OC - Scott Turner incoming

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 hours ago, FrFan said:

 

Ok, so what Mr. Sharp gave his analysis that he thinks Scott Turner will be beneficial because since he got there, they used the middle of the field more, threw a lot to RBs, and threw on early downs, and embraced more of the analytic approach which other teams are doing.

 

I think it's important to note that Norv Turner's offense, from the time he was OC in Dallas for championship teams through last year has been predicated on balance, especially on early downs, throwing to TEs (Moose Johnson anybody?) and using seem routes in the middle of the field (all his teams have done this forever, I can see Michael Irvin running interior routes, slants and skinny posts in my nightmares), involving the RB (Darren Sproles in SD, along with a long list of others)...

 

So, while these things might all be analytic focused, it's also stuff that Norv has been doing for going on 30 years. Maybe the analytics have caught up to Norv.  But none of this is remotely new.  

 

 

EDIT: I'm also not discounting Sharp's overall point that Turner is going to do these things and that's a net positive.  I just get a little irked at times by some of the analytic guys claiming victory for some things which have been trends for 50 years. And I'm an analytics guy. 

Edited January 18, 2020 by Voice_of_Reason

[FrFan]

13 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

EDIT: I'm also not discounting Sharp's overall point that Turner is going to do these things and that's a net positive.  I just get a little irked at times by some of the analytic guys claiming victory for some things which have been trends for 50 years. And I'm an analytics guy. 

During the last four games he coached it seems like Scott likes to switch from  zone base schemes to gaps, adapting to opponents. I believe that will be the key to his success here, adapting and avoiding being predictable.

How a Notebook Has Helped Cam Newton Overhaul His Learning Strategy

Edited January 19, 2020 by FrFan

[Voice_of_Reason]

Good stuff in here.

 

Also, JP was on with Kevin and said that Scott Turner interviewed with both Ron and Dan. Kevin went a little nuts because Dan was seemingly involved in some part of the football operations, however I dismiss this (in my opinion) overreaction on the following grounds:

 

1. You have to include the owner, especially this owner, or else they start meddling in ways you don't want them to meddle. Include them in the process, they give their opinion and leave you alone.  Exclude them, and they start trying to find ways to get involved.  Marty basically told Dan to get the **** out of the building, and you see what happened.  Joe included Dan, and Dan basically let Joe do whatever he wanted.  One way works, one way doesn't.  Ron seems to be smart enough to know which way works. 

 

2. Dan fired Scott's father.  That's a thing.  It would be only natural for the guy who fired the dad to have a chat with the son to make sure that wasn't going to be a problem.  Scott is now entrusted with the offense and the development of Haskins, and is essentially tied for the second most important coach on the team behind Rivera with Jack Del Rio, so making sure there aren't any ill feelings from childhood is probably a good idea.  Even if the conversation is like:

 

Dan: Hey Scott.  So, when you were a senior in HS, I fired your dad with a winning record.  

Scott: Yeah, I remember that. 

Dan: How does that make you feel?

Scott good answer: "I personally don't think it was the right decision, but it's a business, and I get it."

Scott bad answer: "You stuck him with Jeff George, tried to influence the way the team was coached, and then fired him when he couldn't solve what you screwed up.  I spent the next 10 years sticking pins in Dan Snyder shaped voodoo dolls you stupid arrogant ass."  

 

3. All the evidence points to Dan really liking Kevin O'Connell, so Ron giving Scott an opportunity to talk to Dan and convince him that Scott is the better choice removes the "I told you so" angle from the owner if for some reason it doesn't work out.  

 

EDIT: Homework, when it comes out, you should listen to the Sheehan Pod with JP.  He was on for Redskins at 8, so hour 2 of the show.  The pod isn't up yet.  But will be shortly.

 

EDIT2: Check that, they're posted.  There's actually one specifically with the JP interview. 

Edited January 20, 2020 by Voice_of_Reason

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

Al Galdi (Team 980) is freaking out over this. Lol

 

Doc Walker isn't bothered by this and frankly, I'm fine with it as well....

[SoCalSkins]

So Dan wanted to meddle and influence KOC getting the job. Kind of forcing him on Ron. Ron absolutely did not want KOC and wanted his own guy. No one saw that coming....
 

I will accept your apologies one at a time or in bulk. Whatever is easier. Thanks! 

[Voice_of_Reason]

34 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

So Dan wanted to meddle and influence KOC getting the job. Kind of forcing him on Ron. Ron absolutely did not want KOC and wanted his own guy. No one saw that coming....
 

