2022 Comprehensive Draft Thread

[PartyPosse]

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

 

I'd be stoked about that draft. But Ridder to the Lions? They're almost certainly going to have a top 3 pick, possibly even 1st overall. I just don't see Ridder as that level of prospect. I'd be more inclined to think they'd go with Corral, unfortunately.

I just don’t think there’s any QB worthy of a top 2 or 3 pick. Especially for a team like the lions who have like 30 picks in the first two days.

[Koolblue13]

18 minutes ago, mistertim said:

Sam Hartman having himself a day vs UNC. 4 passing and 2 rushing TDs. He's put up some impressive numbers this season, though some were against poor opponents. I like his game from the little I've seen of him. I think he still has another year of eligibility left so he could opt to stay or come out. If he enters the draft I could see him as a good guy to take a mid round flyer on to see how he develops.

I was thinking the same thing. He definitely looked like the better QB today and I liked Howell.

[KDawg]

Watching Ole Miss and Liberty now. Not seeing anything to change my initial assessment of Willis either way. I just don’t see him being a guy we can foster here.

[Koolblue13]

Willis seems he could be an amazing weapon and really unstoppable, but not as a QB1.

[mistertim]

17 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

I just don’t think there’s any QB worthy of a top 2 or 3 pick. Especially for a team like the lions who have like 30 picks in the first two days.

 

Yeah that's a fair point. I guess it depends on how desperate a team is for a QB. The Lions still have Goff who has been meh this year, but they also have way worse problems on that team than just QB. He's under contract for a few more years and it would be very expensive to cut him as far as dead cap.

 

With all those picks they might decide to go BPA and stock up on more talent and see how Goff does with a better team around him before drafting a new guy, especially since this QB class doesn't really have any superstar standouts.

 

One of the "good" things about this QB class not having any clear standout blue chip prospects is that if we do like a guy he'll be more likely to be there when we're picking without having to give up a king's ransom to move into the top 2.

 

14 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I was thinking the same thing. He definitely looked like the better QB today and I liked Howell.

 

Yeah there are things I like about Howell but I'm not necessary enamored with him. He reminds me of a poor man's Mayfield. Which isn't necessarily a horrible thing, but he's not a guy I think is worth a top 10 pick.

 

As far as Hartman, before today I'd hardly really watched him outside of one or two quick cutups. I switched back and forth a bit to the UNC game earlier, but I was mostly focused on Liberty vs Ole Miss. I'm going to see if I can watch a recording of the game later so I can get a better picture of Hartman's play.

[Going Commando]

2 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

6 sacks in the first half?  Stuff like that drives me crazy about college football, Liberty has no business being in the same field as an SEC team

 

They wouldn't get on TV much otherwise.  These kinds of match ups are good for the small programs because they help fund them for the year.

 

But yeah, that OL got their **** kicked in.  Willis and his RB looked like they belonged, but none of the others.  Especially that right tackle, yeesh.  Their defense couldn't hand with the speed of the Ole Miss skill players either.

 

For all that, we still got some glimpses of what makes Willis special.  The rare running ability.  The rare arm that can drill those tough throws outside of the numbers, even without his feet set.  And I thought his accuracy from the pocket was actually pretty good, maybe even a little tighter than Corrales, and that his receivers misplayed some easy ones.  Also saw the turnover problems he's had in the past, but none of them were especially troubling.  One of the picks was a bad break where his receiver got big boyed on a ball he should have caught.  One of them was a bad play call where they tipped their hand on the fake screen and he should have just sent it into the stands.  And the last one was a desperation heave after the game was effectively over.  He actually hung tight in the pocket today and seemed to read the field pretty well.  His guys were just overmatched and couldn't get open and he had to eat a lot of throws.  And the line definitely couldn't keep the pocket clean.  Three man rushes got home multiple times.

