The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[kingdaddy]

23 minutes ago, stoshuaj said:

What would you lead you to believe that Howell, a 5th round draft pick with a half-ass camp, relatively zero 1st team reps, behind this sieve of an O-line, to be anywhere close to ready in a manner that wouldn’t actually be more likely to be detrimental to his potential for success?

Nothing. That's why I clarified it with "if he's ready". For arguments sake, we wouldn't be the first team to throw a rookie out there behind a balky offensive line. Look at all the teams that did it with 1st round picks last season. At least Howell has some wheels and can protect himself that way. If we're gonna find out if Howell is our future then we're gonna probably have to throw him out there at some point, assuming Wentz doesn't turn things around. 

I don't think these coaches will put Howell in unless they have to but I can see it happening in December of a lost season if it comes to that. 

[zCommander]

27 minutes ago, mistertim said:

Can you at least entertain the possibility that one of the main reasons Fitz got the nod over Heinicke is that Fitz is just a better QB? It's weird that you seem to basically be dismissing that possibility.

 

This sort of stuff is why nobody believes you when you say you're "impartial" about QBs.

 

I don't think I said Fitz wasn't. I was actually looking forward to see what Fitz could do for us after the season he had the year before. I was actually excited. Fitzmagic and all!

 

See here:

 

 

[bowhunter]

I like TH, but didn't Scary Terry say that one reason he re-signed was the fact because we signed Wentz?

[tomwvr]

Yes he did, said it was a huge reason.

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

It’s week 4.

 

They are not and should not be looking to play any other QB than Wentz.  We are nowhere near the marker that determines a 2nd/3rd round pick.

 

 

I think we can go to week 8-9 and if wentz still is sucking air. Its then time to move on from him. The marker is 70 percent of snaps.

[tomwvr]

53 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

There's absolutely no chance they replace Wentz with Heinicke unless Wentz is injured. None. They were desperate for the last 2 seasons to find someone to replace TH. They clearly don't think he's a starting caliber NFL QB.

 

I think they'll roll with Wentz for the season, barring injury. Howell is talented but likely not ready yet, and Heinicke is a pure backup who's ok in spot duty but not as a long term starter.

 

 

Can you at least entertain the possibility that one of the main reasons Fitz got the nod over Heinicke is that Fitz is just a better QB? It's weird that you seem to basically be dismissing that possibility.

 

This sort of stuff is why nobody believes you when you say you're "impartial" about QBs.

If wentz has a 2-3 interception first half and is getting destroyed in the pocket, I could see them sitting him in the second half of a game . And still playing him as the starter the next week.  
Would you want a mobile qb in taylor or howell in in that type of game?
 

[stoshuaj]

39 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

 If we're gonna find out if Howell is our future then we're gonna probably have to throw him out there at some point

I don't think these coaches will put Howell in unless they have to but I can see it happening in December of a lost season if it comes to that. 

If he is “the future” throwing him out there into this ****show isn’t the way to find out but more likely to damn sure be a detriment to his potential for growth.  Call me a cynic but, he ain’t Tom Brady……

[zCommander]

14 minutes ago, bowhunter said:

I like TH, but didn't Scary Terry say that one reason he re-signed was the fact because we signed Wentz?

 

Yes. Terry believed a QB with a stronger arm can push the ball downfield more but at the moment Terry seems concerned. 

 

He has not had a catch in the first quarter of a game, and has just one in the second quarter.

Wednesday morning he sat down with offensive coordinator Scott Turner to discuss what could be done. McLaurin said they discussed the need to get the team’s playmakers involved, but also the importance of establishing the run game early to set up play-action plays, which have not been effective so far this year.

 

“Anytime I can try to impact the game as early as possible, that’s what I want to do,” McLaurin said. “And I think Coach Turner and Carson know that as well, but at the same time, those plays don’t necessarily come up as early as you would want. As for myself, I just try to stay prepared for when those plays do come up, and control what I can control.

 

“I feel like every receiver kind of just wants the ball as many times as they want, me included. But at the same time, I really care about winning, too.”

https://richmond.com/sports/professional/first-cowboys-commanders-clash-a-big-one-for-washington-which-will-wear-all-black-as/article_e5837da9-598d-545e-aed2-c9930a61df47.html#tracking-source=home-top-story

[mistertim]

14 minutes ago, tomwvr said:

If wentz has a 2-3 interception first half and is getting destroyed in the pocket, I could see them sitting him in the second half of a game . And still playing him as the starter the next week.  
Would you want a mobile qb in taylor or howell in in that type of game?
 

