Next Day Thread (Same Day Edition): The Team vs. Chargers

[kingdaddy]

26 minutes ago, DefinitelyMaybe said:

The defeat yesterday is made a little more bitter with the Fitz incident, it’s no ones fault these things they happen and it’s a shame

 

I think there’s layers to our QB situation now, it’s not as easy as shouting “GET CAM” or “DONT GET CAM”

 

Firstly id want to know the extent of Fitz injury, if it’s weeks and not months then it’s a non starter regards Cam, however if it begins to go down the route of being months that keeps Cam in play for me

 

Secondly Heinicke, he’s got a massive opportunity now to consolidate himself in the NFL, he flashed yesterday as he did at the end of last season, one issue, health. If he can stay healthy Cam is a non starter and if he gets injured Cam is still in play

 

So anything outside of Fitz being injured for months and Heinicke getting injured himself and I’m not interested in Cam, for me I start to draw the line at Kyle Allen. If Kyle Allen was the next man up then I’m giving Cam a call and asking the question, I’ll forgive a QB mistakes and I like to think I’m fairly patient but Allen just does nothing for me from an excitement standpoint and at that stage I’d say roll the dice on seeing what Newton has left this team isn’t perfect, but it’s too good to throw a season on Kyle Allen

Some of thoughts on Newton:

1). He's not vaccinated unless he recently did get the shot. That could have an impact on whether or not RR wants to sign a player who is not vaccinated. From what I understand it has potential ramifications in the locker-room and with availability to play each week depending on test results.

2). We could use a veteran QB in case we run into a season like last year where the QB position remains unstable.

3). I believe Cam could help out in short yardage/redzone packages to take some wear and tear off of Gibson. 

4). Cam and RR go way  back and have had success together. It's interesting, fate continues to almost dare them to reunite. 

5). Why did the Pats release him? Was he a potential malcontent? Did they want to give him a chance to play elsewhere and tried doing him a favor. Is he just not that good anymore? How much would it take to sign him? Where would he fit in with Kyle Allen still here? 

[Warhead36]

Cam is completely washed. He can't play anymore beyond the occasional QB sneak on 3rd and short. That isn't even taking into account his diva-ness(did you see his interview after the Pats cut him?)and his unwillingness to get vaccinated.

[Going Commando]

30 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

 

 

This was predictable, we knew very well what Cosmi's strengths and weaknesses were when we picked him.  We knew this match up was going to be terrible for him going into the game.  But the solutions to this issue are awkward because we don't have the personnel you traditionally use to give help to an OT struggling pass pro.  Logan Thomas is not a pass blocker.  He runs routes on 86% of our pass plays, and I don't think he's a good blocker and probably wouldn't be particularly useful staying back to block.  And none of our backs are pass blockers either.  Reyes and Bates are worth trying out as help for Cosmi in games where his match up is a badass like the last one, but they're rookies too.  There is no guarantee they'd be all that helpful either, and now we've lost one of our few good pass catchers.  Trying to beat decent coverages with two or three man concepts with our receiving group is just not going to work.  There isn't a Keenan Allen or Davante Adams in there beating multiple guys in timely fashion.  On those big third and long conversions the Chargers managed to hit, I bet they were mostly using max protections and Allen was just schooling us, and I just don't think we have good enough personnel to succeed doing that.

 

So what are our options?  Hoping Cosmi gets way better?

[Warhead36]

Yeah honestly the only solution is to hope Cosmi gets better. I was screaming to give him help too but the solutions just aren't viable. We need Thomas out running routes and the backs aren't great blockers(and I want Gibson and McKissic running routes too if they can't block).

 

We just have to hope he improves as the season goes on. Or we can pick up a blocking TE. I know there were some well rounded TE prospects in the draft we passed up on. Bates is probably not a viable option at this point.

[Chris 44]

5 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Yeah honestly the only solution is to hope Cosmi gets better. I was screaming to give him help too but the solutions just aren't viable. We need Thomas out running routes and the backs aren't great blockers(and I want Gibson and McKissic running routes too if they can't block).

