Heinicke Hive: The LEGEND of Taylor Heinicke Thread

[Simmsy]

10 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

Thanks, Dwayne! 

Unless we play a game against Haskins, you'll never see those words on this board ever again.

[Koolblue13]

10 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

People need to stop saying the reason folks want to replace him is because he's undrafted. 

 

 

Who has said that?

[kingdaddy]

1 hour ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

Thanks, Dwayne! 

It's almost like all scouts should learn something from this...Haskins comes from a D1 powerhouse program, has size, arm strength and virtually no intangibles. TH comes from ODU, has no size, a mediocre to below average arm and great wheels plus a good head on his shoulders and many positive intangibles. He's humble and appreciative. 

If a player can play then take a longer look at him over a guy that you think you can coach up out of his negatives.

Taylor Heinicke is a gift from the Heavens for this franchise and this fanbase. 

[petey hodge]

7 hours ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

Thanks, Dwayne! 

No sweat, bro!

 

 

Edited December 2, 2021 by petey hodge

[Califan007 The Constipated]

23 hours ago, Simmsy said:

Also, stop comparing him to Alex Smith, he's nothing like Smith. Don't think I forgot how depressed this board would get when we got behind with Alex Smith or had to go down the field and score to win. If we weren't winning by the half, the game was over.

 

 

Did you watch any of the 2020 season? lol...

 

"If we weren't winning by the half, the game was over."

 

- Against the Bengals: down 9-7 at the half...went on to win 20-9.

- Against the Cowboys: down 10-7 midway through the 2nd quarter...went on to win 41-16.

- Against the Steelers: down 14-3 at the half...went on to win 23-17.

- Against the Eagles: down 14-10 with 1 minute left in the first half...went on to win 20-14 and clinch the division.

 

 

Two losses in which Smith still lead the team out of a huge hole:

 

- Against the Giants: down 20-3 at the half. Smith brought the team back to a 20-23 score in the 4th.

        - Smith: 24/32 (!), 325 yds, TD. Also had 3 INTs though lol.

 

- Against the Lions: down 24-3 late in the 3rd, Smith brought team back to tie it up late in the 4th quarter 24-24, and then led another drive to tie it again, 27-27 with only 21 seconds left in the game. Chase Young's stupid roughing the passer penalty gave the Lions the ball on the 50 yd line...the Lions won on a 59 yard FG.

        - Smith: 38/55, 390 yds (!), 0 TDs, 0 INTs

 

 

Those criticisms of Smith from 2018 did not apply at all in 2020.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Califan007

[Skinsinparadise]

There was a dude who loved Alex Smith and became a WFT fan when we landed him, he hated me  in part because he saw me as lukewarm about Alex.  But I think he also missed my point on the subject.   I didn't think he was a top 10 type QB the way he gushed about him.  But my bigger point was it was a bad trade especially considering the big contract extension they gave him.  But the bad trade component for me was driven by I didn't think acquiring a good but not great 34 year old for draft capital and a young player was worth it considering I didn't think he'd take them to the promised land.  And I still don't in retrospect.

 

But Alex is a professional QB.  We've not had much of that here.  I know some hate Kirk.  But he was also a professional QB.   Other than those 2 -- we've not had much of that.  When Haskins was struggiling in 2020, I pounded the table to replace him with Alex.  Alex has the intangibles.  But also he knows where everyone needed to be lined up, he understood the playbook, the protections and they can actually run the offense the way it was meant to be run. 

 

The thing that we've not had is great QB under Dan.  Our Holy Grail is a QB who is in the 13-16 range give or take.  Slightly above average play.  Kirk at times was better than that.  Alex at times was better than that.  But they averaged somewhere in that range with Alex arguably being worse in the context of putting up good passing numbers whether it was yards or TDs and Kirk worse as far as being clutch.  I don't think either dude is a promised land type of QB IMO.  But both were competent and that's rare for this franchise.