 

What they might might gain in some mobility in Heinicke would IMO be offset by the fact that he doesn't have the arm to make some throws so they'd have to pare down the playbook for him. A combination of having to limit the play calls plus likely having the other team blowing up your OL would make for a miserable day. The defense would also pin their ears back even more and sit on the shallow stuff because they would know Heinicke couldn't really challenge them deep.

 

I see little to no upside there vs sticking with Wentz, even if he's having a bad day.

 

I also think Heinicke's mobility is oversold a bit. He's got some mobility but he's hardly a Josh Allen or Russell Wilson. He also seemed very hesitant to scramble much last season...so much so that the coaches basically called him out publicly on it. Would that change if he had another chance? Who knows. But then his durability would likely come back into play because he'd be taking more hits.

Edited September 29, 2022 by mistertim

[goskins10]

21 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Yeah me too.   I want a definitive answer.  It would bother me to no end for example for the Giants to grab a franchise QB in this draft and we skip it because we think "maybe" as to Wentz.

 

As far as Howell goes I like him but not to the extent that I'd bypass a QB in this draft if they draft high. 

 

I agree 100%. I still have hope for Carson and Scott. But I do not want middle of the road - well we think.... at the end of the season. If Carson is the guy, then fine. Anything else is a no. Howell may develop into something long term but more likely he is a really nice back-up who makes a good career for himself but never is THE guy. Maybe not. Maybe he turns out to be great. But if we are picking top 3 or 4 I would not pass a top QB prospect on the chance Howell develops. Nothing wrong with having two. 

 

I am leaning towards the oline is the major issue here. Injuries and lack of depth (yes Ron owns that one). I still think Ron can get it done but not sure why they choose to drop a lot of depth without really replacing them with anyone. Were they hedging thier bets on if Carson busts? I would have rather given him as many weapons and the best team they could around him then he at least gets a fair shake. 

 

The Oline still surprises me. Matsko did an amazing job last year. Did he sign off on the lack of depth? Or was it thrust upon him? We potentially get B Robinson and Chase back in week 5 against the Titans. That seems like it would really help. Losing my enthusiasm - well I guess you can't lose what you never had so NM. 

Edited September 29, 2022 by goskins10

[Warhead36]

8 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

 

 

I also think Heinicke's mobility is oversold a bit. He's got some mobility but he's hardly a Josh Allen or Russell Wilson. He also seemed very hesitant to scramble much last season...so much so that the coaches basically called him out publicly on it. Would that change if he had another chance? Who knows. But then his durability would likely come back into play because he'd be taking more hits.

Thank you. People act like he's Lamar Jackson or something. You can't actually build a game plan around his legs. He can move around sure, he might be slightly above average in terms of quickness/mobility but he's not really fast and he has absolutely NO size which means anytime he gets hit he's way  more likely than anyone else to get dinged up.

 

Heinicke is not a viable NFL QB option. He just isn't. People need to deal with it.

[zCommander]

8 minutes ago, mistertim said:

I see little to no upside there vs sticking with Wentz, even if he's having a bad day.

 

In your estimate how many bad days does Wentz need to have before you would like them to switch over to Howell or TH?

[Redwards]

13 hours ago, mistertim said:

Mariota or Trubisky would have cost less than Wentz, but they're also both 1st round draft busts who haven't ever shown themselves to be more than backups in the NFL and have little to no upside. Wentz on the other hand has shown himself capable of being a top tier QB in the past. That doesn't mean he'll ever be there again, but at least we know he has that potential.

 

To be honest, I probably would have just preferred to stick with Heinicke and secured a top draft pick in 2023 instead of paying for shlubs like Trubs or Mariota, though that was clearly not an option for the coaches and FO.

I agree 1,000,000%.

 

And that is exactly why this franchise will continue to fail.  Because they won't do what is truly, honestly necessary.  They're alway doing the band-aid thing and taking the most narrow path to success there is in an attempt to hold onto what remaining fans there are.

 

Would the fans have been pissed if we had just held onto Taylor as the guy for another season and not drafted a QB?  Absolutely.  But so what?  THAT was the smartest strategy long-term.  If a QB isn't there in the coming draft that you truly believe can be the answer, don't draft him.  Period. Ride it out another year and stock up on depth - something that this team has precious little of even after three freaking years of Ron's building.  

