WSJ: A Generation of American Men Give Up on College: ‘I Just Feel Lost’

[tshile]

3 hours ago, PleaseBlitz said:

college admissions and employment/compensation prospects have favored men much more than that for so long

I have to look up the other stuff. I’m just busy. Came to post something in the parent thread and this dinged me

 

but I don’t accept this style of argument. Saying that it’s ok to favor a certain gender/race now, because the other was favored before, such that you’re now punishing someone today for something they had nothing to do with because it satisfies some weird version of getting even, and doing it as a numbers game… I just won’t ever accept that. 

[NoCalMike]

I think there are many things contributing to the current situation.

 

One would be that K-12 and even sometimes early years of college don't really necessarily prepare you for the kind of jobs/work/career you are actually interested in doing.  I think those school years go by so fast that a lot of people end up enrolled in college with little to no direction regarding some of interest that they just feel more lost navigating those general ed requirements.

 

Then you combine it with so much mixed messaging on the value of college that I think it can give people more justification in their minds to drop out as soon as things appear to be too tough to handle.   With the financial obligation that must be given in order to get a degree these days I am sure it is a constant weight on everyone's shoulders and mental health.  They probably constantly are questioning themselves as to whether the payoff will be worth it or if they will be stuck in the same middle class grind as everyone else. I have had several jobs where I am working shoulder to shoulder with people educated much more than me as far as degrees go and all that and I was amazed at how many were educated in fields that had zero to do with the work they eventually settled into, nor did it matter much for where in the company they started.  Now, the degrees might give them the upperhand when leadership or management positions opened up but those roles were so limited that even then it was a crapshoot. 

 

 

[PleaseBlitz]

38 minutes ago, tshile said:

I have to look up the other stuff. I’m just busy. Came to post something in the parent thread and this dinged me

 

but I don’t accept this style of argument. Saying that it’s ok to favor a certain gender/race now, because the other was favored before, such that you’re now punishing someone today for something they had nothing to do with because it satisfies some weird version of getting even, and doing it as a numbers game… I just won’t ever accept that. 

The article says school admissions are favoring men.  But the number and quality of male applications are so much worse than women, it still results in more women being accepted despite the favorable treatment of men. 

On 9/6/2021 at 4:25 PM, Cooked Crack said:

Some of the schools extend offers to a higher percentage of male applicants, trying to get a closer balance of men and women.

 

“Is there a thumb on the scale for boys? Absolutely,” said Jennifer Delahunty, a college enrollment consultant who previously led the admissions offices at Kenyon College in Gambier, Ohio, and Lewis & Clark College in Portland, Ore

 

[bearrock]

The $64K question is why there is an imbalance.  If admissions skew for women due to some favoritism for female applicants, that's an issue.  But that doesn't seem to be the case.  Men are not a traditionally disfavored class.  If meritocracy is resulting in less opportunities for men, who have historically enjoyed much more societal benefit than women, I'm not sure what society is supposed to do about it.  Git gud?

[No Excuses]

If I were a researcher, one of my starting questions would be if video games are leading to disparate educational outcomes between boys and girls. 
 

There’s already evidence linking an increase in quality of video games to men working less hours.

 

It may be something as simple as boys spending less time studying compared to girls because they spend more time gaming.

 

The answer to the question of why girls are out competing boys in education is almost certainly buried in time use datasets. 

Edited September 8, 2021 by No Excuses

[RansomthePasserby]

1 hour ago, No Excuses said:

It may be something as simple as boys spending less time studying compared to girls because they spend more time gaming.

Yes! Boys finding achievement in leveling up while girls find achievement in grades and degrees makes total sense. And when classes become difficult and a boy starts falling behind, escape to a world where he’s the hero and he will win in the end becomes even more tempting.

[PeterMP]

1.  Colleges are absolutely tipping the scale to bring in males.  Where I work the average SAT of male students is about 100 points less than females and we sill are predominantly female (and its getting worse with time and people expect it to get even worse over the next few years with Covid).

 

2.  The biggest issue is likely that most males mature more slowly than women.  Most male brains don't fully develop until years after a female brains.  And the last part to develop is impulse control.  Should I study for my test in two days or go do some other random thing?  The person that has poor impulse control and goes and does whatever random thing instead of studying is going to be in trouble.

 

What you do about it, I don't know.

 

(There are other differences too.)  

[Jabbyrwock]

37 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

Most male brains don't fully develop until years after a female brains.  And the last part to develop is impulse control.

 

Couldn't agree with you more.  And whats more studies have shown...ooooooh...hey look...a Matrix4 thread....

[Barry.Randolphe]

This sounds like the making of a **** ton of future incels and angsty men with too much time on their hands to carry out homegrown terrorist attacks when they can't find jobs.

