The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[El Mexican]

14 hours ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

Nah. They would get smoked. They couldn’t play that aggressive style of man coverage and formation based blitzing.

 

As some have said it's impossible to do this type of comparisons.

 

But having seen the '85 Bears and the '91 Eagles I have no doubt they would pose some serious trouble for most modern offenses.

Main reason (besides laxer PI rules) would be LB play. Both teams were loaded on the front seven.

Yeah maybe modern teams would keep them honest with some deep routes here and there but the brutality of the front seven would be a mayor PIA today.

 

Redskins '91 team actually applied this same aggressive attitude with its front seven to the very good Buffalo offense in the '92 SB.

Their receivers were being popped in the middle by our LBs on practically every play, as well as their RBs. Constant pressure on Kelly up front sealed the day.

 

'85 Bears and '91 Eagles are the blueprint of most defenses of the modern era, including the Ray Lewis-led Ravens.

They were that good and were a joy to watch.

Edited December 26, 2023 by El Mexican

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

59 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

The combination of EB’s offense and JDR’s defense has got to be the most predictable, vanilla combination that existed.

I know it’s popular now to bag on Sam and finalize his career as Minshew at best.  🤣.  But I’ll die on the hill that his downfall has much more  to do with everything around him than it does him.  That’s not because I have anything invested him personally, but from everything I’ve digested the entirety of the season from folks smarter than me that break down the tape. An OC’s primary job in developing a QB is to play to their strengths, and get them in a rhythm scheming easy throws, and good luck finding much of that at all the entirety of the season.  It also might help to come up with some level of run game.  There’s a reason that every week this team gets its ass kicked, every opposing defense makes note of how easy this offense is to defend.  

 

Gardner Minshew is a fine QB. That isn’t an insult. He’s just not worthy of being built around. Same with Sam at least in my opinion. Teams without direction will always need solid bridge/backup QBs like Minshew, Jameis, Colt, Heinicke, etc. And I’d bet a ton of money that if you went back and found a Bucs message board or a Browns one, you’d find folks giving similar arguments in defense of Jameis and Colt from back in the day. Sam’s story is not all that unique. A lot of middling/bad QBs got raw deals at various points. I know we think this is the worst situation in the NFL’s history but it’s not. It’s not a fair league. 

17 minutes ago, El Mexican said:

 

As some have said it's impossible to do this type of comparisons.

 

But having seen the '85 Bears and the '91 Eagles I have no doubt they would pose some serious trouble for most modern offenses.

Main reason (besides laxer PI rules) would be LB play. Both teams were loaded on the front seven.

Yeah maybe modern teams would keep them honest with some deep routes here and there but the brutality of the front seven would be a mayor PIA today.

 

Redskins '91 team actually applied this same aggressive attitude with its front seven to the very good Buffalo offense in the '92 SB.

Their receivers were being popped in the middle by our LBs on practically every play, as well as their RBs. Constant pressure on Kelly up front sealed the day.

 

'85 Bears and '91 Eagles are the blueprint of most defenses of the modern era, including the Ray Lewis-led Ravens.

They were that good and were a joy to watch.

A lot of those old school LBs would be smoked in the modern NFL bc they wouldn’t be able to cover LBs or RBs. They’d be facing offenses that are comfortable throwing 40-50+ times a game. 

[Warhead36]

Minshew is a fine comp to Howell. He's had some good games and some stinkers. He's fiesty and a competitor but watching him play, you don't see an elite blue chipper that you can build around and that's why he's bounced around the league(third different team already).

[wit33]

If your QB can’t operate comfortably within the pocket and he provides no dual threat ability, you will lose against the other 25 QBs that can each NFL season. 
 

Criminal Howell's running prowess wasn't a focal point of the offense. If your quarterback possesses the ability to run, it stands as one of the prime methods to enhance offensive proficiency while nurturing the quarterback's growth.

 

Jayden Daniels/Fields/Murray + Bill B + Greg Roman = 11 wins

[Drock_VB]

I’d like to keep our current QB situation and trade down for more picks.   Not going to turn this thing around in 1 year.  And who knows, maybe we can get our guy in later rounds.  Plenty of non first round top tier QB’s around the league. 
 

