The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Thinking Skins]

Looking at Carson last year and it seems like he got off to a similar slow start. I think he was sacked 10 times in the first 4 games. There were a lot of incomplete passes (38, 31, 37, 32). Looks like it took some time before he got things going on offense. How much of that was Carson vs Taylor I don't know, but things did get better.

[NickyJ]

I think describing people as playing like their hair is on fire is actually a spot-on description for playing erratically. If my hair was on fire, I'd probably give sub-optimal results at my work too. That's why Matt Hasselbeck is so severely underrated. I don't recall him having very many hair on fire moments, and that's probably because he had no hair.

Edited September 29, 2022 by NickyJ

[tomwvr]

54 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

I think describing people as playing like their hair is on fire is actually a spot-on description for playing erratically. If my hair was on fire, I'd probably give sub-optimal results at my work too. That's why Matt Hasselbeck is so severely underrated. I don't recall him having very many hair on fire moments, and that's probably because he had no hair.

Like i have said many times TH has 1 good game for every 3-4 bad games. And my only question is why spend 28 million on wentz who has a very high variance of play as well?

[Vandelay_Industries]

2 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

Looking at Carson last year and it seems like he got off to a similar slow start. I think he was sacked 10 times in the first 4 games. There were a lot of incomplete passes (38, 31, 37, 32). Looks like it took some time before he got things going on offense. How much of that was Carson vs Taylor I don't know, but things did get better.

 

He had an ankle injury in the 2nd game, which certainly didn't help either (he also missed the entire preseason due to foot surgery). We also have to realize that he's on a new team, in a much different system (just like with the Colts last season). 

 

The probably biggest problem I see for Wentz is the o-line. His style of play needs an at least solid pass protection to perform at his full potential and if he'd had that, I believe the Commanders could have a top 10 offense. But if that can't be solved, I'm afraid I'm not optimistic for this season. The only hope is that the pretty poor running game improves greatly with Brian Robinson.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Vandelay_Industries

[Jumbo]

There's once again some harsh critiquing of certain posting stances ahead so if you're sensitive to what you have read in recent posts of mine you may want to be prepared.🙂

 

Fanboyz and haterz. Next to pure trolls, they're the  bane of good debates. Those so afflicted are limited to low level mental operations on the relevant  matter and are typically wrapped in denial of their mental state on the topic.

 

On extremeskins they've always been around to dumb down qb discussions whenever you don't have a clear dominant #1 qb. 

 

We often used to corral them in their own threads (I.e. cult of colt) to limit or contain them, then we just started removing the worst spamming type from the relevant topic threads during the rg3ocd daze cuz they dumbed down the discussion insufferably and perpetually.

 

If hienie keeps coming up as a choice in your posts, no matter how you try to spin it or what your crippled "analysis" is, you're just being a fanboy based on a one time brief  freaky-streaky run in a multi year carrer that had landed him on his sister's couch, prior to clueless Ron's limited vision settling on him.

 

At the end of the day, he's been an essentially pointless distraction.

 

Ron has proven himself to be fairly incompetent football wise as a hc in multiple ways, inc navigating our qb needs in every qb move he's made---except for drafting Howell. And I have no confidence in how he and his staff will develop Howell.

 

Virtually no one here is an actual wentz fan or serious wentz booster. The intelligent people are just dealing with the ugly reality that we didn't (because of fo incompetence) and still don't have a smarter answer right now. On the roster now, only Howell is even a distant, possibly positive, option down the road.

 

Meanwhile, our o-line promises poor results for anyone in the position at this point. They are currently even a bigger problem than qb and not by a little. Hopefully that part will turn around a bit as they are truly underperforming even for their middle of the pack talent level.

 

Heinie is at the lower level of NFL backups in skillset.

 

Even Ron and co. are planning on parting ways with him as soon as (in their incompetent manner) they feel they have an option.  

 

If you're still mentioning heinie, the vast majority of your peers here are showing you they know the quality of what you're bringing to the table on this topic with their responses.

 

If you've been and still are a heinie booster you may read this and feel prompted to turn to that denial and dismissive defensive posture with the standard, very weak, arguments and rationalizations I've been reading.

 

But it's a kind of mental theatre, self-deluding or even just disingenuous sometimes,  that is obvious to a number of folks and severely lacking in validity from a quality argument perspective.

[tomwvr]

27 minutes ago, Jumbo said:

There's once again some harsh critiquing of certain posting stances ahead so if you're sensitive to what you have read in recent posts of mine you may want to be prepared.🙂

 

Fanboyz and haterz. Next to pure trolls, they're the  bane of good debates. Those so afflicted are limited to low level mental operations on the relevant  matter and are typically wrapped in denial of their mental state on the topic.

