Welcome to the Redskins Chase Young DE Ohio State

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, PartyPosse said:

While I agree with the sentiment, I feel like in the last 3 or 4 years we’ve been pretty damn efficient at finding good players in the backend of the draft 

 

I agree.  You won't find a bigger cheerleader than me of Kyle Smith.  I've written an encyclopedia worth of material on how Bruce needs to go and why Kyle is the guy.  100% with you on this point.

 

1 hour ago, PartyPosse said:

we’ve been pretty damn efficient at finding good players in the backend of the draft and imo that’s what separates the meh teams from the great ones. Quality depth players on day 3 and udfa. Guys like Holcomb and Crowder and Harmon, Sims, Moreland, Roullier, Settle and Ion and Jarrett. M

 

I about 50% or so agree with this point.  I do think finding great players is part of what separates meh teams from the great ones.  Cooley really explains it well and that is the ripple effect of a great player can be contagious for the whole team, make other players better and build confidence.  There were good articles written about SF before the SB about how having a great TE, Kittle, made others on offense better.  Ditto Nick Bosa on defense.     Late round hits help but IMO you need more.

 

1 hour ago, PartyPosse said:

Most teams can look back at their top picks and play the hindsight game but what’s important is that outside of Doctson, our first rounders have been pretty damn efficient. You can look at the Chargers with James but their second rounder that year has been a bust, Forrest Lamp has been a bust. Teams rarely draft superstars unless they’re in a position to. We toiled in mediocrity for too many years leaving us always drafting in the 15-20 range.

 

Most of the cases I gave were teams finding superstars outside of the top 10.  I agree it helps to have a top 5 pick.  but we don't pull it off either way.  And other teams do.  Not often.  But from time to time.  Arguably Sean Taylor was our one go of it.  Maybe Trent but I'd put him on the fringe of it.   It's not the hindsight game always either.  I among others wanted Derwin James over Payne.  I recall many on the draft thread screaming about passing over Calais Campbell.  

Edited April 18, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[dyst]

We 100% struggle at finding elite talent. 

[Skinsinparadise]

11 minutes ago, dyst said:

We 100% struggle at finding elite talent. 

 

The irony is even Sean Taylor was according to Clinton Portis a bit of a fluke.  According to him, the FO was leaning towards taking Winslow until Portis who played with both him and Taylor talked them out of it and into taking Taylor. 

 

Heck I still think the one that goes under the radar is Demarcus Lawrence.  Dallas was hyped enough about him to trade with us of all teams, we made the deal and he's been their best pass rusher since Ware.  We go with Murphy who basically was just a little better than being just a guy.

 

Part of this team's demise under Dan IMO is definitely the lack of star power which I think has not only hurt the team's performance but also made it a really boring team that gets no national attention.  I thought Beckham had a really salient point when he was traded to the Browns saying that he saved the Giants box office wise during their recent down years because he was a fan favorite-draw.  

Edited April 18, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[PartyPosse]

34 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Most of the cases I gave were teams finding superstars outside of the top 10.  I agree it helps to have a top 5 pick.  but we don't pull it off either way.  And other teams do.  Not often.  But from time to time.  Arguably Sean Taylor was our one go of it.  Maybe Trent but I'd put him on the fringe of it.   It's not the hindsight game always either.  I among others wanted Derwin James over Payne.  I recall many on the draft thread screaming about passing over Calais Campbell.  

I think especially for in top 5 if a player is a bust then he’s gonna be a bust regardless of how they’re scouted. Usually, unless a team goes against the grain, players in the top 5 are almost always adored by scouts and draft pundits. You can always find ways to knock them but for the most part they’re busts without expecting them to be. Naturally you have your occasional flash in the pan QB that has a big year and then becomes a draft darling for their smarts and the GMs that pick them deserve all the criticism in the world (Trubisky immediately comes to mind), but I don’t know how many other teams considered Mitchell to go as high as he did. I know there was a lot of talk but I don’t know how serious it was.

