Next Day Thread (Same Day Edition): WFT vs. Panthers

[CTskin]

@stevemcqueen1 I’ve been a big fan of the Rivera hire since day 1, but I do see some of your points. I hated going for 2 against the giants, I hated last week’s qb-handling debacle, Scott turner is not doing well, etc... 

 

But it’s an unallowable stretch for you to attempt to blame anyone other than dwayne for the immature person and bad football player that he currently is. This is the sad mindset of too many people these days- trying to point fingers and not taking responsibility. To be honest, I’m hoping your posts are just trolls because that would be less disappointing then if u truly hold that opinion.

[Silvernon]

I actually like what Scott Turner is doing. Feels as if he was handcuffed most of the year with Dwayne. 

 

A lot of quick passes early on to the sidelines to get the defense running and tired out. Lots of power running. Seeing the benefit in the second half.

 

I've only seen a quarter of the games in full, so take it for what it's worth. 

 

 

[Warhead36]

17 minutes ago, Silvernon said:

I actually like what Scott Turner is doing. Feels as if he was handcuffed most of the year with Dwayne. 

 

A lot of quick passes early on to the sidelines to get the defense running and tired out. Lots of power running. Seeing the benefit in the second half.

 

I've only seen a quarter of the games in full, so take it for what it's worth. 

 

 

I've seen more good than bad as well. No playcaller is perfect. I remember this fan base being angry at Kyle Shanahan and Sean McVay too. If you nit pick every playcall than there are always going to be WTF calls by EVERY coach in the league. But the plan is pretty sound, we just lack talent across the board on offense outside of McLaurin and Gibson(and maybe Thomas).

 

I want to see what Turner can do with more legitimate talent and an actual off season to work on things.

[Going Commando]

2 hours ago, @SkinsGoldPants said:

Turner should send Haskins a fruit basket this week for taking the focus off the game he called. 

 

The coaching staff used him as a scapegoat this season and it worked.  In a microcosm: that second INT at the end of the half, it's a bad leverage situation where we have to go downfield to have a chance to score.  A four verts type of situation.  Why then are Sims and Thomas running to the same spot, such that they actually picked each other?  It was scrappy play design and a worse call and it led to failure, and a failure that only Haskins was blamed for.

 

That entire game, most of the only passing plays that went for downfield yardage were broken back yard football improvisations that Haskins and Heineke winged.

 

Haskins is gone now and I don't know if there is a similar appetite to accept another scapegoat.  The staff is going to actually have to do a good job now and win.

[KDawg]

3 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

The coaching staff used him as a scapegoat this season and it worked.  In a microcosm: that second INT at the end of the half, it's a bad leverage situation where we have to go downfield to have a chance to score.  A four verts type of situation.  Why then are Sims and Thomas running to the same spot, such that they actually picked each other?  It was scrappy play design and a worse call and it led to failure, and a failure that only Haskins was blamed for.

 

That entire game, most of the only passing plays that went for downfield yardage were broken back yard football improvisations that Haskins and Heineke winged.

 

Haskins is gone now and I don't know if there is a similar appetite to accept another scapegoat.  The staff is going to actually have to do a good job now and win.

He wasn’t a scapegoat. He was bad and deserved what criticism he received for his attitude, choices and play.

 

But there are certainly issues that the coaching staff needs to correct moving forward.

 

The two things are separate and can both be true.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

2 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

The coaching staff used him as a scapegoat this season and it worked. 

Yeah, I mean after all - being 'human' just wasn't good enough, he had to be super-human to appear competent in your world.  🤣

 

Rivera better pull himself up by the bootstraps to try to appear competent as there is nobody left to mask his deficiencies, phew. 

[Warhead36]

12 minutes ago, KDawg said:

He wasn’t a scapegoat. He was bad and deserved what criticism he received for his attitude, choices and play.

 

But there are certainly issues that the coaching staff needs to correct moving forward.

 

The two things are separate and can both be true.

Exactly. He was terrible. The staff knew it but still allowed him an opportunity to play(maybe by mandate from the owner, who knows).

