The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[mistertim]

Mobility is an awesome asset for a QB but only if he's also a top notch passer. Mahomes, Allen, Hurts, (formerly) Wilson, to an extent Rodgers...those guys are elite passers first, running/scrambling ability is second. I know Turner is persona non grata here (for some good reasons) but he made that same point when asked about running ability for QBs. Passing ability has to come first, mobility is an added bonus. I'm guessing most coaches feel the same way.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

10 minutes ago, mistertim said:

Mobility is an awesome asset for a QB but only if he's also a top notch passer. Mahomes, Allen, Hurts, (formerly) Wilson, to an extent Rodgers...those guys are elite passers first, running/scrambling ability is second. I know Turner is persona non grata here (for some good reasons) but he made that same point when asked about running ability for QBs. Passing ability has to come first, mobility is an added bonus. I'm guessing most coaches feel the same way.

 

Until last season Hurts passing ability was way behind his mobility. Same with Josh Allen until his 3rd or 4th season. Wilson had to develop as a passer as well, but his development went much quicker.

 

To be a great QB, sure. Passer > Mobility.

But Mobility (with pocket presence) will ease in your development as a passer. Maybe that's why Scott Turner was always confused.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Always A Commander Never A Captain

[Warhead36]

1 hour ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

 

 

 

To be a great QB, sure. Passer > Mobility.

But Mobility (with pocket presence) will ease in your development as a passer. Maybe that's why Scott Turner was always confused.

Yep you're spot on. Mobility early helps QBs develop. You can still be competitive with basic running QB based systems while they learn how to be a passer. Heck we were doing the same thing with RG3 in 2012 until his knee got destroyed and he insisted on changing his development plan.

[wit33]

If your QB cannot create and extend, your team is at a huge disadvantage. The pure pocket passer is dead, sorry to those romantic with the past. The actions of the NFL is proof.

 

Pocket manipulation and play extension belongs right there with knowing the offense and just a smidge below accuracy for me. 
 

Whoooole Bunch of backups who know their offense front to back that fail to be good enough to hold down a job (starters as well). Backyard football is king, much like the 3 point shot in the NBA. 
 

 

[mistertim]

5 hours ago, wit33 said:

If your QB cannot create and extend, your team is at a huge disadvantage. The pure pocket passer is dead, sorry to those romantic with the past. The actions of the NFL is proof.

 

Pocket manipulation and play extension belongs right there with knowing the offense and just a smidge below accuracy for me. 
 

Whoooole Bunch of backups who know their offense front to back that fail to be good enough to hold down a job (starters as well). Backyard football is king, much like the 3 point shot in the NBA. 
 

 

I don't think anyone here is really pining for the days of statue pocket passers. At least for me it's more along the lines of "being mobile and being able to extend plays is a great trait to have for a modern QB, and will give them an advantage, but it's a distant second to being a great and accurate passer." Mahomes and Allen are seen as the elite QBs of the league not because they're mobile and can run, but because they're elite passers. Being mobile and extending plays is just a huge bonus.

 

If your guy can run but isn't a great passer, you end up with Lamar Jackson. Sure, some still think he's great, but he's had extremely mediocre production the last couple of years and has really only had one elite year. He's also now an injury concern and is taking up a ton of cap space.

Edited June 30, 2023 by mistertim

[Jumbo]

Here's my June prediction: we will push Dallas and the Eagles hard for first place in the division.

 

 

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

8 hours ago, wit33 said:

The pure pocket passer is dead, sorry to those romantic with the past.

Tom Brady led his teams to ten Super Bowls.

[rumplestilskin]

2 hours ago, Jumbo said:

Here's my June prediction: we will push Dallas and the Eagles hard for first place in the division.

 

 

 Enthusiasm and optimism this early is a sure sign that the witch is dead. I am liking our chances also now that the curse is lifted.

[Conn]

2 hours ago, Jumbo said:

Here's my June prediction: we will push Dallas and the Eagles hard for first place in the division.

 

 

I hope you’re right, that would imply excellent outcomes for many areas of the team that badly need them 

[duffy]

6 hours ago, mistertim said:

If your guy can run but isn't a great passer, you end up with Lamar Jackson. Sure, some still think he's great, but he's had extremely mediocre production the last couple of years and has really only had one elite year. He's also now an injury concern and is taking up a ton of cap space.

He hasn't really had a decent WR corps until maybe this year. Absolutely going to be an injury risk simply sure to his style, but I think you're underestimating him as a passer. Greg Roman's offense was mostly run orientated and didn't help his passing stats. 

