The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[FootballZombie]

45 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

Chase Young

 

Interesting you should bring him up as his situation is a microcosm of Wentz.

 

Started hot, but got humbled by the the league. Now a lot of his previous choices face extra scrutiny (Chasing money, staying away from the team, ect.)

 

It was not nearly as much of a problem when he was producing, but now that he failed to do so last last season, 1 and/or 2 things have to happen.

 

1.) Return to his previous productive form, so the "other stuff" is overlooked. Nobody cares if you ball.

and/or

2.) Adjust your behavior

 

Young is taking steps towards route 2 w/ his appearance at OTAs this year, we will see if he can return to form as well this coming season.

 

 

Wentz is facing these two pathways as well. He has the benefit of being a QB however, and several QBs across the NFL like Rodgers and Watson have demonstrated this season that as long as you can produce on the field, the leash provided to you is insanely large. You can be the biggest douche on the planet and the impact would be negligible as long as you ball.

 

Of course you want both pathways to be realized, but realistically, you only require 1 for some chance at success.

 

Edit: Come to think of it RG3 had this same issue. Early success going to the head is a dangerous thing.

Edited April 21, 2022 by FootballZombie

[Thinking Skins]

On 4/18/2022 at 8:50 PM, Voice_of_Reason said:

I get that.  But we need 2 additional QBs.  One practice squad/camp arm type.  And one guy who can be the third string (or push TH for the backup). We’ve used 3 QBs per year since 2018.  We need 3 who can play.

 

I’d be fine grabbing one in the 4th or 5th.

 

Also, thinking down the road, that’s about the territory you get backups. If you get a backup QB for 3 years on a rookie 4th/5th round contract, that’s pretty good.  

I hear that and kind of believe it, but I'd still be looking at getting UDFA guys to come in here. Even if one is all heart like Heinicke and one is a small college guy with upside like Glass. But we have too much riding on this season to waste another pick on a Cousins type. 

[kingdaddy]

10 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Listened to Galdi's interview with Chris Long this morning on his podcast.  It was very interesting.  Chris Long played with Carson in 2017 and 2018 in Philly.  

 

Here's a brief summary:

 

-  Chris kept saying he thought Carson was "a really good guy."  (I think he repeated it like 4 or 5 times.  Even at one point said "he's my guy."  Said that was important for everybody to know because it seemed like he had been portrayed as an "ax murderer" which isn't true.  (His words, not mine.)

 

-  He said the biggest thing with Carson seemed to be he was a bit stubborn.  Both on the field and off.  A Ron Rivera word choice might have been "maturity."  

 

-  He said that Carson hasn't played as well has he had in 2017, but that probably wasn't realistic anymore.  He did say he would "take a bet on the upside," because there is plenty of upside left.  He said (paraphrasing) "You don't need 2017 Carson.  But he still has enough to be extremely successful." He went on to list all of the upside things, which I won't do here. But it was the list we all know about. 

 

-  He did say bluntly (several times) Carson needs to figure out how to be a better teammate.  He said that's an area he needs to work on.  I think if you boil it down, Carson seems like a bit of a loner, an introvert.  He doesn't have that magnetic personality that draws people to him or commands a room when he walks into it.  Long said that's fine, but he needs to find new ways to connect with his teammates, because that's really important for a QB. He also mentioned, when you're playing at an MVP level, nobody cares.  But if you're not, this is really important.  

 

-  He said there were 3 things which Carson needs to do in order to be successful: 

a) Know when to "Burn the ball" ie: know when a play is over and either hit the checkdown, throw the ball away, whatever.  He said this was somewhat part of the stubbornness: Carson doesn't like to give up on plays and he stubbornly tries to make the best of every play.  

b) Find ways to connect to his teammates better, develop relationships with them.  Specifically on offense, but really across the board.  

c) He has to make the transition quickly, "it's not like being a first round pick anymore. He needs to learn the offense, there can't be a slow month, there can't be a slow start."

 

- (I thought this was REALLY insightful) Questioned his mindset, whether Carson was going to start over (learn from his mistakes and evolve) or "do thing he's been doing harder." (Which would translate into pressing and not playing within the confines of the offense.  To me, this is probably the biggest question. We won't know the answer for a while.

 

- Long said he thinks Wentz is going to be extremely motivated and be "the best version of himself."