 

Sure it wasn't an ideal process, but he could have changed minds. He didn't have to play like Pat Mahomes, but he was absolute trash and was one of the worst QB performances in the last decade. If he was even Jason Campbell this team is going to the playoffs and he might even have his job secured for 2021.

 

Its amazing the hill some people choose to die on....

[86 Snyder]

[Going Commando]

12 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Its amazing the hill some people choose to die on....

 

What's amazing to me is how this fanbase always buys into new coaches as saviors and always focuses only on the players for team failures.  Preach patience and benefit of the doubt for the FO and never for the players.  I got this same kind of **** for pointing out concerning problems at the beginning of the Shanahan and Gruden regimes too, I'm used to it.  People don't want to hear about the mistakes being made and structural problems taking shape in the new regime until years later and the losses have piled up.

34 minutes ago, KDawg said:

He wasn’t a scapegoat. He was bad and deserved what criticism he received for his attitude, choices and play.

 

But there are certainly issues that the coaching staff needs to correct moving forward.

 

The two things are separate and can both be true.

 

He was immature and didn't handle adversity well, but he was put into position to fail and he failed.  I don't think there are many QB prospects that could have succeeded in these circumstances.

 

A big issue with the coaching staff that needs to be fixed moving forward is the head coach turning every half of football that his QB plays into a referendum on his future with the team.  There is no quarterback that can succeed under that condition.  It's a basic and costly coaching failure.

[86 Snyder]

Just now, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

What's amazing to me is how this fanbase always buys into new coaches as saviors and always focuses only on the players for team failures.  Preach patience and benefit of the doubt for the FO and never for the players.  I got this same kind of **** for pointing out concerning problems at the beginning of the Shanahan and Gruden regimes too, I'm used to it.  People don't want to hear about the mistakes being made and structural problems taking shape in the new regime until years later and the losses have piled up.

 

It IS possible to evaluate Haskins independently from the coaching staff.  He was absolutely terrible.  You got it wrong and are refusing to come to terms with that.

 

I have concerns with the coaching staff and their decisions on a micro level.  There have been a few head scratchers for sure but overall the team and culture are changing in a very positive way.  Thats enough for now.  I'm not sure the coaching staff is the one I'd want with a real Super Bowl contender but I do think its the right regime to get the boat headed in the right direction which is a monumental task from where we are.  Maybe they can grow along the way too.  Maybe not.  For now I just want a respectable team.

[KDawg]

11 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

What's amazing to me is how this fanbase always buys into new coaches as saviors and always focuses only on the players for team failures.  Preach patience and benefit of the doubt for the FO and never for the players.  I got this same kind of **** for pointing out concerning problems at the beginning of the Shanahan and Gruden regimes too, I'm used to it.  People don't want to hear about the mistakes being made and structural problems taking shape in the new regime until years later and the losses have piled up.

 

He was immature and didn't handle adversity well, but he was put into position to fail and he failed.  I don't think there are many QB prospects that could have succeeded in these circumstances.

 

A big issue with the coaching staff that needs to be fixed moving forward is the head coach turning every half of football that his QB plays into a referendum on his future with the team.  There is no quarterback that can succeed under that condition.  It's a basic and costly coaching failure.

The answer is simple: he didn’t want Haskins to begin with. And had no stake in his development. The guys who he was drafted to didn’t want him either. 
 

It’s a Snyder failure. 

[Jabbyrwock]

9 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

What's amazing to me is how this fanbase always buys into new coaches as saviors and always focuses only on the players for team failures.  Preach patience and benefit of the doubt for the FO and never for the players.  I got this same kind of **** for pointing out concerning problems at the beginning of the Shanahan and Gruden regimes too, I'm used to it.  People don't want to hear about the mistakes being made and structural problems taking shape in the new regime until years later and the losses have piled up.

 

To be fair, fans aren't blindly buying in as you are implying.  The win total has doubled. We are in contention for a playoff spot.  We've drafted fairly well (even beyond Chase).  The team has certainly picked up a more resilient attitude (though we now have a slow start thing).  And we did all this while retaining an enormous amount of cap.  So its not blind faith; there is certainly evidence and results to back it up.