 

We just have to hope he improves as the season goes on. Or we can pick up a blocking TE. I know there were some well rounded TE prospects in the draft we passed up on. Bates is probably not a viable option at this point.

Bates did not look good in pass pro yesterday.

Edited September 13, 2021 by Chris 44

[PartyPosse]

52 minutes ago, Alexa said:

they can play well against scrub QB's but when they get up against top QB's they can't do much. Tired of the talk. Tired of the hype. 

Lol. Never change WFT fans.

Edited September 13, 2021 by PartyPosse

[RandyHolt]

I had low expectations on Dyami in week 1. I am not sure they were met. He was getting snaps at least but the DBs seemed all over him.

 

I know I know the future looks good for all our draft picks because they are great athletes.

 

Speaking of good athletes I wonder if Ron would have preferred Steven Montez be brought back.

Edited September 13, 2021 by RandyHolt

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

I don't think I've ever seen a 15 pass block grade. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Thomas' TE coach who is regarded by some as one of the best in the business and a straight shooter seems to think Thomas is a good pass blocker.  Personally, I don't know but I am really curious to rewatch the game with coaches tape, and I'll watch Thomas.   Don't know how much he was left back to block or how much he chipped versus running his routes

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/football-team/washingtons-te-coach-sees-logan-thomas-among-top-complete-tight-ends

“That’s a tight end that is not only a heck of a receiver but is a heck of a pass protector," Hoener said. "Being able to block the best defensive end. He’s a heck of a run blocker…so these guys are part o-linemen and part receivers.”

Last offseason, when Washington was looking for an answer at a position that had been inconsistent for years, Logan Thomas was someone that showed potential to fit the mold of a complete tight end. His physical traits stood out immediately, and there were flashes of an ability to succeed at tight end.

 

 

 

Edited September 13, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Going Commando]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I recall well on a thread early on that you last season said you thought he was a good coach and actually posted that but changed your mind about him within a week's time last season because I recall asking you about it, then, when I noticed it.   I recall you cited back then what happened with Haskins, the Trent and Dunbar trade as to why. 

 

I am not trying to be a pain in the butt.  As you know I respect your takes so I am curious to get your full take on Rivera especialy since it changed from the beginning.  Based on your criticism before, you didn't like the GM version of him but did like the coach version of him but then changed your take on the coach version.    So I am assuming something turned your off to Rivera the coach versus your prior take.  

 

I am with you in that I don't love in theory the coach centric model to run personnel.  But I presume you must like it over the previous version with Bruce Allen in charge?  So the way I take it is at a minimum its an improvement over the past.   and it might be the only way to keep our crazy owner in his cage so to speak. 

 

I think it would be more accurate to say going into last season that I hoped Rivera was a good coach.  Watching him more closely since he's been here, I've been disabused and I think he's a mediocre coach.  I think our systems and schemes are uninspired and uncompetitive with the upper echelon of the league, I think our preparation is mediocre, I think he's a below average game manager who makes too many costly situational football mistakes, and I think he's surrounded himself with other mediocrities and weak coaches here--and that he fell into this pattern in the second half of his tenure in Carolina.  My in-laws are Carolina fans and, while they may not like Ruhl, they weren't sad to see Rivera go.  That kind of gave me pause, I thought the decision to fire him had been contentious and at least somewhat unpopular.  And Carolina people definitely didn't think much of Scott Turner.  I don't think Rivera is a bad coach, I just don't think he's good enough.  That's why I have been going on and on about how I hope Rodgers or Watson comes walking through the door, because IMO getting a fully grown MVP caliber QB in the building to assume a huge leadership and playmaking burden is the only way a mediocre coach gets us to a championship level of competitiveness.  I do not think our staff is good enough, nor has enough time to home grow that any more.  I read a lot of articles about different coaching staffs this summer, and about Brandon Staley in particular.  It blew my mind to see how much smarter they are than our coaches and front office men.  There was such a different level of intentionality and vision in the way he put his staffs together and designed his schemes.  Such a different level of effort to build around his best players.  To me, that's the kind of coaching it takes to successfully develop a franchise QB and break into the upper echelon of the league.