[mcsluggo]

17 hours ago, tshile said:

I have to look up the other stuff. I’m just busy. Came to post something in the parent thread and this dinged me

 

but I don’t accept this style of argument. Saying that it’s ok to favor a certain gender/race now, because the other was favored before, such that you’re now punishing someone today for something they had nothing to do with because it satisfies some weird version of getting even, and doing it as a numbers game… I just won’t ever accept that. 

 

do you think that college admissions and college classes are favoring women?

 

personally i think that women grow up a boatload faster than men.   A solid majority of 18 to 20 year old women have personalities that somewhat mirror the adults that they will grow into, a solid majority of 18 to 20 year old men are basically Beavis on steroids.

 

 

i am not sure if THAT is more the the result of biological or societal differences (its possible that schools impact this growth pattern,  but in that case you would have to point the institutional finger at elementary and high schools more than colleges, right?)

 

<<edit... peterMP beat me to the punch three posts up..  oops! >>>

Edited September 8, 2021 by mcsluggo

[tshile]

21 minutes ago, mcsluggo said:

do you think that college admissions and college classes are favoring women?

Maybe some are, but it sounds like they’ve been favoring men for a while to try to balance things. I feel like people with a better grip on it than me have said as much - so I’m certainly inclined to just accept what they’ve said. 
 

 

 

[LadySkinsFan]

18 hours ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

 

 

I don't think we should tell people they have to go to college, I think we should tell people they need to figure out who they want to be when they grow up and then make a plan to achieve that.  And i don't mean they need to pick a specific career, but if you see yourself working with your hands and not your brain, or if you have a particular passion, then follow it.   If you are aimless and have no clue, then do something to figure your **** out before you commit to spending $100,000+ on an education that you may not need, want or ever use.   Once you figure your **** out, then college may be a requirement for that, or something else may be a requirement for that.  Or nothing may be a requirement for that in which case 4 years of college would be a waste of time and money.  

 

That's what I told my daughter when she turned 18, along with the "I'm not legally responsible for you anymore" talk. She didn't go to college, she works at a food co-op and worked her way up to a management position managing about 25 people at age 43. She likes her work and the co-op philosophy. I'm proud of her because she's made a success in her chosen field. She also worked at Mom's Organic Market in Alexandria before moving to Austin. 

 

I would have been successful managing proposals because I have a gift for writing and managing process. I do have two associates degrees, Liberal Arts and Paralegal (magna cum laude). One agency kept sending me to fix problems of a male proposal manager with a Ph.D because he was a ****up. I got a reduced rate because the client spent the big bucks on the ****up. I quit accepting assignments from that agency. Women proposal managers regularly made less hourly rate than the men. I'm sure that's still true.

 

Until we fix the student loan problems, men and women share equal responsibilities at home and work, the good old boys network is abolished, women achieve full bodily autonomy, and we realize that indeed a college education isn't the be all end all to higher income like paying people living wages we will continue to see all sorts of inequities in our society. 

[Riggo-toni]

I went to 4 years of college learning multiple languages, then got a master's degree in International Business...30k+ in student loans, and I ended up doing paperwork for 19k/year at a mortgage company before getting laid off.  So ...Four months of computer training, and I landed a career in IT. Now my wife complains about how much more money I make even though she has 3 post-graduate degrees.

Men are programmed to work hard enough to get laid.  With hookups now being so much easier, the old days of when you had to work for a degree and get the best job to score a hot wife in order to secure a sex life are history, so now dudes are not going to be motivated as they once were.

[TradeTheBeal!]

Color me shocked that a decade of Jordan Peterson YouTube lectures and Joe Rogan podcasts didn’t get our young men motivated to engage in higher learning.

[No Excuses]

2 hours ago, Riggo-toni said:

Men are programmed to work hard enough to get laid.  With hookups now being so much easier, the old days of when you had to work for a degree and get the best job to score a hot wife in order to secure a sex life are history, so now dudes are not going to be motivated as they once were.

 

FWIW, data from dating apps shows that it's a lot easier for women to get laid now and a lot of men are striking out in hook up culture. College-educated men with good jobs and tolerable personalities have never had it easier in the urban dating scene. But there's a lot more guys striking out and finding it difficult to get laid.

 

Edited September 8, 2021 by No Excuses

[Riggo-toni]

It's always been easier for women to get laid...just say yes.

[Zguy28]

16 hours ago, PeterMP said:

1.  Colleges are absolutely tipping the scale to bring in males.  Where I work the average SAT of male students is about 100 points less than females and we sill are predominantly female (and its getting worse with time and people expect it to get even worse over the next few years with Covid).