 

On extremeskins they've always been around to dumb down qb discussions whenever you don't have a clear dominant #1 qb. 

 

We often used to corral them in their own threads (I.e. cult of colt) to limit or contain them, then we just started removing the worst spamming type from the relevant topic threads during the rg3ocd daze cuz they dumbed down the discussion insufferably and perpetually.

 

If hienie keeps coming up as a choice in your posts, no matter how you try to spin it or what your crippled "analysis" is, you're just being a fanboy based on a one time brief  freaky-streaky run in a multi year carrer that had landed him on his sister's couch, prior to clueless Ron's limited vision settling on him.

 

At the end of the day, he's been an essentially pointless distraction.

 

Ron has proven himself to be fairly incompetent football wise as a hc in multiple ways, inc navigating our qb needs in every qb move he's made---except for drafting Howell. And I have no confidence in how he and his staff will develop Howell.

 

Virtually no one here is an actual wentz fan or serious wentz booster. The intelligent people are just dealing with the ugly reality that we didn't (because of fo incompetence) and still don't have a smarter answer right now. On the roster now, only Howell is even a distant, possibly positive, option down the road.

 

Meanwhile, our o-line promises poor results for anyone in the position at this point. They are currently even a bigger problem than qb and not by a little. Hopefully that part will turn around a bit as they are truly underperforming even for their middle of the pack talent level.

 

Heinie is at the lower level of NFL backups in skillset.

 

Even Ron and co. are planning on parting ways with him as soon as (in their incompetent manner) they feel they have an option.  

 

If you're still mentioning heinie, the vast majority of your peers here are showing you they know the quality of what you're bringing to the table on this topic with their responses.

 

If you've been and still are a heinie booster you may read this and feel prompted to turn to that denial and dismissive defensive posture with the standard, very weak, arguments and rationalizations I've been reading.

 

But it's a kind of mental theatre, self-deluding or even just disingenuous sometimes,  that is obvious to a number of folks and severely lacking in validity from a quality argument perspective.

Thanks for the write up - i like taylor as you know, but i am not at all saying he is the answer.  I just think that with wentz high variance play he was not worth the money and picks. And the team could have improved the ol with that 28 million and gone in the howell direction. And that if wentz continues to not lead the team to wins there would be no reason to play him after week 8-9. 
 

and i agree that taylor wont be on the roster next year, there is no reason to keep him if the team feels howell is the right way to go. 

[88Comrade2000]

I wonder what happened in Carolina that made him go in the opposite direction here?

 

He inherited a horrible team there was blessed with the #1 pick.  So, the first thing.  he did was draft a QB- Cam Newton.

 

2011- 6-10

2012- 7-9

2013- 12-4 won division

2014- 7-8-1 won division

2015- 15-1 won division, lost superbowl

2016- 6-10

2017- 11-5 

 

He made the playoffs 4 out of 5 years.  The reason for that success, he had a franchise QB. If Cam didn't get hurt, maybe his remaining Carolina story goes different and he may still be there.

 

I know we were hamstrung in 2020 having to give the owner's QB Haskins his shot and being stuck with Alex's guarantied salary. 

Ron should've told Dan that while he would give Dan's QB a shot, he had every intention of drafting a QB.  Arizona drafted QBs

in back to back drafts.  QB should've been his $#1 priority in the 2020 draft. Get the QB and build around the QB. When you

are in position to draft a QB; you do it.  That rookie QB- either Tua or Justin would've been on a rookie contract; so little cap

impact.   Can you imagine where would be now if we did that?

 

Ron did the opposite of what he did in Carolina.  So, he gets Carson this year. Well, Carson probably isn't going to last much

longer since the o-line is going to get him killed. His backup also wouldn't do good with this line either.  Was he fooled by last year?

 

Ron's a poor judge of talent.

 

[mistertim]

9 minutes ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

I wonder what happened in Carolina that made him go in the opposite direction here?

 

He inherited a horrible team there was blessed with the #1 pick.  So, the first thing.  he did was draft a QB- Cam Newton.

 

2011- 6-10

2012- 7-9

2013- 12-4 won division

2014- 7-8-1 won division

2015- 15-1 won division, lost superbowl

2016- 6-10

2017- 11-5 

 

He made the playoffs 4 out of 5 years.  The reason for that success, he had a franchise QB. If Cam didn't get hurt, maybe his remaining Carolina story goes different and he may still be there.