 

I used to think, well maybe he's at least a good Jimmies and Joes coach, but I don't think that's true either.  He's alienated too many of his key players over the years.  I don't think he's as good of a communicator as everyone believes, and I also don't think he's a disciplined team builder with a strong vision of or good plan for what he's trying to do.  He's been way too reactionary in long term decisions about personnel.  And worst of all, I think he has a horribly counterproductive tendency of putting players in position to fail in order to test them.  That is awful coaching and it's one of the worst things he does.

 

Certainly he's preferable to Bruce Allen, but it's not enough to jump from one doomed front office structure to another.  Going from embarrassing failure to respectful mediocrity still isn't good enough.  We need some kind of breakthrough.  I hope that it can happen with Rivera as HC because I do not want to have to go through another agonizing round of firings and coaching searches, especially with such a weak front office structure still in place.  But I don't have a ton of confidence in Rivera.

[Skinsinparadise]

18 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Certainly he's preferable to Bruce Allen, but it's not enough to jump from one doomed front office structure to another.  Going from embarrassing failure to respectful mediocrity still isn't good enough.  We need some kind of breakthrough.  I hope that it can happen with Rivera as HC because I do not want to have to go through another agonizing round of firings and coaching searches, especially with such a weak front office structure still in place.  But I don't have a ton of confidence in Rivera.

 

The problem at the point of the hire was likely though this organization was seen as such a dumpster fire and our owner considered the joke of the league that how are they going to attract a big time coach?    Arguably worst owner.  Worst facilities.  Worst stadium.  And a growing reputation for being cheap with FO hires among other things.

 

As some say landing Rivera was Dan outkicking his coverage.  And I'd add the odds that Rivera or for that matter any bigger name coach taking this job without FO control is low.  Dan has a history of finding unqualified lackeys run the FO where he ultimately makes calls under their cover.  If I am a coach like Rivera, no way I'd tell Dan, hey buddy I trust you, hire your guy, and I'll deal with him.  Hint hint hint -- whomever this GM ends up being would likely be Dan's pal who will just do his bidding.  I'd absolutely want control in Rivera's shoes.

 

If you aren't giving Rivera control, then Dan would likely be fishing for the bottom rung tier of available coaches, back in the Zorn type pile.  Heck we've got turned down years ago by the likes of Spags to be the head coach here because he thought he could do better.  If this was comparable to a vacation spot -- working here would be Beirut. 

 

18 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I think our preparation is mediocre, I think he's a below average game manager who makes too many costly situational football mistakes, and I think he's surrounded himself with other mediocrities and weak coaches here--and that he fell into this pattern in the second half of his tenure in Carolina.  My in-laws are Carolina fans and, while they may not like Ruhl, they weren't sad to see Rivera go.  That kind of gave me pause, I thought the decision to fire him had been contentious and at least somewhat unpopular.  And Carolina people definitely didn't think much of Scott Turner.  I don't think Rivera is a bad coach, I just don't think he's good enough.  That's why I have been going on and on about how I hope Rodgers or Watson comes walking through the door, because IMO getting a fully grown MVP caliber QB in the building to assume a huge leadership and playmaking burden is the only way a mediocre coach gets us to a championship level of competitiveness. 

 

Personally, I think he's an above average coach.  Not elite.  Not great.  But good.  I am more into leadership than anything with a head coach and the dude IMO is one of the better ones on that front in the league.

 

Pluses:

Culture building

Integrity-leader

His teams tend to finish strong

Been to a SB, turned around a bad team

Players like and respect him

Has a rep as a good defensive coordinator back in the day

 

Weaknesses

Teams tend to start slow

Game management

 

As far as assistant coaching staff.  Harris is considered a budding star, got multiple interviews to be defensive coordinator and most think he will get a job like that next year.  TE coach is considered among the best in the business.  Ditto the O line coach.  Zampese has a really good reputation.  Del Rio has been a head coach and a bunch top 10 defenses.

