The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Zim489]

Cam is far more responsible for the panthers “success” than Ron

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

11 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

Cam is far more responsible for the panthers “success” than Ron

The Panthers were early adopters of schemes built around a dynamic, mobile QB like Cam.  Cam is also one hell of a personality to manage.  That was a mutually successful arrangement, not just Cam Newton dragging Ron into the end zone.

[Zim489]

3 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Homework: everybody should go listen to the third segment of this morning’s Al Galdi podcast on where franchise QB’s come from.  It is excellent analysis.  
 

The segment starts at 24:07 and is about 20 minutes long.  
 

Amount other things he breaks down where each of the star franchise QBs came from, what draft position they were taken in, the results of the first round, etc.

 

Its required listening.

Yeah, I think his main point is “we’re going to get one” and everything else is just filibustering. 

I haven’t listened just yet. I’m going to have to assume it’s that 1-15 is like 30-40% hit rate. 16-32 is like 15%. Day 2 picks are 7%. Day 3 picks are sub 3%. 
 

this is also for elite QBs. I think mediocre to decent are irrelevant placeholders and time wasters until you get an elite guy. 
 

hopefully Al included only 2011 drafts and later. QB drafting is completely different after the rookie cap came out 

Edited January 20, 2022 by Zim489

[NickyJ]

32 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Homework: everybody should go listen to the third segment of this morning’s Al Galdi podcast on where franchise QB’s come from.  It is excellent analysis.  
 

The segment starts at 24:07 and is about 20 minutes long.  
 

Amount other things he breaks down where each of the star franchise QBs came from, what draft position they were taken in, the results of the first round, etc.

 

Its required listening.

Yeah, I think his main point is “we’re going to get one” and everything else is just filibustering. 

I haven’t listened just yet. I’m going to have to assume it’s that 1-15 is like 30-40% hit rate. 16-32 is like 15%. Day 2 picks are 7%. Day 3 picks are sub 3%. 
 

this is also for elite QBs. I think mediocre to decent are irrelevant placeholders and time wasters until you get an elite guy. 
 

hopefully Al included only 2011 drafts and later. QB drafting is completely different after the rookie cap came out 

[DWinzit]

28 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

The Panthers were early adopters of schemes built around a dynamic, mobile QB like Cam.  Cam is also one hell of a personality to manage.  That was a mutually successful arrangement, not just Cam Newton dragging Ron into the end zone.

Yes, they also had a ton of talent and lots of Pro Bowlers on both sides of the ball

[NickyJ]

11 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

Yes, they also had a ton of talent and lots of Pro Bowlers on both sides of the ball

That's a very good point, Rivera did a good job of developing talent on that team.

[DWinzit]

Just now, NickyJ said:

That's a very good point, Rivera did a good job of developing talent on that team.

Correct, developing and drafting. And it isn't like Cam was all the ****

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

24 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

Yes, they also had a ton of talent and lots of Pro Bowlers on both sides of the ball

Not speaking to you directly, but just our fans in general...

 

I get the record hasn't been great here, so I don't expect everyone to be patting him on the back.  I guess I just don't understand what appears to be a constant need to claim any success he's had is the result of others, and all the failures are solely on him.  

 

I'm not in love with Rivera or the setup we have.  Of course I'd love some young, innovative hotshot head coach that is hired by a guy like Schoen.  But that's not who we are.  The best we can possibly ask for is a head coach with respect and a plate with entirely too much on it.  That's just what the optimal setup looks like in a Dan Snyder owned organization.  I'd strongly suggest to all those upset with Rivera, the new name, and so on and so forth to simply use this as a reason to make a clean break from your fandom.  As long as Dan owns this team, this is about the best you're going to get as far as a guy to root for.

Edited January 20, 2022 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[Zim489]

Huh. I was getting error messages positing that. Figured it wasn’t going and I gave up lol. 
 