 

once you’re picking outside of the then it becomes easier to find flaws. Those “well if this wasn’t the case with them they’d probably be drafted higher” scenarios. For us, our Achilles seems to be the second round. Best player we’ve drafted there in 10 years has been Preston Smith. Along the way it’s been guys like Amerson, Murphy, Cravens, Anderson, Jenkins. That to me has been the biggest problem.

 

Im also still not in the camp that in the long run James will be a better pick than Payne. I think it’s easier to stand out at a more glamour position but I think Payne has more influence on every play. 

[Skinsinparadise]

10 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

I think especially for in top 5 if a player is a bust then he’s gonna be a bust regardless of how they’re scouted. Usually, unless a team goes against the grain, players in the top 5 are almost always adored by scouts and draft pundits. You can always find ways to knock them but for the most part they’re busts without expecting them to be. Naturally you have your occasional flash in the pan QB that has a big year and then becomes a draft darling for their smarts and the GMs that pick them deserve all the criticism in the world (Trubisky immediately comes to mind), but I don’t know how many other teams considered Mitchell to go as high as he did. I know there was a lot of talk but I don’t know how serious it was.

 

once you’re picking outside of the then it becomes easier to find flaws. Those “well if this wasn’t the case with them they’d probably be drafted higher” scenarios. For us, our Achilles seems to be the second round. Best player we’ve drafted there in 10 years has been Preston Smith. Along the way it’s been guys like Amerson, Murphy, Cravens, Anderson, Jenkins. That to me has been the biggest problem.

 

Im also still not in the camp that in the long run James will be a better pick than Payne. I think it’s easier to stand out at a more glamour position but I think Payne has more influence on every play. 

 

James was special in his rookie season.   There are plenty of big time DTs who get plenty of attention. See Fletcher Cox. Donald.  Chris Jones.  Suh, Geno Atkins in their primes, etc.  Heck even if we are just talking purely as a run stuffers, guys like Damon Harrison get plenty of hype.  Even the Giants recent draft pick D. Lawrence gets some hype.   Payne's been good.  He's not been special IMO as a run stuffer or a pass rusher.  He's good.  He's not great.  He's not a star DT.  Maybe he will become great but he hasn't had a great season, yet. 

 

I agree the 2nd round has been miserable for the most part.  I am sticking to my position of the team struggles compares to most to find great-elite players.  I've made the same point many times in this thread and others.  So I don't feel like belaboring it too much. 

 

Edited April 18, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[dyst]

19 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

The irony is even Sean Taylor was according to Clinton Portis a bit of a fluke.  According to him, the FO was leaning towards taking Winslow until Portis who played with both him and Taylor talked them out of it and into taking Taylor. 

 

Heck I still think the one that goes under the radar is Demarcus Lawrence.  Dallas was hyped enough about him to trade with us of all teams, we made the deal and he's been their best pass rusher since Ware.  We go with Murphy who basically was just a little better than being just a guy.

 

Part of this team's demise under Dan IMO is definitely the lack of star power which I think has not only hurt the team's performance but also made it a really boring team that gets no national attention.  I thought Beckham had a really salient point when he was traded to the Browns saying that he saved the Giants box office wise during their recent down years because he was a fan favorite-draw.  

How does a team look at Trent Murphy and say “yep, now this guy looks like a 2nd rounder”

[Burgundy Yoda]

15 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

James was special in his rookie season.   There are plenty of big time DTs who get plenty of attention. See Fletcher Cox. Donald.  Chris Jones.  Suh, Geno Atkins in their primes, etc.  Heck even if we are just talking purely as a run stuffers, guys like Damon Harrison get plenty of hype.  Even the Giants recent draft pick D. Lawrence gets some hype.   Payne's been good.  He's not been special IMO as a run stuffer or a pass rusher.  He's good.  He's not great.  He's not a star DT.  Maybe he will become great but he hasn't had a great season, yet. 