 

But neither Ron nor Dan "has the patience for a rebuild" (even though the way Ron is going through things, it is absolutely a rebuild, save for the QB situation).  So we end up, yet again, with the narrowest path to success by trading for a QB who couldn't get it done in two previous stops.  But we, the superior QB machine franchise that we are, can make a SB champion out of him.  Yeah.  Right.  

 

Until we have the nerds to truly do what is right in building this team for the long-term success Ron professes to want, we're never even going to give ourselves a legit chance of going anywhere.   Round and round we go....

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

9 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

In your estimate how many bad days does Wentz need to have before you would like them to switch over to Howell or TH?

If Carson doesn’t work out, the season is lost.  The time to make a decision is right around the time he’s approaching the 70% snap possibility.  There is no legitimate reason to put in TH or Howell prior to that point for any reason other than injury.  It’s Wentz or bust.

[Redwards]

2 hours ago, kingdaddy said:

Reading all of the past several posts, if we lose on Sunday and Wentz looks just as bad as he did this past week, I wonder how a poll of the folks on this site would play out if you asked everyone who they'd like to see start game 5 at QB between Wentz, TH and Howell?

There are so many variables to this that it's really a challenging question moving forward:

- Have we seen enough of CW to know he's not the answer

- Could we ruin Howell if we throw him in too soon? 

- Do we need to find out about Howell heading into next years draft? 

- Do we play Wentz regardless and risk losing our 2nd round pick next season?

- Is the QB play holding this team back from reaching it's potential?

- Is the offensive line really this bad or is the QB making them look worse than they really are?

- Can Wentz recover from a 1-3 start and lead the team to the playoffs? 

- Does TH's knowledge of the offense make him worth a try over the struggling Wentz?

- Will RR be too worried about Wentz psyche to risk pulling him for one of the other QB's?

- What do the players think?

Another bad loss this Sunday, which I'm expecting, and we may be reaching the point of having to address many of these questions moving forward. I keep going back to Frank Reich and Wentz in Indy; no one had more faith in being able to save Wentz then Frank Reich did and they blew the playoffs when some thought they were one of the more dangerous teams in the AFC at one point. If Reich couldn't save Wentz how can RR and Turner? 

Yep.

 

This franchise is a QB wrecking machine.  We ruin quarterback's careers, not resuscitate them.  

[mistertim]

7 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

In your estimate how many bad days does Wentz need to have before you would like them to switch over to Howell or TH?

 

As I said, I see pretty much no upside in switching to Heinicke, regardless. What slight mobility edge he might have over Wentz he loses with his lack of physical ability. He also loses the advantage of not being game planned for pretty quickly as well. Teams have plenty of tape on him now and know how to shut him down. So while TH might have a spark if he comes in during the middle of a game, he'll lose that as soon as he's named a starter for the next game.

 

To me swapping a struggling Wentz for Heinicke would basically be like replacing a flat tire with a flat spare.

 

As far as Howell, I wouldn't be against seeing what he can do, the caveat being if the coaches think he's ready. I also wouldn't want to throw him out there behind a crap OL and get him shell shocked this early for little to no gain. But if Wentz is seriously struggling and the coaches think Howell is ready and they can protect him reasonably well then it would be cool to see how he adjusts.

[zCommander]

2 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

As I said, I see pretty much no upside in switching to Heinicke, regardless. What slight mobility edge he might have over Wentz he loses with his lack of physical ability. He also loses the advantage of not being game planned for pretty quickly as well. Teams have plenty of tape on him now and know how to shut him down. So while TH might have a spark if he comes in during the middle of a game, he'll lose that as soon as he's named a starter for the next game.

 

To me swapping a struggling Wentz for Heinicke would basically be like replacing a flat tire with a flat spare.

 

As far as Howell, I wouldn't be against seeing what he can do, the caveat being if the coaches think he's ready. I also wouldn't want to throw him out there behind a crap OL and get him shell shocked this early for little to no gain. But if Wentz is seriously struggling and the coaches think Howell is ready and they can protect him reasonably well then it would be cool to see how he adjusts.

 

At least we agree on one thing. Howell over TH. Hell even if Howell is somewhat ready. I rather see the growing pains with him any day and hope for a brighter future.

[tomwvr]

36 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

What they might might gain in some mobility in Heinicke would IMO be offset by the fact that he doesn't have the arm to make some throws so they'd have to pare down the playbook for him. A combination of having to limit the play calls plus likely having the other team blowing up your OL would make for a miserable day. The defense would also pin their ears back even more and sit on the shallow stuff because they would know Heinicke couldn't really challenge them deep.