 

As for how Heinicke fits in all of this?  I am not sure.  I am not hung up at all on him being undrafted.  Warner wasn't drafted.  Neither was Romo.  He's actually my favorite personality of all of the QBs we've had.  RG3 was fun but a bit arrogant and ultimately delusional and would throw players under the bus.  I met Kirk a couple of times and thought he was a super nice guy but he also as a personality is known to be a bit aloof.  Alex is a cool dude, can relate to people but he's also a bit subdued and reserved.  I was jazzed about Fitz because I love his bounce off the walls energy but too bad we couldn't see it.  Heinicke to me is more like Fitz, brimming with energy, lots of fun.

 

As a player, Its hard for to get over the lack of arm strength.  If he even had just average arm strength, I'd be sold.  As Riddick pointed out on the broadcast the concerns about Heinicke being the guy centers on arm strength when he pointed out how there was so little zip on an out route that the corner could close in on the throw and stop it.   His accuracy once worried me but he seems to have settled down to some extent as to sailing his balls high.  So I am stuck on arm strength.  Plus i want to see the full season sample.  I previously said half a season but the problem with that is we had 4 games where he was "meh".  So to wipe those games out of my mind, I want to see a bunch of good games.  I can take a bad game here and there.  But I don't want another medicore 4 game stretch at least from the standpoint of being sold.

 

I think he has the potential to be like 14-18 range QB.  I don't see anything that convinces me he's a top 10 QB.  But I got an open mind.  Will see. 

 

Edited December 2, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[tmandoug1]

But I got an open mind.

 

That's  the difference about you SIP.  Others just can't seem to do that on here and it baffles me.

[Simmsy]

3 hours ago, Califan007 said:

 

Did you watch any of the 2020 season? lol...

 

"If we weren't winning by the half, the game was over."

 

- Against the Bengals: down 9-7 at the half...went on to win 20-9.

- Against the Cowboys: down 10-7 midway through the 2nd quarter...went on to win 41-16.

- Against the Steelers: down 14-3 at the half...went on to win 23-17.

- Against the Eagles: down 14-10 with 1 minute left in the first half...went on to win 20-14 and clinch the division.

 

 

Two losses in which Smith still lead the team out of a huge hole:

 

- Against the Giants: down 20-3 at the half. Smith brought the team back to a 20-23 score in the 4th.

        - Smith: 24/32 (!), 325 yds, TD. Also had 3 INTs though lol.

 

- Against the Lions: down 24-3 late in the 3rd, Smith brought team back to tie it up late in the 4th quarter 24-24, and then led another drive to tie it again, 27-27 with only 21 seconds left in the game. Chase Young's stupid roughing the passer penalty gave the Lions the ball on the 50 yd line...the Lions won on a 59 yard FG.

        - Smith: 38/55, 390 yds (!), 0 TDs, 0 INTs

 

 

Those criticisms of Smith from 2018 did not apply at all in 2020.

I'll give you the Steelers game (one of my favorites) and I'll give you the Dalton led Cowboys. However, Burrow was doing well until our defense killed him and I can't give him the Eagles win. He barely beat a team that was TRYING to lose. They had to pull their QB because we couldn't pull it off any other way. 

[Going Commando]

Arm strength is important.  There are suites of coverage beater throws that are a part of the quality (and sometimes the not so quality) offenses in the NFL that we don't have access to because Taylor can't execute them.  These are explosive throws that are an important part of running a full and modern passing game.  Most defenses are zone heavy now, and the good ones have to be beaten rather than just hoping for breakdowns or counting on your good receiver winning his one on one match ups.  And if you are schematically limited, the good defenses will figure you out and actually be able to clamp down on the few things you do well.  When you can't really be explosive and keep DBs sitting back, then you have to be perfect in the much smaller field that is available to you, and it's just hard to be that consistent for anyone.   Even Brees had his issues with consistency in the last few years of his career and he is a true master.