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, duffy said:

He hasn't really had a decent WR corps until maybe this year. Absolutely going to be an injury risk simply sure to his style, but I think you're underestimating him as a passer. Greg Roman's offense was mostly run orientated and didn't help his passing stats. 

 

IMO he's always been a mediocre passer with suspect accuracy. He was in college and he continues to be in the NFL. His primary weapon has always been his legs and I think Roman knew that, which is partially why they were very run heavy.

 

I think he's overall a fringe top 10 QB who's getting paid as if he's the best in the game. Add to that the injury history and to me it's basically a nightmare scenario.

[wit33]

5 hours ago, Conn said:

I hope you’re right, that would imply excellent outcomes for many areas of the team that badly need them 

QB is only question mark. Everyone is overreacting to the Oline— if your qb and scheme is good your Oline will be just fine. 
 

I expect the defense to be number 1. The talent, depth, leadership, and continuity on this side of the ball is being overlooked by local and national media. Will be disappointed if Ron and Jack don’t have this defense humming all season like those elite Panther defenses.

 

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

 

IMO he's always been a mediocre passer with suspect accuracy. He was in college and he continues to be in the NFL. His primary weapon has always been his legs and I think Roman knew that, which is partially why they were very run heavy.

 

I think he's overall a fringe top 10 QB who's getting paid as if he's the best in the game. Add to that the injury history and to me it's basically a nightmare scenario.

 

The goal posts will continue to move for you as his career goes along, the last being he must win a SB lol (most don’t).

 

Did you think he was capable of winning an MVP when drafted? How about winning 70 plus percent of his starts over his first 5 seasons? How about securing a second major contract with an elite franchise? 

 

He has weaknesses, no doubt, but he’s one of the few QBs who can take down/go heads up with a Burrow, Mahomes or Allen 
 

 

8 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

I don't think anyone here is really pining for the days of statue pocket passers. At least for me it's more along the lines of "being mobile and being able to extend plays is a great trait to have for a modern QB, and will give them an advantage, but it's a distant second to being a great and accurate passer." Mahomes and Allen are seen as the elite QBs of the league not because they're mobile and can run, but because they're elite passers. Being mobile and extending plays is just a huge bonus.

 

Both would’ve been out of the league without elite backyard football abilities.  

 

8 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

If your guy can run but isn't a great passer, you end up with Lamar Jackson. Sure, some still think he's great, but he's had extremely mediocre production the last couple of years and has really only had one elite year. He's also now an injury concern and is taking up a ton of cap space.

 

You’re completely alone on this mountain top.
 

You don’t like this style of QB (cool), that doesn’t mean it doesn’t have value or net positive results.  
 

[mistertim]

2 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

The goal posts will continue to move for you as his career goes along, the last being he must win a SB lol (most don’t).

 

Did you think he was capable of winning an MVP when drafted? How about winning 70 plus percent of his starts over his first 5 seasons? How about securing a second major contract with an elite franchise? 

 

He has weaknesses, no doubt, but he’s one of the few QBs who can take down/go heads up with a Burrow, Mahomes or Allen 
 

 

 

Both would’ve been out of the league without elite backyard football abilities.  

 

 

You’re completely alone on this mountain top.
 

You don’t like this style of QB (cool), that doesn’t mean it doesn’t have value or net positive results.  
 

 

What goalposts have moved? I've consistently said I think he's not a great QB and has only had one great year and since then has been mostly mediocre. I notice you just happen to focus on things that make him look good while ignoring the fact that the actual numbers he's putting up now are pretty meh. He won MVP years ago. Cool story. Since then he's basically been a middle of the road QB. Then you go to counting wins, when it's a team stat (this seems to be a favorite when people are trying to prop up QBs who aren't putting up much in the way of actual numbers).

 

Does securing a big contract now mean that a QB is elite because he gets paid like one? QB contracts now are insane, and IMO this is a bad situation because you have a "good" but not elite QB but you have to make him the highest paid player in the NFL if you want to keep him. And I'm not really sure what you mean by taking down Burrow, Mahomes, or Allen since Lamar doesn't play defense. If you want to compare them compare their stats. He's not even in the same universe as them.

 

Mahomes and Allen would have been out of the league if they didn't develop into elite passers. They did. Yes they have backyard ball skills, but they're elite passers in general. 