 

- He addressed the scuffle between him and Sproles.  Long said he had never heard about the scuffle until 2 months ago.  He said he has no idea if it happened or not, and didn't defend Carson, but he did say it's really difficult to be hurt in the league.  And even he had days when it was really hard for him to watch his teammates play and not be able to contribute.  He said it's more than possible he might have meant something rather innocuous like "Damn, I really want to be out there with the guys" but it didn't come out right, and Sproles, as a veteran, called him on it.  And then tempers might have flared.  However, again, Long said he never heard of this incident until the reporting 2 months ago, so take that for what you will.

 

Overall, my key takeaways:

-  I REALLY hope changing systems and schemes and having an entirely new set of people in his ears allow him to completely hit the reset button.  

 

-  I REALLY hope Turner is able to design a system which fits Carson, and allows him to take enough deep shots where he might feel comfortable giving up on plays.  I have this thought maybe the Pederson/Reich WCO style offense limited the down-field opportunities in favor of quick-game and mid-level throws, when Carson had an opportunity to take a deep shot, he just wouldn't let it go.  Maybe Turner's system is a better fit for him.

 

-  I think working specifically with Rivera might be a game changer for him.  Rivera strikes me as a guy who really can connect with just about anybody.  And I think having that kind of connection with Wentz could really do him wonders in the personal interaction department.  

 

So there you have it.  

 

So much is riding on Wentz working out.  I think there's a very good chance he does.  But I also think Chris Long's advice is really insightful, and I hope somebody gives it to him.  

Long is a good source. Wentz is in a make or break season for sure...he's got an easy schedule and tons of support/hope from teammates. I hope he does what he needs to do cause we need him to be great. I believe our defense will have a lot to say about how far Wentz takes us...between Chase and Wentz its step up time.

Edited April 22, 2022 by kingdaddy
typo

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

I hear that and kind of believe it, but I'd still be looking at getting UDFA guys to come in here. Even if one is all heart like Heinicke and one is a small college guy with upside like Glass. But we have too much riding on this season to waste another pick on a Cousins type. 

I get that. And I’d be ok with that approach to an extent.  Id prefer to get a more talented young guy in to push TH, and give them options on 2023.  But I also see the point of just going full bore into this year with as many players who can contribute.  

 

However I definitely think Strong would be a good pick in the 5th.  Maybe you use the 4th for a depth prospect.  But if Strong is there in the 5th, I’d do it.  I don’t think he’ll be there, though.  

[RWJ]

39 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I get that. And I’d be ok with that approach to an extent.  Id prefer to get a more talented young guy in to push TH, and give them options on 2023.  But I also see the point of just going full bore into this year with as many players who can contribute.  

 

However I definitely think Strong would be a good pick in the 5th.  Maybe you use the 4th for a depth prospect.  But if Strong is there in the 5th, I’d do it.  I don’t think he’ll be there, though.  

I think Strong goes at the end of the 3rd, no later than the very early 4th.  JMO.  

[Est.1974]

5 hours ago, RWJ said:

I think Strong goes at the end of the 3rd, no later than the very early 4th.  JMO.  

I’d like us to draft him, feels like we may not be positioned to get him. Or we may not have enough draft capital to take a QB as early as I’d like. 
 

He does seem like a very viable back up option to Wentz though.

[Voice_of_Reason]

Galdi this morning had Samuel Gold on.  He's a film study guy with a YouTub following of ~100k. 

 

He hates the Wentz trade.  Said he hated giving up the 2 picks, and he hated taking on the salary.  And he doesn't like him as a player.  

 

Then he went on to basically say that he didn't have a top half of the first round grade on any QB in the draft.  I believe his order was something like 

- Willis (mid-first)

- Ridder (mid to late first)

- Howell (early second)

- Pickett (mid second)

- Corral (late second/early third)

 

When asked about whether it's worth taking a QB in the 2nd+ round, he (and Galdi) noted it has been since Dak in 2016 since we've had a 2nd round+ QB turn into a franchise guy.  Gold agreed, and said if you think a guy has franchise upside, you take them in the first round.

 

Now, look at his grades above.  That means he doesn't really believe much in ANY of these guys, except Willis and RIdder to some extent.  

 

When asked what he thought the Commanders should have done instead of trading for Wentz, he said essentially, just wait.  See if Baker Baker the Touchdown Maker was going to come free, if somebody else (Ryan?) would have been willing to move, what they could do in the draft.