 

I am not as down on Scott Turner as you but I am with you in that I am not sure about him.  The analytic types tend to love him like Warren Sharp as to how he plays the odds as for run-pass.   But I don't think he's anything special as far as play design. 

 

Edited September 13, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Going Commando]

15 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Thomas' TE coach who is regarded by some as one of the best in the business and a straight shooter seems to think Thomas is a good pass blocker.  Personally, I don't know but I am really curious to rewatch the game with coaches tape, and I'll watch Thomas.   Don't know how much he was left back to block or how much he chipped versus running his routes

 

I read that quote earlier in the offseason and I'm not sure I buy it as much more than a position coach giving praise to one of his guys.  I think the proof is in the pudding and that a big reason they had him run routes 86% of his passing plays last year (which was supposedly one of the highest rates in the league IIRC) is because there was such a big difference in his quality as a blocker vs his quality as a receiver.  If a bigger reason is because we were able to trust Moses on an island last season and thus run Thomas on routes constantly, then that just makes me feel worse about cutting Moses.

 

I loved Cosmi as a prospect and was probably his biggest cheerleader outside of Texas, and even I had serious doubts about his readiness to start at tackle as a rookie.  I thought guard was a better fit for him early on because of the lack of development in pass pro.  I don't necessarily dislike the idea of playing him at OT this year, but if we do it, then we have to give him help.  Which means we have to get total reliability from the OT on the other side of the line.  And I have a bad feeling that we lost that when we swapped out Moses for Leno.  Hopefully Leno settles in soon.  And hopefully Taylor gets comfortable too and manages his pressures a little better.  And hopefully we can take a friggin early lead against the Giants so we can use the run game to slow the rush.

[Skinsinparadise]

7 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I read that quote earlier in the offseason and I'm not sure I buy it as much more than a position coach giving praise to one of his guys.  I think the proof is in the pudding and that a big reason they had him run routes 86% of his passing plays last year (which was supposedly one of the highest rates in the league IIRC) is because there was such a big difference in his quality as a blocker vs his quality as a receiver.  If a bigger reason is because we were able to trust Moses on an island last season and thus run Thomas on routes constantly, then that just makes me feel worse about cutting Moses.

 

I don't feel too bad about cutting Moses after reading the Jets clippings about him.  I wasn't as big as a Cosmi guy as you, you were on him early, but i like him, I'd give him time.  Bosa was a beast of a challenge to have a debut against.   As for Thomas running routes some of that could simply be their weapons stunk last year and he was one of the only ones they had.  I saw Bates in some plays.  I think our offensive staff would notice Cosmi getting owned by Bosa and in turn gave him help.  But maybe not?  I'll rewatch and comment then. 

 

7 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

And hopefully Taylor gets comfortable too and manages his pressures a little better.  And hopefully we can take a friggin early lead against the Giants so we can use the run game to slow the rush.

 

The Giants game will be telling.  Their defenstive tackles are beasts.  PFF actually ranks them better than ours.  I've watched my share of the Giants games over the years, my wife is a fan.  But their edge rush is "meh".  I think you got to run outside against the Giants -- that should be up Cosmi's alley. 

 

 

PFF showed Fitz was pressured on 5 of his 8 dropbacks as a passer. 

Edited September 13, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[PartyPosse]

I don’t blame Cosmi for getting dominated by Bosa, I blame the coaching staff for not adjusting to it.

 

It was almost as if yesterday was the evaluation day they chose not to have during the preseason.

Edited September 13, 2021 by PartyPosse

[Chris 44]

57 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

I don't think I've ever seen a 15 pass block grade. 

When you have 2 linebackers graded out in the bottom 3 that does not look good.

Edited September 13, 2021 by Chris 44

[kingdaddy]

18 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

I don’t blame Cosmi for getting dominated by Bosa, I blame the coaching staff for not adjusting to it.

 

It was almost as if yesterday was the evaluation day they chose not to have during the preseason.

