The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Theismann to HOF]

14 hours ago, Ball Security said:

No you didn’t.  Allen did not throw three interceptions in one quarter against Atlanta.  Stop lying.

 

He did throw three picks that game, yes. A game that his team won.  And a game that he still led his team to 29 points.  So in this awful game that you cite he still puts up more points than Heinicke did in all but two of his starts.

 

I didn't lie.  Allen threw 3 INTs in 3 CONSECUTIVE POSSESSIONS against the Falcons.  Hence, why I said "ONE QUARTER".

 

Yes, I know....Allen scored those 29 points all by himself.  Offensive talent doesn't matter on a team at all.  What a joke.

[mistertim]

19 minutes ago, Theismann to HOF said:

 

There is no point in continuing this discussion.  All of your opinions are based on stats and that is simply a horrible way to judge QBs.  There are way too many variables that go into those QB stats, like the talent and ability of your teammates.

 

All you see are passing yards and TD passes.  Heinicke played on a lousy team and still had fewer INTs than Stafford.  That should tell you something.  If Heinicke played for the Rams, they would have a better record than they've had with Stafford.

 

Stafford, Cousins, and Jimmy G are not capable of carrying an inferior team to victory, not the way that Heinicke did against Tampa Bay this season.  Heinicke has  natural instincts in the pocket and athletic ability that all of those guys lack.  None of them can handle a pass rush as well as Heinicke, as he showed against Tampa Bay.  And he certainly has more poise than Cousins and Jimmy G in the 4th quarter.  I trust Heinicke a lot more at the end of a game than any of these guys.  It's his intangible qualities that make Heinicke special.

 

All of this are much more important qualities for a QB than your precious stats.

 

Heinicke will be the starter for the WFT next season.  Rivera and Turner see the same qualities that make Heinicke special that I do.

 

 

If Rivera and Turner see the same qualities in Heinicke as you, then why have they been so quiet about it? Why haven't they been declaring it since the end of the season and talking about how Heinicke is going to be their starter next season? Why have they spent their time giving nice coach speak without actually even saying Heinicke will get the chance to compete for the starting job this season? Usually when coaches truly dig a QB they won't play games about it and will tell everyone that they have absolute faith in that QB and he will be the starter going forward. 

 

And yes, passing yards and TDs are important, seeing as how points win football games. And I love how you talk about how my "opinions" are wrong and yet decide to throw out rando absolutes like how various other QBs would never have been able to win some of the games that Heinicke did without anything even resembling proof.

 

I think we just need to face the fact that your obsession with Heinicke seems to be bordering on psychosis. You completely dismiss anything at all that could possibly indicate that Heinicke isn't amazing while simultaneously throwing out ridiculous scenarios to try and somehow "prove" that Heinicke is better than other QBs, despite the likelihood that there are literally zero NFL coaches who agree with you.

 

And if you don't like stats, please stop throwing out your "HEINICKE 5 GAME WINNING DRIVES! HEINICKE 65% COMPLETION RATE!" nonsense, because it's been demonstrated to be nonsensical. Otherwise there's absolutely no way a guy like Pennington could have a high completion percentage given how obviously weak his arm was.

 

So yes, you're right. This discussion is as pointless as one with a brick wall. As far as Heinicke starting next season I'd certainly do a sig bet on that one.

 

Edited January 19, 2022 by mistertim

[Dan T.]

The thing about Heinecke’s lack of arm strength is that he seems aware of his limitations and rarely attempts a throw that he’s incapable of executing.  That, to me, shows his game awareness.  However, it does put limitations on what patterns the O can run.  The deep and intermediate outs are not in his playbook.  He can loft a ball over a short zone, but he can’t zip a 20 yard post between closing defenders.
 

He was one of my favorite players on the field last season. His wheels get him out of trouble, and allow him to make plays out of nothing. The team seems to rally around him.  He is a great underdog story. But he’s not destined to continue starting. He might be a bridge if we draft a guy, just like Fitz was supposed to be this year. And he’s earned a spot as a trusty backup, which is a long way from sleeping on his sister’s sofa and taking math classes. 

