The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

 

I hate to get excited about one game, but I'm not. I was excited about Howell in the draft. This is why I was big on having a big resume of games played (Ridder and Howell, not Willis), so we could be accurate judges of them in case they did not play as rookies. So now I'm going mostly off college tape and the improvements I've heard he's made (but I'm tapering that because normally I hear things like "improved arm strength" for TH and I then SIP tells me its the same weak arm.)

 

But it was nice to hear Gruden on Sheehan's show yesterday kinda go at him saying no Howell was a first round QB. I don't know why he dropped, but he was supposed to be a first round QB. So We have the fans, Scot, Gruden, Ron, the Martys. Will anybody be able to convince this guy that Howell just dropped for unknown reasons in a bad QB draft and maybe we got lucky?

 

Yeah I am a cynic about QBs in their late 20s saying they have a new stronger arm.  Granted it was just one player but the Colt McCoy narrative from the WP -- it was easy to see within minutes in training camp that it was total BS.

 

Howell has a major league NFL arm.  Strong armed kid.

 

You lean on the optimistic side with our young QBs over the years.    I tend to go back and forth but lean on the optimistic side typically.

 

I am going to try to stay medium.  As Arians points out on his book, the wildcard and main plot line for any young QB is their field vision and how quickly they can process things.  And you don't really know until the movie plays out some.  But aside from Howell's height, I like his tools and makeup.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

1 hour ago, Thinking Skins said:

The thing is, Love **** the bed when he first played. Ridder (who I was high on in the draft, probably higher than Howell cause of his mobility) didn't look nearly as good throwing it, 

 

I hate to get excited about one game, but I'm not. I was excited about Howell in the draft. This is why I was big on having a big resume of games played (Ridder and Howell, not Willis), so we could be accurate judges of them in case they did not play as rookies. So now I'm going mostly off college tape and the improvements I've heard he's made (but I'm tapering that because normally I hear things like "improved arm strength" for TH and I then SIP tells me its the same weak arm.)

 

But it was nice to hear Gruden on Sheehan's show yesterday kinda go at him saying no Howell was a first round QB. I don't know why he dropped, but he was supposed to be a first round QB. So We have the fans, Scot, Gruden, Ron, the Martys. Will anybody be able to convince this guy that Howell just dropped for unknown reasons in a bad QB draft and maybe we got lucky?

 

Howell's supposed improvements are things that can actually happening, vs the arm strength thing which has never happened ever. You don't suddenly get more zip on the ball, you can either throw a rope or you can't. You can work on core, legs, mechanics for a better deep ball if given space to setup for it. But that's not zip.

 

If you couldn't throw a 10 yard out on a rope when you entered the league, you won't ever be able to do it.

 

Howell's footwork improvements are common though. Marrying up feet to the drop on the play and then the read progression happens all the time. It may seem less likely as that's what Haskins always "worked on" but never improved. But that was just one bad prospect.

 

We'll find out in training camp if there's another more doubtful improvement narrative for Howell, but his footwork improvements should not carry the same stigma as the mythical "my arm suddenly got stronger" storyline we've all heard before.

[Thinking Skins]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Yeah I am a cynic about QBs in their late 20s saying they have a new stronger arm.  Granted it was just one player but the Colt McCoy narrative from the WP -- it was easy to see within minutes in training camp that it was total BS.

 

Howell has a major league NFL arm.  Strong armed kid.

 

You lean on the optimistic side with our young QBs over the years.    I tend to go back and forth but lean on the optimistic side typically.

 

I am going to try to stay medium.  As Arians points out on his book, the wildcard and main plot line for any young QB is their field vision and how quickly they can process things.  And you don't really know until the movie plays out some.  But aside from Howell's height, I like his tools and makeup.

Yeah. I pretty much see the draft as a crapshoot. It's not a measure of talent as much as draft experts want it to believe. And I know I will stick to a late round guy who shows promise for a while, but that's all I need. It shows they should have been drafted higher. 

 

There are things like arm strength and vision and mobility and that's important. But then there's stuff like leadership and intelligence and work ethic and motivation which are harder to measure. 

 

With the right OC we could work with McCoy or TH. But not with Turner. With Shanahan, yeah. But this aren't a dime a dozen. These lower right QBs can be developed but need the right coaches and environment to develop them, just like most non-genuises. 

[Skinsinparadise]

27 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Yeah. I pretty much see the draft as a crapshoot. It's not a measure of talent as much as draft experts want it to believe. And I know I will stick to a late round guy who shows promise for a while, but that's all I need. It shows they should have been drafted higher. 

 

 

Stats are pretty damning as for late round QBs versus the early ones.  Exceptions exist at every spot of course.   I feel a bit different about Howell because he's not the typical 5th rounder.  

 

27 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

There are things like arm strength and vision and mobility and that's important. But then there's stuff like leadership and intelligence and work ethic and motivation which are harder to measure. 

 

 

Judging by Arians take a big part of it is processing the field fast.  Work ethic helps you do that but you also need the smarts and vision to pull it off. 