 

I don't feel like we learned anything new from this game.  Particularly not with Corral, who just kind of took what was there, hit a lot of open looks, found a moderate rhythm, was reasonably accurate on throws into tighter windows, and really just had to babysit an early lead.  It was an autopilot game for him.  But I will say that it was really palpable to me that, seeing them on the same field, Willis is much more physically gifted than him.  I like Corrales heart and energy and his arm talent, but I'm just not sure that I see special with him.  His performances have been very scripted this year and he's not doing a lot of play making.  He's just kind of quarterbacking competently like a Derek Carr, and I don't get the feeling he's the kind of talent that can elevate an NFL franchise.

 

And I keep wanting to write him off, but it's hard to ignore the fact that Pickett has played the best out of all of these dudes by far.  He and Addison had another big day, and it's becoming clear that he's the most polished and reliable passer and field reader of the group.

 

The best thing about Howell's day were those chaotic draws, but I can't shake the feeling those won't translate to the NFL.  He is so slow on those things, and he's not exactly Taysom Hill.  I can't understand why teams have so much trouble bringing him down.  I still think he's a poor man's Baker Mayfield, but he's definitely bigger and stronger and a more effective runner than Baker.  Hard to argue with results he gets on the ground.  Guys can't tackle him.

 

[mistertim]

It's interesting how different people can watch the same game and come away with such different takeaways. IMO Corral looked like he belonged, Willis not so much. Corral didn't have a ton of insane plays but he was very accurate, moved the ball, made some very nice throws, and also showed his ability to scrambled and extend plays, even though he was also playing with a bum ankle.

 

I can't imagine that Willis's stock won't take a hit after today. He finally went up against a big boy team and it wasn't very pretty for the most part. Some of that was due to his OL being completely outmatched, but even when he had time he still didn't necessarily do all that much. He had a few nice passes where you could definitely see his special arm talent but IMO I didn't really see all that much that made me go "yeah, this guy is a 1st round pick"

 

I think Willis may be a guy that could work for some team, especially if they're willing to be very patient and design their playbook around him. But I don't think Washington is that team.

[max21]

That UNC game was wild, Chandler and Hartman balled out 

[Renegade7]

Agree that from what I saw, I wouldn't trade up for Willis and believe we can help him adjust to level.  Corral had it too easy to make a judgment on him, I also agree with that.  Its such a bummer to see these two prospects in the same field and it be completely nocompetitive like that.

[CRobi21]

 

[Redskins Reparations]

I am still beating the drum for Kenny Pickett.  He looks like the most pro-ready QB in college football in my opinion.  Today against Duke was just another day at the office:

28/43  416 yards  3 TD  0 Int

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

 

 

I don't feel like we learned anything new from this game.  Particularly not with Corral, who just kind of took what was there, hit a lot of open looks, found a moderate rhythm, was reasonably accurate on throws into tighter windows, and really just had to babysit an early lead.  It was an autopilot game for him.  But I will say that it was really palpable to me that, seeing them on the same field, Willis is much more physically gifted than him.  I like Corrales heart and energy and his arm talent, but I'm just not sure that I see special with him.  His performances have been very scripted this year and he's not doing a lot of play making.  He's just kind of quarterbacking competently like a Derek Carr, and I don't get the feeling he's the kind of talent that can elevate an NFL franchise.

 

 

 

I think your point applies well to this game but not so much Corral's season.   He does a ton of play making.  Closest thing to Zach Wilson I've seen among the current QB crop in the context of making plays on the move-when things break down.  He scrambles to make plays.  Runs.  Make plays off script.  Scrappy as heck -- Jeff Garcia like in that regard.  Yeah he didn't have to do it today versus Liberty both he's done it a ton this season and last season, too. 

Edited November 6, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

54 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I think Willis may be a guy that could work for some team, especially if they're willing to be very patient and design their playbook around him. But I don't think Washington is that team.

 

 

Where is this narrative coming from how WFT can't develop a QB like Willis?  Turner is too dense to do it -- and or Zampese, it would be over their head versus other teams with superior coordinators?  Or Rivera really likes pocket QBs?  Or is it something else?