Guess it did in the worst way possible lol

[Skinsinparadise]

Tough for me to think of a top 10 QB where I think the coach has more to do with the wins than the Qb.  It's a QB driven league.  Maybe Mahomes with Reid?  Otherwise yeah the Qb is front and center.  That's no knock on the coach.  And Cam was far from a consistent barn burner in the mode of name that elite QB.  He wasn't the most accurate thrower among other things.

 

As Jay said the other day on the Standig podcast, coaches who don't have the QB often get fired.  Coaches who have the Qb tend to succeed.

Edited January 20, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Fan since a Fetus]

14 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 I guess I just don't understand what appears to be a constant need to claim any success he's had is the result of others, and all the failures are solely on him.  

 

I'm not in love with Rivera or the setup we have.  Of course I'd love some young, innovative hotshot head coach that is hired by a guy like Schoen.  But that's not who we are.  The best we can possibly ask for is a head coach with respect and a plate with entirely too much on it.  That's just what the optimal setup looks like in a Dan Snyder owned organization.  I'd strongly suggest to all those upset with Rivera, the new name, and so on and so forth to simply use this as a reason to make a clean break from your fandom.  As long as Dan owns this team, this is about the best you're going to get as far as a guy to root for.

I feel like the public in general do this. It seems as if no one can look at things objectively. They find a guy they either like or dislike and credit their failures or accomplishments based on how they feel about that person. It really sucks and it’s part of the reason that people have unrealistic expectations as well as anger. 
 

 

anyways, no matter who coaches here, the moment they step through the door, they have a crap load more responsibilities than almost any other coach in the league. We are ran so poorly that the coach can not just focus on the players and schemes. They have to navigate the ridiculous ownership and everything in between. Any coach that comes here is automatically at a disadvantage. 
 

pretty much every coach that has come through here has a similar record. Even the great coaches. With the successes around the league of McVay, Shannahan, and LaFluer, it’s amazing that they were not successful here together, yet they have moved on and have found plenty of success. It’s not always the coaches, well, except Zorn and Spurrier were never going to be successful head coaches anywhere. 
 

There are a lot of things behind the scenes that make their jobs and lives very difficult. I would do my best to never coach here. I would need a guaranteed ten year 100 million dollar contract. 
 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

27 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Not speaking to you directly, but just our fans in general...

 

I get the record hasn't been great here, so I don't expect everyone to be patting him on the back.  I guess I just don't understand what appears to be a constant need to claim any success he's had is the result of others, and all the failures are solely on him.  

 

I'm not in love with Rivera or the setup we have.  Of course I'd love some young, innovative hotshot head coach that is hired by a guy like Schoen.  But that's not who we are.  The best we can possibly ask for is a head coach with respect and a plate with entirely too much on it.  That's just what the optimal setup looks like in a Dan Snyder owned organization.  I'd strongly suggest to all those upset with Rivera, the new name, and so on and so forth to simply use this as a reason to make a clean break from your fandom.  As long as Dan owns this team, this is about the best you're going to get as far as a guy to root for.

 

Yeah I agree.  This is as good as it gets.  If we reset this thing again, we'd be fishing in the Jim Zorn pool of coaches and Dan will likely find his next best buddy lackey at GM.

 

Rivera is respected.  He's a smart dude and IMO has the people skills to maybe navigate the nonsense that goes on here -- especially dealing with Dan. 

 

If they fire Rivera, it would be another log in the dumpster fire perception that already exists about this team.    Only upside I can see from it is the joke status will hit so absurd crazy lows that maybe the owners would finally kick that dude out.

Edited January 20, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Warhead36]

Rivera is well respected throughout the league and is about the only reason we'd have any chance at landing a quality vet QB like a Russell Wilson.

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, Zim489 said:

I haven’t listened just yet. I’m going to have to assume it’s that 1-15 is like 30-40% hit rate. 16-32 is like 15%. Day 2 picks are 7%. Day 3 picks are sub 3%. 
 

this is also for elite QBs. I think mediocre to decent are irrelevant placeholders and time wasters until you get an elite guy. 
 

hopefully Al included only 2011 drafts and later. QB drafting is completely different after the rookie cap came out 

You'd be wrong. Go listen.