Yep....studs like Bosa get insulted when you put a rookie on them one on one. Here's a guy that has a brother in the league who he competes with each week and has Chase Young on the other side who he's trying to outplay too. Now you insult him by leaving him one on one with a rookie. Even I know you don't tempt fate like that. Kerrigan used to get jacked up playing against rookies, it's like free sack day at the stadium. 

 

[757SeanTaylor21]

I dont know why we didnt put in Lucas at rt once it was shown that cosmi couldn't handle bosa 

[PartyPosse]

1 minute ago, 757SeanTaylor21 said:

I dont know why we didnt put in Lucas at rt once it was shown that cosmi couldn't handle bosa 

I had no problems leaving him in, but give him some help for pete's sake.Benching him after getting mauled wouldn't do anything for his confidence and I doubt Lucas would have been much better having to come in cold like that.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

[NoVaSkins21]

Defensive game plan was garbage with the man-to man coverage.  The Chargers knew this and took full advantage.  JDR didn't adjust all day long and they got couldn't get off the field on 3rd down when it mattered the most.  Offense was petty vanilla and didn't go deep except for a few times.  Team got out-coached on both sides of the ball.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[justice98]

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

Yeah honestly the only solution is to hope Cosmi gets better. I was screaming to give him help too but the solutions just aren't viable. We need Thomas out running routes and the backs aren't great blockers(and I want Gibson and McKissic running routes too if they can't block).

 

We just have to hope he improves as the season goes on. Or we can pick up a blocking TE. I know there were some well rounded TE prospects in the draft we passed up on. Bates is probably not a viable option at this point.

 

You have a starting caliber OT on the bench in Lucas.  Now, maybe it was just a bad match-up against a top DE, but maybe Cosmi ain't ready for primetime just yet.  But either way, I wouldn't spend a whole lot of time waiting around for Cosmi.  These games count more than letting him the his lumps and getting acclimated.

9 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

I had no problems leaving him in, but give him some help for pete's sake.Benching him after getting mauled wouldn't do anything for his confidence and I doubt Lucas would have been much better having to come in cold like that.

 

Eh, Lucas is a veteran that's come in cold many times as a backup.  I'd rather take my chances with that than watch the rookie get beat like drum all game.  Not a fan of worrying about confidence. This is pro football, perform or get out and get somebody who can.  

 

I dont know where Lucas fell off in people's minds, but he's only been good for us and held his own at LT.

[PartyPosse]

10 minutes ago, SAli457180 said:

Defensive game plan was garbage with the man-to man coverage.  The Chargers knew this and took full advantage.  JDR didn't adjust all day long and they got couldn't get off the field on 3rd down when it mattered the most.  Offense was petty vanilla and didn't go deep except for a few times.  Team got out-coached on both sides of the ball.

It didn't help that the coaches still think Fuller is a competent single-man cover corner and St. Juste is a seasoned vet.

[Fresh8686]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I don't think I've ever seen a 15 pass block grade. 

Falcons “hold my beer”

 

 

[jnhutchi3]

18 hours ago, KDawg said:

 

I think that picture is worth a thousand words. Since that video FedEx Field has come out and said that it was rain water and not sewage water. So you have to take them at their word. But if I had a sewage pipe in my stadium burst I'd say it was anything other than that, too. 

 

Anyways, there was apparently a football game tonight featuring a football team but it wasn't THE Football Team it was the Chargers.

 

The Good

DeAndre Carter looked good.

 

Heinicke played as well as he could. He is a solid spark and probably the best option for this team at quarterback if he can remain healthy. 

 

When McLaurin had chances he made things happen.

 

Antonio Gibson looks like a much improved back. Explosive, strong and athletic. (See the ugly section for more on him, but things I don't necessarily put on him).

 

Kam Curl is a legit player. As is William Jackson III.

 

We have Tress Way.

 

The Bad:

Ryan Fitzpatrick going down isn't a great omen. The offense may be better with Heinicke's mobility, but if he can't stay healthy Fitz's injury becomes a much bigger deal.

