he can win and get hot with him at QB in the right circumstances.  I don't think he's crazy for thinking that but I also wouldn't bet on it.

[evmiii]

Carson Wentz knows this is last shot.  He will be throwing to the best set of WRs he has had with Terry, Samuel and Brown (and most likely a new WR they draft tonight.  I am confident we will be a better team.  I will be very surprised if he doesn’t do enough to convince Ron that he is the guy. I also believe with the guys around he can be the guy.  Real question in my mind is if the D is going to live up to their potential.  If they can be a top 5 defense like a couple years ago there is no reason this can’t be an 11/12 win team.

[UK Mitch]

My original reaction was why???? But after seeing the other options in FA and the draft I think its a good move. If we can strike this weekend and get some playmakers and protection I believe Wentz will have a great year 

[Redwards]

2 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

In fairness to Ron, I don't think he's out of his mind in believing that respectable QB play changes a lot for this team.  This team has shown the ability to play well even with a QB that had no ability to stretch the field at all.  If you look at the way the season ended, even beyond the injuries, it was obvious that we had absolutely no answers on offense at the QB position as defenses adjusted to us.  

 

He's hoping to get the best out of a guy who has shown the ability to do it before.  Doesn't mean it's going to happen, but we know it's in there somewhere - which is more than can be said for any other option we had at our disposal.  He's not crazy for thinking Wentz could have some gas left in the tank and could be a big difference maker for us.  I highly doubt Ron is sitting around crossing his fingers for .500 seasons so he can keep his job.  You can disagree with his strategy to get there, but it's insulting to suggest that his goal is to simply be better than mediocre.

 

 

I don't believe Ron wants to just be mediocre.  I know that man wants to win - he's been vocal about it.  I just do not trust his decision making nor the decision-making prowess of the men he brought into the FO enough where I believe they can make this club into a consistent winner.  I just don't.  That's really what it boils down to.  (Now, to be fair, I'm not sure anyone on earth can do that under Dan.)   I've been very vocal about my admiration for Ron the man.  I respect him very much.  Ron the coach and decision maker is another story though.  

 

Where I come out is that I believe (and of course, this is just my own opinion on the matter) that Ron is so desperate for even an average QB that Wentz accomplishing say, maybe two 9 win seasons in a row will have Ron convincing himself in light of such a feat that Wentz is worth signing long-term.  

 

I can easily see Ron doing that instead of going back into the hunt for a true franchise QB.  (That's quite a journey to undertake, especially years into a coaching tenure that hasn't produced much.)  In fact, I believe Ron will do that should Wentz accomplish something along the lines of the above scenario.  Desperation and the unappealing prospect of getting back out into the QB dating circuit, if you will, has and will always continue to influence many a decision maker's mind.  Obviously only time will tell.  

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

30 minutes ago, Redwards said:

I don't believe Ron wants to just be mediocre.  I know that man wants to win - he's been vocal about it.  I just do not trust his decision making nor the decision-making prowess of the men he brought into the FO enough where I believe they can make this club into a consistent winner.  I just don't.  That's really what it boils down to.  (Now, to be fair, I'm not sure anyone on earth can do that under Dan.)   I've been very vocal about my admiration for Ron the man.  I respect him very much.  Ron the coach and decision maker is another story though.  

 

Where I come out is that I believe (and of course, this is just my own opinion on the matter) that Ron is so desperate for even an average QB that Wentz accomplishing say, maybe two 9 win seasons in a row will have Ron convincing himself in light of such a feat that Wentz is worth signing long-term.  

 

I can easily see Ron doing that instead of going back into the hunt for a true franchise QB.  (That's quite a journey to undertake, especially years into a coaching tenure that hasn't produced much.)  In fact, I believe Ron will do that should Wentz accomplish something along the lines of the above scenario.  Desperation and the unappealing prospect of getting back out into the QB dating circuit, if you will, has and will always continue to influence many a decision maker's mind.  Obviously only time will tell.  

I guess I just can’t blame Ron for wanting out of QB purgatory and having no interest in trusting any QB in this years draft class to get them out of it.  
 

Ideally, we’d get a QB better than Wentz, but we’ve been on this train for a few decades now.  They don’t grow on trees and this team is too good to bottom out and draft near the top of the draft next year.  And even if they could do that, who is to say they hit on the right QB there?  If worst comes to worst, we still have the draft capital it would take to move up in next years draft if we feel strongly about one.

[wit33]

52 minutes ago, Redwards said:

I don't believe Ron wants to just be mediocre.  I know that man wants to win - he's been vocal about it.  I just do not trust his decision making nor the decision-making prowess of the men he brought into the FO enough where I believe they can make this club into a consistent winner.  I just don't.  That's really what it boils down to.  (Now, to be fair, I'm not sure anyone on earth can do that under Dan.)   I've been very vocal about my admiration for Ron the man.  I respect him very much.  Ron the coach and decision maker is another story though.  

 

Where I come out is that I believe (and of course, this is just my own opinion on the matter) that Ron is so desperate for even an average QB that Wentz accomplishing say, maybe two 9 win seasons in a row will have Ron convincing himself in light of such a feat that Wentz is worth signing long-term.  

 

I can easily see Ron doing that instead of going back into the hunt for a true franchise QB.  (That's quite a journey to undertake, especially years into a coaching tenure that hasn't produced much.)  In fact, I believe Ron will do that should Wentz accomplish something along the lines of the above scenario.  Desperation and the unappealing prospect of getting back out into the QB dating circuit, if you will, has and will always continue to influence many a decision maker's mind.  Obviously only time will tell.  