 

I see little to no upside there vs sticking with Wentz, even if he's having a bad day.

 

I also think Heinicke's mobility is oversold a bit. He's got some mobility but he's hardly a Josh Allen or Russell Wilson. He also seemed very hesitant to scramble much last season...so much so that the coaches basically called him out publicly on it. Would that change if he had another chance? Who knows. But then his durability would likely come back into play because he'd be taking more hits.

What about howell? He is very moble and putting him in a game that is a no matter what happens in his game to affect the outcome would give him some real in game time

[tomwvr]

40 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

What they might might gain in some mobility in Heinicke would IMO be offset by the fact that he doesn't have the arm to make some throws so they'd have to pare down the playbook for him. A combination of having to limit the play calls plus likely having the other team blowing up your OL would make for a miserable day. The defense would also pin their ears back even more and sit on the shallow stuff because they would know Heinicke couldn't really challenge them deep.

 

I see little to no upside there vs sticking with Wentz, even if he's having a bad day.

 

I also think Heinicke's mobility is oversold a bit. He's got some mobility but he's hardly a Josh Allen or Russell Wilson. He also seemed very hesitant to scramble much last season...so much so that the coaches basically called him out publicly on it. Would that change if he had another chance? Who knows. But then his durability would likely come back into play because he'd be taking more hits.

Im not worried about durability. He made it last season getting hit in games.

However his arm limitations are what concerns me. The only time he wins a game is when he puts it all together and plays like his hair is on fire. And that is 1 out of every 4-5 games. So again my question is if wentz continues to suck do we go to howell or taylor after week 8-9 ? Or do we let wentz play all season and give up a 2 over a 3?

42 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Thank you. People act like he's Lamar Jackson or something. You can't actually build a game plan around his legs. He can move around sure, he might be slightly above average in terms of quickness/mobility but he's not really fast and he has absolutely NO size which means anytime he gets hit he's way  more likely than anyone else to get dinged up.

 

Heinicke is not a viable NFL QB option. He just isn't. People need to deal with it.

Who is saying he is more than a back up? 

[mistertim]

14 minutes ago, tomwvr said:

What about howell? He is very moble and putting him in a game that is a no matter what happens in his game to affect the outcome would give him some real in game time

 

I'd like to see what Howell can do, but I'm not sure he's ready. However, if the coaches think he is (and, very importantly, they believe they can protect him a bit) then I'd be good with it. I still doubt it happens, even if Wentz is playing poorly. They've been pretty clear that they're fine with taking a bit of time to develop Howell.

 

7 minutes ago, tomwvr said:

Im not worried about durability. He made it last season getting hit in games.

However his arm limitations are what concerns me. The only time he wins a game is when he puts it all together and plays like his hair is on fire. And that is 1 out of every 4-5 games. So again my question is if wentz continues to suck do we go to howell or taylor after week 8-9 ? Or do we let wentz play all season and give up a 2 over a 3?

Who is saying he is more than a back up? 

 

His durability is still a legit concern, IMO. He didn't get hit as much last season because he didn't scramble and run as much. He was clearly very hesitant to do so a lot of the time. If he got another shot and went YOLO and started running a bunch, I think the durability thing could come back into play very quickly.

 

I really just don't see the purpose of putting Heinicke in. As others have noted, if Wentz is struggling it basically means the season is lost. Neither Heinicke nor Howell are going to come in and make us a winner. The only point I could maybe see is trying to not have to spend a 2nd vs a 3rd. But if they do that it means they're absolutely positively not going into next season with Wentz, because that's basically an immediate bridge burner at that point.

[zCommander]

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

 

What they might might gain in some mobility in Heinicke would IMO be offset by the fact that he doesn't have the arm to make some throws so they'd have to pare down the playbook for him. A combination of having to limit the play calls plus likely having the other team blowing up your OL would make for a miserable day. The defense would also pin their ears back even more and sit on the shallow stuff because they would know Heinicke couldn't really challenge them deep.

 

I see little to no upside there vs sticking with Wentz, even if he's having a bad day.

 

I also think Heinicke's mobility is oversold a bit. He's got some mobility but he's hardly a Josh Allen or Russell Wilson. He also seemed very hesitant to scramble much last season...so much so that the coaches basically called him out publicly on it. Would that change if he had another chance? Who knows. But then his durability would likely come back into play because he'd be taking more hits.

 

Okay maybe not Josh Allen but have you seen Wilson lately? Damn he looks bad. Maybe even worse than Wentz. 