Drafting a top sure fire QB sounds great, but this franchise will ruin him under the current state of the team . 
 

There are way too many needs on this team. Priorities need to be centered around  the O-line.  Without that, anything this team does is futile. 
 

imagine having a dominant offensive line and being able to run the ball.   

[Warhead36]

6 minutes ago, Drock_VB said:

I’d like to keep our current QB situation and trade down for more picks.   Not going to turn this thing around in 1 year.  And who knows, maybe we can get our guy in later rounds.  Plenty of non first round top tier QB’s around the league. 
 

Drafting a top sure fire QB sounds great, but this franchise will ruin him under the current state of the team . 
 

There are way too many needs on this team. Priorities need to be centered around  the O-line.  Without that, anything this team does is futile. 
 

imagine having a dominant offensive line and being able to run the ball.   

Until you get your QB in the buliding you're going nowhere. Just gonna be stuck in the cycle of mediocrity.

 

Get your QB in ASAP and we can get the ball rolling. Who knows if we'll have this opportunity again? Top 5 pick in a strong QB class means we gotta take a swing.

[wit33]

1 hour ago, Drock_VB said:

I’d like to keep our current QB situation and trade down for more picks.   Not going to turn this thing around in 1 year.  And who knows, maybe we can get our guy in later rounds.  Plenty of non first round top tier QB’s around the league. 
 

Drafting a top sure fire QB sounds great, but this franchise will ruin him under the current state of the team . 
 

There are way too many needs on this team. Priorities need to be centered around  the O-line.  Without that, anything this team does is futile. 
 

imagine having a dominant offensive line and being able to run the ball.   

 

What’s “turning it around” for you? Half of the playoff teams are kinda average each year, so it’s doable to catch up and snag a playoff spot within a year. But breaking past that barrier usually requires top-notch QBs or coaches and sometimes elite cultures and identity.

 

Whoever takes the reins has to aim for playoffs from day one—no excuses there. If the front office and coaches are preaching “let’s wait and see,” that’s not a good sign. Sure, patience to build a powerhouse Super Bowl team, yeah, but playoffs? Nah, that’s just making excuses. I wasn’t thrilled when Ron first joined; I thought he’d be tough and demand greatness from the start, but he turned out to be muuuuuch more laid-back than I expected.

Edited December 26, 2023 by wit33

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

I’m so tired of trying to build towards one of those random 10-7 seasons and then lose in the WC game and miss the playoffs the next season. I want to aim high for once. Average QB play gets you average results. As much as I was never convinced by Sam, I DID NOT want one of those 8-9 win seasons with Jacoby this season. Having a random playoff year that leads to nothing does not interest me anymore. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

2 hours ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

I know we think this is the worst situation in the NFL’s history but it’s not. It’s not a fair league. 

I don’t think that at all.

 

I just see a dude without even one full season worth of starts and a whole bunch of definitive projections as to who he is.  Folks talking about him like he’s played a few seasons, has no good tape other than moments of moxie.  It feels like forever ago, but prominent players on our own team, along with the national media determined him the guy.  Just wild to me that a snide like this in a hopeless season, with a hopeless OC and hopeless team has plagued him as forever meh, with no hope for retribution.  
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

10 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I don’t think that at all.

 

I just see a dude without even one full season worth of starts and a whole bunch of definitive projections as to who he is.  Folks talking about him like he’s played a few seasons, has no good tape other than moments of moxie.  It feels like forever ago, but prominent players on our own team, along with the national media determined him the guy.  Just wild to me that a snide like this in a hopeless season, with a hopeless OC and hopeless team has plagued him as forever meh, with no hope for retribution.  
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That’s literally the NFL, man. Same thing happened to Minshew in 2019 and that’s why I keep using him as an example. Do you remember Minshew Mania? The NFL QB carousel is jam packed with guys that had success, crashed out, and were quickly/“unfairly” replaced. That’s the business. Minshew was getting a ton of attention nationally but the Jags weren’t gonna give him another year when they had Lawrence, Tu’a, Herbert, etc available in the draft. Minshew road the bench, bounced around, and is currently having fun in Indy. 
 

