The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[FootballZombie]

17 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

I'm not in love with Wentz but come on. Cousins got his coach fired.

 

Doug Penderson says hi

 

17 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

The thing Wentz is getting criticized for is exactly what we criticized Cousins for and what Dallas is criticizing Prescott for.

 

Every QB gets ultra criticized in crunch time. But just b/c a group of dudes have a history of failing does not mean they are of the same tier in quality. Dak and Cousins offer far more beyond Wentz at this stage. 

 

Of the sites where I posted Wentz rankings

 

Cousins: 13th, 13th, 13th, 11th, 8th, 13th, 16th

Dak: 9th, 9th, 7th, 7th, 7th , 9th, 9th

 

That's an average ranking of 8.1(Dak), 12.4(Cousins) vs 21.7(Wentz). Those rankings are generated from far more than just poor closing numbers

 

 

Wentz general play must improve, not just his endgame. The idea that he is anywhere near comparable to these guys would get somebody thrown in Arkham anywhere outside this board.

 

 

[Thinking Skins]

22 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

Doug Penderson says hi

That was... Interesting... Because they supposedly wanted to keep both then neither. I haven't heard of animosity between them. Initially reports were that they wanted to keep Wentz and Peterson but then something about power of a coach gets Peterson fired and then new guy chooses Three young guy.

 

I'll give you if you want to say that's on Wentz but I think it's more complicated than cousins and Zimmer. Heck even Frank Reich wanted Wentz in Indy from Philly. 

 

[Ball Security]

1 hour ago, FootballZombie said:

 

Doug Penderson says hi

 

 

Every QB gets ultra criticized in crunch time. But just b/c a group of dudes have a history of failing does not mean they are of the same tier in quality. Dak and Cousins offer far more beyond Wentz at this stage. 

 

Of the sites where I posted Wentz rankings

 

Cousins: 13th, 13th, 13th, 11th, 8th, 13th, 16th

Dak: 9th, 9th, 7th, 7th, 7th , 9th, 9th

 

That's an average ranking of 8.1(Dak), 12.4(Cousins) vs 21.7(Wentz). Those rankings are generated from far more than just poor closing numbers

 

 

Wentz general play must improve, not just his endgame. The idea that he is anywhere near comparable to these guys would get somebody thrown in Arkham anywhere outside this board.

 

 

Everybody is entitled to their opinion, but I’m not going to take a list that has Jimmy G and Baker Mayfield as better than Derek Carr seriously.

 

Also, the ESPN list that you posted had him at 25.  But it also shows the previous week’s ranking.  He was 13. 

Edited April 23, 2022 by Ball Security

[FootballZombie]

5 minutes ago, Ball Security said:

Everybody is entitled to their opinion, but I’m not going to take a list that has Jimmy G and Baker Mayfield as better than Derek Carr seriously.

 

Which is why I posted 7 lists. Every individual list has an oddity somewhere.

 

But based on average, its easy to see Carr's ranking blows both Baker and Jimmy's avg placement out of the water. It is safe to say he is viewed as a much better QB. He is even top 10 on a few of them.

 

One list is just a guys opinion, but when you have information from several major outlets, you get a much clearer picture on how a player is perceived.

[kingdaddy]

1 hour ago, Thinking Skins said:

That was... Interesting... Because they supposedly wanted to keep both then neither. I haven't heard of animosity between them. Initially reports were that they wanted to keep Wentz and Peterson but then something about power of a coach gets Peterson fired and then new guy chooses Three young guy.

 

I'll give you if you want to say that's on Wentz but I think it's more complicated than cousins and Zimmer. Heck even Frank Reich wanted Wentz in Indy from Philly. 

 

What we have in Wentz is a complete grab bag, just like on the Price Is Right when they reach into the bag and try to pull out a winning number. Wentz has been all over the place both on and off the field when you consider his overall career to this point. We need to hope that he completely invests in himself and his NFL future and buys into what our coaches do with him because he is running out of chances to make a great NFL career out of his talent. 

I am hopeful that he can be great but am skeptical that he'll be as good as we need him to be. I really hope RR can get the best out of Carson Wentz but it's gonna be up to Wentz and how great he wants to be. 

[Zim489]

https://www.hogshaven.com/2022/4/23/23038262/its-not-working-commanders-fans-dont-believe-in-the-direction-of-the-team

[Redskins 2021]

55 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

https://www.hogshaven.com/2022/4/23/23038262/its-not-working-commanders-fans-dont-believe-in-the-direction-of-the-team

 This is a big year for us. Rivera and Front office are betting big on Wentz. I am willing to beleave them because if it goes poorly they will all probably be out of jobs. Needs to be a ten win season this year.