I will accept your apologies one at a time or in bulk. Whatever is easier. Thanks! 

Or he didn't, but as I outlined above, there was a legitimate reason for Dan talking to Scott, and Ron got the guy who was more impressive. 

 

Ron said numerous times he was impressed with Kevin O'Connell, but apparently both he and Turner interviewed for the job, and Ron chose Turner.  Additionally, Ron asked Pat Schurmer to interview, so it was clear he wanted to talk to people outside the building as well as KOC.  

 

So, my guess is after Ron had made his decision, Scott talked to Dan.  Dan said "ok."

 

I am really failing to see what the problem is here.

 

And as I mentioned above, this is extremely savy, next level "manage your boss" stuff from Ron.  If you get Dan bought in on Turner, then IF it fails, he can't come at you and say, "I told you to hire KOC.  Now look what you've done.  I TOLD YOU SO.  So, from now on, I'm picking your assistants."   By including Dan in the process, Dan's as invested as Ron, and that is a VERY GOOD THING. 

 

Now, the problem would be if Ron wanted Turner and Dan forced him to take KOC.  But that DIDN'T HAPPEN.

 

For all those that think the owner of an NFL franchise is just going to never have a conversation about anything, you're nuts. All owners are going to be involved.  And I imagine most owners would like to have a chit-chat with the son of a HC who was fired in-season.  It's just good business practice.  

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, BRAVEONAWARPATH said:

Al Galdi (Team 980) is freaking out over this. Lol

 

Doc Walker isn't bothered by this and frankly, I'm fine with it as well....

The issue is that everybody wants Dan basically to go away because they think he's the root of all of the problems, and any conversation he has, no matter what, is either sinister at worst or unproductive at best.

Galdi and Kevin are on the "Go to the Bahamas, don't say a word to Ron, don't say a word to Kyle, don't say a word to anybody, don't do anything, just GET OUT." 

 

And that is just completely unrealistic.  

 

Also there is this: an informed owner is actually a better owner.  

 

But the narrative which somebody put out is that the 'Skins will start winning when the non-football people stop making football decisions."  Which is fine.  But that doesn't mean the owner needs to be locked in a box and excluded from everything.  Because then when you NEED the owner to do something, like, for example, FIRE BRUCE ALLEN, it takes him a million years for him to to figure out he actually has a problem, and has a move he has to make. 

 

No, I prefer Dan to be educated and informed on the goings on.  I like the fact that he is listening to Ron, and Ron has gotten his way on everything, but at the same time Dan is bought in.

 

I see this as the best possible scenario.

 

Honestly, I can see a point of view from Dan where he regrets turning over SO much power to Bruce, and essentially being uninformed, and only getting information from one source.  And he has determined that while he is fine letting Ron run the show, he at least wants to know what's going on so that if they go 3-13 again, at least he has some idea that it's coming.

 

Look-it, ExtremeSkins had a thread titled "0-5, tell me it can't happen" because the fan base looked at the schedule, the team, the coaches and players, and said, "damn, 0-5 is really likely."  In fact, a lot of people said that was the most likely outcome, or 1-4 IF they could beat the Giants, which looked like the only winnable game.   

 

And NOBODY in the organization thought it was even a possibility, and they were blindsided by it.  I'm willing to bet at least one of the people who was on this counsel of folks Dan talked to told him that not only is your organization a disaster, it was predictable, and you're asleep at the wheel, you big diminutive sized dummy.  I mean, if it's so obvious that national folks are predicting 4-12 to 5-11, and idiot fans (like me) are asking whether it's more or less likely to go 0-5, it's freaking obvious.  

 

And I could see a point of view from Dan where he says to himself, "Self, I'm not going to be blindsided again. I need to know what's going on."  This, btw, would be progress.  

 

So until I hear Dan is actually MAKING decisions and overruling Ron, or others, making first round QB picks again, or delivering vanilla ice cream to Jack (btw, I still think he was right and that was funny, even if it was a complete dick move), I'm not going to care a bit.  

 

When that happens, I'm going to care a whole lot and I'm going to roast him for it with a vengeance and furious anger.  But it hasn't happened yet.  

[SoCalSkins]

2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Or he didn't, but as I outlined above, there was a legitimate reason for Dan talking to Scott, and Ron got the guy who was more impressive. 

 

Ron said numerous times he was impressed with Kevin O'Connell, but apparently both he and Turner interviewed for the job, and Ron chose Turner.  Additionally, Ron asked Pat Schurmer to interview, so it was clear he wanted to talk to people outside the building as well as KOC.  