[zCommander]

27 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

As Jay said the other day on the Standig podcast, coaches who don't have the QB often get fired.  Coaches who have the Qb tend to succeed.

 

Kirk Cousins must be the outlier then...lol

 

I would say coaches who are unable to get the right QB get fired. 

[Skinsinparadise]

4 minutes ago, zskins said:

 

Kirk Cousins must be the outlier then...lol

 

I would say coaches who are unable to get the right QB get fired. 

 

By having "the" QB I mean franchise QB.  lol, I thought that was evident in my point.

 

As for Kirk he's IMO in that 10-14 range.  I don't hate Kirk like some here do but I don't think he's in that he will save my job type of status. 

[mhd24]

14 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

By having "the" QB I mean franchise QB.  lol, I thought that was evident in my point.

 

As for Kirk he's IMO in that 10-14 range.  I don't hate Kirk like some here do but I don't think he's in that he will save my job type of status. 

Especially making 45 million guaranteed on the cap.  Speculation is that Minny might trade him b/c he's so tied into their cap.

[Mooka]

57 minutes ago, zskins said:

 

Kirk Cousins must be the outlier then...lol

 

I would say coaches who are unable to get the right QB get fired. 

 

Coach-killer. 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

There are many, many potential targets, some of which I'm told it would be better not to mention by name, lest the people in charge of the teams for which they are currently under contract take umbrage and unleash the NFL's tampering police. So no, I won't be specifically citing any accomplished quarterbacks who may or may not be married to a famous singer, engaged to a famous actress or infamously shelved by a slew of civil lawsuits. Nor will I explicitly ponder the possibility that if a coaching change happens in a city celebrated for its nightlife a certain QB may not stay in said city -- as I did in a recent column for another website.

I know, I know: So much for clarity. It's coming, however, because Rivera -- along with general manager Martin Mayhew and executive vice president of player personnel/football Marty Hurney -- is determined to work toward a franchise-defining decision. Such a move, the coach believes, will create a sense of stability inside the building, sending a message to players, and fans, that the status quo is unacceptable.

 

...For that reason, standing pat is the only option that's not on the table. Among the possibilities:

• Washington could make a major play for a star who might be made available via the trade market, as was the case with Matthew Stafford a year ago. There are at least three decorated passes, including two previous Super Bowl winners, whose potential desire to play elsewhere has surfaced in numerous media reports over the past year, each of whom would theoretically command a steep price. There's another standout quarterback who may also soon fit into this category, according to my aforementioned report for the other website, and Washington could try to (ahem) roll the dice by dealing for him. However, there is no guarantee that any of these quarterbacks will ultimately relocate.
•  
• The team could use its first-round pick (11th overall) -- or trade up in the first round -- to draft a quarterback. This year's class is considered weaker than the crop of passers which produced five of the 2021 draft's first 15 selections, but at least half a dozen draft-eligible QBs could be on the team's radar: Pittsburgh's Kenny Pickett, Mississippi's Matt Corral, North Carolina's Sam Howell, Liberty's Malik Willis, Nevada's Carson Strong and Cincinnati's Desmond Ridder.

 

...Suffice it to say, this is not a new area of emphasis. Members of Washington's analytics department have been crunching numbers on quarterbacks, current pros (who, naturally, shall remain nameless) and draft-eligible collegiate players alike, for the past several months. It's probably not a stretch to say that a waking hour doesn't pass without Rivera at least thinking about the subject.

 

On some level, he has to think about himself. Though he guided Washington to an unlikely playoff berth in his first season, Rivera views Year Three as a pivotal year, and it's likely that ownership shares that opinion. At his season-ending press conference, Rivera was asked about the prospect of picking a quarterback in the first-round -- and he gave a revealing answer. Were that to happen, the coach said, he'd be inclined to start the rookie from the outset, adding one caveat: "Are you guys gonna give me time?"