Edited April 23, 2022 by Redskins 2021

[RWJ]

25 minutes ago, Redskins 2021 said:

 This is a big year for us. Rivera and Front office are betting big on Wentz. I am willing to beleave them because if it goes poorly they will all probably be out of jobs. Needs to be a ten win season this year.

I think we get to the playoffs on a WC.  Not bad but think we need to draft rook this year with enough arm to get the ball down field to our WRs lke Wentz can.  Who that will be is yet to be seen. I think Coan or Zappe have enough of an arm to accomplish this being drafted in the 6th/7th rounds.

[Ball Security]

1 hour ago, Zim489 said:

https://www.hogshaven.com/2022/4/23/23038262/its-not-working-commanders-fans-dont-believe-in-the-direction-of-the-team

Is this the weakest of Rivera’s rosters?  Some names with money are gone, but they miss so much time.  63 out 99 games for Scherff, Collins, and Ioannidis.    One can make a case that Wentz isn’t top 16, but he’s much better than what Ron has had to work with.  They also have two top 50 picks and late stage FA to round out the roster.  Rivera failed to get Stafford and Wilson as much as he failed on getting Mahomes and Burrow.  Those guys weren’t coming here.  
 

The staff has to produce this year, and unfortunately, it’ll shape how they approach the draft.  

[Est.1974]

34 minutes ago, RWJ said:

I think we get to the playoffs on a WC.  Not bad but think we need to draft rook this year with enough arm to get the ball down field to our WRs lke Wentz can.  Who that will be is yet to be seen. I think Coan or Zappe have enough of an arm to accomplish this being drafted in the 6th/7th rounds.

Wentz is going to be here for the foreseeable future. Trade back in the first, draft Strong to back him up. I’d even consider Ridder if we had more picks. You need 2 QBs or the rest is toast.

[RWJ]

38 minutes ago, Est.1974 said:

Wentz is going to be here for the foreseeable future. Trade back in the first, draft Strong to back him up. I’d even consider Ridder if we had more picks. You need 2 QBs or the rest is toast.

Strong is a possibility.  Workouts may seem like nothing, but they have merit.  Strong and Turner were privately worked out along with a couple of other players.  An arm like Strong's doesn't come along that often.  I think they make a play for him as well.  

[Voice_of_Reason]

8 hours ago, Zim489 said:

https://www.hogshaven.com/2022/4/23/23038262/its-not-working-commanders-fans-dont-believe-in-the-direction-of-the-team

This feels like one fans opinion, and it’s author is a guy named “Bill in Bankok.”

 

Maybe he’s actually a plugged in media member, I’ve never heard of him before., and maybe that’s just my ignorance.

 

I don’t question the cycle of negativity surrounding this team is like a whirlpool, and sucks everybody down.  
 

But to think Ron, after taking over after 10 years of Bruce, was going to have a real contender after a year or two was foolish.   
 

They tried last season to get Stafford, but there was no way they could have matches the Ram’s offer.  
 

The only move they could have made but didn’t was trading up to get fields. Maybe they should have.  But it would have cost at least 2 additional picks in the 2021 draft and this years first, and maybe even picks in the 2023 draft . That’s a lot.  Moving up from 19 to 8 is a massive move.  And frankly I’m not sure Fields was a good enough prospect for all that.  
 

Would a trade up to get Jones solved anything? I think there would have been significant criticism of that move.  Trading up for a very average prospect.

 

The big miss so far from a personnel perspective has been Jamin Davis.  That’s the one personnel move which has been a real failure. if you want to throw WJIII in as well, I’d give that too you. 
 

Samuel was kindof bad luck because he didn’t have an injury history, and then got hurt immediately.

 

Fitz was also bad luck.  He was mostly durable, and then had a hip injury.  
 

Otherwise they’ve done well at building the roster to be competitive.  They played all but 16 snaps last year with a backup QB.  The fact they weren’t 3-14 is actually somewhat remarkable.  
 

I know you’re down on Rivera. I’m not sure who’s going to be better.  All this noise of “if Wentz doesn’t work out, Ron’s got to go snd get a new group in here” basically means you’re putting Dan back in play to find a new coach/GM.  I personally don’t want Dan doing anything.

 

I think Ron has just about all the time he needs.  If Wentz doesn’t work out, I think he’s going to get another chance to draft a guy.  

Edited April 24, 2022 by Voice_of_Reason

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

10 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

know you’re down on Rivera. I’m not sure who’s going to be better.  All this noise of “if Wentz doesn’t work out, Ron’s got to go snd get a new group in here” basically means you’re putting Dan back in play to find a new coach/GM.  I personally don’t want Dan doing anything.