 

And I'm not alone on the Jackson mountain top. Most sports writers, even the ones who like him, put him maybe in the top 10. He still has a couple of homer writers who put him up there with the elite but then can't actually explain logically why he should be there.

 

And yeah, I don't really like running QBs. Which is what Lamar is. Which is also totally different from guys like Mahomes and Allen. Jackson is basically the only running QB in the NFL (I'm not quite ready to label Fields as that yet, as we need to see how he develops as a passer). Lamar just got a huge contract. Great, happy for him. He still hasn't done much of note since his one great season years ago. Now he also has injury concerns on top of everything else. 

I never said he had no value. I said I think people overestimate his value. To me it's ludicrous to pay him the money he's getting. IMO he hasn't played well enough to earn it and on top of that now has an injury history. But, again, because QB salaries in general are so insane the only option they had if they wanted to keep him was to pay him what he wanted. The other option was to trade him, but it sort of sounds like they didn't have many suitors. At least for the kind of picks they were looking to get.

 

If he suddenly turns around and returns to 2019 form (and stays that way) then I'll absolutely come in and say I was completely wrong about him. But I think the chance of that happening are slim to none.

Edited July 1, 2023 by mistertim

[MrJL]

2 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

What goalposts have moved?

 

I believe in this case that's not meant as a bad thing, but essentially with each new level of success a new goal must be set

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

5 hours ago, wit33 said:

Both would’ve been out of the league without elite backyard football abilities.

Mahomes and Allen? You’re out of your ****ing mind, dude.

[mistertim]

43 minutes ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

Mahomes and Allen? You’re out of your ****ing mind, dude.

 

He's absolutely obsessed with running ability of QBs.

[MartinC]

22 hours ago, wit33 said:

If your QB cannot create and extend, your team is at a huge disadvantage. The pure pocket passer is dead, sorry to those romantic with the past. The actions of the NFL is proof.

 

Pocket manipulation and play extension belongs right there with knowing the offense and just a smidge below accuracy for me. 
 

Whoooole Bunch of backups who know their offense front to back that fail to be good enough to hold down a job (starters as well). Backyard football is king, much like the 3 point shot in the NBA. 
 

 

Here are the last ten Super Bowl winning QBs. Of these only Wilson and Mahomes could be called mobile - and neither is a running QB, both use mobility to create time to make plays outside the structure. Clearly having the ability to escape pressure and create outside the structure is very very useful, but to be a successful QB I still think the ability to process information, get the ball out on time and with accuracy from within the pocket is the foundation you need. Mobility is the cherry on the cake, it’s not the cake.
 

Super Bowl 48: Russell Wilson (Malcolm Smith), 2TDs
Super Bowl 49: Tom Brady (MVP), 4TDs
Super Bowl 50: Peyton Manning (Von Miller), 0TDs
Super Bowl 51: Tom Brady (MVP), 2TDs
Super Bowl 52: Nick Foles (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 53: Tom Brady (Julian Edelman), 0TDs
Super Bowl 54: Patrick Mahomes (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 55: Tom Brady (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 56: Matthew Stafford (Cooper Kupp), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 57: Patrick Mahomes (MVP), 3 TDs

[illone]

Here you go @Jumbo

 

Just need 7wins for even money. 
 

My wife said I can bet the house on this one 😂
 

Edited July 1, 2023 by illone

[MartinC]

1 hour ago, illone said:

Here you go @Jumbo

 

Just need 7wins for even money. 
 

My wife said I can bet the house on this one 😂
 

Did she specify whose house?

[Koolblue13]

2 hours ago, MartinC said:

Here are the last ten Super Bowl winning QBs. Of these only Wilson and Mahomes could be called mobile - and neither is a running QB, both use mobility to create time to make plays outside the structure. Clearly having the ability to escape pressure and create outside the structure is very very useful, but to be a successful QB I still think the ability to process information, get the ball out on time and with accuracy from within the pocket is the foundation you need. Mobility is the cherry on the cake, it’s not the cake.
 

Super Bowl 48: Russell Wilson (Malcolm Smith), 2TDs
Super Bowl 49: Tom Brady (MVP), 4TDs
Super Bowl 50: Peyton Manning (Von Miller), 0TDs
Super Bowl 51: Tom Brady (MVP), 2TDs
Super Bowl 52: Nick Foles (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 53: Tom Brady (Julian Edelman), 0TDs
Super Bowl 54: Patrick Mahomes (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 55: Tom Brady (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 56: Matthew Stafford (Cooper Kupp), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 57: Patrick Mahomes (MVP), 3 TDs

I made this exact argument to Cailfan the other day and he said the past doesn't mater, except the past 5 years and you have to include the losing QBs and if they fit into the definition that he made up.