 

Well, so here's the conundrum:  If you sit back and wait, you might be in the situation of Carolina or the Seahawks, who might feel compelled to draft a guy who's not worthy of the pick at QB.

 

There was no way to know Baker was going to be available when the trade was made, because at that point, nobody even knew Cleveland was in the Watson sweepstakes.

 

There was no way to know Ryan was going to be available.  In fact, the Commanders called and asked if he was available, and were told no.  

 

This is another take which seems emotional vs. fact driven.  It's like presenting a problem and then having absolutely no solution to it.

 

They HAD to do something.  Rodgers/Wilson/Carr all were settled before the trade.  Trubisky/Mariota/Teddy all are reclamation projects, all with some upside but no certainty. And the draft is unimpressive.  I'm glad we're not dealing with the Watson situation.  And Baker and Ryan weren't available.

 

So, you have to get a guy.  They got a guy.  They can get out of it after a year if it's a debacle.  

 

I still don't understand why people hate on the trade as much as they continue to.  

[wit33]

25 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Galdi this morning had Samuel Gold on.  He's a film study guy with a YouTub following of ~100k. 

 

He hates the Wentz trade.  Said he hated giving up the 2 picks, and he hated taking on the salary.  And he doesn't like him as a player.  

 

Then he went on to basically say that he didn't have a top half of the first round grade on any QB in the draft.  I believe his order was something like 

- Willis (mid-first)

- Ridder (mid to late first)

- Howell (early second)

- Pickett (mid second)

- Corral (late second/early third)

 

When asked about whether it's worth taking a QB in the 2nd+ round, he (and Galdi) noted it has been since Dak in 2016 since we've had a 2nd round+ QB turn into a franchise guy.  Gold agreed, and said if you think a guy has franchise upside, you take them in the first round.

 

Now, look at his grades above.  That means he doesn't really believe much in ANY of these guys, except Willis and RIdder to some extent.  

 

When asked what he thought the Commanders should have done instead of trading for Wentz, he said essentially, just wait.  See if Baker Baker the Touchdown Maker was going to come free, if somebody else (Ryan?) would have been willing to move, what they could do in the draft.

 

Well, so here's the conundrum:  If you sit back and wait, you might be in the situation of Carolina or the Seahawks, who might feel compelled to draft a guy who's not worthy of the pick at QB.

 

There was no way to know Baker was going to be available when the trade was made, because at that point, nobody even knew Cleveland was in the Watson sweepstakes.

 

There was no way to know Ryan was going to be available.  In fact, the Commanders called and asked if he was available, and were told no.  

 

This is another take which seems emotional vs. fact driven.  It's like presenting a problem and then having absolutely no solution to it.

 

They HAD to do something.  Rodgers/Wilson/Carr all were settled before the trade.  Trubisky/Mariota/Teddy all are reclamation projects, all with some upside but no certainty. And the draft is unimpressive.  I'm glad we're not dealing with the Watson situation.  And Baker and Ryan weren't available.

 

So, you have to get a guy.  They got a guy.  They can get out of it after a year if it's a debacle.  

 

I still don't understand why people hate on the trade as much as they continue to.  

Wild, Wentz has very little supporters. It almost seems like many anointed him the next best thing early on and are upset he didn’t make good on that proclamation, so now they must tear him down for being average (my own made up conclusion to support me supporting the Wentz lol). 
 

As I get older the more I feel the general consensus is wildly wrong relating to most everything, so let’s hope this is the case lol 

Edited April 22, 2022 by wit33

[Thinking Skins]

11 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I get that. And I’d be ok with that approach to an extent.  Id prefer to get a more talented young guy in to push TH, and give them options on 2023.  But I also see the point of just going full bore into this year with as many players who can contribute.  

 

However I definitely think Strong would be a good pick in the 5th.  Maybe you use the 4th for a depth prospect.  But if Strong is there in the 5th, I’d do it.  I don’t think he’ll be there, though.  

I get that but it all depends on your evaluation on Strong, both health wise and talent wise. I remember a guy in Denver who slipped to the 7th and became mr irrelevant because of character concerns. They were saying Denver could have a steal. They didn't. Same with Paxton Lynch and a bunch of others. I'm not saying we can't get value in a low round QB. As many on this site know, I'm probably the most Mr. Low Round QB  guy on this site. But I also believe in building a team. Cousins worked out for us because RG3 didn't but I would rather have drafted more guys to help with the defense because thats where we had been struggling and especially in hindsight. 