Edited January 19, 2022 by Dan T.

[Rufus T Firefly]

[Conn]

21 minutes ago, Dan T. said:

The thing about Heinecke’s lack of arm strength is that he seems aware of his limitations and rarely attempts a throw that he’s incapable of executing. 

 

I feel like I’m misunderstanding you or taking crazy pills. Behind his lack of arm strength, I would say the lack of awareness and compensation for it is his second worst quality by far. He throws tons of inadvisable passes that he can’t get away with. Some became beautiful miracle receptions, those were fun. Some were broken up or should have been intercepted, or were. Some became nice receptions that a better throw would have led into a longer YAC or TD, but every QB does that. The most I would say became what I call murder balls, and most call hospital balls, where he was trying to squeeze in passes he doesn’t have the arm for and getting guys killed on the field left and right. I feel like the vast majority of the issues I had with Heinicke this year weren’t because he was refusing to throw balls he couldn’t—that happened, but it more so limited the plays we called in the first place—they were because he was continually trying to make dangerous throws he’s not capable of. Under-thrown, late, or dangerous to the receiver—it’s all bad and due to decision making that doesn’t compensate for his weak arm the way say a late-career Drew Brees or Peyton Manning had to learn to do. I’m not saying I expected him to be those guys, simply saying that I could not disagree more with what I quoted here and those two guys are examples of what you’re talking about actually playing out.

Edited January 19, 2022 by ConnSKINS26

[Theismann to HOF]

29 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

If Rivera and Turner see the same qualities in Heinicke as you, then why have they been so quiet about it? Why haven't they been declaring it since the end of the season and talking about how Heinicke is going to be their starter next season? Why have they spent their time giving nice coach speak without actually even saying Heinicke will get the chance to compete for the starting job this season? Usually when coaches truly dig a QB they won't play games about it and will tell everyone that they have absolute faith in that QB and he will be the starter going forward. 

 

And yes, passing yards and TDs are important, seeing as how points win football games. And I love how you talk about how my "opinions" are wrong and yet decide to throw out rando absolutes like how various other QBs would never have been able to win some of the games that Heinicke did without anything even resembling proof.

 

I think we just need to face the fact that your obsession with Heinicke seems to be bordering on psychosis. You completely dismiss anything at all that could possibly indicate that Heinicke isn't amazing while simultaneously throwing out ridiculous scenarios to try and somehow "prove" that Heinicke is better than other QBs, despite the likelihood that there are literally zero NFL coaches who agree with you.

 

And if you don't like stats, please stop throwing out your "HEINICKE 5 GAME WINNING DRIVES! HEINICKE 65% COMPLETION RATE!" nonsense, because it's been demonstrated to be nonsensical. Otherwise there's absolutely no way a guy like Pennington could have a high completion percentage given how obviously weak his arm was.

 

So yes, you're right. This discussion is as pointless as one with a brick wall. As far as Heinicke starting next season I'd certainly do a sig bet on that one.

 

 

Turner already did express his confidence in Heincke-- by telling Heinicke in 2019 and 2020 not to give up on football yet, when Heinicke was about to.  Because he knew the guy could play.  And Turner still believes in him.  

 

Very few undrafted free agent QBs survive this long in the NFL.  That fact alone indicates that there is something special about Heinicke.  The fact that Heinicke has been hanging around the league since 2015 shows that his various coaches like what they've seen in him, despite the lack of playing time.  There has to be some luck involved for an undrafted QB to make it in the NFL.  And Heinicke was lucky enough to get that chance last year.  

 

If Tom Brady or Joe Montana were undrafted QBs from a small college, they most likely never would have had a chance at success in the NFL, either.  Coaches don't risk their reputations on undrafted QBs from small colleges.