 

But arm strength alone isn't enough to give up on a QB who is leading you well and running the system well.  You can still win with that kind of quarterbacking.  We're going to have to build around Taylor's limitations like the Saints did with late career Brees.  Dominant defense always helps.  And dominant run game, dominant receivers and tight ends, dominant OL etc.  Our passing game needs to be great between the numbers and on the perimeter put to ~15 yards and our run game needs to be good enough to overpower defenses even when they are scheming to stop it.  We need to keep our OL loaded, we need a third great back because two is proving to be not enough, and we need a full stable of tight ends and receivers so we can better weather injuries like the Thomas and Samuel ones that nearly crippled us.  And keep in mind our pass catchers are going to get hurt since we have to play in the middle zones.  But we should be able to do this since we're not spending on quarterbacks if we keep Taylor and commit to him.

[goskins10]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

There was a dude who loved Alex Smith and became a WFT fan when we landed him, he hated me  in part because he saw me as lukewarm about Alex.  But I think he also missed my point on the subject.   I didn't think he was a top 10 type QB the way he gushed about him.  But my bigger point was it was a bad trade especially considering the big contract extension they gave him.  But the bad trade component for me was driven by I didn't think acquiring a good but not great 34 year old for draft capital and a young player was worth it considering I didn't think he'd take them to the promised land.  And I still don't in retrospect.

 

But Alex is a professional QB.  We've not had much of that here.  I know some hate Kirk.  But he was also a professional QB.   Other than those 2 -- we've not had much of that.  When Haskins was struggiling in 2020, I pounded the table to replace him with Alex.  Alex has the intangibles.  But also he knows where everyone needed to be lined up, he understood the playbook, the protections and they can actually run the offense the way it was meant to be run. 

 

The thing that we've not had is great QB under Dan.  Our Holy Grail is a QB who is in the 13-16 range give or take.  Slightly above average play.  Kirk at times was better than that.  Alex at times was better than that.  But they averaged somewhere in that range with Alex arguably being worse in the context of putting up good passing numbers whether it was yards or TDs and Kirk worse as far as being clutch.  I don't think either dude is a promised land type of QB IMO.  But both were competent and that's rare for this franchise.

 

As for how Heinicke fits in all of this?  I am not sure.  I am not hung up at all on him being undrafted.  Warner wasn't drafted.  Neither was Romo.  He's actually my favorite personality of all of the QBs we've had.  RG3 was fun but a bit arrogant and ultimately delusional and would throw players under the bus.  I met Kirk a couple of times and thought he was a super nice guy but he also as a personality is known to be a bit aloof.  Alex is a cool dude, can relate to people but he's also a bit subdued and reserved.  I was jazzed about Fitz because I love his bounce off the walls energy but too bad we couldn't see it.  Heinicke to me is more like Fitz, brimming with energy, lots of fun.

 

As a player, Its hard for to get over the lack of arm strength.  If he even had just average arm strength, I'd be sold.  As Riddick pointed out on the broadcast the concerns about Heinicke being the guy centers on arm strength when he pointed out how there was so little zip on an out route that the corner could close in on the throw and stop it.   His accuracy once worried me but he seems to have settled down to some extent as to sailing his balls high.  So I am stuck on arm strength.  Plus i want to see the full season sample.  I previously said half a season but the problem with that is we had 4 games where he was "meh".  So to wipe those games out of my mind, I want to see a bunch of good games.  I can take a bad game here and there.  But I don't want another medicore 4 game stretch at least from the standpoint of being sold.

 

I think he has the potential to be like 14-18 range QB.  I don't see anything that convinces me he's a top 10 QB.  But I got an open mind.  Will see. 

 

 

Yea, the Alex dude didn't like many of us. I loved Alex the person but not the player at the cost we gave up. Once here, he became the best QB on the team for better or worse. I never wanted Haskins but did want them to give him a chance last year to start. He had shown some flashes at the end of 2019, enough I thought to give him a chance. 

 

I like Taylor. I like his attitude and his moxie. I also like he is learning. He was throwing a lot of high passes earlier but he seems to have gotten those down. He also seems to have toughened up. Your best attribute is availability. I was very concerned about that when he became the starter. But he has been tough as nails. He had some dud games early but the entire team did. You can see him growing each week. 