Quoted, for the people in the back.

 

Some of our fans look at things as if we’re among the haves, rather than the have nots.  What I mean by this is, I would understand being down on the direction of the franchise if we we’d been among the upper half of the league the past few decades.  If we were accustomed to having decent ownership, solid QB play, winning seasons, etc. - sure, giving up assets for Wentz looks worse from that view.  Sure, there are younger, brighter minds than Ron Rivera.  Sure, there are better structures with bright GM’s who hire a coach to work on a shared vision.

 

I don’t think anybody is arguing against any of that.  None of us are thinking that Wentz is guaranteed to resurrect his career and take us to the promise land.  None of us think Ron is Bill Belichik.  None of us believe the way this org is setup is optimal.  
 

It’s all about perspective.  If you’re living this pipe dream where Dan’s going to for once get really lucky and hire a hot shot GM, who then hires a genius head coach, who together will draft an elite QB, and build an upper echelon roster around said QB- more power to you.  But I’ll continue living in reality and accept having a competent and classy guy in charge, a QB that can actually sling it a bit, and simply hope for the best.  It’s much better than what we’ve been accustomed to.  

Edited April 24, 2022 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[Califan007 The Constipated]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Dan’s going to for once get really lucky and hire a hot shot GM, who then hires a genius head coach, who together will draft an elite QB, and build an upper echelon roster around said QB...

 

 

Me when I've had a few:

 

[Burgold]

The most interesting question to me is how much better are we just by swapping out QBs. How much better is McClaurin, Brown, McKissic, and Simms. If they recover from injury how much more dynamic are Samuels and Thomas? Does the QB effect suddenly mean bigger holes for Gibson to exploit for big gainers?

 

For parts of the season, I think Heinike overachieved and was really pretty good. His play saved the season before it and he fell apart. Even so, there were things he couldn't do and the receivers and playbook suffered because of that. Is Wentz a step up? Two steps up? How much better is everyone just because Wentz is our QB? Conversely, how long will it be until we know if Wentz is the right fit or if we miss Heinike?

[Warhead36]

1 hour ago, Burgold said:

The most interesting question to me is how much better are we just by swapping out QBs. How much better is McClaurin, Brown, McKissic, and Simms. If they recover from injury how much more dynamic are Samuels and Thomas? Does the QB effect suddenly mean bigger holes for Gibson to exploit for big gainers?

 

For parts of the season, I think Heinike overachieved and was really pretty good. His play saved the season before it and he fell apart. Even so, there were things he couldn't do and the receivers and playbook suffered because of that. Is Wentz a step up? Two steps up? How much better is everyone just because Wentz is our QB? Conversely, how long will it be until we know if Wentz is the right fit or if we miss Heinike?

Wentz has one of the best arms in the league and even with his flaws was among the best deep ball passers in the league last year, and that was with a pretty subpar WR corps. I expect McLaurin to have a big year and Brown should take a step up as well since he's also a deep threat guy. Thomas should also produce since Wentz always does well with TEs. I do think McKissic's #s will drop though as Wentz isn't much of a checkdown guy to begin with and I expect Turner to call more downfield stuff. 

[88Comrade2000]

I don't trust Ron and his gm crew one bit; if they have to draft a qb in 23.  I also don't expect us to be in position to draft one of the top 23 QBs.

 

Ron is out of sync with modern football and eventually that will bite him in the ass.

 

When Dan finally puts Ron out of his misery; he needs go to offense again.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

22 minutes ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

I don't trust Ron and his gm crew one bit; if they have to draft a qb in 23.  I also don't expect us to be in position to draft one of the top 23 QBs.

 

Ron is out of sync with modern football and eventually that will bite him in the ass.

 

When Dan finally puts Ron out of his misery; he needs go to offense again.

What aspects of modern football is Rivera out-of-sync with in your opinion?

[Koolblue13]

Thank freaking god we got Wentz. If he stinks it up for some weird reason and we have to walk, that's totally fine, cause it's a good QB draft and we cut the contract and walk. It's no risk and a cheap deal for a QB who was a former MVP candidate. 

 

The Panther are looking at Jimmy and Baker and the draft. The draft sucks for QB and imagine being at 6 and having to be concerned about possibly moving Up?   That really sucks.

 

We don't have Goff or Minshew, we have a legit QB who is generally in the top 10 this year. That's awesome. Thank god.

[Zim489]

20 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

But to think Ron, after taking over after 10 years of Bruce, was going to have a real contender after a year or two was foolish.

I dont think anyone is expecting us to be a real contender but on the field it doesnt feel like were any closer to making a major stab a SB than it was prior to Ron.