 

 

[Theismann to HOF]

5 minutes ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

 

I feel like I’m misunderstanding you or taking crazy pills. Behind his lack of arm strength, I would say the lack of awareness and compensation for it is his second worst quality by far. He throws tons of inadvisable passes that he can’t get away with. Some became beautiful miracle receptions, those were fun. Some were broken up or should have been intercepted, or were. Some became nice receptions that a better throw would have led into a longer YAC or TD, but every QB does that. The most I would say became what I call murder balls, and most call hospital balls, where he was trying to squeeze in passes he doesn’t have the arm for and getting guys killed on the field left and right. I feel like the vast majority of the issues I had with Heinicke this year weren’t because he was refusing to throw balls he couldn’t—that happened, but it more so limited the plays we called in the first place—they were because he was continually trying to make dangerous throws he’s not capable of. Under-thrown, late, or dangerous to the receiver—it’s all bad and due to decision making that doesn’t compensate for his weak arm the way say a late-career Drew Brees or Peyton Manning had to learn to do. I’m not saying I expected him to be those guys, simply saying that I could not disagree more with what I quoted here and those two guys are examples of what you’re talking about actually playing out.

 

Heinicke makes very good decisions with the ball the vast majority of the time.  And he is also very accurate -- not many passes get away from him.  For example, I haven't seen Heinicke throw a pass way too high and get intercepted this season, like Jimmy G. did against Dallas last weekend.

 

The only time Heinicke doesn't do a good job protecting the ball is when the team is way behind, like they were against Buffalo and Dallas.  In those situations, he tries to do too much and takes additional risks.  That is correctable with more playing time.

[mistertim]

4 minutes ago, Theismann to HOF said:

 

Turner already did express his confidence in Heincke-- by telling Heinicke in 2019 and 2020 not to give up on football yet, when Heinicke was about to.  Because he knew the guy could play.  And Turner still believes in him.  

 

So again I ask...if Turner and Rivera are as confident in Heinicke as you are, why have they declined to say he's the presumptive starter? Why haven't they even said he'd have every opportunity to keep the starting job? When coaches truly believe in a QB and want him as their starter going forward, they say so. They don't completely avoid even saying his name as Ron has done.

 

The only time they ever talk about Heinicke is when someone else brings him up specifically and they give standard coach-speak while making no efford to even imply that he could be the starter this coming season and no effort to bat down the tons of questions they're asked about upgrading the position.

 

Wonder why that is. Maybe...just maybe it's because they saw enough of him this season and see him as a backup and not a viable starter. But how can that possibly be? You've been so instrumental in opening our eyes to the magical wonder that is Taylor Heinicke. How could they possibly not see the same thing? 

[Theismann to HOF]

50 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

If Rivera and Turner see the same qualities in Heinicke as you, then why have they been so quiet about it? Why haven't they been declaring it since the end of the season and talking about how Heinicke is going to be their starter next season? Why have they spent their time giving nice coach speak without actually even saying Heinicke will get the chance to compete for the starting job this season? Usually when coaches truly dig a QB they won't play games about it and will tell everyone that they have absolute faith in that QB and he will be the starter going forward. 

 

And yes, passing yards and TDs are important, seeing as how points win football games. And I love how you talk about how my "opinions" are wrong and yet decide to throw out rando absolutes like how various other QBs would never have been able to win some of the games that Heinicke did without anything even resembling proof.

 

I think we just need to face the fact that your obsession with Heinicke seems to be bordering on psychosis. You completely dismiss anything at all that could possibly indicate that Heinicke isn't amazing while simultaneously throwing out ridiculous scenarios to try and somehow "prove" that Heinicke is better than other QBs, despite the likelihood that there are literally zero NFL coaches who agree with you.

 

And if you don't like stats, please stop throwing out your "HEINICKE 5 GAME WINNING DRIVES! HEINICKE 65% COMPLETION RATE!" nonsense, because it's been demonstrated to be nonsensical. Otherwise there's absolutely no way a guy like Pennington could have a high completion percentage given how obviously weak his arm was.

 

So yes, you're right. This discussion is as pointless as one with a brick wall. As far as Heinicke starting next season I'd certainly do a sig bet on that one.