 

Sorry this point befuddles me.  I can even recall discussion on the board years back when it was clear that Shanny wasn't coming back about grabbing the Carolina coordinator who was thought to be available, and the intrigue was because of their work with Newton, Carolina ran a heavy RO-RPO scheme.

 

 

2 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

Corral is definitely a baller. I've said before and I think @Skinsinparadisehas said the same, that he reminds me of Heinicke on steroids. Bigger, faster, much better arm, but the same slipperiness and ability to scramble, as well as the same gamer mentality.

 

I have said exactly the same line.  Not sure who used it first.  I've said it multiple times for weeks on the Heinicke thread. 

Edited November 6, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[mistertim]

8 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

Where is this narrative coming from how WFT can't develop a QB like Willis?  Turner is too dense to do it -- and or Zampese, it would be over their head versus other teams with superior coordinators?  Or Rivera really likes pocket QBs?  Or is it something else?

 

Sorry this point befuddles me.  I can even recall discussion on the board years back when it was clear that Shanny wasn't coming back about grabbing the Carolina coordinator who was thought to be available, and the intrigue was because of their work with Newton, Carolina ran a heavy RO-RPO scheme.

 

 

Honestly, I think it has a bit less to do with their ability or willingness and more to do with having the patience to develop a guy like Willis, especially with an owner like Snyder and a fanbase as finicky as ours.

 

As far as their ability to do it, I think they probably could develop a guy like Willis if they thought it was worth it. But in order to do that you'd have to be truly dedicated to the guy and to basically rehauling your offense and philosophy to fit his skill set. 

 

That's a big ask so as I said they'd have to truly think the guy was special enough to be worth it. The Ravens did it with Jackson, Carolina with Cam, and the Skins with RG3 at first, so we know it's possible. 

 

Also, how willing would Turner be to completely revamp his whole system? I honestly don't know. Would he be as flexible as a guy like Kyle Shanny or would he believe that a guy like Willis just wasn't a very good fit for his system?

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

Honestly, I think it has a bit less to do with their ability or willingness and more to do with having the patience to develop a guy like Willis, especially with an owner like Snyder and a fanbase as finicky as ours.

 

 

Pleasing the fans will be impossible with just about any scenario.  And for Dan, who knows?  He loved RG3 like he was his son.  He seems to like exciting players.  

 

Can you see the fan base chill if they sign Trubisky and he looks like he did with the Bears?  Speaking for myself who doesn't think highly of Trubisky,  I'd have much less patience for something like that.  In fact, nothing makes me cringe more than taking on a reclamation project that is already a punch line from the jump and watch that unfold over a season like what's happening in Carolina.  I like Mariota more.  But even with him, he brings a reputation for being brittle.  He gets hurt in the preseason or whatever, the outcry would get intense.  Winston throws picks or name that guy showing the same crap that made other teams give up on them.  I'd put money on the reclamation projects we discussed all failing -- a lot of money, too. 

 

I get the counter point to that is draft a young QB and when Trubisky or whomever likely bombs the young QB that we got is hopefully Mac Jones level pro ready.  And I endorse that idea of a veteran and rookie.  But I don't give a rats behind which QB is the most pro ready.  I want the best QB, period.   And if we are so worried about a young QB replacing name that reclamation project then IMO you address the issue in the reverse way.  That is, trade for a QB who is unlikely to bomb and can hold the fort -- someone like Matt Ryan. 

 

Coming from one of the small number of people on this thread who was actually high on Mac Jones last year,  I don't think there is a pro ready QB on that level in this draft class.  I've been a Matt Corral guy from the jump of the season, i am as high on him as anyone here, but I don't see him hitting the ground running easily in season one.

 

As for Willis, I am still forming my opinion.  So my point really isn't about him.  it's about I've seen for a long time (and its not just me) Carolina as one of the innovators as for working with running QBs.  We've all talked about it way back when.  So i am not on the can they adjust their system to a running QB train -- that argument feels odd to me.  It would be like saying we all know McDonalds isn't perfect, they got their flaws, and yeah maybe they can make a mean chicken sandwhich, I trust them on that front but I don't think making burgers fast is their thing. 