 

And then we go into the whole discussion about UDFAs vs low round guys vs high round guys. I think there's a lot f talent in the UDFAs but you've got to trust your scouts and trust that you can find diamonds where everybody else sees coal. I don't know if we have that particularly because we have drafted so few UDFAs under Ron. That said, Scott has found UDFA QBs in Allen and Taylor so I think he could do it again here. And that's all I want. I honestly trust him making the decision more than Hurney and Mayhew. 

[RWJ]

6 hours ago, Est.1974 said:

I’d like us to draft him, feels like we may not be positioned to get him. Or we may not have enough draft capital to take a QB as early as I’d like. 
 

He does seem like a very viable back up option to Wentz though.

If we really wanted him, they're two ways we could get him is, 1) in a trade down or 2) If we used a 2023 pick w/wo a pick this year. 

[Warhead36]

Its ok to not like Wentz the player. I don't really love him either. But he has some strengths we can utilize. And he's not TERRIBLE. Overall his year last year was pretty solid. And he is still one of the best deep ball passers in the league. He's a substantial upgrade over Heinicke.

 

The cost sucks. No doubt about it. But I'd rather pay a premium than be in the same boat teams like the Seahawks and Panthers are in. The QBs in this class all suck, not one will make it as a starter in this league. Not one. There is a reason why every team started scrambling for veteran QBs immediately after the combine.

[wit33]

12 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Its ok to not like Wentz the player. I don't really love him either. But he has some strengths we can utilize. And he's not TERRIBLE. Overall his year last year was pretty solid. And he is still one of the best deep ball passers in the league. He's a substantial upgrade over Heinicke.

 

The cost sucks. No doubt about it. But I'd rather pay a premium than be in the same boat teams like the Seahawks and Panthers are in. The QBs in this class all suck, not one will make it as a starter in this league. Not one. There is a reason why every team started scrambling for veteran QBs immediately after the combine.

It’s also the fact Washington has been in that Panther and Seattle position the last two seasons. The FO and coaches believe the roster is in place to compete for the playoffs, the time is now to crack the window open. The aligns with Ron’s timeline as well. 

[KDawg]

28 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Its ok to not like Wentz the player. I don't really love him either. But he has some strengths we can utilize. And he's not TERRIBLE. Overall his year last year was pretty solid. And he is still one of the best deep ball passers in the league. He's a substantial upgrade over Heinicke.

 

The cost sucks. No doubt about it. But I'd rather pay a premium than be in the same boat teams like the Seahawks and Panthers are in. The QBs in this class all suck, not one EXCEPT SAM THE DESTROYER HOWELL, will make it as a starter in this league. Not one. There is a reason why every team started scrambling for veteran QBs immediately after the combine.

 

Agreed. Esp. the bolded. Nice touch there, Warhead. The emphasis is strong. 

[CommanderInTheRye]

On 4/20/2022 at 4:38 AM, Vandelay_Industries said:

 

He got COVID in week 17, right before the last two crucial games against the Raiders and Jags. He was tested positive on Monday and already played against the Raiders on Saturday. It remains questionable how physically ready he actually was in these two games (especially since he was not vaccinated).

 

He had a foot surgery before the season and missed the whole preseason because of it. In week 2, he injured both ankles against the Rams, missing the last drive (which could have been a game winning drive as they were only down by -3). In the following game against the Titans he was questionable and eventually played, but was visibly very limited.

 

 

Love the screen name. I'm a big Seinfeld fan as are many others on the board.

 

As a relatively new poster I offer greetings and salutations.

 

As is my custom I double fis... er uhm I gave you an exuberant emoji as an informal welcome to the forum.

 

Happy postings!

 

 

Edited April 22, 2022 by CommanderInTheRye

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, wit33 said:

Wild, Wentz has very little supporters. It almost seems like many anointed him the next best thing early on and are upset he didn’t make good on that proclamation, so now they must tear him down for being average (my own made up conclusion to support me supporting the Wentz lol). 
 

As I get older the more I feel the general consensus is wildly wrong relating to most everything, so let’s hope this is the case lol 

Here's what I think:  I think if the roles had been reversed, and Wentz had gone from Philly to Washington, the owner had cut him and sent him packing, and then he was traded to Indy, Dan would have been crucified for meddling and throwing out a QB who had 27/7 TD/INT ratio, being impulsive, and making a decision based on personal reasons and one game. And nobody would want to hear anything he or anybody else had to say about the subject.  

