The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Conn]

14 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

I like how you just pull arbitrary numbers out of your ass, I mean thin air, to give your point more validity. There isn't one single backup QB in the league who can do houdini acts and side arm Bates on 4th and 1 to move the chains and win against Brady led Tampa team. 

Not one? That’s a little confident. I could see Minshew doing that, just to name one. Similar moxy-fueled reputation with fans but also limited. Just as an example.

 

It was a really cool fun moment, and Heinicke had some other ones too. But in terms of his overall performance leading to our 7-10 record this past season? Yeah a lot of backups could produce similar results over a full season even if the specifics looked different, imo. There were some magic Houdini moments like you describe, there were also lots of let downs and horrible throws. There’s nothing special, on a macro level, about what he did this year. What makes it really really cool and impressive IN CONTEXT (that’s important) is the way it plays into the narrative of his career—from the couch to starting QB?? That’s sweet, it’s a nice story. It’s not special in terms of the results though. 

[zCommander]

20 minutes ago, Conn said:

Not one? That’s a little confident. I could see Minshew doing that, just to name one. Similar moxy-fueled reputation with fans but also limited. Just as an example.

 

It was a really cool fun moment, and Heinicke had some other ones too. But in terms of his overall performance leading to our 7-10 record this past season? Yeah a lot of backups could produce similar results over a full season even if the specifics looked different, imo. There were some magic Houdini moments like you describe, there were also lots of let downs and horrible throws. There’s nothing special, on a macro level, about what he did this year. What makes it really really cool and impressive IN CONTEXT (that’s important) is the way it plays into the narrative of his career—from the couch to starting QB?? That’s sweet, it’s a nice story. It’s not special in terms of the results though. 

 

Not sure if Minshew is a good example. He was 6-6 in 2019, 1-7 in 2020 and 1-1 in 2021. Not a very impressive resume for someone who was actually drafted and is only 25 years old. Taylor coming off the couch has been more impressive than these backup QBs. You have to take that into consideration when making a comparison. 

[mistertim]

Can we please just cut Heinicke so @zCommandercan find a new and more healthy hobby?

[zCommander]

2 minutes ago, mistertim said:

Can we please just cut Heinicke so @zCommandercan find a new and more healthy hobby?

 

I am watching hockey, Netflix and working on some servers updates. I think I am good for now. 

 

[88Comrade2000]

1 hour ago, SoCalSkins said:

Commander Wentz is leading us to a Super Bowl  win this year. I am semi kidding but I am betting big on NFC east championship and NFC championship as insurance to pay for my travel and tickets. I am so in. Last time I was this all in was 2001. I had dream seats at FedEx behind the opposing team bench and I bought all 8 road games. Traveling from LA to each game. We started 0-5 with September 11 taking place. I ended up going to like 12 games instead of all 16. We did end up 8-8 with Marty.
 

But for some crazy reason I am super pumped up for this year.  I honestly think we will win the super bowl. 

I disagree.

 

That’s too much expect this year.

 

Best case a wild card appearance and maybe our first playoff win since 2005.

 

Odds are this doesn’t work.

 

If we go to SuperBowl under Wentz; it isn’t happening until 3-4 years down the road.

 

Players who end on multiple teams in a short time span; don’t usually end up being successful.

 

It’s going take me 2 years before I believe Wentz is the one.

 

We’ll just have to wait and see. We are the Dan Snyder Commanders and things usually don’t work out for us.

 

 

Now that Tampa and LA wins a SuperBowl in the first year with a new QB; everyone expects the same thing.

 

This team is probably 3 years away. There’s a lot that both sides of the ball have to prove; before they go on a run.

 

We still have big holes and that won’t all be solved in 2022. We need the defense to play solid the entire year and then do that again on a tougher schedule in 23. Pass all that; then we can make a run in 24; Ron’s 5th year. That’s how long it took him in Carolina to make a run.