 

2 hours ago, mistertim said:

But in order to do that you'd have to be truly dedicated to the guy and to basically rehauling your offense and philosophy to fit his skill set. 

 

 

Scott's system is basically Norv's system.  Rivera has mentioned that Norv is very involved with helping the offense, he's been at multiple practices, etc.  He's run an offense just like you are talking about and not that long ago.  Scott was in Carolina too.  The thing with Cam in Carolina wasn't that they tried to pigeonhole him into being a pocket passer -- instead it was they went a bit too heavy with RPOs-RPO and eventually he broke.

 

It's like me driving automatic for years.  Then switching from that to stick for 5 years and being considered really really good at it.  Then I switch back to automatic because I have an automatic car but then get a new sports car that requires me to drive stick again and some dude tells me how are you going to drive stick?  I'd respond dude, I drove stick for years.  And that guy just won't let it go and keeps saying you are driving an automatic car now so what do you know about stick?  That's the best analogy I can come up with as why the debate feels a bit strange to me. 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 7, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

But when he was hired in January, Heinicke said Turner adjusted to the team’s versatile playmakers and dual-threat quarterback, not the other way around. “Here’s the best thing I can say about Norv to kind of put a bow on it,” said tight end Greg Olsen. “He doesn’t look at it like ‘I’ve got to find guys to run my offense the way I’ve run it for 30 years in the NFL.’ “He views his role is to take what he has, utilize what the skill sets of those players are, and do what they do well.” That’s just a sign of Turner’s flexibility and creativity, said Heinicke. But that’s only part of what has made this Carolina Panthers offense so explosive over the past three weeks.

 

 

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/nfl/carolina-panthers/article221130220.html#storylink=cpy

 

 

According to Football Outsiders DVOA metric, Carolina had the 17th ranked offense in 2017 — something that shouldn’t happen with a dual-threat quarterback as good as Cam Newton. After bringing in Turner as offensive coordinator, the offense has improved to No. 5 this season season.

Having a former MVP at quarterback in Cam Newton obviously helps, but the Panthers are doing a good job of calling plays that accentuate the talent they have on offense. One of the big ways they’re doing it is through the use of ball fakes and motions that distract defenders.

 

...Cam Newton forces defenses to defend one extra guy

Newton’s running prowess has made him one of the more difficult quarterbacks to defend since he came in the league in 2011. One of his signature plays is the bootleg.

Most quarterbacks aren’t keeping a bootleg for themselves because most of them simply don’t have the athletic prowess to run away from defenders — Newton does. Carolina fakes a power play with McCaffrey, but Newton keeps the ball on the backside of the formation and runs in for a touchdown.

 

https://www.sbnation.com/2018/11/1/18045092/carolina-panthers-offense-plays-cam-newton-norv-turner-fake-defenses

Edited November 6, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[clskinsfan]

2 hours ago, Redskins Reparations said:

I am still beating the drum for Kenny Pickett.  He looks like the most pro-ready QB in college football in my opinion.  Today against Duke was just another day at the office:

28/43  416 yards  3 TD  0 Int

Pickett is my guy as well. I saw nothing today to change my mind on that. Next Thursday Pickett and Howell go head to head. Howell had a great dual threat game today. He played very well as well. 

 

Check out the perfect 50 yard bomb Pickett throws around the 1:25 mark in these highlights. IMO Pickett is a NFL ready day one starter. 

 

 

Carson Strong is on at 10:00 tonight in case anyone was wondering. 

Edited November 6, 2021 by clskinsfan

[Skinsinparadise]

Look I get Norv is a Coryell guy, just like Gibbs.  And there was concern that he'd pigeonhole Cam that way but it didn't happen.  Heck some credit Norv for Cam landing in NE, Norv apparently pushed him to Belichick.