 

And Indy would be seen as getting a starting QB for 2 middle round picks, and reasonable cap hits in the next few seasons. They would be lauded and the Commanders would be crushed.  

 

BUT.  That's not the way it went.  Washington has absolutely no benefit of the doubt.  Dan has an earned reputation of being a complete, total, absolute and utter fool when it comes to anything football related.

 

The Colts meanwhile, are still viewed as a "class" organization, basically a holdover from over a decade of Polian/Manning control, then more success under Luck.  Irsay, while he's an arrogant, impulsive, drug user and generally rotten person (by most accounts) is given more of a free pass because, well, since 1998 they've had a top 5 winning program in the NFL.  Mostly due to Polian/Manning/Luck.  But he was the owner so people don't beat on him as much.  

 

So when Irsay comes out and launches what was absolutely a smear/cover my ass campaign about Wentz, it's fully believed and embraced by the media. The Colts beat reporters, specifically those with the Athletic, seem like they are reading off of prepared remarks from the Colts official statements.  It's wild.  Ballard and Rech got on board to whatever extent they did because if they didn't they could both have been in trouble.  

 

I think everybody rationally knows at this point what Wentz is:  He's one of the 15 guys at any given time who deserves one of the 32 starting QB jobs in the NFL.  He's probably in the bottom 1/3 of that list, along with a guy like Cousins.  There are things he can do well, there are things he won't do well. He will have some ups, and some downs.

 

But he's a professional starting QB in the NFL.  

 

I think the media, partly because of the continued cycle of negativity which folks coving the team seem to want to perpetuate, just absolutely fell for the Colts propaganda campaign hook line and sinker.  

 

I have absolutely no idea whether Wentz is going to work out. He might, he might not.  But he is the best QB Ron has had on the roster since he's been here.  There can be no argument than he is better than:

 

Dwayne Haskins (RIP)

Kyle Allen

1-legged Alex Smith

Ryan Fitzpatrick

Taylor Heinecke

Stephen Montez

Whatever that guys name who started the COVID game for us last year.  Gilbert something or something Gilbert?

 

Wentz is better than all of them. And anybody who argues differently is trying to sell you something.  And you should not buy it.  Because it is probably poison and will kill you.

 

I really, really, really hope he works out because I want to blast with a bazooka in an amazingly arrogant way all of those numb-sculls who just ate Irsay's hooey up.  

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

The cost sucks. No doubt about it.

I'd argue 2 middle round picks for a starting QB isn't that bad, and $28M on the cap for a top half of the league QB isn't bad. He's a lot like Cousins and makes less than him.  And his cap numbers go down after this year.  

 

Shrug.  It cost something to get him. I would have preferred to pay less.  But I always prefer to pay less.  For everything.  So, eh, whatever.  

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, Thinking Skins said:

I get that but it all depends on your evaluation on Strong, both health wise and talent wise. I remember a guy in Denver who slipped to the 7th and became mr irrelevant because of character concerns. They were saying Denver could have a steal. They didn't. Same with Paxton Lynch and a bunch of others. I'm not saying we can't get value in a low round QB. As many on this site know, I'm probably the most Mr. Low Round QB  guy on this site. But I also believe in building a team. Cousins worked out for us because RG3 didn't but I would rather have drafted more guys to help with the defense because thats where we had been struggling and especially in hindsight. 

 

And then we go into the whole discussion about UDFAs vs low round guys vs high round guys. I think there's a lot f talent in the UDFAs but you've got to trust your scouts and trust that you can find diamonds where everybody else sees coal. I don't know if we have that particularly because we have drafted so few UDFAs under Ron. That said, Scott has found UDFA QBs in Allen and Taylor so I think he could do it again here. And that's all I want. I honestly trust him making the decision more than Hurney and Mayhew. 

The Cousins pick was FASCINATING the moment it was made.  But I think Mike knew he needed 2 QBs who could play, and I think he was absolutely done with watching Rex play in any scenario.  Do I think there was a "hedge your bets" thing going on?  Maybe a little.  But when you trade 2 future 1sts and a second for a guy, you are committed to try and make it work. So I think it was less for a hedge against Griffin and more of a hedge against Rex.  Was that the best strategic move?  Maybe not.  I didn't love it either, but I understood it.