[Skinsinparadise]

I am glad the Haskins saga is over.  I put maybe 90% of the issue on Dan.  10% on Haskins.    Hopefully Dan learned his lesson and won't override the team's scouts moving forward and creating this type of strife.   As for Haskins hopefully he learns to commit to his craft.  This is one in a zillion stories about how he doesn't put in the time -- local, national sources and even a dude from his Ohio State days have discussed this.  I think he's a nice guy but immature and unprofessional.  I have doubts he makes it.  If it was all on everyone else than that point is being missed by the NFL at large considering according to multiple natiional reporters there is very little buzz or interest in Haskins around the league. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/12/29/dwayne-haskins-daniel-snyder-washington-football-team/

In the weeks before the 2019 NFL draft, a division arose in the Washington front office over whom to take with the 15th pick. Owner Daniel Snyder wanted Ohio State quarterback Dwayne Haskins, while most of the team’s coaches and executives did not, multiple people with knowledge of the deliberations say.

 

The movement against Haskins was so strong that team president Bruce Allen tried to convince Snyder to change his mind, only to be overruled. Just months earlier, quarterback Alex Smith had suffered what was presumed to be a career-ending leg injury. Snyder, many of those involved say, wanted to take Smith’s replacement in the first round and had become intrigued by Haskins, who played at Bullis School in Potomac, Md., imagining a star with the natural draw of having a background in the Washington area.

 

...“You don’t want to be the pet of the owner, especially this owner,” said one person familiar with the dynamics of how Haskins was chosen.

 

Mostly, though, his Washington tenure was filled with odd incidents such as missing the final snap of his first NFL victory because he was taking selfies with fans, or the photos that emerged last week of him partying maskless, a violation of league coronavirus protocols. There were loads of complaints by frustrated coaches on two staffs who were stunned by his constant late arrivals to meetings, failure to master the playbook and refusal to prepare for games as diligently as NFL quarterbacks must. Several around the organization questioned his ability to lead and repeatedly said poor throws in practice would carry over into games.

 

 

What annoyed members of both Gruden’s and Rivera’s staffs, people familiar with their thinking say, is that Haskins was not rude or indifferent. They never described a player who was arrogant, despite such suggestions outside team headquarters. Instead, they seemed confused as to why he wouldn’t do the things most quarterbacks do instinctively — arrive early to the team facility, sit for hours in meetings and study opponents deep into the night.

 

...Some of Haskins’s supporters have been confused at times, too. Speaking on the condition of anonymity so as to not break his trust, three of them paint a picture of a player who has never had great self-awareness and has had trouble adjusting to the NFL. All say Haskins is sincere in his vows to be a good NFL quarterback and wants badly to be seen as dependable and responsible.

 

One said Haskins is perhaps too talented for his own good, able to rely for so long on his arm that he never learned to struggle the way most quarterbacks do until he got to the NFL, which left him trying to create work habits that others form in college.

“I’m not sure he understands the grind of being an NFL quarterback,” one said.

 

These friends say Haskins seems unsure how to act around a team, failing to notice that things such as photo-bombing the winning quarterback, as he did to Baltimore’s Lamar Jackson after a loss to the Baltimore Ravens this season, would irk his coaches.

Haskins told coaches that, as the only Black man in the quarterback meeting room, he felt uncomfortable not because of anything anyone said but that the coaches wanted him to be more like Smith and Kyle Allen when he didn’t feel anything like either player. A person close to Rivera said Haskins never brought these concerns to the coach.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

13 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

What's amazing to me is how this fanbase always buys into new coaches as saviors and always focuses only on the players for team failures.  Preach patience and benefit of the doubt for the FO and never for the players.  I got this same kind of **** for pointing out concerning problems at the beginning of the Shanahan and Gruden regimes too, I'm used to it.  People don't want to hear about the mistakes being made and structural problems taking shape in the new regime until years later and the losses have piled up.