 

2.  The biggest issue is likely that most males mature more slowly than women.  Most male brains don't fully develop until years after a female brains.  And the last part to develop is impulse control.  Should I study for my test in two days or go do some other random thing?  The person that has poor impulse control and goes and does whatever random thing instead of studying is going to be in trouble.

 

What you do about it, I don't know.

 

(There are other differences too.)  

prime example is my oldest son. He'd much rather be playing rocket league or some other game of the week then studying for cyber security degree. He took a threat to stop paying for his college and to raise his "rent" ( which goes into a savings account for after his graduation) to get him to buckle down at all.

[tshile]

I have a family member in that prime 20-24 age group 

 

he’s very sociable. Has an engineering degree. Is into the party scene. 
 

has trouble finding chicks because, according to him, chicks these days aren’t into that aspect of socializing. He says they’re consumed by posting pictures of themselves on Instagram or whatever. 
 

he did fine with hookup apps but he’s reached an age where what he wants is a relationship and he’s finding that difficult to do. Says his friends have the same problem. 
 

he said chicks are just really into themselves and the Instagram/tik tok culture. 
 

I also wonder the following things:

- we’ve seen the average age of marriage climb a lot

- we’ve seen the average age of having children climb a lot

- maybe this is related?

- we all laughed at Japanese men having the same problem when we had a thread on it years ago. Maybe we’re goin g through something similar? Wonder if anything relates between the two. 
 

also something I wonder, that I keep separate from the rest of it because it has its roots in the long term political arguing we’ve had going on here:

- when society starts saying men are bad, it shouldn’t be a wonder if you start seeing downward trends in important things 

 

Sure, we should talk about how some men are bad, some historic policy/agenda/culture/etc things are bad. But. We’ve definitely got people projecting that across the entire gender. And if you grow up, every time you have to check a box, checking a box that makes you feel like people think that, like the system is rigged against you, etc… I would expect to see some of things were talking about. 
 

(that being said maybe it’s completely unrelated. I’m aware that’s a possibility. I just wonder about it all)

 

(I also like how if any other group was underrepresented in something important we’d get a long list of lectures about systemic problems that created this problem, how it’s unfair, and how we have to make dramatic changes to fix it because it’s important our numbers are representative. But when it’s about men, the consensus seems to quickly be “they should stop playing video games.”  Gee, wonder where I’ve hear that style of argument before?)

 

 

 

—— add

 

Also. On the video game note. Females representation in video game playing and culture is the highest it’s ever been. It’s a very large group now. 
 

so it’s weird to juxtapose that with the increase in college and the idea that the problem with males is they just want to play video games. 
 

wonder what the data on that says. Are the females playing video games not doing well academically and not going to college too? Or is it just a nonsense argument, even if anecdotally we all know some guys that play video games too much?

Edited September 8, 2021 by tshile

[tshile]

Quote

In 2020, women accounted for nearly 41% of all gamers in the United States. 

 

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tomokoyokoi/2021/03/04/female-gamers-are-on-the-rise-can-the-gaming-industry-catch-up/?sh=7199ab17f9fe

 

so they’re getting pretty close to equal representation in video games, while simultaneously taking over higher education. 
 

I realize that’s a basic way to interpret that - but, considering how basic “men should stop playing video games so much” is, I think it’s fitting at the moment. 

[RansomthePasserby]

3 hours ago, No Excuses said:

 

FWIW, data from dating apps shows that it's a lot easier for women to get laid now and a lot of men are striking out in hook up culture. College-educated men with good jobs and tolerable personalities have never had it easier in the urban dating scene. But there's a lot more guys striking out and finding it difficult to get laid.

 

 

Geez it’s bleak out there for the average guy. Can’t get a degree or get laid.

 

Makes sense though, why would a mid 20 something girl studying for her masters go out with a broke 20 something guy when she can find any guy in his 30s with money and his life figured out (and a tolerable personality to boot) on her dating app of choice?

Edited September 8, 2021 by RansomthePasserby

[Springfield]

So a different thought on the subject…

 

Its easier for males to take jobs that don’t require a college degree and make a fine living. Electricians, plumbers, mechanics, etc can easily bring in six figures without a six figure debt from school. Does it take hard work and sometimes sacrifice of your body and your time? Yes. Can/do women fill these trade jobs that can pay $100,000-200,000 per year, usually no.

 

Women don’t have it as easy without a degree.

 

Just a different perspective to throw in there. You can make good money without college if you’re a man. Also, the military is always there.

[bearrock]

4 hours ago, tshile said:

he said chicks are just really into themselves and the Instagram/tik tok culture. 