 

Hurney the same GM who is here now, is the one who drafted Cam.   Rivera was the coach.  They adapted the Auborn offense to Cam.  Will they be willing to do what Kyle did with RG3?  Carolina did it BEFORE Kyle did.  Even Kyle admitted at the time, that he noticed in the mix of what Carolina did with Cam. 

 

Like or not like Rivera, I think most can agree he's not dumb.  And its not hard for me to pick up when he talks about his stint in Carolina how big Cam was to the success there.  I've also heard him gush about how hard it is to stop a dual threat QB.    I think if anything he's looking for a QB who is dynamic everything being equal. 

 

https://www.espn.com/blog/carolina-panthers/post/_/id/17996/auburns-gus-malzahn-new-early-cam-newton-had-a-chance-to-be-one-of-the-best-ever

He’s a true weapon," Malzahn said. “He puts tremendous pressure on defenses with his legs. The way he’s throwing the ball right now, you can tell he’s got good timing with the receivers, he’s got great command of the offense."

Carolina offensive coordinator Mike Shula knew little about the run-option scheme that Newton has perfected before taking over in 2013. But through talking with Malzahn and members of his staff, he’s adapted much of what Newton did at Auburn into his pro-style attack.

“There’s some similarities," Malzahn said. “But at the same time, they’ve added little flares to what they’re doing. They’ve got it going on.

“It looks to me like they’re molding the offense around his strengths."

Edited November 6, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[clskinsfan]

7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I've also heard him gush about how hard it is to stop a dual threat QB.    I think if anything he's looking for a QB who is dynamic everything being equal. 

Pickett gives you this as well. Had a 30 yard rushing TD in todays game. He isnt gonna be WIllis with his legs. But he is a real threat running the ball as well. 

[Koolblue13]

13 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Look I get Norv is a Coryell guy, just like Gibbs.  And there was concern that he'd pigeonhole Cam that way but it didn't happen.  Heck some credit Norv for Cam landing in NE, Norv apparently pushed him to Belichick.

 

Hurney the same GM who is here now, is the one who drafted Cam.   Rivera was the coach.  They adapted the Auborn offense to Cam.  Will they be willing to do what Kyle did with RG3?  Carolina did it BEFORE Kyle did.  Even Kyle admitted at the time, that he noticed in the mix of what Carolina did with Cam. 

 

Like or not like Rivera, I think most can agree he's not dumb.  And its not hard for me to pick up when he talks about his stint in Carolina how big Cam was to the success there.  I've also heard him gush about how hard it is to stop a dual threat QB.    I think if anything he's looking for a QB who is dynamic everything being equal. 

 

https://www.espn.com/blog/carolina-panthers/post/_/id/17996/auburns-gus-malzahn-new-early-cam-newton-had-a-chance-to-be-one-of-the-best-ever

He’s a true weapon," Malzahn said. “He puts tremendous pressure on defenses with his legs. The way he’s throwing the ball right now, you can tell he’s got good timing with the receivers, he’s got great command of the offense."

Carolina offensive coordinator Mike Shula knew little about the run-option scheme that Newton has perfected before taking over in 2013. But through talking with Malzahn and members of his staff, he’s adapted much of what Newton did at Auburn into his pro-style attack.

“There’s some similarities," Malzahn said. “But at the same time, they’ve added little flares to what they’re doing. They’ve got it going on.

“It looks to me like they’re molding the offense around his strengths."

I feel your frustration coming through. I wouldn't blame you if you started a " in defense of turner" thread.

[Skinsinparadise]

28 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

Pickett gives you this as well. Had a 30 yard rushing TD in todays game. He isnt gonna be WIllis with his legs. But he is a real threat running the ball as well. 

 

 Corral and Howell IMO are in a different class as runners.  I agree with @stevemcqueen1 that Howell's running might not translate the same way to the NFL.  I've made the same point before. 