There is truth to this for sure.  However, those same fans turn on coaches as well.   I've never been a fan of the 'coach-centric' model.  I would much prefer to start with a legitimate GM and let them hand-select the coach.  I've been beating the same drum for years that the change must start at the very top and work downward from there.  

 

The difference here is I'm normally the one sticking up for the coaches, pointing to the dysfunctional FO setup and the constant drama that permeates from within.  That the dysfunction makes it very difficult for any head coach to succeed much less sustain it.  That you can bring anyone into a Dan/Bruce or Dan/Vinny led organization, and inevitably they will end up failing.  Their positives will eventually recede and their negatives will eventually only get worse.  It's the product of what happens in a poorly ran organization.

 

To tie this back to Ron, while the setup is not ideal - it's addition by subtraction.  Losing a rotting layer of the organization like Bruce Allen and instilling that power to Ron Rivera is a positive no matter how you chop it up.  How positive, you got me - that remains to be seen.  Could it all go down in flames? Certainly, as everyone before him as met the same fate.

 

Was drafting Dwayne to a lame duck head coach that had zero interest in him a totally Dan thing to do? Of course.

Was this a less than an ideal scenario for Dwayne? Yes.

 

But at the end of the day, I don't see how anyone can say with a straight face after watching Dwayne's actions both on and off the field, can point the overwhelming majority of the blame back to anyone but Dwayne.  He has been absolutely dreadful and did absolutely nothing to change the narrative off the field.  He's been so bad that I've wondered if he's trying to be terrible on purpose to get released.  I love a good ole Dan Snyder's ownership thrashing just as much as anyone, but at the end of the day, Dwayne did nothing to support having any arguments in his favor.

 

 

[Going Commando]

29 minutes ago, 86 Snyder said:

 

It IS possible to evaluate Haskins independently from the coaching staff.  He was absolutely terrible.  You got it wrong and are refusing to come to terms with that.

 

I have concerns with the coaching staff and their decisions on a micro level.  There have been a few head scratchers for sure but overall the team and culture are changing in a very positive way.  Thats enough for now.  I'm not sure the coaching staff is the one I'd want with a real Super Bowl contender but I do think its the right regime to get the boat headed in the right direction which is a monumental task from where we are.  Maybe they can grow along the way too.  Maybe not.  For now I just want a respectable team.

 

That is what I don't understand.  If you don't really believe in your FO, including the coaching staff, then why support them?  That's just not how you build a championship caliber team.  Square one is hiring the FO and coaching staff you believe in to lead you to championship level contention.  I don't think it's realistic to fix these kinds of structural issues in a rebuild on the fly.  They are important things you have to get right at the beginning.

[86 Snyder]

12 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

That is what I don't understand.  If you don't really believe in your FO, including the coaching staff, then why support them?  That's just not how you build a championship caliber team.  Square one is hiring the FO and coaching staff you believe in to lead you to championship level contention.  I don't think it's realistic to fix these kinds of structural issues in a rebuild on the fly.  They are important things you have to get right at the beginning.

 

I just think our franchise is rotten to the core that we need good people in leadership positions more than anything.  I truly believe we were the most rotten organization in sports...I guess you could argue the Knicks but they don't have all the courtroom baggage hanging over their head.

 

So for THIS franchise, I'm okay with the current structure built around a very high character personality who can inspire and lead.  If we were the Falcons or Lions or literally any other franchise I'd agree with your sentiment but this place needed a deep fumigation just to begin.  And as everyone knows hes been to the Super Bowl so hes already proven hes capable of getting there.  I think hes not a great Xs and Os guy and Turner is unproven, but we can always replace the OC if it's not panning out.  

[Est.1974]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I am glad the Haskins saga is over.  I put maybe 90% of the issue on Dan.  10% on Haskins.

50/50

 

Half Dan for the original decision.

 

Half Haskins for failing so badly. He has more talent that we’ve seen. Sadly, someone who can’t be motivated in an environment where the HC is fighting cancer in front or your eyes, and your fellow QB has returned following one of the most devastating sporting injuries known, well, words fail me. That’s warrants more than 10%.