 

So, my guess is after Ron had made his decision, Scott talked to Dan.  Dan said "ok."

 

I am really failing to see what the problem is here.

 

And as I mentioned above, this is extremely savy, next level "manage your boss" stuff from Ron.  If you get Dan bought in on Turner, then IF it fails, he can't come at you and say, "I told you to hire KOC.  Now look what you've done.  I TOLD YOU SO.  So, from now on, I'm picking your assistants."   By including Dan in the process, Dan's as invested as Ron, and that is a VERY GOOD THING. 

 

Now, the problem would be if Ron wanted Turner and Dan forced him to take KOC.  But that DIDN'T HAPPEN.

 

For all those that think the owner of an NFL franchise is just going to never have a conversation about anything, you're nuts. All owners are going to be involved.  And I imagine most owners would like to have a chit-chat with the son of a HC who was fired in-season.  It's just good business practice.  

 

Dude it’s the honeymoon period after Dan being thoroughly embarrassed and hitting what he perceives as rock bottom yet he’s interviewing coordinators with the “single voice of the franchise”.

He obviously wanted to double down on his draft pick and give him his comfort blanket in KOC. Ron may have won the battle this round because of the honeymoon but the meddling this early is a horrible sign. That’s how we ended up with Zorn and how we lost the Shanahans.

[Warhead36]

Every owner is involved in some way. Remember, Bob Kraft traded Jimmy Garapolo against the wishes of Bellicheck.

 

Snyder being in the meeting doesn't really bother me. If he forced O'Connell(or any other assistant)on Rivera, THAT would bother me.

[SoCalSkins]

1 minute ago, Warhead36 said:

Every owner is involved in some way. Remember, Bob Kraft traded Jimmy Garapolo against the wishes of Bellicheck.

 

Snyder being in the meeting doesn't really bother me. If he forced O'Connell(or any other assistant)on Rivera, THAT would bother me.

He had to be talked out of it in the honeymoon period, hence the fact he sat in on the interview. Doesn’t mean he didn’t try and no guarantee he will be as amenable next time once the newness wears off. The attempt alone should bother you...

[skinny21]

If I were the owner, even if I was planning on deferring to the HC 100%, I would be extremely interested to sit in on that interview purely to hear what the offense might look like.  Maybe I even come up with a couple of questions to ask.  As VOR suggested, I would also want to make sure there weren’t hard feeling and maybe even explain that I felt bad about that situation and I’ve come a long way since then.  
Because it’s Dan, I can’t assume it was completely innocuous, but I also can’t see him undermining Rivera just after hiring him (and all that came with that hire).  

[SoCalSkins]

3 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Because it’s Dan, I can’t assume it was completely innocuous, but I also can’t see him undermining Rivera just after hiring him (and all that came with that hire).  

Meaning you can foresee him undermining as soon as the honeymoon is over. So no real change...

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 hours ago, SoCalSkins said:

He had to be talked out of it in the honeymoon period, hence the fact he sat in on the interview. Doesn’t mean he didn’t try and no guarantee he will be as amenable next time once the newness wears off. The attempt alone should bother you...

You have no idea what he was talked into or out of.  All you know is he talked to Scott Turner.  He also knew KOC.  Ron chose Scott and Dan didn’t object.  He might not have even really had an opinion. You are projecting Dan had a position and had to be convinced.  But you have no reporting to support that.

 

All we know is he talked to a candidate he is probably paying north  of $500k to.  That seems pretty reasonable to me. 

All of the guys Dan was familiar with have been removed.  Bruce. Schaffer. Larry Hess.  KOC.

 

The only guy who’s here who Dan knew is Kyle Smith.  Otherwise it’s an entirely new cast of characters in leadership.

[SkinsFTW]

7 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

I am really failing to see what the problem is here.

 

 

 

 

[RWJ]

2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

You have no idea what he was talked into or out of.  All you know is he talked to Scott Turner.  He also knew KOC.  Ron chose Scott and Dan didn’t object.  He might not have even really had an opinion. You are projecting Dan had a position and had to be convinced.  But you have no reporting to support that.

 

All we know is he talked to a candidate he is probably paying north  of $500k to.  That seems pretty reasonable to me. 

All of the guys Dan was familiar with have been removed.  Bruce. Schaffer. Larry Hess.  KOC.

 

The only guy who’s here who Dan knew is Kyle Smith.  Otherwise it’s an entirely new cast of characters in leadership.