 

He and Scott have found a rhythm. Unlike many I am not nearly as down on Scott as an OC as some are. In fact I think if you asked any of the professionals who have been an OC they will tell you he is doing a great job. He has done a great job protecting the offense against Taylor's not so strong arm. He puts him position to use his strengths. He also changed philosophies midseason ala Joe Gibbs from throwing all the time to truly committing to the run game. That means sometimes running even when it's obvious. You have to believe you can run on anyone at any time. I really like he did not try to feature both Curtis Samuel and Logan Thomas since they were back. They had a good rhythm going. Adding two new pieces, even really good pieces, can take you out of that rhythm. But as the weeks go on and we get into divisional play, I expect both of them to get bigger and bigger parts in the offense. 

 

If we make the POs Taylor's arm may be harder to hide from. However, it's not impossible. And his instincts and intangibles help overcome the physical limitations. Taylor and Scott are doing the most with what they have. He could use another stud at WR although don't look now but Deandre Carter, who many did not want to make the team, myself included, is emerging as a legitimate #2. 

 

At this point, this is Taylor's team through the end of the year barring injury. Finish the season strong and while I hope thy make a move in the draft, he should come into next season as it's his job to lose. 

[srtman04]

Is there a way for "arm strength" to improve in any serviceable way?   Is it just a matter of hitting the weights on your throwing arm Or does this have to be some natural gift?  

[goskins10]

3 minutes ago, srtman04 said:

Is there a way for "arm strength" to improve in any serviceable way?   Is it just a matter of hitting the weights on your throwing arm Or does this have to be some natural gift?  

 

Maybe some of the people with actual coaching experience can provide better insight, but my understanding is yes an no. There are exercises and drills that can help increase arm strength without sacrificing accuracy. But in the end, it is what it is. 

 

And let me be clear, I am one of those who bring up arm strength a lot with Taylor but I also do not think is a deal breaker, not even close. It just has to be managed so they keep him in position to be successful. But it does mean there are some plays he just will not be able to make. Again, not the end of the world, it just needs to be managed. 

[Hogs 1991]

I wonder what this thread will be like if TH does the unthinkable and win it all ! 

[mistertim]

19 minutes ago, srtman04 said:

Is there a way for "arm strength" to improve in any serviceable way?   Is it just a matter of hitting the weights on your throwing arm Or does this have to be some natural gift?  

 

IMO not in an appreciable way. Arm strength is mostly genetic and a result of natural torque, etc. Guys with huge arms pretty much always had that. Guys with mediocre or weak arms are mostly going to keep weak arms. I can't think of any QB who had a mediocre arm coming out of college and suddenly developed a cannon in the NFL.

 

Yeah, you can tweak mechanics to improve it a little bit, but it's like vertical leap...you're limited by genetic potential. Sure, you can improve your vertical by an inch or two, but a guy with a 30 inch vertical will never be a guy with a 40 inch vertical. Likewise, a guy with a mediocre arm will never be a guy with a howitzer.

[mistertim]

23 hours ago, zskins said:

 

Another analogy- she has all the traits you are looking for but she is not pretty. I have a solution for that. Just turn off the lights and enjoy the sex.

 

 

Difference here is that whether you can get that super hot girl with all the intangibles isn't dependent on your looks, charm, or pocketbook. It's purely dependent on draft position. If you have a high enough pick (or can move up high enough) you can get that 9-10 range "girl".

[wit33]

 

 

It’s strange, I almost feel Heineke is in between a Russel Wilson and Drew Brees or if using Hall of famers is bothersome to some, Pennington and Tyrod Taylor. Heineke appears to read the field well which helps mitigate having a weaker arm (Brees and Pennington), BUT can use his legs at a   borderline elite level (Wilson and Taylor). He lacks the arm strength of Wilson and Taylor, but reads the field more like a pocket QB. I don’t think Russel Wilson reads the field well or at the level Heineke currently does. Maybe this is a crazy talk, as I’ll admit that ventures into an ignorance zone to some degree for me. That’s what my fan perspective has conveyed to me when watching Russ and I’ll throw Mahomes, Allen, and Jackson in that bowl as well. 
 

Im warming up to the idea that Heineke provides enough positive projectable variables to a game compromised in “soup of chaos” to win more situations than the other teams QB. He’s trending in direction of trusting him and at times expecting to make the play needed for that current situation.