 

But we should avoid this becoming a Haskins thread.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 minute ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

50/50

 

Half Dan for the original decision.

 

Half Haskins for failing so badly. He has more talent that we’ve seen. Sadly, someone who can’t be motivated in an environment where the HC is fighting cancer in front or your eyes, and your fellow QB has returned following one of the most devastating sporting injuries known, well, words fail me. That’s warrants more than 10%.

 

But we should avoid this becoming a Haskins thread.

 

I can go with that.

 

Listening to Heinicke's college's coach right now on the radio, this dude really does a nice job selling him, 4.6 speed, super sharp, clutch, etc.   He's saying he's the only QB he's coached who is a 5 read guy.  The others are 1-2 reads.  But he's smart and quick and can run through his progressions fast.  He knows Scott Turner well and is saying he's a great match to his offense. 

[Est.1974]

It does make you think Allen and Heinicke could have real value as #2 and #3 next season.

[Chris 44]

7 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

It does make you think Allen and Heinicke could have real value as #2 and #3 next season.

How many starting quarterbacks make it through an entire season unscathed? The value of having dependable backups is huge.

[KillBill26]

It's funny to me some of the criticism RR is getting as "GM".  I think he has done as good a job as we could possibly hope for:

 

- parted ways with the malcontents: TW, dunbar, guice, and now haskins.  Not only do we not have to deal with these knuckleheads anymore, but it sends a clear message: shape up or ship out.

- brought in a significant amount of talent at a modest price tag: young, gibson, kurl, fuller, KPL, lucas, schweitzer, darby, logan thomas, etc.  Not to mention potential of others to play a vital role on this team: hudson, k allen, and s charles, etc  If anyone was expecting more return on investment from a crop of draft picks and free agents, you are delusional.  

- we are going into week 17 controlling our own destiny.  Obviously due to a historically weak division, but we have had a team that has continued to fight week in and week out, even when they were 2-7. Every season from any team, even elite teams, you can nit pick in game decisions, so I'm not losing any sleep over going for 2 vs nyg or anything like that.  And if Scot turner hasn't been as good as we hoped, does that really outweigh all the good RR has done in his short time here?  And the way this team is being molded, we don't need a light up the scoreboard type OC.  Turner was progressing nicely when he had a competent QB, and before AG and TM went down.

- Think about where our franchise was one year ago today, and how far they've come in a relatively short time.  And you want to fire RR??  Delusional.

 

[Chris 44]

9 minutes ago, KillBill26 said:

It's funny to me some of the criticism RR is getting as "GM".  I think he has done as good a job as we could possibly hope for:

 

- parted ways with the malcontents: TW, dunbar, guice, and now haskins.  Not only do we not have to deal with these knuckleheads anymore, but it sends a clear message: shape up or ship out.

- brought in a significant amount of talent at a modest price tag: young, gibson, kurl, fuller, KPL, lucas, schweitzer, darby, logan thomas, etc.  Not to mention potential of others to play a vital role on this team: hudson, k allen, and s charles, etc  If anyone was expecting more return on investment from a crop of draft picks and free agents, you are delusional.  

- we are going into week 17 controlling our own destiny.  Obviously due to a historically weak division, but we have had a team that has continued to fight week in and week out, even when they were 2-7. Every season from any team, even elite teams, you can nit pick in game decisions, so I'm not losing any sleep over going for 2 vs nyg or anything like that.  And if Scot turner hasn't been as good as we hoped, does that really outweigh all the good RR has done in his short time here?  And the way this team is being molded, we don't need a light up the scoreboard type OC.  Turner was progressing nicely when he had a competent QB, and before AG and TM went down.

- Think about where our franchise was one year ago today, and how far they've come in a relatively short time.  And you want to fire RR??  Delusional.

 

In addition to what you said i fully belive that this team is for the first time in a long time a team that will attract free agents. I also feel that a full off-season, after having a year to evaluate the current roster, is also going to be huge.