 

I agree with you. Mobility is great, but QB gotta QB first.

[FootballZombie]

3 hours ago, MartinC said:

Mobility is the cherry on the cake, it’s not the cake

 

Mahomie just became the ultimate example of this. While its fair to call him a QB who can move, he just won a super bowl on one leg. Dude was hobbling around the field for dang near the entire playoff run, and throwing off of one leg too.

He's not special b/c he can run, its just an added bonus that he can.

If you can sling it w/ the best of 'em there will always be a place for you in the NFL, even if your feet are fused to the earth.

 

 

If your going all Madden "Create-a-Character" then sure, the desire is to have everything on the menu, but the idea that some elite passer can't succeed in today's NFL without tremendous mobility is silly and even more especially so when you saw Mahomes do just that due to injury.

 

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

12 hours ago, wit33 said:

QB is only question mark. Everyone is overreacting to the Oline— if your qb and scheme is good your Oline will be just fine. 
 

I expect the defense to be number 1. The talent, depth, leadership, and continuity on this side of the ball is being overlooked by local and national media. Will be disappointed if Ron and Jack don’t have this defense humming all season like those elite Panther defenses.

 

 

The goal posts will continue to move for you as his career goes along, the last being he must win a SB lol (most don’t).

 

Did you think he was capable of winning an MVP when drafted? How about winning 70 plus percent of his starts over his first 5 seasons? How about securing a second major contract with an elite franchise? 

 

He has weaknesses, no doubt, but he’s one of the few QBs who can take down/go heads up with a Burrow, Mahomes or Allen 
 

 

 

Both would’ve been out of the league without elite backyard football abilities.  

 

 

You’re completely alone on this mountain top.
 

You don’t like this style of QB (cool), that doesn’t mean it doesn’t have value or net positive results.  
 

I won't go so far as to call Lamar mediocre but that poster is not alone. I think you are limited in what you can win with Lamar Jackson.  It sure has played out that way in the playoffs. While I agree in today's game if you don't have a QB who can extend plays or run for 9 on 3rd and 8 you are at a big disadvantage. But a QB still has to hit what he is throwing at at a high level to be considered a top tier QB IMO. 

[wit33]

6 hours ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

Mahomes and Allen? You’re out of your ****ing mind, dude.

Less true with Mahomes, but both were atrocious initially with reading the field and different coverages. Basically from my limited view, high to low ore vice versa, then attempt to create/extend. 
 

Take a look at the start of Josh Allen’s NFL career,  another bad half year passing Buffalo might’ve moved on (it was close). His run and creating ability bought him time. Fortunately, he had a defensive head coach who I imagine didn’t have his ego tied up in how the offense was performing.
 

If it was an offensive coach he probably would’ve been benched for a Case Keenum type because he knows the offense front to back lol. 

 

9 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

What goalposts have moved? I've consistently said I think he's not a great QB and has only had one great year and since then has been mostly mediocre. I notice you just happen to focus on things that make him look good while ignoring the fact that the actual numbers he's putting up now are pretty meh. He won MVP years ago. Cool story. Since then he's basically been a middle of the road QB. Then you go to counting wins, when it's a team stat (this seems to be a favorite when people are trying to prop up QBs who aren't putting up much in the way of actual numbers).

 

Your disdain for running QBs leads me to believe you felt he’d bust out of the league and in no way would’ve thought he’d be the MVP of the entire National Football League or win 70 plus percent of his games through 5 seasons. Yes, QBs of Jackson’s ilk play a significant role in whether their teams win or lose. 
 

9 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

Does securing a big contract now mean that a QB is elite because he gets paid like one? QB contracts now are insane, and IMO this is a bad situation because you have a "good" but not elite QB but you have to make him the highest paid player in the NFL if you want to keep him. And I'm not really sure what you mean by taking down Burrow, Mahomes, or Allen since Lamar doesn't play defense. If you want to compare them compare their stats. He's not even in the same universe as them.

 

Being paid elite dollars by and elite organization carries a bit more weight for me. I agree with your point QBs often are overpaid. Personally, not the case with Jackson, he has to big of a positive impact on wins to put him category of competent starters needing things around them to be great. With Jackson, you’re guaranteed an elite run game, time of possession in your favor and in most seasons a strong TO ratio. 