 

 

You haven't "demonstrated" in any way that I'm wrong about Heinicke.  You believe what you want and I'll continuing believing what I want.

[Conn]

2 minutes ago, Theismann to HOF said:

 

Heinicke makes very good decisions with the ball the vast majority of the time.  And he is also very accurate -- not many passes get away from him.  For example, I haven't seen Heinicke throw a pass way too high and get intercepted this season, like Jimmy G. did against Dallas last weekend.

 

The only time Heinicke doesn't do a good job protecting the ball is when the team is way behind, like they were against Buffalo and Dallas.  In those situations, he tries to do too much and takes additional risks.  That is correctable with more playing time.

Do not quote me again please, I don’t want to have to google how to put people on ignore, it’s been years since I’ve done it. This is a simple request and you seem to do well with simple ideas, so I think we’re probably good 👍 

[mistertim]

1 minute ago, Theismann to HOF said:

 

You haven't "demonstrated" in any way that I'm wrong about Heinicke.  You believe what you want and I'll continuing believing what I want.

 

Ok so give me a quote from Rivera and/or Turner where they said that Heinicke will be the presumtive starter this coming season or definitely will at the very least be in the mix for the starting job. Or even a quote where they shot down the idea that they're openly looking for an upgrade. You won't find any of these things.

 

Again, when coaches believe in a QB they don't beat around the bush. They say things like "he's our QB" or "this is his team" or at least "he's the presumptive starter." They don't essentially forget that he even exists when doing inteviews.

 

So this isn't a "belief" thing. It's what the coaches are actually saying (or, just as importantly, what they're not saying)

[Theismann to HOF]

1 minute ago, mistertim said:

So again I ask...if Turner and Rivera are as confident in Heinicke as you are, why have they declined to say he's the presumptive starter? Why haven't they even said he'd have every opportunity to keep the starting job? When coaches truly believe in a QB and want him as their starter going forward, they say so. They don't completely avoid even saying his name as Ron has done.

 

The only time they ever talk about Heinicke is when someone else brings him up specifically and they give standard coach-speak while making no efford to even imply that he could be the starter this coming season and no effort to bat down the tons of questions they're asked about upgrading the position.

 

Wonder why that is. Maybe...just maybe it's because they saw enough of him this season and see him as a backup and not a viable starter. But how can that possibly be? You've been so instrumental in opening our eyes to the magical wonder that is Taylor Heinicke. How could they possibly not see the same thing? 

 

You're looking way too much into this.  Just because Heinicke hasn't gotten a "vote of confidence" doesn't mean that he has no reasonable chance to be the starter next season.  His familiarity with Turner's offense is a big advantage for him.  That's why he was brought to the WFT in the first place.

 

I don't think the vast majority of the starting QBs in this league get a "vote of confidence" at the end of the season.

[mistertim]

1 minute ago, Theismann to HOF said:

 

You're looking way too much into this.  Just because Heinicke hasn't gotten a "vote of confidence" doesn't mean that he has no reasonable chance to be the starter next season.  His familiarity with Turner's offense is a big advantage for him.  That's why he was brought to the WFT in the first place.

 

I don't think the vast majority of the starting QBs in this league get a "vote of confidence" at the end of the season.

 

He was brought in because of COVID and we literally had nobody to play the position.

 

And yes teams' QBs get "votes of confidence" when their coaches actually believe in them. That's especially true when there may be some external questions about the QB. We've seen it happen plenty of times. But for some reason Ron and Turner seemed to have basically forgotten that Heinicke even exists when it comes to discussing this upcoming season and the QB position.

 

And from what has been said in leaks and interviews with the coaches, Heinicke's only reasonable chance to be the starter is if they absolutely fail miserably in FA and trades and they draft a QB who isn't ready yet.

[Theismann to HOF]

5 minutes ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

Do not quote me again please, I don’t want to have to google how to put people on ignore, it’s been years since I’ve done it. This is a simple request and you seem to do well with simple ideas, so I think we’re probably good 👍 

 

Do you always cry when people disagree with you?  Do you need a bottle?