Ironically enough, 2019 Minshew and 2023 Sam have almost the exact same QBR. 
 

https://www.jacksonville.com/story/sports/nfl/2021/08/28/minshew-mania-how-sixth-round-draft-pick-captured-citys-heart/5634790001/

Edited December 26, 2023 by BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

@BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 Gardner Mimshew 

might as well have been Taylor Heinicke to me.  I just never saw a guy that can make all the throws, which is bulletpoint #1 for me.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

[RWJ]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Rivera is a very cruel individual. He is going to possibly ruin a QBs career and his decision.  Anyone with 1/2 a brain knows that Brissett should be starting against the 9ers.  I hope the media strongly calls Rivera out.  I would hope our owner has nothing to do with this.   

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

3 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

@BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 Gardner Mimshew 

might as well have been Taylor Heinicke to me.  I just never saw a guy that can make all the throws, which is bulletpoint #1 for me.

I got you. I like the moxy, controlled chaos cult of personality guys in a vaccum. If I needed to win a game, I’d take him or Jameis or Heinicke. I see Sam’s final form looking something like that. I understand your point on the arm strength but Sam’s size and lack of processing ability keeps him in the this kind of category for me. 

[Skinsinparadise]

11 minutes ago, RWJ said:

Rivera is a very cruel individual. He is going to possibly ruin a QBs career and his decision.  Anyone with 1/2 a brain knows that Brissett should be starting against the 9ers.  I hope the media strongly calls Rivera out.  I would hope our owner has nothing to do with this.   

 

Depends on perspective.  I assume by cruel the idea is its a given that Howell will play poorly so why shake his confidence even more?

 

But you can also say benching Howell two games in a row and then benching him permantely to ensure his last impression is a bad one -- jacks up the odds that Sam isn't the guy next year from like 90% to 100% with the new regime.

 

Ron also exposes the narrative he's sold behind the scenes about Sam's demeanor including how resilient he is as total BS -- basically its putting Ron's signature on Sam's grave and capping off his whole regime as an abject failure considering the one thing he tried to sell this season is yeah maybe so but he found Howell.

 

 

 

Edited December 26, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[PerryMason]

Shutting Howell down has to be the move.  If you lose the last two games its defended by saying you shut the starter down to keep him healthy for next year.  If you win the last two it makes you look like you wanted to evaluate the back up and finish strong.  If you start Howell and you lose two games you look like youre risking his health for nothing and if you win both games it looks like youre risking his health for meaningless wins.

[RWJ]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Depends on perspective.  I assume by cruel the idea is its a given that Howell will play poorly so why shake his confidence even more?

 

But you can also say benching Howell two games in a row and then benching him permantely to ensure his last impression is a bad one -- jacks up the odds that Sam isn't the guy next year from like 90% to 100% with the new regime.

 

Ron also exposes the narrative he's sold behind the scenes about Sam's demeanor including how resilient he is as total BS -- basically its putting Ron's signature on Sam's grave and capping off his whole regime as an abject failure considering the one thing he tried to sell this season is yeah maybe so but he found Howell.

 

 

 

It's all disgusting to me, SIP.  You know where I am coming from.  Just sad and sick at the same time.  Poor Sam!  

[Skinsinparadise]

8 minutes ago, RWJ said:

It's all disgusting to me, SIP.  You know where I am coming from.  Just sad and sick at the same time.  Poor Sam!  

 

He's been playing poorly but its not like he's under more duress of late compared to earlier this season.   He's just playing bad.

 

If this is the last note from Sam, IMO it ensures they go for a QB this off season.  Of course they won't say it publicly.  But it just about guarantees thats how it unfolds behind the scenes. 

 

Having said that, Ron capping off his tenure with a journeyman QB, trying to win a meaningless game to ruin draft position when they are eliminated from the playoffs -- fits him like a glove.  It's VERY Ron to admit defeat on his chosen QB and finish off the season with another QB. 

