Next Day Thread (Same Day Edition): The Team vs. Chargers

[Warhead36]

I'm curious if we were worse in man or zone. Watching the game I felt like when we went man we did better. I mean we still gave up plays, but at least our guys were close and it came down to Herbert having to make tremendous throws(which to his credit he did). When we ran zone guys were just wide open. Either way we weren't getting a consistent pass rush so it likely doesn't matter, but all off season all we heard was about how we were going to play more tight press man but we seemed to resort to going zone on every big 3rd down and it cost us.

[Chris 44]

50 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

Trying to figure out what Holcomb was doing here (yeah I know hindsight 20/20, ive never played linebacker etc.).

 

He is looking into the backfield, the handoff to the RB is a fake (so I can see the slight hesitation, but it should not freeze him that much), then the motion guy runs wide, no one out there wide, Holcomb either doesnt see it or he thinks its someone else's man? Continues to focus on Herbert.

The left outside backer looks to initially track but stops, though he picks up the RB as he heads out to the defensive left which makes me believe the left outside LB played it correctly.

Thoughts?

Edited September 13, 2021 by Chris 44

[NoCalMike]

Like the footage in the previous reply showed, everyone jumping on Del Rio for the scheme I think is a bit misguided, now that isn't to say there is no valid criticism of his to be had (I'll get to that in a second) but zone coverage is not some kind of out there weird experimental stuff in the NFL, right?  Lots of teams use it and very successfully so.  The problem in the game yesterday that the actual film shows is not a schematic issue, it's the players themselves making errors in the scheme, missing assignments, being in the wrong place on passing plays etc etc etc.....on that last 3rd & 16 conversion by the Chargers (final drive of the game) Bostic is supposed to stay in the middle, in the peripheral of where the QB is trying to go with the ball.  Instead he sort of just floats around with no direction and eventually takes off towards the sideline to cover a WR who even if they catch the ball, is going to be stopped well short of the 1st down.  So he basically vacates the area he is assigned to leaving a wide open passing play to the WR and because of the passing lane, the ball is delivered without defenders close enough around to make the tackle before the WR falls over the 1st down marker line.  That has nothing to do with a bad scheme or "omg zone defense sucks" and 100% to do with players not staying and covering the areas of the field that the assignment calls for.

 

Now, with all that said, allow me to give some criticism to Del Rio in the form of maybe not designing the scheme around the abilities of the players we have on the roster.  So look, Davis is a rookie, he is going to make mistakes, but ideally his physical athleticism and abilities suggest that he is a good MLB for a zone coverage defense....or at least will be eventually once he learns the scheme and grows confidence and trust.  However, Holcomb and Bostic ARE NOT.  They do not have the quickness, speed, or physical athleticism to get out there and cover the way you really need linebackers to do in this kind of scheme.  So, if I am going to criticize Del Rio for anything, it's not that he employs zone coverage, because 3rd & long is actually the most ideal time to allow completions to happen, by having players in position to make tackles before a 1st down coversion, but what gets me frustrated is when we have an entire season's worth of film on Holcomb & Bostic (also all the NFL O-coordinators have this same film) that show they are too sloooooow to help in these coverage, yet there doesn't seem to be much adjusting or substituting for these obvious passing down to maybe get some of the depth who not overall be better players but can maybe help out in these specific downs & distances.

 

Ok wow that was way more long winded than I expected it to be.

[Skinsinparadise]

Thomas was for 19 snaps as an inline TE, at least by PFF standards he blocked well in terms of pass blocking.

 

 

Edited September 13, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

Kneejerk reactions:

-Scherff walks in free agency and Cosmi gets moved inside.  OT is a big need in 2022 draft, but IOL is great.

-Offensive gameplan looked worse than last year.  We did more backfield misdirection last year, but this year is the basic minimum motions to tell if it's man/zone pre-snap.

-Defensive gameplan was a disaster.  Just seemed like a fundamental misunderstanding of what our players can do, and what the opponent wants to do.

-Either the Chargers roster is better than I thought or the WFT roster is worse than I thought.  I'm leaning towards our roster being worse.

 

Problems:

LB's played 100%, 84%, and 56% of the defensive snaps.  We were in a 4-3 for half the game?

Safeties played 85%, 80%, and 46% of the snaps.  Some of those would be Buffalo Nickel too.

 

Against a team that wants to pass all day long, why did we have our slower units out there?  Seriously, their TE's can't block, they're basically large receivers, and the Chargers were in 11 personnel most of the day too.  But...we didn't adjust our personnel?

 

Silver Lining:

We lost by 4 points.  We had numerous opportunities to win the game but couldn't.  Chargers were the better team, yet it came down to the 4th quarter.  A 'W' was achievable despite looking like a shell of what the team should be?  If this team gets it together, it should be much better.

[PartyPosse]

22 hours ago, KDawg said:

All the Heinie fans upon hearing Fitz is out for a while.

[NoCalMike]

I know the defense didn't look good stats-wise, but realistically most people I know who were picking WFT to win still expected the Charges to score around 21-24 points, so regardless of how good you think our defense was going to be versus how good they were against the Chargers, they gave up about as many points as expected.  The issue is the offense only scoring 16 points. 