 

Pickett has some wheels though I agree.   But I wouldn't consider him a running QB.   Corral and Howell like to take off a bit more.  Howell is almost at 600 yards.  Corral is just behind him with 500 plus.  Pickett at 177.    To my eyes, Corral looks to be the fastest runner of the three and the most elusive.  Howell breaks the most tackles. 

 

 

Edited November 7, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

15 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I feel your frustration coming through. I wouldn't blame you if you started a " in defense of turner" thread.

 

lol, its not even really about Turner and his playcalling.  But as an NFL fan I've heard to death that the criticism if any of Rivera with Cam is they relied too much on Cam's legs.   And being the RG3 freak I was at the time (2012), I recall reading all the stories about running QBs and how Cam and Carolina helped set some of that groundwork for the rest of the league to follow.   If you guys recall RG3 didn't like being compared to Cam, he wanted to be compared to Rodgers because he saw Cam as a running QB and Rodgers more of a pocket passer with mobility. 

 

Hyperbole here on my end to make a point -- the narrative that somehow they will be lost puppies scrambling how to deal with a running QB comes off weird.  If this is about angst on Rivera, OK, then if I have to turn this into a shot at Rivera maybe it would be something like all he knows to be successful in the NFL is to rely on a QB with legs?   

 

I get saying Colonel Sanders is no gourmet chef.  But this debate seems to be what does Colonel Sanders know about fried chicken?   

 

Yeah I know Rivera himself didn't call the offense.  But like here, he was the HC.  His same GM drafted Cam.  Their offensive coordinators (all of them) adopted their offense.  Their plan which they executed was to to have Cam run a heavy dose of Auborn's offense.  It wasn't some arcane story that few knew about.  It was all the rage back then. 

 

The kicker is they had a lot of success doing it.  So the idea that this isn't their thing seems a bit wild to me.  To me its much more likely the opposite.    Most like to go back to what worked before.  i wish everyone heard one of Ron's interviews when he talked about how hard it was to defend mobile QBs, and that wasn't long ago -- hearing that was the kicker for me. 

 

 

Edited November 7, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[clskinsfan]

11 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 Corral and Howell IMO are in a different class as runners.  I agree with @stevemcqueen1 that Howell's running might not translate the same way to the NFL.  I've made the same point before. 

 

Pickett has some wheels though I agree.   But I wouldn't consider him a running QB.   Corral and Howell like to take off a bt more.  Howell is almost at 600 yards.  Corral is just behind him with 500 plus.  Pickett at 177.    To my eyes, Corral looks to be the fastest runner of the three and the most elusive.  Howell breaks the most tackles. 

 

 

Agree completely. They are not designing the running game around him or calling very many running plays for him, although they do in the redzone. I will probably get laughed at but Pickett reminds me a lot of Josh Allen. Allen isnt looking to run. But when he does he can hurt you. Allen in bigger physically and has a bigger arm as well. But Pickett is a far more accurate thrower coming out than Allen was. 

[Skinsinparadise]

9 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

Agree completely. They are not designing the running game around him or calling very many running plays for him, although they do in the redzone. I will probably get laughed at but Pickett reminds me a lot of Josh Allen. Allen isnt looking to run. But when he does he can hurt you. Allen in bigger physically and has a bigger arm as well. But Pickett is a far more accurate thrower coming out than Allen was. 

 

Pickett, I've just watched two games, I recorded the game today but haven't watched it yet, strikes me a bit like an opportunistic runner, if there is a hole he goes for it or if he's flushed out of the pocket.   

 

Pickett's arm strength to me looks average maybe a hair below.  Speed looks slightly above average to my eyes.   I am not as jazzed as you are about him at the moment.  But like I said I haven't watched enough.  I like some of what I've seen. 

 

 

 

Edited November 7, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Ball Security]

6 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

I'd be stoked about that draft. But Ridder to the Lions? They're almost certainly going to have a top 3 pick, possibly even 1st overall. I just don't see Ridder as that level of prospect. I'd be more inclined to think they'd go with Corral, unfortunately.

They also have the Rams pick in the first.  He’d be the fourth QB taken in that scenario.