 

The question you have to ask yourself, and you're right, it's all about evaluation, is Strong the 6th best QB in the draft, and what is his upside?  Is he a valuable backup for years who might develop into a ~15ish starter?  If you think yes, he's worth a 4th or 5th round pick.

 

While I like Kyle Allen an TH, neither of those guys have that upside.  They are valuable middle-of-the-pack backups, but there's no chance either can develop into anything more than that.  I'd argue it's really good to have one of those guys on your roster.  Which, amazingly, we do!  

 

However, I think looking for a guy who has more upside is also good.  You can find them every so often in the UDFA market.  But most of the time, you find them in the draft.  Also, with UDFAs, they have a choice of where to go, and the guy you want might have some reason to go elsewhere. More money, they like the area, whatever. 

 

I look at the draft in general as a complete an total crap shoot.  If you have 7 picks, and you get 2 starters and 2 contributors out of a draft, you've done extremely well.  The further down the draft you go, the less likely it is the player will be in the league in 2 years.  So, spending a 5th round pick on a developmental QB, eh, whatever, if you like him.  There's a 50% chance if you picked a random inside DL guy, he'll be out of the league before his first contract is up and never contribute.  So, shrug.  You might get nothing out of either.  

[Zim489]

2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I still don't understand why people hate on the trade as much as they continue to.  

You listed all the reasons why people hate the trade. They backed themselves into this spot with terrible foresight they had leading into this year. So they had to make it because no one was going to sign here. 

[Dark Acre]

14 hours ago, RWJ said:

I think Strong goes at the end of the 3rd, no later than the very early 4th.  JMO.  

In my PFF draft, he goes in the 4th.  ;->

If he's not there, Zappe in the 5th.

[Thinking Skins]

54 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

The question you have to ask yourself, and you're right, it's all about evaluation, is Strong the 6th best QB in the draft, and what is his upside?  Is he a valuable backup for years who might develop into a ~15ish starter?  If you think yes, he's worth a 4th or 5th round pick.

 

While I like Kyle Allen an TH, neither of those guys have that upside.  They are valuable middle-of-the-pack backups, but there's no chance either can develop into anything more than that.  I'd argue it's really good to have one of those guys on your roster.  Which, amazingly, we do!  

 

However, I think looking for a guy who has more upside is also good.  You can find them every so often in the UDFA market.  But most of the time, you find them in the draft.  Also, with UDFAs, they have a choice of where to go, and the guy you want might have some reason to go elsewhere. More money, they like the area, whatever. 

 

I look at the draft in general as a complete an total crap shoot.  If you have 7 picks, and you get 2 starters and 2 contributors out of a draft, you've done extremely well.  The further down the draft you go, the less likely it is the player will be in the league in 2 years.  So, spending a 5th round pick on a developmental QB, eh, whatever, if you like him.  There's a 50% chance if you picked a random inside DL guy, he'll be out of the league before his first contract is up and never contribute.  So, shrug.  You might get nothing out of either.  

Honestly, I think that beyond the first round QBs, you want somebody who won't poop their pants when they see live action - ala John Beck and Rex Grossman in different ways. That's the same thing that can be said with a number of other positions, but what you wind up asking yourself is "is the 3rd or 4th best guy from an SEC/Big10 team better than the top guy at at PAC12 or ACC or MEAC or whatever" And so often we see the little schools left out because they don't get the exposure of the bigger schools / conferences. Heck, look at this draft where people say we went to Cincinatti but was it to see a CB a WR or a QB? If we had scouts at Alabama A&M its to see Glass. , though it might shine some light on some other prospects too. 

[FootballZombie]

4 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I think everybody rationally knows at this point what Wentz is:  He's one of the 15 guys at any given time who deserves one of the 32 starting QB jobs in the NFL.  He's probably in the bottom 1/3 of that list, along with a guy like Cousins.  There are things he can do well, there are things he won't do well. He will have some ups, and some downs.

 

But he's a professional starting QB in the NFL.  

 

I don't think the vast majority of evaluators see Wentz in such a light, and certainly not on the level of established franchise guys. I have not seen a lot of guys put Wentz in that kind of space.

 

Cousins is a bonified franchise QB, one a team is willing to extend to ensure he remains w/ their franchise. He has thrown for 4K yds for 6 of the last 7 seasons. Even just last year, he stacked 50 yds a game on Wentz, threw more TDs with 33, the same Int #s with more attempts, and had a 66.3 comp % to Wentz 62.6. All this while shouldering a bigger responsibility and asked to do more due to the Colts rush heavy offense.