 

16 points is not going to win many games in the NFL without the help of the 2000 Ravens or 1985 Bears defense.  That is just a fact.  The way offenses are built now, even good defenses struggle to contain them.   Throw everything we think we know about football out of the window and just realize WFT wins this game if they can manage to score 21 points which in today's NFL is not some gigantic feat. (shouldn't be, I mean)

 

It's only 1 game, against a pretty solid team, so I don't want to overreact or make these big sweeping judgements about the team right now, however, we tend to fall into this trap of blaming the defense because they fail to be super dominant every week, when in the back of our minds we know very well that if the offense was worth a lick, that the defense in turn would  likely look a lot better, because all things considered, the defense does *enough* most weeks (counting last season) that any kind of decent offense should score plenty to achieve a winning record, however because the offense seems to be in a constant state of stuck in neutral, the bi-product is putting so much of our attention on the defense having to shut every single thing down on their of the ball that it simply becomes unrealistic. 

Edited September 13, 2021 by NoCalMike

[max21]

Lol damn this is kinda funny tho, Slater has Young’s number that’s for damn sure 

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

 

Sooo why did we barely pass yesterday?  Felt like the coaches thought there were major weaknesses to the Chargers run D.  But then never adjusted?

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

2 hours ago, NoCalMike said:

 

I know the defense didn't look good stats-wise, but realistically most people I know who were picking WFT to win still expected the Charges to score around 21-24 points, so regardless of how good you think our defense was going to be versus how good they were against the Chargers, they gave up about as many points as expected.  The issue is the offense only scoring 16 points

 

 

I get what you are saying in relation to being conditioned to blaming the defense.  Historically speaking, I know we as fans have been guilty of this.  But specific to this game, our defense let the Chargers run 78 plays, dominate time of possession and convert a near record 14 of 19 3rd downs.  That is humiliating.  The actual score doesn’t tell the whole story of this game.  The Chargers had self inflicted wounds that prevented them from scoring more.  The defense or lack thereof was dreadful this week anyway you chop it up.

[NoCalMike]

3 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

I get what you are saying in relation to being conditioned to blaming the defense.  Historically speaking, I know we as fans have been guilty of this.  But specific to this game, our defense let the Chargers run 78 plays, dominate time of possession and convert a near record 14 of 19 3rd downs.  That is humiliating.  The actual score doesn’t tell the whole story of this game.  The Chargers had self inflicted wounds that prevented them from scoring more.  The defense or lack thereof was dreadful this week anyway you chop it up.

 

Oh I agree with what you are saying, but I guess I could flip that and say it's week 1, teams will be sloppy in their execution sometimes, and the Chargers were sloppy enough to give us plenty of chances to build on the lead.  Reminds me of the Week 1 against Pittsburgh on MNF I think coming off one of Kirk Cousins playoff seasons here.  Pittsburgh was easily the better team but they were so disorganized and sloppy for the first half, we kept ending up with the ball and could only manage a couple of field goals, and the Steelers slowly got their football legs back and turned the game around, never looked back.  

 

I still look at our offense and glare in the direction of Scott Turner a lot.  I think he a lot of the fundamentals in his scheme build off his father's and because Norv was the O-coordinator for 2 super bowl offenses (maybe all 3 of the Cowboys?) he will justify this bygone era scheme until he is forced out of the league eventually. 

[IrepDC]

10 hours ago, Chris 44 said:

Trying to figure out what Holcomb was doing here (yeah I know hindsight 20/20, ive never played linebacker etc.).

 

He is looking into the backfield, the handoff to the RB is a fake (so I can see the slight hesitation, but it should not freeze him that much), then the motion guy runs wide, no one out there wide, Holcomb either doesnt see it or he thinks its someone else's man? Continues to focus on Herbert.

The left outside backer looks to initially track but stops, though he picks up the RB as he heads out to the defensive left which makes me believe the left outside LB played it correctly.

Thoughts?

Holcomb and Bostic did this all game, and have done this the past 2 seasons. They do not adjust their zone to find the nearest threat, but instead they sit in open grass covering nothing. Zone coverage, and especially NFL zone coverage, works better when everyone finds the nearest threat. When you have guys sitting in grass daydreaming, someone will be wide open like in that play. All Holcomb had to do was widen his zone.

[IrepDC]

The red lines show you who each defender has identified as their nearest threat in zone coverage. Each defender with a red line is making their way to cover someone. 

 

The huge green circle is Bostic and Holcomb staring at the QB and covering grass. Neither of them seem to understand how to play coverage as LBs. They are late to identify and respond to their nearest threat every time I watch them. 

[NoCalMike]

Also, another point about zone coverage, is that it is hard to make it work without a pass rush  because you have players covering areas of the field as opposed to players straight up.  With zone coverage the idea is the pass rush will force the QB to throw into occupied space (by the defender)

[method man]

I hope we see a lot of Cam Sims against the Giants. Heinicke has a natural chemistry with him and he owned the Giants last year (that was his coming out party). You just need him to find a soft zone and let him pick up chunk yardage after the catch as a big body. He absolutely needs to play more than two snaps.