 

If women are into hookups but not as much for relationships, I wonder if that says something about what traditional relationships bring to the table for men and women and why women may be increasingly less interested in them. 

 

Quote

(I also like how if any other group was underrepresented in something important we’d get a long list of lectures about systemic problems that created this problem, how it’s unfair, and how we have to make dramatic changes to fix it because it’s important our numbers are representative. But when it’s about men, the consensus seems to quickly be “they should stop playing video games.”  Gee, wonder where I’ve hear that style of argument before?)

wonder what the data on that says. Are the females playing video games not doing well academically and not going to college too? Or is it just a nonsense argument, even if anecdotally we all know some guys that play video games too much?

 

But history and context matter a great deal here.  What systemic problem are we supposed to point to when the advantaged class underperforms compared to the disadvantaged?

 

Quote

—— add

Also. On the video game note. Females representation in video game playing and culture is the highest it’s ever been. It’s a very large group now. 

so it’s weird to juxtapose that with the increase in college and the idea that the problem with males is they just want to play video games. 

 

I would be interested to see the gender distribution on addictive behavior in general, not just video games.  Many posters here are good examples of people who are perfectly productive and yet play video games as one of their hobbies.

[tshile]

@Springfield

 

Assuming that’s true (which I assume and actually agree with you, and hadn’t considered it that way, because it’s my understanding to) without actually seeing a study/data to back it up…

 

I would honestly say that’s a fine rationale for saying we don’t view the under representation as a problem that needs to be fixed; more it’s just a side effect of what you described. 
 

it’s difficult to see that (I see it when you write it but I would have never gone that road myself) for me because I feel like I’ve spent years having it beaten into my head that equal representation is better because it provides the best contributions because it should be equal, and if it’s not, something is keeping someone out, therefore we’re not maximizing potential…. And now this topic comes up and it’s like equal representation doesn’t matter ….

 

oh. Ok. 
 

but I’ve heard countless podcasts outlining how racist policies, society, and structure n the 1900’s created a situation where black people were basically barred from being inventors. And that because of it we are worse off as there was someone somewhere with an idea that never got heard. Sadie Alexander is a great example from the economics realm.  You can even see patents by black inventors increase after certain policies were enacted that made it easier for them to participate, only to decrease after certain people were able to adjust <whatever> such that it was more difficult (or even a matter of physical harm) to try to be a black inventor. 
 

so it’s hard to take this thing I’ve had beaten over my head (which I would consider: rightfully so, at least at the moment) and come to a screeching halt on this particular issue. 
 

 

43 minutes ago, bearrock said:

 

If women are into hookups but not as much for relationships, I wonder if that says something about what traditional relationships bring to the table for men and women and why women may be increasingly less interested in them. 

 

 

I think increased age for marriage and children would sort of maybe answer this. 
 

also, and I’m going to be crude here:

women now enjoy a “freedom” with their sexuality they probably haven’t had since the changes of the 60’s. Behavior “accepted” today would have lead to catastrophic slut shaming even 15 years ago. 
 

 

 

43 minutes ago, bearrock said:

 

But history and context matter a great deal here.  What systemic problem are we supposed to point to when the advantaged class underperforms compared to the disadvantaged?

 

 

I would posit that maybe getting away from phrases and mindsets like “disadvantage/advantaged class” in this particular discussion would be way more helpful

 

 

43 minutes ago, bearrock said:

I would be interested to see the gender distribution on addictive behavior in general, not just video games.  Many posters here are good examples of people who are perfectly productive and yet play video games as one of their hobbies.

same

Edited September 9, 2021 by tshile

[bearrock]

40 minutes ago, tshile said:

I would posit that maybe getting away from phrases and mindsets like “disadvantage/advantaged class” in this particular discussion would be way more helpful

 

Well, is there really a way to do that here without losing significant context to the discussion?  There's no question that men have enjoyed significantly greater benefit from social construct dating back millennias, is there? 

 

I mean slaves got their suffrage before most women did in the United States.  Even during the covid pandemic, it was the moms who quit their jobs and stayed home with the kids because of societal norms. 

 

The group getting the brunt of societal disadvantage, historically and in the present, is outperforming the opposing group who directly benefits, if nothing else by the mere fact that there's only two groups (by in large) and they happen to not belong in the one that gets the short end of the stick as a whole.  How do we discuss this issue in an intelligent and honest way without acknowledging that fact?

[Corcaigh]

Stating that a ‘generation of men is giving up on college’ seems a bit of a stretch.

 

65% graduation rate for women versus 59% for men across all types of US colleges, which I don’t think is trending down.
 

Is participation by men lower because they are finding vocational careers, or are they struggling to find college places because women are taking more spots.