Plus, Ron worked with Kyle's Dad, A.J. Smith in SD when he was a coach there.  Thus, he knows Kyle. 

[Birdlives]

5 hours ago, SoCalSkins said:
Meaning you can foresee him undermining as soon as the honeymoon is over. So no real change...

 

Dan with Bruce undermined Mike Shanahan before he even knew what street he lived on. Mike said go get McNabb, but don’t pay too much. Dan and Bruce gave their division opponent a second round pick and drank champagne. Then they left Mike to pr the move. As ****ty as the Shanahans were they’ll always hold the high ground over Snyder, because Snyder has such a terrible reputation; sorry, let me correct that. If you expect Ron Rivera to fix this **** show, you are delusional. Joe Gibbs couldn’t fix this and he tried!

[SkinsFTW]

8 hours ago, RWJ said:

Plus, Ron worked with Kyle's Dad, A.J. Smith in SD when he was a coach there.  Thus, he knows Kyle. 

 

He also knows Buddy Ryan and Jim McMahon, therefore Doofus Dan isn't the first psycho he's been around.

[PlayAction]

The HC should always choose his own staff even if Kevin O'Connell is a budding super-star coach.  Skins have had two former OC/O assistants go on to coach teams in the Super bowl so losing talent isn't anything new.  But the HC can't have success if he can't work well with his own staff.  Gruden should never have been forced to keep some coaches if they weren't on the same page with him.

 

Personally I have always preferred the Dan Coryell offensive tree over many versions of the WCO so I'm looking forward to seeing how things work out.  Just fit it to what Haskins can do!

[HTTRDynasty]

 

[evmiii]

3 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

 

 

Wow, you could know absolutely nothing about football and understand this is bad.  I understand this was not all KOC, but he was involved enough to get the stink on him.  Ron R. had to make a change.

[Vanguard]

@FrFan

 

I appreciate the clip.  But could there be a more boring, uninteresting, and less credible show than The Daily Line?  And then when the little guy on there said Major League was a better Wesley Snipes movie than Blade, they completely lost me.

 

I like that they talk local sports sometimes.  But I hope the show gets canned.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

49 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

@FrFan

 

I appreciate the clip.  But could there be a more boring, uninteresting, and less credible show than The Daily Line?  And then when the little guy on there said Major League was a better Wesley Snipes movie than Blade, they completely lost me.

 

I like that they talk local sports sometimes.  But I hope the show gets canned.

 

Which Blade are we talking about here?  Blade 3?  Yes.  Blade 1 and 2, no, but they're such different genres it's hard to compare.  Major League is a fun sports movie that doesn't take itself too seriously.

 

But I've got one that I like more than those.  Demolition Man.

[Vanguard]

5 minutes ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

Which Blade are we talking about here?  Blade 3?  Yes.  Blade 1 and 2, no, but they're such different genres it's hard to compare.  Major League is a fun sports movie that doesn't take itself too seriously.

 

But I've got one that I like more than those.  Demolition Man.

Simon Phoenix was cool.  And yes Blade 1 and 2 outclass 3.  But at the time I think they were talking about Blade 1.  I liked Major League 2 better than 1.  Especially the disgruntled fan, he was hilarious.

[Jericho]

I don't know if Turner got the job based on any interview(s). I just find it weird that any team would base major personnel decisions largely from an interview. Yet it seems that many franchises, if not all, do that. But you want to hire people based on merit. And you have resumes and to some extent (depending on how much weight you want to give them) references. You should basically know what each candidate brings to the table. Yes, there's always an element of risk. But interviews don't really solve that. I acknowledge you should interview people as a final test, kind of a gatekeeper to see if there are any red flags. But generally the interview seems like you're going through the motions. The last thing you want to do is deter decision-makers from hiring the better employee. And interviews can often influence people to hire the person they liked more (perhaps for subconscious reasons or even biased ones) or the person who was more animated or funnier or energetic. Which just ends up with the inferior candidate.

[Hogs 1991]

Here is what I find interesting. After we’ve drafted players like Antonio Gibson and Antonio Gandy Golden, I’ve been combing the internet a little bit to see what kind of offense Scott Turner runs, or atleast get an idea of what his offensive philosophy is, so I can see whether or not said players fit his scheme. After doing some minor digging, I’ve find out that the Carolina Panthers, and Cam Newton for that matter, best offensive years came under the guidance of Mike Shula at offensive coordinator. So if Ron Rivera knows and have seen his best offensive performances under Mike Shula, what didn’t hire Mike Shula as offensive coordinator instead of Scott Turner ?