 

Cousins is both extended and expected to be the future moving forward. Wentz is being given an audition. These two are on different levels in terms of both status and production.

To be honest, outside of upside rookies who have not proven it yet, there isn't a franchise QB Wentz will compare favorably to, which is why those guys are franchise QBs.

 

Wentz is one of the best 32, so he is certainly a starter, but he is simply not a franchise QB at the moment, otherwise there would not be a trial period associated w/ him. This same kind of ranking was bestowed upon Wentz before the Commanders acquired him as well, so its not some new line of thinking.

 

 

Rank

20

Carson Wentz

Indianapolis Colts · Year 6

2021 stats: 17 games | 62.4 pct | 3,563 pass yds | 6.9 ypa | 27 pass TD | 7 INT | 215 rush yds | 1 rush TD | 8 fumbles

 

2020 final ranking: 35 | 2019: 10 | 2018: 14 | 2017: 3 | 2016: 25

 

Planted in an ideal situation behind a great offensive line with his dream play caller, Wentz was steady until he wasn't. He closed with three of his worst four games of the season, a primary reason the Colts stumbled out of the playoff field. With the season on the line after halftime in Jacksonville, Wentz short-circuited. The counting stats look solid, but Wentz suffers when you watch every snap. He finished 23rd in PFF's grading among qualifiers, and 26th in Next Gen Stats' completion percentage over expected. In short: Wentz doesn't compensate with enough wow plays for what he lacks in accuracy or decision making.

 

https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-qb-index-end-of-2021-nfl-season-rankings

 

Paroozing several Websites, Wentz seems to slot in in the 18-25(ESPN was brutal) range for most major sites based on lists constructed at the end of last season when he was still a Colt.

 

If you want to argue Wentz has the talent to be top 15, fine, but you can't come with a straight face and say Wentz is better "right now" than

 

1.) Mahomie

2.) Brady

3.) Rodgers

4.) Wilson

5.) Allen

6.) Stafford

7.) Cousins

8.) Murray

9.) Prescott

10.) Tanny

11.) Carr

12.) Watson

13.) Jackson

14.) Herbert

15.) Burrow

 

All of these guys either stacked multiple better seasons than Wentz or have been commited to by their teams, or are still on rookie deals but are believed to be great. None of these players are in auditions, they are expected to continue to be good. Wentz does not qualify for this metric, he is on none of these players tier. He is not a top 15 QB.

 

Wentz slots into the next group. He is alongside other QBs who have been rated average over the years like the Teddy Bs of the world and the guys who are still believed to have possible upside like Winston. Not quite good enough to be relied on as the future of a franchise, but good enough to bring in and give an opportunity w/ an audition.

 

Wentz was questioned as a QB before we acquired him, nothing has changed in regards to that. Its not like his stock took a nose dive when we picked him up. He is now what he already was. I have not seen anyone in the media realistically sell the idea that we have somehow severely downgraded at QB over what we have had, they just push the idea that we remain in QB purgatory, and since we overpaid for the right to do so we could have been better off going in other directions.

Edited April 22, 2022 by FootballZombie

[Voice_of_Reason]

@FootballZombie he’s literally top 10 in every single metric for a QB just about every season.  Of the list of 15 you put up there, he has a QBR better than 6 of them, because he was 9th last season.  
 

By any metric, he’s a top half of the league starter.  
 

He’s a starting QB in the NFL.  Just about everybody agrees with that.  He’s not a backup.  At least not yet.  
 

I thought the Long interview summed it up very well.  
 

And take PFF grades with a grain of salt.  
 

Anybody who says Wentz isn’t a legitimate NFL starter has no earthly idea what the hell they’re talking about. 
 

Im not suggesting he’s elite.  But the hate the guy gets for absolutely no reason is remarkable. 
 

If the entire Colts team doesn’t suck an egg against Jax (and he was part of that, but so was literally the entire rest of the team) the Colts make the playoffs, Irsay holds his water, Carson is viewed as a 10-12 QB by literally everybody due to statistics and eye test from last year.  
 

They all choked at the end of the year, from the coach down, and here we are.  

[FootballZombie]

1 minute ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

@FootballZombie he’s literally top 10 in every single metric for a QB just about every season.  Of the list of 15 you put up there, he has a QBR better than 6 of them, because he was 9th last season.  