Edited March 12, 2022 by 88Comrade2000

[MAATopDogg]

In addition to restructuring player contracts the FO can create immediate cap space at the push of a button by moving half of Wentz’s salary (the non Guaranteed part) to 2023. That should have been part of the trade initially  where in addition to giving up 3rd round picks and swapping 2nds have Indy absorb part of Wentz salary. Besides that I’m happy with the trade.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I mean, you can argue against historical facts all you want.  That’s what happened.  It’s not an opinion. It’s all documented.

 

As far as other backups doing what TH did, sure it’s an opinion.  But given his level of play by any measurable standard, it wasn’t good.  So, shrug.  I’d say half the backup QBs could play as well as TH did.  The other half couldn’t.  

 

 

 

 

You are spot-on correct about all those points concerning Shanahan, RG3, and Cousins.

 

Gotta disagree with the "any backup QB in the league could have done what Heinicke did" stance, though. Or even half the backups.

 

Over the last 4 seasons we've had nothing but backup-QBs starting for us--Keenum, McCoy, Haskins, Allen, Gilbert, Sanchez, Johnson. All of them combined couldn't match the number of wins Heinicke did in 15 starts. So we really can't apply that logic with any conviction. We've trotted out 7 backups over the last several seasons who managed 6 wins in like 33 starts. Heinicke got 7 wins in 15 starts. And in those early wins last year he was a major reason for them--that defense early on was not bailing him out. Over the last two years the offense has scored 27 or more points only 5 times when anyone other than Alex Smith played. Heinicke had 4 of those 5 games, all wins.

 

Whatever Heinicke brought to the team and field were absolutely beneficial and helped lead to wins. And from the evidence we have,  those things were not something that half the backups in the league possess...because it obviously wasn't arm strength leading to those wins lol. But whatever those attributes are, they were absolutely needed, at least on this team.

[CommanderInTheRye]

4 hours ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

 

You are spot-on correct about all those points concerning Shanahan, RG3, and Cousins.

 

Gotta disagree with the "any backup QB in the league could have done what Heinicke did" stance, though. Or even half the backups.

 

Over the last 4 seasons we've had nothing but backup-QBs starting for us--Keenum, McCoy, Haskins, Allen, Gilbert, Sanchez, Johnson. All of them combined couldn't match the number of wins Heinicke did in 15 starts. So we really can't apply that logic with any conviction. We've trotted out 7 backups over the last several seasons who managed 6 wins in like 33 starts. Heinicke got 7 wins in 15 starts. And in those early wins last year he was a major reason for them--that defense early on was not bailing him out. Over the last two years the offense has scored 27 or more points only 5 times when anyone other than Alex Smith played. Heinicke had 4 of those 5 games, all wins.

 

Whatever Heinicke brought to the team and field were absolutely beneficial and helped lead to wins. And from the evidence we have,  those things were not something that half the backups in the league possess...because it obviously wasn't arm strength leading to those wins lol. But whatever those attributes are, they were absolutely needed, at least on this team.

 

 

Yes!

 

We don’t have to hate Heinicke to accept the fact that he’s just not a starting qb for a  team with serious playoff aspirations. But that also doesn’t make him a scrub.

 

He's a significantly better than average backup that can hold the fort for 3 or 4 games but if asked to do more than that his physical limitations make him a liability. Heinicke is a valuable asset if used properly.

[cakmoney61]

11 hours ago, KillBill26 said:

Houston would rather have Davis mills at less than a mil, and under control for 3 more years, than Wentz at 28 mil per.  The only way we would get Watson is if we overwhelmed Houston with a trade package that Wentz isn't a part of, and then turn around and cut Wentz or trade him for peanuts.  Essentially flushing those 3rds down the toilet.  And odds of that happening are the same as me playing qb for the skins next year.

Hey, KillBill26, don't sell yourself short.  It has been drummed into our heads that you just have to believe in yourself.  If Wentz doesn't pan out, we will need you next year.  So you have to start getting ready by believing in yourself right now.  Don't worry about running, stretching, eating right, and nonsense such as getting into "football shape" whatever that means. 