I have become disgusted by coaches and players playing it safe and attempting to preserve another year of earnings, but also realize it’s extremely difficult to rise above mediocre in the NFL. Ron continues to lament the fact this is a big year and I respect him for being bold and embracing this fact. His first two seasons had me a bit worried, but he’s stuck to his word and plan about needing to win in year 3. 
 

Time to put up a big season. The scheduled projects to be reasonable and has his guys and system on both sides of the ball rolling into year 3. 

[Est.1974]

Based on how the draft is going at QB, how the hell can anyone complain about this trade ????

[FootballZombie]

1 hour ago, Est.1974 said:

Based on how the draft is going at QB, how the hell can anyone complain about this trade ????

 

Same reasons as b4.

 

This draft changes nothing about my complaints.

[Est.1974]

1 minute ago, FootballZombie said:

 

Same reasons as b4.

 

This draft changes nothing about my complaints.

I actually don’t know what they were b4 but any complaints baffle me. Maybe we’ve been spoilt by great QB (that I’ve missed) like Irsay, that we take it for granted.

[Skinsinparadise]

Sam Howell I think wins the #2 job easy in camp even if he's not annoited from the jump.  What do you think @KDawg?

 

 

 

[KDawg]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Sam Howell I think wins the #2 job easy in camp even if he's not annoited from the jump.  What do you think @KDawg?

 

 

 

 

I'd see what we can get for Wentz now.

 

I'd sign Dustin Crum in UDFA to be the backup.

 

Wish Heinicke the best in his future endeavors.

[FootballZombie]

1 minute ago, Est.1974 said:

I actually don’t know what they were b4 but any complaints baffle me. Maybe we’ve been spoilt by great QB (that I’ve missed) like Irsay, that we take it for granted.

 

Cliifnotes of complaints

-Cost to acquire was too high

-Paying him 28 Mil this yr

-Neon red behavior warning lights

-Not a trade prospect if fails, since he will cost well over 20 M leaving us in same boat as w/ Taylor this yr. Need a QB to trade for a QB

-Generally regarded as below avg starting QB by practically everyone off this board

-Previous stops ended in high drama, large risk of side-show

 

 

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

Sam Howell I think wins the #2 job easy in camp even if he's not annoited from the jump. 

 

I need a UDFA. I don't want Howell running the scout team in season when he should be learning the offense and TH does not have the arm strength to do it.

[Est.1974]

17 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

 

Cliifnotes of complaints

-Cost to acquire was too high

-Paying him 28 Mil this yr

-Neon red behavior warning lights

-Not a trade prospect if fails, since he will cost well over 20 M leaving us in same boat as w/ Taylor this yr. Need a QB to trade for a QB

-Generally regarded as below avg starting QB by practically everyone off this board

-Previous stops ended in high drama, large risk of side-show

Ok thanks for updating me. Let’s see how it goes in 2022.

[88Comrade2000]

Cut Taylor now.

[FootballZombie]

Thread title may need to change

[zCommander]

12 hours ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

Cut Taylor now.

 

Ron said no and that he will backup Wentz. 

 

2 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

Thread title may need to change

 

Yes it does.

 

[goskins10]

13 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

 

Cliifnotes of complaints

-Cost to acquire was too high

 

Then we got a massive haul for dropping just 5 spots in the draft. a 3rd this year and a 3rd next is = to a 3rd and 4th this year. Exactly the same. 

 

13 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

-Paying him 28 Mil this yr

 

CAP can be rearranged so it did not stop any FA signings, literally none. By paying it all at once if it does not work out he can be cut immediately. 

 

13 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

-Neon red behavior warning lights

 

This is at the very least grossly exaggerated (as its the comment above) by the front offices while the players all say he was a great teammate. With Philly they dumped the entire coaching staff and Wentz. Then like they did with D Jackson (which was proven bull****) they trashed him on the way out. With the colts, it was the drug addict owner who whined because he lost to Jacksonville in Jacksonville, something every QB since 2015 did including Andrew Luck and Philip Rivers. Wentz beat them at home. Pallard and F Riech clearly were not on the same page. And before you say it, Ballard was being sarcastic when he said they had no plan when they traded Wentz. I listened to the entire podcast several times. Its clear he was not really on the same page as the drug addict.   He may not have been the best liked guy in the locker-room. But based on player input, you know the people actually in the locker-room, he was a very good teammate maybe just a bit aloof. FOs used it as cover to move on. Neither of those FOs are exactly beacons of excellence. Colts on their 6th QB in 6 yrs - Philly fired the entire staff the same year they traded Wentz. 

 

13 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

-Not a trade prospect if fails, since he will cost well over 20 M leaving us in same boat as w/ Taylor this yr. Need a QB to trade for a QB

This point makes no sense. If he fails he has no value but he costs nothing. He can be released with no dead cap. WHat it does do is get us to next year with all our 1s and 2s in tact (he will not meet the threashold if failing to move the 3rd to a 2nd) in a draft that is a much better class for QBs. 

 

13 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

-Generally regarded as below avg starting QB by practically everyone off this board

 

This is generally bull**** without data to support it. His physical attributes and ability have led to average to above average statistics as are most of his numbers. Last year: 27 TD to only 7ints. Comp % is a little low at 62%  but stretches the field a lot which lowers his comp% some. This team has not had someone with an arm like this is a very long time. He had a 94.6 QBR and an AV of 14 per PFF. 

 

13 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

-Previous stops ended in high drama, large risk of side-show

 

Same as above, can't double dip but it's just as exaggerated here as it was above. 

 

 

In the end I have no idea if Wentz can be the long-term answer. I can say to a certainty that despite the irrational hate for the trade it was a relatively low-cost chance that at worst pushes the can down to next year with a much better group of QBs with no additional cost and all our 1s and 2s or at best he becomes the franchise QB his physical capabilities suggest he can be.