 

I do think for a QB, the more tools the better but the processing skills aren't easy to come by apparently.

 

27 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

 

With the right OC we could work with McCoy or TH. But not with Turner. With Shanahan, yeah. But this aren't a dime a dozen. These lower right QBs can be developed but need the right coaches and environment to develop them, just like most non-genuises. 

 

TH without accuracy or arm strength or high end decision making chops IMO is a hopeless case.   Colt's accuracy is just OK and also lacks arm strength and his decision making is mediocre IMO.  I don't see see any OC transforming either player.  If Colt had it, he has had plenty of opportunities to showcase it.   Both do have moxie though.

 

Edited July 12, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

35 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

TH without accuracy or arm strength or high end decision making chops IMO is a hopeless case.  

 

 

Just kidding. 

[FootballZombie]

56 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

TH without accuracy or arm strength or high end decision making chops IMO is a hopeless case.

 

[Thinking Skins]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Stats are pretty damning as for late round QBs versus the early ones.  Exceptions exist at every spot of course.   I feel a bit different about Howell because he's not the typical 5th rounder.  

 

 

Judging by Arians take a big part of it is processing the field fast.  Work ethic helps you do that but you also need the smarts and vision to pull it off. 

 

I do think for a QB, the more tools the better but the processing skills aren't easy to come by apparently.

 

 

TH without accuracy or arm strength or high end decision making chops IMO is a hopeless case.   Colt's accuracy is just OK and also lacks arm strength and his decision making is mediocre IMO.  I don't see see any OC transforming either player.  If Colt had it, he has had plenty of opportunities to showcase it.   Both do have moxie though.

 

So you'll notice though that I don't bump up every late round QB. I pick my battles. I just think that there are a lot of variables in college football that do not translate to the NFL. Like Joshua Jones having the tools but feels like going to a HBCU will be better for him after football, that may hurt his draft status but it doesn't mean he can't play. His competition may not be the same as the SEC or the PAC10, but he should still get scouted. 

 

There is a disparity in who's getting the attention right now. People are going to look at Alabama and not Alcorn St. TH showed he should have been drafted, say a third rounder (his numbers are better than anybody taken in the 2017 draft after the first round).

[Skinsinparadise]

58 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

TH showed he should have been drafted, say a third rounder (his numbers are better than anybody taken in the 2017 draft after the first round).

 

I think there are plenty of later round QBs who are capable of being a decent backup QB but aren't starter material.  TH would be a textbook case for that.

 

I do think though the mid to late round types do typically get a shot at backup QB status.

Edited July 12, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Thinking Skins]

23 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I think there are plenty of later round QBs who are capable of being a decent backup QB but aren't starter material.  TH would be a textbook case for that.

 

I do think though the mid to late round types do typically get a shot at backup QB status.

But TH didn't. He had to go to the arena football and be a backup there and still be out of football. Dude was considering coaching. Laying on his sister's couch. Then the miracle happened. We saw his moxie. 5 read QB. Couldn't get anybody to come to his workouts other than Turner. 

[Skinsinparadise]

16 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

But TH didn't. He had to go to the arena football and be a backup there and still be out of football. Dude was considering coaching. Laying on his sister's couch. Then the miracle happened. We saw his moxie. 5 read QB. Couldn't get anybody to come to his workouts other than Turner. 

 

I agree that some QBs who are serviceable at best backups but aren't starter quality might get lost in the shuffle as a potential backup.  TH was a bad starter,and clearly doesn't belong as a starter in the league.  But sure he can be in conversation with Nick Mullens,  Brian Hoyer, Easton Stick crowd as a backup QB.  But for me, its not a big deal.  I don't think its too hard to find a backup QB in today's league.

Edited July 12, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

Having a vet back up when you have a young questionable starter is great.

 

Having a solid vet back up when you have a solid vet starter and are a contender is also great.

 

When you have a solid starter and a building team, you need to keep throwing draft picks at the position until you land a stud.

 

Which you should probably be doing anyway.

 

Howell could be that guy. I like how it's set up now, but Fromm isn't a pipeline QB. He's fodder.

[Thinking Skins]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I agree that some QBs who are serviceable at best backups but aren't starter quality might get lost in the shuffle.  TH was a bad starter,and clearly doesn't belong as a starter in the league.  But sure he can be in conversation with Nick Mullen,  Brian Hoyers, Easton Stick crowd as a backup QB.  But for me, its not a big deal.  I don't think its too hard to find a backup QBs in today's league.

See this is where we disagree again. It's teams like is that could use a TH or a Mullen. Sure they're a drop in the pan, but they're better than Mark Sanchez and the rug rats we've had running the farm here. We literally had John Beck throwing passes in San Nick NFL game. We had coaches get Shane Matthews and Danny Woeful to compete in camp. I do wish we had a higher value on lower round and undrafted QBs. 