 

The only imperative is that you believe in yourself starting right now "Commander QB KillBill26!"👍

[Darrell Green Fan]

13 hours ago, Darth Tater said:

Carson regressing to his status quo is still better than anything we've had at QB since Kirk Cousins.

 

Carson's biggest problem is a tendency to play hero-ball at the wrong time. Given that we have Terry and guys that are used to winning contested passes and an oline that is pretty good, him playing hero-ball may not be that much of an issue. Especially if we resign McKissic or find a quality replacement for him.

 

This is how I see Wentz. He will appear to be playing well, that will be the case because he is far better then any QB we have seen around here in a long time. But Wentz is another Kirk Cousins, he will melt at the biggest moments.  

[KillBill26]

1 hour ago, cakmoney61 said:

Hey, KillBill26, don't sell yourself short.  It has been drummed into our heads that you just have to believe in yourself.  If Wentz doesn't pan out, we will need you next year.  So you have to start getting ready by believing in yourself right now.  Don't worry about running, stretching, eating right, and nonsense such as getting into "football shape" whatever that means. 

 

The only imperative is that you believe in yourself starting right now "Commander QB KillBill26!"👍

I'm going to try the Jared Lorenzen approach and see how that works out.

[HigSkin]

I haven't seen this posted anywhere but catching up on some podcasts and Cooley on with Kevin Sheehan with full disclosure he hasn't watched a lot of Wentz's tape but loved him in Philly.  Dare I say he compares him to a supersized Taylor Heinicke with respect to his play (can be reckless, mobility) but with superior physical talent. 

 

They got to talking about the leadership stuff and Cooley recalled guys on his teams where the only QB that had those qualities was Brunell, maybe Grossman.  He didn't recall RGIII having much but he wasn't on the field with him a lot.  Cooley said the leadership can come from different players, like being in the huddle and a player saying to him, really need you to make this play.  Also said nobody gives a crap about leadership if you're winning.  It's the losses that can cause trouble with any team.

 

Cooley did give his opinion on the Eagles situation of drafting Hurts and statue of Foles at their complex.  He kind of felt it would bug him too if that happened to him wouldn't ding him for that.

 

 

[Koolblue13]

I'm with SoCal. I think we've got a solid path to the championship game if everything bounces our way. NFC doesn't have 7 solid playoff front runners and with our schedule, Heinicke could get us a winning record. 

 

Cards, eagles, pack, Rams, Cowboys, rams, 9ers I guess. They all have questions. 

 

This could very well be a championship season for us.

[zCommander]

9 hours ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

I disagree.

 

That’s too much expect this year.

 

Best case a wild card appearance and maybe our first playoff win since 2005.

 

Odds are this doesn’t work.

 

If we go to SuperBowl under Wentz; it isn’t happening until 3-4 years down the road.

 

Players who end on multiple teams in a short time span; don’t usually end up being successful.

 

It’s going take me 2 years before I believe Wentz is the one.

 

We’ll just have to wait and see. We are the Dan Snyder Commanders and things usually don’t work out for us.

 

 

Now that Tampa and LA wins a SuperBowl in the first year with a new QB; everyone expects the same thing.

 

This team is probably 3 years away. There’s a lot that both sides of the ball have to prove; before they go on a run.

 

We still have big holes and that won’t all be solved in 2022. We need the defense to play solid the entire year and then do that again on a tougher schedule in 23. Pass all that; then we can make a run in 24; Ron’s 5th year. That’s how long it took him in Carolina to make a run.

 

I think Brady is a bad example. Everyone knew he was going to win a SB as soon as he went to Tampa. I mean he is Brady after all who had 6 SB wins under his belt.

 

Now, Stafford is another story. He couldn't do it in Detroit but he goes to LA with a loaded team that McVey setup for him they won the SB. Well they almost lost the SB too so it was not like Stafford was lights out. He made plays when it mattered the most at the end. 

 

How would you compare Wentz with Stafford?