[Theismann to HOF]

2 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

He was brought in because of COVID and we literally had nobody to play the position.

 

And yes teams' QBs get "votes of confidence" when their coaches actually believe in them. That's especially true when there may be some external questions about the QB. We've seen it happen plenty of times. But for some reason Ron and Turner seemed to have basically forgotten that Heinicke even exists when it comes to discussing this upcoming season and the QB position.

 

And from what has been said in leaks and interviews with the coaches, Heinicke's only reasonable chance to be the starter is if they absolutely fail miserably in FA and trades and they draft a QB who isn't ready yet.

 

Rivera and Turner have "forgotten" their starting QB for virtually the entire season exists?  I can't take your opinion about this seriously when you make those types of ridiculous exaggerations.

 

They will fail in free agency, because there are virtually no QBs available that are better than Heinicke.  Definitely not Jimmy G.  And definitely not 34-year-old Russell Wilson.  

[Redskins 2021]

1 hour ago, Zim489 said:

So our GM isnt going to one of the biggest scouting events of the year because...

reasons?

This is so dumb. Every time I hear Ron talk about Roster construction I think he sounds like a bumbling idiot. 

I just dont understand. 

This also would be utterly incompetent  

Only way I could think this is ok is if they already have a deal in place for someone if not he should be down there.

[mistertim]

5 minutes ago, Theismann to HOF said:

 

Rivera and Turner have "forgotten" their starting QB for virtually the entire season exists?  I can't take your opinion about this seriously when you make those types of ridiculous exaggerations.

 

They will fail in free agency, because there are virtually no QBs available that are better than Heinicke.  Definitely not Jimmy G.  And definitely not 34-year-old Russell Wilson.  

 

Ever since the season ended all the talk has been about getting an upgrade at the position. When Ron does interviews now he doesn't even mention Heinicke unless he's very specifically pressed on him and even then it's just coach speak...it's not talking about how Heinicke could be or is their QB of the future. None of that is opinion...it's fact. I already to asked you to provide a quote otherwise, but interestingly you've been mum on that.

 

So no, I doubt they literally forgot the QB who started the entire season, but they certainly seem to be discounting him when talking about the QB position going forward. Again, if they truly believed he was the future or could be their starting QB this season they would absolutely have made it a point to say something like that.

 

 

Oh and now we're back to not just saying Heinicke is better than Stafford, but better that future HoFer Russell Wilson. 

Edited January 19, 2022 by mistertim

[Burgundy Yoda]

On 1/17/2022 at 6:30 PM, TheBlueIndian said:

In a scenario where we are starting TH next season, is there any hope that he can build up some arm strength in the off season ? Are there examples of QBs doing this  ? 

 

I really don't know if thats physically possible to do in an off season, and if he could have done it, he probably would have already. The guy seems like a grinder maybe there is some hope if we have to call on him again.

It seems like it would be possible, baseball players can get more velocity on their fastballs, but of course that velocity goes back down when they're roughly in their mid 30s. 

 

I think you are right though that it's questionable if it's even physically possible to do in an offseason.

 

Zach Wilson potentially had a pretty big boost in arm strength off the top of my head. It could also be that he's improved his confidence and willingness to zip the ball in places. Factors that we will probably never know. 

Edited January 19, 2022 by Burgundy Yoda

[Theismann to HOF]

2 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Ever since the season ended all the talk has been about getting an upgrade at the position. When Ron does interviews now he doesn't even mention Heinicke unless he's very specifically pressed on him and even then it's just coach speak...it's not talking about how Heinicke could be or is their QB of the future. None of that is opinion...it's fact. I already to asked you to provide a quote otherwise, but interestingly you've been mum on that.

 

So no, I doubt they literally forgot the QB who started the entire season, but they certainly seem to be discounting him when talking about the QB position going forward. Again, if they truly believed he was the future or could be their starting QB this season they would absolutely have made it a point to say something like that.