 

I know we were hamstrung in 2020 having to give the owner's QB Haskins his shot and being stuck with Alex's guarantied salary. 

Ron should've told Dan that while he would give Dan's QB a shot, he had every intention of drafting a QB.  Arizona drafted QBs

in back to back drafts.  QB should've been his $#1 priority in the 2020 draft. Get the QB and build around the QB. When you

are in position to draft a QB; you do it.  That rookie QB- either Tua or Justin would've been on a rookie contract; so little cap

impact.   Can you imagine where would be now if we did that?

 

Ron did the opposite of what he did in Carolina.  So, he gets Carson this year. Well, Carson probably isn't going to last much

longer since the o-line is going to get him killed. His backup also wouldn't do good with this line either.  Was he fooled by last year?

 

Ron's a poor judge of talent.

 

 

I think the issue with 2020 is that there wasn't a consensus top QB that they really liked who would be available. We know they were high on Burrow, but him going to Cincy was more or less guaranteed. That would leave Tua and Herbert. Apparently they weren't high on Tua because of his injuries and weren't especially high on Herbert. Obviously in that situation hindsight is 20/20 with Herbert, but he was definitely not universally seen as anything close to a lock to be any good. He had plenty of questions about how he'd translate into the NFL

 

We also had invested a 2019 1st rounder in Haskins, and it seemed like Ron and the coaches liked what they were hearing and seeing from Haskins at that point, so they wanted to give him a shot. Obviously that ended up being mostly smoke and mirrors, but I can understand them wanting to give him a shot if it seemed like he had started to take things seriously, because he had talent.

 

In 2021 Ron and the coaches reportedly wanted to move up for Fields, but they balked at the price. They also did their best to trade for a very good QB in Stafford, but it didn't work out.

 

So I wouldn't say it's necessarily fair to blame Ron too much for not having a stud QB yet. That's not me agreeing or disagreeing with your take on him not being a good judge of talent (IMO the jury is still very much out on that), just pointing out that he did seem to try.

[Daniel.redskins]

14 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

We also had invested a 2019 1st rounder in Haskins, and it seemed like Ron and the coaches liked what they were hearing and seeing from Haskins at that point, so they wanted to give him a shot.

Ron was just saying all the right things about Haskins but he didn't mean them. He benched him after only 4 games. Snyder hired Ron on the contingency that he would give Haskins a chance. I said back in 2020 that if Ron fails it's his own fault for starting a QB he didn't like just to please the owner. That #2 pick was so valuable and we should have taken Tua or Herbert. 

[Warhead36]

Remember in 2020 there was no mini camps or anything like that leading up to the draft. Also, Haskins did have a nice stretch of games to end the 2019 season and by all counts was working his butt off in the off season(remember all the pics of how shredded he was and how he dropped all his baby fat?). Unfortunately he didn't develop at all as an actual QB.

 

If there were mini camps and the like then I think its likely Rivera takes Tua or Herbert at 2 and tries to trade Haskins because he'd have seen first hand that he wasn't going to get it done. 

 

Oh well. Hindsight is 20/20 and at the time nobody was opposed to drafting Chase Young at 2. 

[The Rook]

Man, the 20/20 hindsight in here is blinding.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Rook 

[Cooleyfan1993]

20/20 hindsight…..

 

[mistertim]

41 minutes ago, Daniel.redskins said:

Ron was just saying all the right things about Haskins but he didn't mean them. He benched him after only 4 games. Snyder hired Ron on the contingency that he would give Haskins a chance. I said back in 2020 that if Ron fails it's his own fault for starting a QB he didn't like just to please the owner. That #2 pick was so valuable and we should have taken Tua or Herbert. 

 

I think it's possible that you're right, but as @Warhead36noted, that was the COVID year when there weren't any in-person meetings or early camps. So there were brand new coaches and all they could really go on at first was what they saw the players seeming to do remotely.

 

I tend to believe they did genuinely like how Haskins appeared to be going about things, but that inclination probably went the way of the dodo very quickly once things were in person and it was clear that it was mostly fluff.

 

And of course we probably would have taken Herbert if we could go back and do it over. Just like we'd take Aaron Rodgers at 9 in 2005 or whoever else in some other draft. But as I said, Herbert was not seen as some sort of blue chip can't miss prospect, and Tua had tons of injury concerns. So given those facts and that Haskins seemed to be working hard, I can understand them going with a safe pick like Chase at #2.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[zCommander]

2 hours ago, mistertim said:

 I can understand them going with a safe pick like Chase at #2.

 

I guess they could have traded back couple of spots and still get Herbert and pickup some picks in the process. But then again they weren't thinking QB at all or else they would have done that. Too bad though. 