 

It's a valid question -- patience is usually required when quarterbacks play from the outset -- and one that only ownership can truthfully answer.

Either way, this remains a fluid situation, one that inevitably will be affected by the moves made (or not made) by other teams in the coming weeks.

"It's like they'll be standing at the roulette table, watching the ball bounce around and waiting to see where they land," said one source familiar with the team's plans. "You've got to go down several roads at once, and if all goes well you'll find the guy that can be 'The Guy' for the next 10 or 15 years."

If Washington fails at that endeavor, it won't be for lack of trying. Soon, the fog will clear, and we can all begin assessing the outcome.

•  
• There are quarterbacks on NFL rosters with less star power than the aforementioned trio (or, possibly, quartet) who could be acquired via trade -- I won't mention specific names, but a former No. 1 overall pick and a QB who started for his team in a Super Bowl might fit the bill -- or free agency. Among those who should be available on the free agent market: Jameis Winston (the first overall pick in the 2015 draft) and Mitchell Trubisky (second overall in 2017).

Edited January 20, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[NewCliche21]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

. . .If we reset this thing again, we'd be fishing in the Jim Zorn pool of coaches and Dan will likely find his next best buddy lackey at GM.

<snip> 

<snip>

If they fire Rivera, it would be another log in the dumpster fire perception that already exists about this team.    

 

This is something that the "FIRE THE GUY BECAUSE THINGS I DON'T WIN" groups don't understand.

Regular companies can keep dirt in house, this job is as open for potential candidate to see the working environment of as possible.  EVERYONE knows everyone who would be considered, so if ANOTHER coach gets fired, we won't be able to get interviews with top candidates, just people who can't get hired elsewhere because they have a bad or absent record.

Firing Rivera doesn't get us closer to Gibbs; it gets us much further away.

[Ball Security]

49 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

There are many, many potential targets, some of which I'm told it would be better not to mention by name, lest the people in charge of the teams for which they are currently under contract take umbrage and unleash the NFL's tampering police. So no, I won't be specifically citing any accomplished quarterbacks who may or may not be married to a famous singer, engaged to a famous actress or infamously shelved by a slew of civil lawsuits. Nor will I explicitly ponder the possibility that if a coaching change happens in a city celebrated for its nightlife a certain QB may not stay in said city -- as I did in a recent column for another website.

I know, I know: So much for clarity. It's coming, however, because Rivera -- along with general manager Martin Mayhew and executive vice president of player personnel/football Marty Hurney -- is determined to work toward a franchise-defining decision. Such a move, the coach believes, will create a sense of stability inside the building, sending a message to players, and fans, that the status quo is unacceptable.

 

...For that reason, standing pat is the only option that's not on the table. Among the possibilities:

• Washington could make a major play for a star who might be made available via the trade market, as was the case with Matthew Stafford a year ago. There are at least three decorated passes, including two previous Super Bowl winners, whose potential desire to play elsewhere has surfaced in numerous media reports over the past year, each of whom would theoretically command a steep price. There's another standout quarterback who may also soon fit into this category, according to my aforementioned report for the other website, and Washington could try to (ahem) roll the dice by dealing for him. However, there is no guarantee that any of these quarterbacks will ultimately relocate.
•  
• The team could use its first-round pick (11th overall) -- or trade up in the first round -- to draft a quarterback. This year's class is considered weaker than the crop of passers which produced five of the 2021 draft's first 15 selections, but at least half a dozen draft-eligible QBs could be on the team's radar: Pittsburgh's Kenny Pickett, Mississippi's Matt Corral, North Carolina's Sam Howell, Liberty's Malik Willis, Nevada's Carson Strong and Cincinnati's Desmond Ridder.