[Skinsinparadise]

55 minutes ago, KillBill26 said:

It's funny to me some of the criticism RR is getting as "GM".  I think he has done as good a job as we could possibly hope for:

 

- parted ways with the malcontents: TW, dunbar, guice, and now haskins.  Not only do we not have to deal with these knuckleheads anymore, but it sends a clear message: shape up or ship out.

- brought in a significant amount of talent at a modest price tag: young, gibson, kurl, fuller, KPL, lucas, schweitzer, darby, logan thomas, etc.  Not to mention potential of others to play a vital role on this team: hudson, k allen, and s charles, etc  If anyone was expecting more return on investment from a crop of draft picks and free agents, you are delusional.  

- we are going into week 17 controlling our own destiny.  Obviously due to a historically weak division, but we have had a team that has continued to fight week in and week out, even when they were 2-7. Every season from any team, even elite teams, you can nit pick in game decisions, so I'm not losing any sleep over going for 2 vs nyg or anything like that.  And if Scot turner hasn't been as good as we hoped, does that really outweigh all the good RR has done in his short time here?  And the way this team is being molded, we don't need a light up the scoreboard type OC.  Turner was progressing nicely when he had a competent QB, and before AG and TM went down.

- Think about where our franchise was one year ago today, and how far they've come in a relatively short time.  And you want to fire RR??  Delusional.

 

 

Both the FA and the draft are looking good. 

 

Rivera hasn't been perfect but he had to deal with a lot of crap in his first season.  The one constant that all beat guys have said is the players love him and buy into him.   

 

The Haskins saga was a dysfunctional problem that Ron inherited.  Haskins shouldn't have been here from the start.    For Ron to release versus reward a dude who I've heard numerous times shows up late to meetings, doesn't prepare enough for games, celebrates stats after loses, broke COVID protocol twice and played poorly -- that to me is on brand for Ron as a dude arriving to improve the culture as oppposed to double down on the toxic culture he inherited.

 

As for Scott Turner, I have not studied his scheme yet.  I'll do it after the season.  Cooley who has studied the scheme suggested its different and more expansive when Haskins isn't in the lineup because they can open more of the playbook. 

 

Overall Rivera IMO did a really nice job in season 1.  Not perfect but who is?

[86 Snyder]

9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Both the FA and the draft are looking good. 

 

Rivera hasn't been perfect but he had to deal with a lot of crap in his first season.  The one constant that all beat guys have said is the players love him and buy into him.   

 

The Haskins saga was a dysfunctional problem that Ron inherited.  Haskins shouldn't have been here from the start.    For Ron to release versus reward a dude who I've heard numerous times shows up late to meetings, doesn't prepare enough for games, celebrates stats after loses, broke COVID protocol twice and played poorly -- that to me is on brand for Ron as a dude arriving to improve the culture as oppposed to double down on the toxic culture he inherited.

 

As for Scott Turner, I have not studied his scheme yet.  I'll do it after the season.  Cooley who has studied the scheme suggested its different and more expansive when Haskins isn't in the lineup because they can open more of the playbook. 

 

Overall Rivera IMO did a really nice job in season 1.  Not perfect but who is?

 

Honest question- what will you do to study the scheme?  I'd like to know your process.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 minute ago, 86 Snyder said:

 

Honest question- what will you do to study the scheme?  I'd like to know your process.

 

I am no expert to say the least.  So this isn't a professional take for studying a scheme.  I would do the same thing I did when I studied the D line, post clips per downs and see what they do and look for patterns  1st and 10.   3rd and long.  3rd and short, etc.

 

Offense is much more complex than doing the D line.  I do the simple stuff.  Game situations.   Spread.  Tight formation?  RO.  RPO.   Personnel groups.  11?  12? etc.  When do they go play action. Run from the gun?  Run from under center.   I know some route combination concepts but not a heck of a lot.     But really what I do the most is to see if the scheme gets guys open, and I'll freeze those frames.   Nothing too crazy.   It helps a lot when Warren Sharp releases his book every summer.  He gets into all the major offenses tendencies -- its great material.