 

QBR does not reflect a lot of things, like how other QBs were bigger foundation pieces of their offenses, or didn't get to play against Ds that had to constantly account for a beastly rushing attack.

 

Outside of Watson (who is unlisted but is y-know D. Watson) I have difficulty finding reputable sites listing Wentz over any of the 15 QBs I listed for 2021 rankings

 

Wentz-19th https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-qb-index-ranking-all-62-starting-qbs-of-the-2021-nfl-season

Wentz-20th https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-qb-index-end-of-2021-nfl-season-rankings

Wentz-25th https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/32071373/nfl-quarterback-rankings-2021-how-all-32-teams-qbs-stack-weekly-big-takeaways

Wentz-18th https://www.profootballnetwork.com/qb-power-rankings-2021/2/

Wentz-22nd https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-final-2021-quarterback-rankings

Wentz-19th https://247sports.com/LongFormArticle/NFL-QB-rankings-2021-NFLcoms-top-32-starters-183346935/#183346935_3

Wentz-29th https://www.si.com/nfl/draft/nfl/nfl-ranking-the-top-50-quarterbacks-for-2022#gid=ci0299d2caa000270f&pid=jalen-hurts

 

All of these lists were constructed when Wentz was still a member of the Colts.

Virtually nobody outside this board rates Wentz as highly as you do, and that was before we acquired him.

 

While no one persons' opinion overseeds another, I think its safe to say that there is a general pattern formed on Wentz ranking in the league after the 2021 season, and it is not one of a top 15 QB, or even very close to it for that matter.

 

No major site/org gave into the idea that he was a top15 QB after the season wrapped and before this trade occurred. It is not surprising that they continue that line of thinking afterward.

 

 

 

 

26 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Anybody who says Wentz isn’t a legitimate NFL starter has no earthly idea what the hell they’re talking about. 

 

I have not seen this narrative outside a few people on this board.

 

I've seen people say they would take a non-starter quality lesser QB + the assets given up for Wentz, but that is different.

 

I have not seen anyone in the media stan that Wentz is not a starting QB. Every list I can find has him in the top 32.

[Thinking Skins]

The thing Wentz is getting criticized for is exactly what we criticized Cousins for and what Dallas is criticizing Prescott for. Game closing ability is something you can't test at a combine. You've got to give them the ball with the game on the line and see what happens. 

 

I'm not in love with Wentz but come on. Cousins got his coach fired. If the coach stays, he doesn't get extended. Sure Stafford won a ring but this was a constant thing with him too. Can he win in the last 2 minutes. This is a question for every QB who's putting up numbers. Can they do it when it counts more? Same for Wentz. 

[goskins10]

18 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

The thing Wentz is getting criticized for is exactly what we criticized Cousins for and what Dallas is criticizing Prescott for. Game closing ability is something you can't test at a combine. You've got to give them the ball with the game on the line and see what happens. 

 

I'm not in love with Wentz but come on. Cousins got his coach fired. If the coach stays, he doesn't get extended. Sure Stafford won a ring but this was a constant thing with him too. Can he win in the last 2 minutes. This is a question for every QB who's putting up numbers. Can they do it when it counts more? Same for Wentz. 

 

I don't totally disagree but I would like clarification to the bolded. Stafford is one of the best in 4th Q comebacks both in number and % opportunity. I have posted those statistics many time. The complaints about Stafford was can he play well in the POs. 

 

I agree about Wentz. He so far has struggled when the game is important and he has brain fades in other games from time to time. But in fairness he has not had many tools. time will tell what Ron gives him. We already have at least as good if not better tools than PH or the Colts with the opportunity to make it better. I hope he does well if only because it's the best outcome for the team.  

[Thinking Skins]

4 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

I don't totally disagree but I would like clarification to the bolded. Stafford is one of the best in 4th Q comebacks both in number and % opportunity. I have posted those statistics many time. The complaints about Stafford was can he play well in the POs. 

 

I agree about Wentz. He so far has struggled when the game is important and he has brain fades in other games from time to time. But in fairness he has not had many tools. time will tell what Ron gives him. We already have at least as good if not better tools than PH or the Colts with the opportunity to make it better. I hope he does well if only because it's the best outcome for the team.  

I don't doubt you did this so I take it back if I'm wrong. I just remember the discussion when he was a Lion and him and Cousins supposedly being on the same level. I don't think I really cared so I can't recall being in those. But I was never impressed with him. Still am not