 

Time remains to gather information, no conclusions for me to date. Encouraged, and I’m 100% on side of him competing and most likely winning the job against another QB or two next season. Can that change to targeting a MLB, RB or FS in the first or second round next year, maybe. 
 

Can he prove to have the right mix traits and intangibles and become the anomaly other fan bases will use 20 years from now? Who knows…. I’ll certainly be rooting for it to happen. 

Edited December 2, 2021 by wit33

[lovemaskins]

7 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Difference here is that whether you can get that super hot girl with all the intangibles isn't dependent on your looks, charm, or pocketbook. It's purely dependent on draft position. If you have a high enough pick (or can move up high enough) you can get that 9-10 range "girl".

[HigSkin]

Dan Orlovsky on First Take just called Heinicke the "little Tony Romo" and Dallas better be worried about WFT catching them if they keep losing.  😂

[mistertim]

6 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

 

It’s strange, I almost feel Heineke is in between a Russel Wilson and Drew Brees or if using Hall of famers is bothersome to some, Pennington and Tyrod Taylor. Heineke appears to read the field well which helps mitigate having a weaker arm (Brees and Pennington), BUT can use his legs at a   borderline elite level (Wilson and Taylor). He lacks the arm strength of Wilson and Taylor, but reads the field more like a pocket QB. I don’t think Russel Wilson reads the field well or at the level Heineke currently does. Maybe this is a crazy talk, as I’ll admit that ventures into an ignorance zone to some degree for me. That’s what my fan perspective has conveyed to me when watching Russ and I’ll throw Mahomes, Allen, and Jackson in that bowl as well. 
 

Im warming up to the idea that Heineke provides enough positive projectable variables to a game compromised of chaos to win more situations than the other teams QB. He’s trending in direction of trusting and at times expecting to make the play needed for that current situation.

 

Time remains to gather information, no conclusions for me to date. Encouraged, and I’m 100% on side of him competing and most likely winning the job against another QB or two next season. Can that change to targeting a MLB, RB or FS in the first or second round next year, maybe. 
 

Can he prove to have the right mix traits and intangibles and become the anomaly other fan bases will use 20 years from now? Who knows…. I’ll certainly be rooting for it to happen. 

 

It is.

 

Brees did not have a weak arm. Russel Wilson and Brees are hall of famers. The idea that Wilson doesn't read the field well is nuttier than squirrel poop. The idea that Heinicke reads the field better than Mahomes and Allen is almost equally as nutty but somehow even more hilarious.

 

Heinicke right now is playing more or less like a middle of the road QB. He's had some good games, some bad games, but it's not like he's unstoppable and lighting it up for 400 yards and 4 TDs per game. He's a game manager. Now, there's nothing necessarily wrong with that. But comparing him to some of the greats to play the position is ridiculous.

 

I'm still giving TH the rest of the season, but I'm guessing that a middle of the road QB is not exactly what Ron and the FO have in mind. Sure, if they draft a guy, have an open competition. But pretty please stop comparing Heinicke to some of the best ever.

 

(Though to your credit you didn't compare him to Brady, so there's that I guess).

[wit33]

30 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

It is.

 

Brees did not have a weak arm. Russel Wilson and Brees are hall of famers. The idea that Wilson doesn't read the field well is nuttier than squirrel poop. The idea that Heinicke reads the field better than Mahomes and Allen is almost equally as nutty but somehow even more hilarious.

 

Heinicke right now is playing more or less like a middle of the road QB. He's had some good games, some bad games, but it's not like he's unstoppable and lighting it up for 400 yards and 4 TDs per game. He's a game manager. Now, there's nothing necessarily wrong with that. But comparing him to some of the greats to play the position is ridiculous.

 

I'm still giving TH the rest of the season, but I'm guessing that a middle of the road QB is not exactly what Ron and the FO have in mind. Sure, if they draft a guy, have an open competition. But pretty please stop comparing Heinicke to some of the best ever.

 

(Though to your credit you didn't compare him to Brady, so there's that I guess).