 

Other thought is that if Wentz is a better version of Heinickie than that means 14 wins. The holes can be solved this year, at least where we need the most help in. This will get you into the playoffs and make some noise and even go the the SB. It is still possible with Wentz this year. 

 

Edited March 12, 2022 by zCommander

[Ball Security]

1 hour ago, HigSkin said:

I haven't seen this posted anywhere but catching up on some podcasts and Cooley on with Kevin Sheehan with full disclosure he hasn't watched a lot of Wentz's tape but loved him in Philly.  Dare I say he compares him to a supersized Taylor Heinicke with respect to his play (can be reckless, mobility) but with superior physical talent. 

 

They got to talking about the leadership stuff and Cooley recalled guys on his teams where the only QB that had those qualities was Brunell, maybe Grossman.  He didn't recall RGIII having much but he wasn't on the field with him a lot.  Cooley said the leadership can come from different players, like being in the huddle and a player saying to him, really need you to make this play.  Also said nobody gives a crap about leadership if you're winning.  It's the losses that can cause trouble with any team.

 

Cooley did give his opinion on the Eagles situation of drafting Hurts and statue of Foles at their complex.  He kind of felt it would bug him too if that happened to him wouldn't ding him for that.

 

 

That’s why it’s imperative to sign McLaurin this offseason.

[Koolblue13]

Eagles fans when they heard we signed Wentz

 

 

[CommanderInTheRye]

TODAY I LEARNED…

 

Last season Carson Wentz was selected to be a pro bowl alternate in the AFC. No small feat in a conference that boasts the likes of Patrick Mahomes, Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson among others.

 

 

 

So how did someone who played well enough to be considered a pro bowl qb end up being dismissed as not worthy of two 3rd round draft picks three months later?

 

I believe the league’s overall impression of Wentz was dramatically skewed by one game— the loss to the Jags in week 18— which ended the team’s playoff hopes. Prior to that game the general feeling was Wentz was having a fine year, as evidenced by his selection as an alternate pro bowler. After the game groupthink labeled him a dismal failure.

 

However, things aren’t quite that simple or should I say simplistic. Upon closer inspection there were many factors that led to a Jaguar victory that day:

 

1. Wentz and a slew of players were still recovering from symptomatic covid,

2. the defense played uncharacteristically poorly,

3. the Jaguars, who had beaten the Bills earlier in the season, were fully healthy, motivated, care free and played as if this was there super bowl in a game that they knew could keep a hated division rival from making the playoffs (this alone is the perfect recipe for an upset),

4. and worst of all, Frank Reich, had an uninspiring game plan, made questionable in game decisions, and generally didn’t seem to have himself or his team prepared to play that day.

 

But if you watched the talking heads or read the sports page the next day the loss was completely the fault of Carson Wentz—

 

He became the red headed scape goat who conveniently absolved everyone else from blame.

 

I think he will be HIGHLY motivated to redeem himself in 2022.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 12, 2022 by CommanderInTheRye

[The Consigliere]

20 hours ago, Mrshadow008 said:

 

Drug addict like his dad is a better description. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Cooley on Sheehan's podcast.  Man is Sheehan determined to slam Wentz.  He again represented the Eagles reporter who was on his show a few days ago as basically killing Wentz even though that is far from true, heck the reporter actually liked the deal from Washington's standpoint.  He said that the PFF guy who was on his show said Wentz had the most turnover worthy plays in the NFL last year -- also not true.  The PFF guy said on his show Wentz was smack in the middle of the league on turnover worthy plays.  Not dead last.  I just looked it up to confirm.   

 

I know PFF loves Winston relatively speaking but not really any of the other options that exist at Qb.  Sheehan goes that the PFF guy on his show said Winston has "way more upside" than Wentz.  Maybe I missed that comment but I don't think the dude said that either.  But I'd have to relisten to confirm on that one. I recall him comparing Wentz and Winston being apples to apples in that they make risky throws with mixed range of success but liked that Winston could be had for nothing.   