 

Like I just want them to make the right logical moves that are in line with the modern football to win SBs but they are doing the opposite of that.  

Edited April 24, 2022 by Zim489

[Tress Is The Way]

On 4/23/2022 at 10:25 PM, Voice_of_Reason said:

This feels like one fans opinion, and it’s author is a guy named “Bill in Bankok.”

 

Maybe he’s actually a plugged in media member, I’ve never heard of him before., and maybe that’s just my ignorance.

 

I don’t question the cycle of negativity surrounding this team is like a whirlpool, and sucks everybody down.  
 

But to think Ron, after taking over after 10 years of Bruce, was going to have a real contender after a year or two was foolish.   
 

They tried last season to get Stafford, but there was no way they could have matches the Ram’s offer.  
 

The only move they could have made but didn’t was trading up to get fields. Maybe they should have.  But it would have cost at least 2 additional picks in the 2021 draft and this years first, and maybe even picks in the 2023 draft . That’s a lot.  Moving up from 19 to 8 is a massive move.  And frankly I’m not sure Fields was a good enough prospect for all that.  
 

Would a trade up to get Jones solved anything? I think there would have been significant criticism of that move.  Trading up for a very average prospect.

 

The big miss so far from a personnel perspective has been Jamin Davis.  That’s the one personnel move which has been a real failure. if you want to throw WJIII in as well, I’d give that too you. 
 

Samuel was kindof bad luck because he didn’t have an injury history, and then got hurt immediately.

 

Fitz was also bad luck.  He was mostly durable, and then had a hip injury.  
 

Otherwise they’ve done well at building the roster to be competitive.  They played all but 16 snaps last year with a backup QB.  The fact they weren’t 3-14 is actually somewhat remarkable.  
 

I know you’re down on Rivera. I’m not sure who’s going to be better.  All this noise of “if Wentz doesn’t work out, Ron’s got to go snd get a new group in here” basically means you’re putting Dan back in play to find a new coach/GM.  I personally don’t want Dan doing anything.

 

I think Ron has just about all the time he needs.  If Wentz doesn’t work out, I think he’s going to get another chance to draft a guy.  

I'm glad they never traded for Fields.. dude didn't do much for the bears this past season. This board would be up in flames if we did.

 

A two and eight record, 58.9 completion percentage, 7 to 10 TD:INT ratio, and 12 fumbles? No thank you.

Edited April 25, 2022 by ZarG3

[Warhead36]

43 minutes ago, ZarG3 said:

I'm glad they never traded for Fields.. dude didn't do much for the bears this past season. This board would be up in flames if we did.

 

A two and eight record, 58.9 completion percentage, 7 to 10 TD:INT ratio, and 12 fumbles? No thank you.

Yeah he was legitimately worse than Heinicke. No doubt he has way more upside, but this fan base would be trashing Fields right now if he were our QB AND we didn't have the #11 pick.

[88Comrade2000]

21 hours ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

What aspects of modern football is Rivera out-of-sync with in your opinion?

He's too defensive focused.  He's stuck in and old era of building a team. 

[NickyJ]

1 hour ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

He's too defensive focused.  He's stuck in and old era of building a team. 

You think Ron is out of sync with modern football because he used to be a defensive coordinator at some point in his career and recently got hired by a morally and athletically bankrupt team that, shockingly, was bankrupt of talent on offense but had a kind of okay defense.

 

Did I get that right?

[Warhead36]

1 hour ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

He's too defensive focused.  He's stuck in and old era of building a team. 

I'm not sure I buy that. He's made big time attempts to fix the offense. Offered big money to Amari Cooper. Paid big money(relatively) to Curtis Samuel. Made legitimate offers for Matt Stafford last year and Russel Wilson this year. Gave up pretty much all of our cap flexibility for this year for Carson Wentz.

 

Reg. the draft, yeah we've gone defense the first two years, but Chase Young in 2020 was a slam dunk. NOONE at the time was advocating for Justin Herbert and Tua has stunk so far. And in the 3rd we drafted Antonio Gibson who's been, at the very least, worthy of a 3rd round pick(more than worthy really).

 

The only real argument you have is Jamin Davis at 19 overall last year, but even then with our other mid round picks we took a highly rated OT in Sam Cosmi(who had a good rookie year)and a promising speedy WR who most people thought was a steal at the time and could still develop in Dyami Brown. Also drafted John Bates who looked good for a late round rookie.

 

And based on pre draft visits and reports, we seem to be very focused on adding more to the offense. The #11 pick will likely  be used on WR.

 

Every move Rivera has made or tried to make has suggested he knows the offense is in need of big help.

Edited April 25, 2022 by Warhead36