[Thinking Skins]

I was screaming for more cam Sims in the game. He only got 2 plays.  I'm all for the youth movement but Brian has shown me nothing. He needs to earn his time.  Sims has been doing well here and I think he can create yards when Brown can't. I'm probably overreacting but that just stood out to me

[KDawg]

6 hours ago, IrepDC said:

The red lines show you who each defender has identified as their nearest threat in zone coverage. Each defender with a red line is making their way to cover someone. 

 

The huge green circle is Bostic and Holcomb staring at the QB and covering grass. Neither of them seem to understand how to play coverage as LBs. They are late to identify and respond to their nearest threat every time I watch them. 

 

They actually look to be in decent position here. Holcomb is slow to the flats to cover the swing, though. Bostic is falling underneath the Dig. The issue is that our backers are slow... not speed wise. But processing wise. They all have the same issue. They aren't instinctual at all. Holcomb should be a lot closer to the swing at this point. And even though I just said Bostic is falling under the dig, he also looks like he's about to totally overrun it and they're going to double the back and the Dig is wide open. 

Edited September 14, 2021 by KDawg

[Going Commando]

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

 

They actually look to be in decent position here. Holcomb is slow to the flats to cover the swing, though. Bostic is falling underneath the Dig. The issue is that our backers are slow... not speed wise. But processing wise. They all have the same issue. They aren't instinctual at all. Holcomb should be a lot closer to the swing at this point. And even though I just said Bostic is falling under the dig, he also looks like he's about to totally overrun it and they're going to double the back and the Dig is wide open. 

 

Well at that point in the frame it looks like Herbert has released the throw to the back and you can tell it's not a pump fake from his feet.  Bostic is right to give up on that dig and go after the ball as it's his only chance at getting to the play.  But Holcomb definitely read it too slow and is going to have to haul ass to get to the flat.

 

I want to dump on Bostic because he's a low cost journeyman and low hanging fruit, but sometimes it feels like he is the only smart player in our back 7.

[Skinsinparadise]

Cooley

 

He still thinks highly of the D line,   But when the QB gets the ball out fast you need the back 7 to do their job.  He also said rewatching the games last season he found that blitzing more in his view is the way to go.  He implied there is not enough pressure coming fast enough at times to disrupt the good QBs to help the back 7.  He thinks taking the risk of having one less guy in coverage helps the back end of the defense by putting the QB under duress.  Obviously, you can't blitz every play but he thinks they need to do it more. 

 

He thinks it was a fluke that they didn't lose 35-10.  They were dominated.  

 

He likes Heinicke but wants to see what happens with a more involved game plan which he accedes is hard to do when he comes in as backup.  He said both this game plan and the one against Tampa was super simple -- a lot of shallow crossers, digs, working a simple triangle passing game.  His point seemed to suggest teams can start game planning for that so they need to expand beyond that but said Taylor seems to be a smart dude and thinks they could figure that out.

 

He doesn't care for the eye discipline of the LBs, fooled by misdirection, they disrupt at times the zone defense by blowing their assignment or so it looks, which opens up holes.  The 3rd down long completion that iced the game had the defenders way too deep.   He thought just in general on too many plays safeties were playing too deep -- scared of Herbert, but you got to take chances when you are losing. 

Edited September 14, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[justice98]

Not really germane to losing the game, but more in general, last night's game showed what having a real weapon as a kicker can do.  Hopkins from 51 wasnt even close.  And beyond that Rivera won't even try.  Carlson is drilling no doubter 55 yarders under pressure.  We're scared to run our kicker out past 49-ish. 

[dyst]

Our offense continues to suck, not because the Chargers defense is that good or that we’re still “meshing”, we just suck on offense and that was apparent in the preseason even though some people made excuses for it. 

[KDawg]

8 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Well at that point in the frame it looks like Herbert has released the throw to the back and you can tell it's not a pump fake from his feet.  Bostic is right to give up on that dig and go after the ball as it's his only chance at getting to the play.  But Holcomb definitely read it too slow and is going to have to haul ass to get to the flat.

 

I want to dump on Bostic because he's a low cost journeyman and low hanging fruit, but sometimes it feels like he is the only smart player in our back 7.

Without seeing it I have no way of knowing if Bostic is rallying to the ball or over running a coverage assignment. Why? Because that’s what Bostic does.

[justice98]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

He doesn't care for the eye discipline of the LBs, fooled by misdirection, they disrupt at times the zone defense by blowing their assignment or so it looks, which opens up holes.  The 3rd down long completion that iced the game had the defenders way too deep.   He thought just in general on too many plays safeties were playing too deep -- scared of Herbert, but you got to take chances when you are losing. 

 

Outside of Davis, who'll keep developing, it's been a cavalcade of low rd draft picks, journeymen free agents, and special teamer types at LB.  I'm not surprised they struggle.

[Skinsinparadise]

[Warhead36]

I'm surprised our DL graded as high as they did. On the flip side I think Jackson played better than a 57.9 grade. I'm guessing Gibson was ranked lower than McKissic because of the fumbles.