 

But again not to pick on Sheehan I just happened to notice it more with him as to the discrepencies because I like listening to him.  My point is the Wentz press conference with the local media should be interesting.   Seems like these guys think we just signed Freddy Krueger.  😀  I think they will quickly learn they are way overreacting.  These dudes should just listen to their own guests on their own shows who say he's a nice guy but they are so determined to gloss over anything positive that is said and hang hard on anything negative.

 

So to Cooley

 

A.  Used to love Wentz, he didn't say he doesn't like his play anymore but suggested he's concerned about the leadership stories

B.  He thinks he's the best of the options left

C.  Thinks they should still take a Qb in the first round.  QB is everything, stay on the spot. 

D.  Thinks very little of Trubisky, thinks there is nothing to him.    Not a fan of his.

E.  He likes Wentz over Jimmy G. 

F.  Sees Wentz as being similar stylstically to Heinicke as for making off script plays -- except with a real NFL arm and superior athleticism

G.  He was a bit all over the place on the leadership issue.  He put some of the blame on the Eagles including them putting up a banner for Nick Foles after the SB, he goes that's not right and that for a team to get behind a QB they also need to see the organization behind the QB.   Also said from his perspective, leadership on the field from the Qb is more important than off the field.

 

 

Edited March 12, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[HigSkin]

I really like the familarity Wentz has to the NFCE and all the opponents.  It'd have to be the first step to getting anywhere in the playoffs, i.e. winning the division.

[Rex Tomb]

18 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Cooley

I trust Cooley so much more than I do Sheehan, who always seems to have an axe to grind with this organization. I was skeptical of Copley’s assessment of Haskins but holy cow was he spot on.  The guy just seems to know player evaluation; could make a great GM some day.

[Warhead36]

Sheehan's not an analyst, he's a reporter. He's right on some things, but remember this is the same guy that advocated HARD for Sam Darnold last off season. 

[JSSkinz]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Sheehan goes that the PFF guy on his show said Winston has "way more upside" than Wentz.  Maybe I missed that comment but I don't think the dude said that either.

I heard him say it because after mentioning Winston he also said we should have tried to bring back Ryan Fitzpatrick so I immediately checked out on any of his opinions once I heard that. I think the guys name was Sam Monson.

 

What's interesting is that Cooley also said he would put Winston over Wentz which surprised me, but he mentioned he doesn't think throwing interceptions is a big deal.

 

 

 

[RWJ]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

So to Cooley

 

A.  Used to love Wentz, he didn't say he doesn't like his play anymore but suggested he's concerned about the leadership stories

B.  He thinks he's the best of the options left

C.  Thinks they should still take a Qb in the first round.  QB is everything, stay on the spot. 

D.  Thinks very little of Trubisky, thinks there is nothing to him.    Not a fan of his.

E.  He likes Wentz over Jimmy G. 

F.  Sees Wentz as being similar stylstically to Heinicke as for making off script plays -- except with a real NFL arm and superior athleticism

G.  He was a bit all over the place on the leadership issue.  He put some of the blame on the Eagles including them putting up a banner for Nick Foles after the SB, he goes that's not right and that for a team to get behind a QB they also need to see the organization behind the QB.   Also said from his perspective, leadership on the field from the Qb is more important than off the field.

 

 

I will DM you on something on C.  Remember this is not being directed at you, SIP, it's just adding to your convo.  As far as G. is concerned all the videos that I have watched show that Wentz has no issues at all.  He supports his teammates and is a good guy overall.  The banner thing was wrong for Foles.  Wentz got them there and Foles brought it home.  Foles played the games of his career that year after Wentz got hurt and has been nothing since. Can't imagine how Wentz felt when it was his team and he got them there and had to watch from the sidelines in crutches as they won.  One thing on Wentz though is he needs to let things go.  RR is a great HC when it comes to communicating with his players.   

[Darth Tater]

After doing some research on Wentz, my new order of QBs that were actually available to us has Wentz at the top.