 

Kendall Fuller in man coverage is maddening. He's just not good at it. He is a zone corner. Through and through. 

 

Our linebackers don't play downhill at all (see the Ugly for more on this). 

 

Our tackling is deplorable.

 

We have showed no creativity to get the ball to our playmakers. 

 

We didn't get the ball to McLaurin or Logan Thomas anywhere near enough.

 

The Ugly:

The defense. I could just leave it at that. But let's talk about the announcer's comment that Del Rio utilizes a 2-gap system, shall we? A 2-gap system means that each DL is responsible for two gaps. It is generally utilized in an odd front, but sometimes can be used in an even front. However, it turns your tackles into read and react types of players and generally it is used to get your backers to be less run inclined and more coverage inclined and it is paired with aggressive pressure schemes. So, if true, Del Rio is employing a read and react scheme for our two defensive tackles, basically telling our backers to not be down hill players (which explains so much) and doesn't bring much pressure. In my opinion it is a poor utilization of our talent and if true is a major problem moving forward. I don't know if its true, it adds up and makes sense, but I can't say whether or not its actually true. 

 

The defensive line. They get their own blurb. The Chargers got rid of the ball quickly, which is an excellent gameplan, but the DL was completely neutralized even when Herbert took 5-step drops and held the ball longer. The last time Chase Young met Rashawn Slater was Northwestern and Ohio State. And Slater shut him down. Today was no different. So WFT swapped he and Sweat. And a backup RT shut Young down. To be fair, Young was getting chipped and doubled. But there was one play where Young came off the edge and the running back step up and he rocked backward from the impact of the block. Smith-Williams was more impactful today than Chase Young. Sweat made an appearance on the strip sack but was semi quiet otherwise. The only DL that looked consistently active was Daron Payne. This is a starting defensive line of FOUR first rounders. Last year was their first year together. But this is year two and needs to be better. And Rivera saying they subbed some of our better players out because they were dragging? The guy I saw out more often than others seemed to be Young. Is this really the case? If so: Not good.

 

We are giving the ball to Gibson entirely too often. He is not used to or currently built for 25-30 touches a game. He will wear down during the course of a game and the season. I have confidence Patterson can get the job done but then the question is: can he hold up with a heavy work load of Gibson goes down? We don't have a true bellcow.

 

How about the 51-yard field goal attempt? I'm not entirely sure why we thought that was a good plan given Hopkins overall level of play the last few years. And I'm not blaming Hopkins here, aside from that FG attempt he played well. This is a coaching miscue. 

 

Closing:

This team was mired in problems today. Bad coaching, decision making, creativity. But the Chargers were also pretty good. They had problems finishing drives and that will haunt them if they don't fix it. But they are a legit football team with a very good quarterback at the helm, a good OL and a good defense. I'm not going to sit and type another essay in this section. We were bad, have to do better and its a short week to shake it off and make us forget about this horrendous outing.

 

Awards:

 

*** - William Jackson III

** - Tress Way

* -  Terry McLaurin (because when he got the chances he made the most he could out of them)

 - Jon Bostic (We aren't putting him in positions to be successful)

  - Kendall Fuller

   - Chase Young

 

Season to Date:

 

*** - William Jackson III

** - Tress Way

* -  Terry McLaurin 

 - Jon Bostic 

  - Kendall Fuller

   - Chase Young

 

 

 

Good Summary.  I would also mention that Rivera's decision to punt from mid-field on 4th down with 7 minutes left in the game was a poor decision.  That decision was just way too risk-averse.  In addition, the Washington defense was terrible almost the entire game and there was no guarantee that Washington would get the ball back before the game was over.  And that is exactly what happened.

 

I'm hoping Heinecke remains the starting QB.  I just think he brings a lot more to the table than Fitzpatrick and I said that a month ago before the season started.  I don't know why Washington spent so much on Fitzpatrick.  However, this team is not going to win many games if the defense continues to play this poorly, no matter who the QB is.