 

 

Oh and now we're back to not just saying Heinicke is better than Stafford, but better that future HoFer Russell Wilson. 

 

Again....why does the lack of a quote mean anything one way or another?  It doesn't.

 

Based on the Russell Wilson that I saw against the WFT earlier this season?  Yes, Heinicke is definitely better than that version of Wilson.  It would be foolish to spend a lot of money on a QB who is starting to break down from injuries.  Besides, Wilson would not come to this dysfunctional franchise.

[OMacAttack]

Has Fitz done any interviews about his future? Curious if he is planning on playing or retiring and I can't find anything.

[zCommander]

1 minute ago, mistertim said:

 

Ever since the season ended all the talk has been about getting an upgrade at the position. When Ron does interviews now he doesn't even mention Heinicke unless he's very specifically pressed on him and even then it's just coach speak...it's not talking about how Heinicke could be or is their QB of the future. None of that is opinion...it's fact. I already to asked you to provide a quote otherwise, but interestingly you've been mum on that.

 

So no, I doubt they literally forgot the QB who started the entire season, but they certainly seem to be discounting him when talking about the QB position going forward. Again, if they truly believed he was the future or could be their starting QB this season they would absolutely have made it a point to say something like that.

 

Wait what? lol

No coach is going to say this is what I am doing. This is who I am starting as the season just ended. Ron and company have to put all the cards on the table and figure out what works best for the team or will work. 

 

I know you like to make absolute statements like they are facts. Saying words like crystal clear and forgotten. Ron has to be pretty stupid not to think about every option at the QB position and that includes Taylor. Is Taylor going to start next year? I sure hell don't know and not sure how you think he won't. Oh yeah because Ron hasn't come out and said who the starting QB going to be next year even though the draft hasn't even happened yet or even the training camp...lol 

 

Get a grip man. 

 

 

[Conn]

Edit: wrong thread 

Edited January 19, 2022 by ConnSKINS26

[Burgundy Yoda]

I just came here to see if there was any potential QBs we should target but it seems like all our problems are fixed now that Heincike is better than Russell Wilson and Matt Stafford. 

[mistertim]

5 minutes ago, Theismann to HOF said:

 

Again....why does the lack of a quote mean anything one way or another?  It doesn't.

 

Based on the Russell Wilson that I saw against the WFT earlier this season?  Yes, Heinicke is definitely better than that version of Wilson.  It would be foolish to spend a lot of money on a QB who is starting to break down from injuries.  Besides, Wilson would not come to this dysfunctional franchise.

 

2 minutes ago, zskins said:

 

Wait what? lol

No coach is going to say this is what I am doing. This is who I am starting as the season just ended. Ron and company have to put all the cards on the table and figure out what works best for the team or will work. 

 

I know you like to make absolute statements like they are facts. Saying words like crystal clear and forgotten. Ron has to be pretty stupid not to think about every option at the QB position and that includes Taylor. Is Taylor going to start next year? I sure hell don't know and not sure how you think he won't. Oh yeah because Ron hasn't come out and said who the starting QB going to be next year even though the draft hasn't even happened yet or even the training camp...lol 

 

Get a grip man. 

 

 

 

Coaches absolutely will throw their weight behind a QB if they truly believe in them. I have no idea why you guys seem to find that odd to say. If they truly believed Heinicke would or could be the guy they'd have said it or at least something along those lines.

 

But instead they been almost completely mum on him unless they're asked a very direct question about TH's role in the upcoming season, in which case they've fallen back on coach-speak about how he's a hard worker and yadda yadda, but won't even actually say that he could be the starter next season.

 

If they truly believe he had a chance to be their guy, they would have said something. Or at the very very least they would have said TH would absolutely be part of competition for the starting job. But nope.

 

As far as putting all the cards on the table and figuring out what will work best for the team, all the reporting so far has said they plan to go hard on an upgrade at the position this offseason and Ron has implied that as well.

[Jumbo]

ok...i let it go on for a long time just to observe but it's done now...though we have other hijinks underway, too

 

so don't waste anymore strokes on the spammer