 

 

 

I think its clear its Brissett even without the tweet below.  If your starting QB is going to start next Sunday, you just say he is starting and Ron did not.

 

 

 

Edited December 26, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[RWJ]

11 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I think its clear its Brissett even without the tweet below.  If your starting QB is going to start next Sunday, you just say he is starting and Ron did not.

 

Trying to save space so I keep in the post what is only needed.  I hope so!  It's the only logical thing to do.  The 9ers will destroy us this Sunday and if Dallas has anything to play for, which they probably will, they win too.  I just see it being a different situation for Brissett starting verses coming off the bench.  When coming off the bench you mind doesn't have time to think about it.  When Brissett knows for a week, I think it produces different results from a mental, then playing in the game standpoint.  We shall see but I hope Howell is shut down for the year.  

[Skinsinparadise]

9 minutes ago, RWJ said:

Trying to save space so I keep in the post what is only needed.  I hope so!  It's the only logical thing to do.  The 9ers will destroy us this Sunday and if Dallas has anything to play for, which they probably will, they win too.  I just see it being a different situation for Brissett starting verses coming off the bench.  When coming off the bench you mind doesn't have time to think about it.  When Brissett knows for a week, I think it produces different results from a mental, then playing in the game standpoint.  We shall see but I hope Howell is shut down for the year.  

 

I don't really care one way or another.  My mind is already focused on a Qb in this draft.

 

But purely from a Sam Howell standpoint in his shoes I'd want a chance to dig myself out of this versus basically throw in the towell that I am not the guy in 2024.

 

From a Ron standpoint it exposes IMO his hypocrisy.  Part of his rap on Howell behind the scenes and publicly is that Howell is special in part because of how tough and resilient he is.  This basically says its BS.  Sam is fragile and mentally can't handle this stretch of adversity so he needs to protect him. 

 

Also like I just said its VERY Ron to basically admit defeat on his choice at QB and try to sell some meaningless win at the end of the season (I agree he probably doesn't accomplish it but its certainly his goal) with a new QB. 

Edited December 26, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[The Rook]

5 hours ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

Right. That’s why Buddy Ryan’s defense didn’t work against them.

 

Did you guys ever hear of the body-bag game?  Buddy coached that one for Philly.

Just saying ...

 

 

 

 

 

The Rook

[Rufus T Firefly]

I don't think we can beat SF anyway, but I worry about an unmotivated Cowboy game. So, my thought was go ahead and start the Brisket this week and put Sam back in for the finale. 

 

Giving it a bit of thought, I think that is the best for Sam too. He could watch and regroup for a week and then have a chance to get back on the horse for one more game before the offseason. 

[Est.1974]

1 hour ago, RWJ said:

Rivera is a very cruel individual. He is going to possibly ruin a QBs career and his decision.  Anyone with 1/2 a brain knows that Brissett should be starting against the 9ers.  I hope the media strongly calls Rivera out.  I would hope our owner has nothing to do with this.   

Not sure how much of a brain I have then as I don’t want Brissett anywhere near the field for 2 games.

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Est.1974 said:

Not sure how much of a brain I have then as I don’t want Brissett anywhere near the field for 2 games.

Ya I must be brainless, too. I don’t want to win and Howell being mentally defeated can’t really fall any further. 
 

Either he shows significant growth in the last two games in spite of what surrounds him and gives the franchise something to think about or he commands the tank.

 

I don’t think anyone can lead this team to wins at this point. But I sure as hell don’t want it to be Brissett if we do the unthinkable.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

17 minutes ago, The Rook said:

 

Did you guys ever hear of the body-bag game?  Buddy coached that one for Philly.

Just saying ...

Yeah, well we went into that game with our first and second string quarterbacks hurt and then they injured our next two quarterbacks and we had to finish with Brian Mitchell taking snaps.
 

That was one of the three times Buddy beat us. We won eight times. His record against the rest of the league was 40-30-1.