Why so much attention on the names? The first sentence, I said “if it’s bothersome to some”, then let’s use Pennington and Tyrod Taylor. I use Wilson and Brees because those are names often brought up, which is to be expected, because those are guys us fans are familiar with and feel we can draw comparisons to. 
 

I’ll resign to fact I’m much more down on Wilson than most (top 10 guy versus top 5 is all I’m saying). Maybe because he’s been consistently atrocious against Washington over the years. He’s a dude you can shut down, especially as the offense over the years has trended away from being a legit dual threat, which he no longer is at a high level. 
 

I’ll stand on my view that Mahomes, Allen, and Jackson don’t  read the field at good to great level (subjective view). They are part of the new breed of QB that is read low to high or high to low, then scramble drill and be great. They require their coaches to provide rhythm through play calling not them reading and dissecting the defenses. Nah man, they’re not those dudes in terms of reading a defense… yet. Open to being proven wrong as I’ve said I’m in uncharted territory with these views. 
 

You appear to have come to a conclusion about Heineke, I haven’t. I’m rooting for the extreme anomaly and hope he’s the next Jeff Garcia, Tony Romo, Rich Gannon, or Russel/Brees  Yes, Brees had a weak arm— it’s huge reason why he always struggled with interceptions and had three consecutive years in his prime of not making the playoffs. 

Edited December 2, 2021 by wit33

[lovemaskins]

^^^ I like the Jeff Garcia comparison. If that’s his ceiling, we can definitely win with that. May not be super bowl caliber but it’s serviceable for awhile allowing Rivera to build a solid team and potentially gives us a cheap QB salary

Edited December 2, 2021 by lovemaskins

[Renegade7]

17 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

Who has said that?

 

Well, for starters, the post right above mine...

 

On 12/1/2021 at 6:10 AM, Simmsy said:

The only reason why we're even debating whether he should start next year is because he was undrafted. 

 

 

[Koolblue13]

Just now, Renegade7 said:

 

Well, for starters, the post right above mine...

 

 sorry, I definitely missed that. I only read this thread occasionally.

 

That said, what a dumb premise. Nobody cares about draft position, once you're drafted. 

[skinsfan93]

1 hour ago, srtman04 said:

Is there a way for "arm strength" to improve in any serviceable way?   Is it just a matter of hitting the weights on your throwing arm Or does this have to be some natural gift?  

Yes you can improve arm strength. It’s not about building your muscles in your arm but in your hips and legs. Heinicke is young enough and hasn’t played much football the last few years, that I think he can improve it. I don’t think he will ever be Mahomes. He can also improve his footwork so he is throwing more upright rather than bending over. Better arm angle is helpful. 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

Heinicke right now is playing more or less like a middle of the road QB. He's had some good games, some bad games, but it's not like he's unstoppable and lighting it up for 400 yards and 4 TDs per game. He's a game manager. Now, there's nothing necessarily wrong with that. But comparing him to some of the greats to play the position is ridiculous.

 

 

That's how I see it.    If someone wants to make the argument that he can be a 16-18 range kind of QB, i could see the potential for that.  I see nothing that makes me think a top 10 or even top 12 type.   Right now, we are winning with ball control.  Great run game -- play action.  As Rivera said recently they are getting LBs to bite and in turn opening up high percentage throws up the middle.    As far as making big passing plays, I heard today on a podcast we are near the bottom of the league.  As for YPA, Heinicke is near the bottom.  PFF's deep passing grade below -- he's not rated that hot.

 

Love the dude.  Love the story.  I want to fall in love with the player.  But my gut right now is his ceiling is to be a middle of the pack Qb -- i definitely think that goal is within reach.  But I don't think we got our own Russell Wilson or name that stud. 

 

Most national anaylists, including some ex-GMs who have commented on it have said they'd keep Heinicke, he's a major asset, but they'd also keep swinging at the QB spot, too.  That's kind of where I am at still.   Maybe my mind will change after the season but for now I am not in the rest easy we got our guy mode just yet. 

 

 

 

Edited December 2, 2021 by Skinsinparadise