[Skinsinparadise]

29 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

See this is where we disagree again. It's teams like is that could use a TH or a Mullen. Sure they're a drop in the pan, but they're better than Mark Sanchez and the rug rats we've had running the farm here. We literally had John Beck throwing passes in San Nick NFL game. We had coaches get Shane Matthews and Danny Woeful to compete in camp. I do wish we had a higher value on lower round and undrafted QBs. 

 

We've had our share of servicanle backups over the years.  Colt, Keenum, Josh Johnson, Todd Collins, Kirk (for a phase), Kyle Allen -- they don't seem that hard to find.  

 

Spurrier's fun and gun QBs who already flammed out in the league previously and Beck weren't good.  But they were memorable because how exceptionally bad they were as opposed to who wasn't a John Beck in our QB room.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

[MartinC]

Interesting and balanced discussion about Howell here. 

 

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

As a shameless Howell supporter, I’d like to remind people of the mood here before the Dallas game. It was common group think that he would get killed.

 

He did not. He played well, although with some mistakes. He made some big throws. He made enough plays to win.

 

Is the sample size too small? Of course it is. But it’s “not nothing” either. 

[MartinC]

7 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

We've had our share of servicanle backups over the years.  Colt, Keenum, Josh Johnson, Todd Collins, Kirk (for a phase), Kyle Allen -- they don't seem that hard to find.  

 

Spurrier's fun and gun QBs who already flammed out in the league previously and Beck weren't good.  But they were memorable because how exceptionally bad they were as opposed to who wasn't a John Beck in our QB room.

You think John Beck was bad - you should have seen Cary Conklin ‘play’.

[wit33]

Ron going all in on Howell cements his legacy as “Riverboat Ron”.
 

His boldest move while here and combine that with the hiring of EB… I’m intrigued!! 

[FootballZombie]

1 hour ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

He made enough plays to win.

 

I don't think its even possible for anyone to make enough plays to win when you only complete 11 passes, your team runs the ball 40 times and your D pitches a net shutout. 

 

He didn't lose the game tho, or even come close for that matter, and that's a plus. Especially with the aforementioned thought process that he was doomed to be street pizza'd.

 

[wit33]

 

 

4 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

 

I don't think its even possible for anyone to make enough plays to win when you only complete 11 passes, your team runs the ball 40 times and your D pitches a net shutout. 

 

He didn't lose the game tho, or even come close for that matter, and that's a plus. Especially with the aforementioned thought process that he was doomed to be street pizza'd.

 

 

Displayed some arm strength and accuracy. His legs shined, which gives him easier access to competence.

[Going Commando]

Watched the second episode of Quarterback on Netflix, and it featured the Vikings game against us last year.  Allen and Payne murdered Kirk in that one.  The hit Payne put on him hurt him so bad, and that was after Payne pulled up and rolled off to the side at contact instead of hitting through him.

 

Easy to forget how brutal it is to play QB in the NFL.  They take a lot of the worst hits.  Also easy to overlook the impact of our DTs from where we sit.  Those two guys are feared.  We had one of the best and most brutal defenses last season, and that was without Chase and a good back seven.  We're about to have a special defense this year if we can have everyone healthy.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Koolblue13]

10 hours ago, wit33 said:

Ron going all in on Howell cements his legacy as “Riverboat Ron”.
 

His boldest move while here and combine that with the hiring of EB… I’m intrigued!! 

Ron didn't even want to play him last year, but Heinicke refused to go in and forced his hand. This offseason, nobody would come in as a clear starter.

 

Ol man riverboat hopped in the life boat and drifted out to sea and hired his buddy to stay on to be captain.

[Skinsinparadise]

24 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Ron didn't even want to play him last year, but Heinicke refused to go in and forced his hand. This offseason, nobody would come in as a clear starter.

 

Ol man riverboat hopped in the life boat and drifted out to sea and hired his buddy to stay on to be captain.

 

Yeah I'd add Ron just riding with the roster he has -- that's been his ammo his whole tenure.  Granted aside from QB where he's made some bad moves but I'll give him that he's made some moves.

 

i like Howell and am intrigued.  But Ron basically doing nothing much aside from riding the status quo fits his tenure, its just now bleeding into QB like it does for just about every other spot.

 

We really really need a LB the previous off season.  The answer is to do nothing aside from bringing back Bostic because heck Bostic knows our system.  And on 2nd thought they decided that Holcomb is really good.  Some rumbilings they'd make a major addtion at LB this year -- the answer is on 2nd thought we really liked how K. Hudson played in that last game.

 

O line is a code red spot according to Rivera and it derailed that season.  Weeks ago, he was asked about that spot and his response "they just need to stay healthy".  And made minor changes to upgrade the spot.

 

Ron riding with the status quo is the opposite of Riverboat Run.  He's a lets not rock the boat and see what we have in hand kind of guy -- which makes him as conservative as it gets.

Edited July 13, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[MrJL]

On 7/12/2023 at 9:29 AM, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

 

 

Howell's footwork improvements are common though. Marrying up feet to the drop on the play and then the read progression happens all the time. It may seem less likely as that's what Haskins always "worked on" but never improved. But that was just one bad prospect.

 

Haskins was only in the league three years before his death