 

...Suffice it to say, this is not a new area of emphasis. Members of Washington's analytics department have been crunching numbers on quarterbacks, current pros (who, naturally, shall remain nameless) and draft-eligible collegiate players alike, for the past several months. It's probably not a stretch to say that a waking hour doesn't pass without Rivera at least thinking about the subject.

 

On some level, he has to think about himself. Though he guided Washington to an unlikely playoff berth in his first season, Rivera views Year Three as a pivotal year, and it's likely that ownership shares that opinion. At his season-ending press conference, Rivera was asked about the prospect of picking a quarterback in the first-round -- and he gave a revealing answer. Were that to happen, the coach said, he'd be inclined to start the rookie from the outset, adding one caveat: "Are you guys gonna give me time?"

 

It's a valid question -- patience is usually required when quarterbacks play from the outset -- and one that only ownership can truthfully answer.

Either way, this remains a fluid situation, one that inevitably will be affected by the moves made (or not made) by other teams in the coming weeks.

"It's like they'll be standing at the roulette table, watching the ball bounce around and waiting to see where they land," said one source familiar with the team's plans. "You've got to go down several roads at once, and if all goes well you'll find the guy that can be 'The Guy' for the next 10 or 15 years."

If Washington fails at that endeavor, it won't be for lack of trying. Soon, the fog will clear, and we can all begin assessing the outcome.

•  
• There are quarterbacks on NFL rosters with less star power than the aforementioned trio (or, possibly, quartet) who could be acquired via trade -- I won't mention specific names, but a former No. 1 overall pick and a QB who started for his team in a Super Bowl might fit the bill -- or free agency. Among those who should be available on the free agent market: Jameis Winston (the first overall pick in the 2015 draft) and Mitchell Trubisky (second overall in 2017).

Uhh, does he mean Jared Goff?  Yikes.

 

Nevermind.  He said #1 overall pick and a guy who took his team to the SB.  Not both.  So Jimmy G and Baker.  Not Goff.  

Edited January 20, 2022 by Ball Security

[Zim489]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

You'd be wrong. Go listen.

He didnt get into as much overall depth of it as I have looked into before. 

[JamesMadisonSkins]

That Silver piece is nothing really new, but to me the "make a big move to establish stability (paraphrased) doesn't necessarily scream "sit at #11 and pick a QB" ... sounds to me like targeting a veteran.

[Conn]

1 hour ago, Fan since a Fetus said:

I feel like the public in general do this. It seems as if no one can look at things objectively. They find a guy they either like or dislike and credit their failures or accomplishments based on how they feel about that person. It really sucks and it’s part of the reason that people have unrealistic expectations as well as anger. 
 

 

anyways, no matter who coaches here, the moment they step through the door, they have a crap load more responsibilities than almost any other coach in the league. We are ran so poorly that the coach can not just focus on the players and schemes. They have to navigate the ridiculous ownership and everything in between. Any coach that comes here is automatically at a disadvantage. 
 

pretty much every coach that has come through here has a similar record. Even the great coaches. With the successes around the league of McVay, Shannahan, and LaFluer, it’s amazing that they were not successful here together, yet they have moved on and have found plenty of success. It’s not always the coaches, well, except Zorn and Spurrier were never going to be successful head coaches anywhere. 
 

There are a lot of things behind the scenes that make their jobs and lives very difficult. I would do my best to never coach here. I would need a guaranteed ten year 100 million dollar contract. 
 

 

@thesubmittedone That sound you hear is tso finally releasing the breath he’s been holding for over a decade as everyone catches up to what he’s been saying all along 

[DWinzit]

1 minute ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

That Silver piece is nothing really new, but to me the "make a big move to establish stability (paraphrased) doesn't necessarily scream "sit at #11 and pick a QB" ... sounds to me like targeting a veteran.

Yeah and there it doesn't sound like a Mariota/Trubisky.

If Matt Ryan wasn't so old, I would be certain he is the guy that Ron likes