 

I think it was Califan who said with the current state of the OL, TH would be better fit because he can throw quicker shorter passes more accurately than Wentz. Right now long developing plays are not working with Wentz because he doesn't have the time to throw them.

 

I don't' think the opposing D are worried too much about Wentz right now since they know our OL won't give him enough time to throw them deep passes anyway. 

 

Taylor's durability? He seemed pretty good last year after being dropped on the same shoulder twice in the playoff game. Even did the pylon dive too last year, for a TD. I would say he is probably even better now with all the conditioning and working out in the offseason. 

 

At times, last year, yes Taylor didn't scramble when he had the chance and I hated that. I thought that was his bread and butter but for whatever reason he was being conservative. Maybe didn't want to get hurt and be out of the game and wanted to play as long as he could in effort to try to make a name for himself regardless of what people thought of his QB play. Can't blame the guy for trying though. 

 

Edited September 29, 2022 by zCommander

[Warhead36]

Henicke's accuracy is awful. Do we forget how often he kept airmailing our receivers?

 

There is nothing he does better than Wentz except being a little bit quicker/more elusive. I don't want to hear non sense like "moxie" or "gritty" either because that's non quantifiable garbage.

[zCommander]

41 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Henicke's accuracy is awful. Do we forget how often he kept airmailing our receivers?

 

There is nothing he does better than Wentz except being a little bit quicker/more elusive. I don't want to hear non sense like "moxie" or "gritty" either because that's non quantifiable garbage.

 

I thought he was more accurate on shorter throws last year though. The longer ones, yeah, some were really bad. 

 

Edited September 29, 2022 by zCommander

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

28 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Henicke's accuracy is awful. Do we forget how often he kept airmailing our receivers?

 

There is nothing he does better than Wentz except being a little bit quicker/more elusive. I don't want to hear non sense like "moxie" or "gritty" either because that's non quantifiable garbage.

That and “hair on fire”. 😭

 

As if he has some button he can press to set his hair on fire and activate legit QB mode.

 

I get it, he at times has shown the ability to squirt out of trouble and find a receiver on a broken play.  But Kyler Murray he is not, nor is that a consistent way to win games in this league.

[NewCliche21]

34 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Henicke's accuracy is awful. Do we forget how often he kept airmailing our receivers?

 

There is nothing he does better than Wentz except being a little bit quicker/more elusive. I don't want to hear non sense like "moxie" or "gritty" either because that's non quantifiable garbage.

 

Yeah I love Heinicke's performance in the playoffs and a couple other games, but god he was NOT good. Like, bad.

[mistertim]

51 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

Okay maybe not Josh Allen but have you seen Wilson lately? Damn he looks bad. Maybe even worse than Wentz. 

 

I think it was Califan who said with the current state of the OL, TH would be better fit because he can throw quicker shorter passes more accurately than Wentz. Right now long developing plays are not working with Wentz because he doesn't have the time to throw them.

 

I don't' think the opposing D are worried too much about Wentz right now since they know our OL won't give him enough time to throw them deep passes anyway. 

 

Taylor's durability? He seemed pretty good last year after being dropped on the same shoulder twice in the playoff game. Even did the pylon dive too last year, for a TD. I would say he is probably even better now with all the conditioning and working out in the offseason. 

 

At times, last year, yes Taylor didn't scramble when he had the chance and I hated that. I thought that was his bread and butter but for whatever reason he was being conservative. Maybe didn't want to get hurt and be out of the game and wanted to play as long as he could in effort to try to make a name for himself regardless of what people thought of his QB play. Can't blame the guy for trying though. 

 

 

I get where you're coming from, but the problem is that there's a huge difference between throwing quicker and shorter passes because the defense is being aggressive and that's what they're giving you, and throwing quicker and shorter passes because that's all you can do.

 

With the former situation it can work, because the defense will then have to relax a bit and try to stop you from moving the chains so much. But they also won't be able to completely sell out to stop the short stuff because they know you can potentially punish them by stretching the field. Brady is a master at that sort of chess game.

 

With the latter situation, the team can stay aggressive and just sell out to stop the short stuff because they know you can't really stretch the field much.

 

So again I think Heinicke's weaknesses make his strengths somewhat moot, especially when a team can game plan for him.

 

And no, I don't necessarily blame TH for not running as much and trying to prolong his shot at being a NFL starter. But it's a bit of a catch-22  because it was mostly his running/scrambling ability that made him somewhat successful in the first place.