 

9 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

Mahomes and Allen would have been out of the league if they didn't develop into elite passers. They did. Yes they have backyard ball skills, but they're elite passers in general. 
 

 

Allen’s likely a backup if not for his elite run ability and willingness to give the middle finger to the status quo of how a QB should play early in his career. Allen is nowhere close to an elite passer of the football. 

 

9 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

And I'm not alone on the Jackson mountain top. Most sports writers, even the ones who like him, put him maybe in the top 10. He still has a couple of homer writers who put him up there with the elite but then can't actually explain logically why he should be there.

 

I’m cool with top 10, with disclaimer his ceiling is NFL MVP. 
 

9 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

And yeah, I don't really like running QBs. Which is what Lamar is. Which is also totally different from guys like Mahomes and Allen. Jackson is basically the only running QB in the NFL (I'm not quite ready to label Fields as that yet, as we need to see how he develops as a passer). Lamar just got a huge contract. Great, happy for him. He still hasn't done much of note since his one great season years ago. Now he also has injury concerns on top of everything else.

 

I believe you felt Ravens wouldn’t pay him, they did. It’s okay to not like the style of a QB, but can’t argue his accomplishments and overall impact on wins. 

 

9 hours ago, mistertim said:

I never said he had no value. I said I think people overestimate his value. To me it's ludicrous to pay him the money he's getting. IMO he hasn't played well enough to earn it and on top of that now has an injury history. But, again, because QB salaries in general are so insane the only option they had if they wanted to keep him was to pay him what he wanted. The other option was to trade him, but it sort of sounds like they didn't have many suitors. At least for the kind of picks they were looking to get.

 

His next contract there’s more of an argument to not sign him, when he’ll be entering his early 30s. It’s a no brainer to resign him now. His impact on wins rivals the elites. 
 

9 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

If he suddenly turns around and returns to 2019 form (and stays that way) then I'll absolutely come in and say I was completely wrong about him. But I think the chance of that happening are slim to none.

Nah, lead Ravens to being the number one rush offense and continue to be dynamic when needed will suffice. 

 

5 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

He's absolutely obsessed with running ability of QBs.

I support whatever provides known variables, a high floor, and overall competence while on a rookie salary. I’d be all in on Kirk Cousins , the worst improv QB this century, if at 5% of the cap. Competence at fair or great value is all I want. 
 

Open minded, give it a try. 

[wit33]

2 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

I made this exact argument to Cailfan the other day and he said the past doesn't mater, except the past 5 years and you have to include the losing QBs and if they fit into the definition that he made up.

 

I agree with you. Mobility is great, but QB gotta QB first.

Unique mobility can buy time for that QB to develop in other areas. Mahomes shared not knowing defenses early in his career and he still dominated, a great deal of that had to do with his playmaking ability. 

 

51 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

 

Mahomie just became the ultimate example of this. While its fair to call him a QB who can move, he just won a super bowl on one leg. Dude was hobbling around the field for dang near the entire playoff run, and throwing off of one leg too.

He's not special b/c he can run, its just an added bonus that he can.

If you can sling it w/ the best of 'em there will always be a place for you in the NFL, even if your feet are fused to the earth.

 

 

If your going all Madden "Create-a-Character" then sure, the desire is to have everything on the menu, but the idea that some elite passer can't succeed in today's NFL without tremendous mobility is silly and even more especially so when you saw Mahomes do just that due to injury.

 

 

He’s at all time level now, but his first few years he struggled with reading coverages and his mechanics were more inconsistent. No doubt he’s humming on all levels these days. 

 

47 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

I won't go so far as to call Lamar mediocre but that poster is not alone. I think you are limited in what you can win with Lamar Jackson.  It sure has played out that way in the playoffs. While I agree in today's game if you don't have a QB who can extend plays or run for 9 on 3rd and 8 you are at a big disadvantage. But a QB still has to hit what he is throwing at at a high level to be considered a top tier QB IMO. 

Lamar being classified as mediocre is nonsensical. 
 

His impact is real. Most of Vegas has Ravens at 10 or 11 wins and right around 5th -7th in terms of wins. This is because of Jackson! 

[MartinC]

1 minute ago, wit33 said:

 

He’s at all time level now, but his first few years he struggled with reading coverages and his mechanics were more inconsistent. No doubt he’s humming on all levels these days. 

Struggled his first few years as a passer??

 

Mahomes passed for 5000 yards and 50

passing TDs in his first year as a starter. I hope Howells struggles like that.