 

Edited September 30, 2022 by zCommander

[ClaytoAli]

26 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

Nope, not a lion. More like Moto Moto.

[stoshuaj]

1 hour ago, zCommander said:

 

I guess they could have traded back couple of spots and still get Herbert and pickup some picks in the process. But then again they weren't thinking QB at all or else they would have done that. Too bad though. 

 

The problem w that is, he would have come here and not be the Herbert that we know of today.  He would have been the QB for this frigging franchise and we all know how that turns out…….not well.  Good on him for not ending up here.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

Carson Wentz is what he is at this point. He’ll take sacks and make inaccurate passes. He’ll have great throws and big stat days that’ll lead to wins. Been that way basically since day one. Unfortunately, the injuries have sapped his athleticism so his ceiling is probably 12th-16th QB in the league. For a team trying to mediocre like us, that’ll work for 2 years. 
 

But seriously though, we as fans have to come to terms with this being who he is. It won’t improve and I don’t see it getting much worse. He’s literally a roller coaster. You’re banking on more highs than lows and I’d argue he’s done that through most of his career but not by much of course. 

[zCommander]

53 minutes ago, stoshuaj said:

The problem w that is, he would have come here and not be the Herbert that we know of today.  He would have been the QB for this frigging franchise and we all know how that turns out…….not well.  Good on him for not ending up here.

 

I don't understand this logic. So all the good QBs should go to other teams and we should stay miserable?

Are we supposed to become fans of other teams as well?

[Jabbyrwock]

6 minutes ago, zCommander said:

I don't understand this logic.

 

theorem 1: Quarterbacks that come to this team will end up sucking

    proof: see history

 

observation:  Herbert is a quarterback

By theorem 1 if Herbert came to the team, Herbert would end up sucking.

 

corollary: I drink

 

...really its just math.

 

 

 

[stoshuaj]

1 hour ago, zCommander said:

 

I don't understand this logic. So all the good QBs should go to other teams and we should stay miserable?

Are we supposed to become fans of other teams as well?

Nooooo, well not really.  I’m saying Herbert is a good qb at least partially because he didn’t come here.  All the good QBs in the world can come here but any expectation that they stay that way should be tempered and the expectation that any good qb somewhere else would have been just as successful here is….precious. 
 

I don’t recall advising anyone what they are “supposed” to do.  🤷‍♂️ 

[NoCalMike]

I totally get and agree with the fact that some of those sacks were on Wentz, but lets say half of them were on the O-line, so that means they gave up 4-5 sacks on their own merit, now just those 4-5 sacks alone, combined with however many hits Wentz took after throwing the ball, combined with all the times he was hurried, and you are telling me that isn't going to effect a QB the rest of the game.  When they know well before snapping the ball that they are likely a sitting duck, it is going to make them erratic.  It'd be one thing if the O-line gave up 4 sacks but otherwise played a clean game, but that wasn't the case.

[zCommander]

6 hours ago, stoshuaj said:

Nooooo, well not really.  I’m saying Herbert is a good qb at least partially because he didn’t come here.  All the good QBs in the world can come here but any expectation that they stay that way should be tempered and the expectation that any good qb somewhere else would have been just as successful here is….precious. 
 

I don’t recall advising anyone what they are “supposed” to do.  🤷‍♂️ 

 

I think the only QB we can compare is Kirk. He has been the same, maybe a little better, with Minny. But I still think if we get a good QB in the draft he can still be a legit franchise QB here too. I am hoping it will be different with Ron. Not a lot of hope but some at least since his track record with Cam Newton. Howell was projected to go higher so we have him. I am intrigued to see what he can do if we don't end up drafting another QB in 2023. 

 

Sorry was being cynical on the let's go root for some other team since they got a better QB.

 

 

Edited September 30, 2022 by zCommander

[zCommander]

 

 

[DJHJR86]

For some reason, the media have an disdain for Wentz that is unlike anything I've ever seen.  I just saw a clip from some dumb ESPN show where they are debating the best quarterback in the NFC East and Max Kellerman brings up Wentz, and then says something like "I'm kidding but he won't be a starting quarterback for long".  Meanwhile, Justin Fields is playing the absolute worst I have ever seen a quarterback play in a long time and he's rarely mentioned by the media, and if he is, it's excuse after excuse for his poor play.  It's baffling to me.  Wentz isn't a bad guy.  He isn't even a poor teammate.  And it can't be solely because he plays for Washington.  Alex Smith wasn't treated like this.  Neither was Case Keenum.  Hell, Heinicke was treated as feel good story when he started.