 

I agree the 2nd round has been miserable for the most part.  I am sticking to my position of the team struggles compares to most to find great-elite players.  I've made the same point many times in this thread and others.  So I don't feel like belaboring it too much. 

 

Payne had a down year, after his rookie season his trajectory was looking really good. Reports coming out of camp was that he was dominating the second he walked on the practice field. 

 

I feel like it's scheme and maybe even Payne being out of position. He isn't big enough to be a space eater NT and that's kind of a waste of his talents because he isn't bad at all at rushing the passer. 

 

I'll be honest, our best DL are the two backups. Ioannidis and Settle to me look like better players. Settle disrupts the game every single time he comes in. Ioannidis has been our best interior pass rusher. I'm with you though, we definitely struggle at finding elite talent and the 2nd round has hot been friendly to us. I'm actually glad we didn't have one last year and don't have one this year, we just don't seem to get any steals in that round. 

[max21]

Can’t wait to draft this guy. I was kinda on the trade down get okudah and picks bus but now I’m back on the Young bandwagon. I can’t wait to see him sack Daniel Jones into another dimension 

[mistertim]

29 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

 

Im also still not in the camp that in the long run James will be a better pick than Payne. I think it’s easier to stand out at a more glamour position but I think Payne has more influence on every play. 

 

I agree with some of what you've been saying in your last few posts (especially about us being pretty good at getting quality guys in the mid to late rounds) but this I just can't agree with. James is an elite guy who is dangerous in so many ways and a guy that an offense has to account for no matter what. He can cover deep as a FS, he can cover shallow as more of a SS, he can rush the passer, he plays the run really well, tackles really well, and has a great nose for the ball. His only issue so far is injuries in his second season. We'll see how he recovers.

 

Payne is a good player but he isn't near the level of talent that Derwin James is. Payne so far has turned out to be exactly who I figured he'd be when we drafted him (after I finished screaming at the TV when we passed on James)...a very solid player with a high floor and so-so ceiling. Good against the run, ok at pass rushing. Quality starter but not a star and not a guy who teams really have to game plan around. 

 

I still believe we absolutely reached and drafted for positional need there with much better talent on the board. If we hadn't drafted Payne i think he almost surely would have fallen out of the 1st round. The fact that there were multiple reports of disagreements in the draft war room about whether to take James or Payne kinda solidifies that for me. 

 

[Burgundy Yoda]

30 minutes ago, dyst said:

How does a team look at Trent Murphy and say “yep, now this guy looks like a 2nd rounder”

Imo we play it safe in the 2nd. It always seems like we're just looking for solid contributors for the most part and not boom/bust type of players. This is how you end up with the Ryan Andersons, Preston Smith's (who actually is probably out best 2nd rounder in a while) and the Trent Murphy's. 

[PartyPosse]

13 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I agree with some of what you've been saying in your last few posts (especially about us being pretty good at getting quality guys in the mid to late rounds) but this I just can't agree with. James is an elite guy who is dangerous in so many ways and a guy that an offense has to account for no matter what. He can cover deep as a FS, he can cover shallow as more of a SS, he can rush the passer, he plays the run really well, tackles really well, and has a great nose for the ball. His only issue so far is injuries in his second season. We'll see how he recovers.

 

Payne is a good player but he isn't near the level of talent that Derwin James is. Payne so far has turned out to be exactly who I figured he'd be when we drafted him (after I finished screaming at the TV when we passed on James)...a very solid player with a high floor and so-so ceiling. Good against the run, ok at pass rushing. Quality starter but not a star and not a guy who teams really have to game plan around. 

 

I still believe we absolutely reached and drafted for positional need there with much better talent on the board. If we hadn't drafted Payne i think he almost surely would have fallen out of the 1st round. The fact that there were multiple reports of disagreements in the draft war room about whether to take James or Payne kinda solidifies that for me. 

 

I do agree he was a bit of a reach but no way would he have fallen out of the first round. Granted there were only two more DL that went in that round, but i'm sure he would have gone.

In terms of James, interestingly, the team's defense actually got better the second year when he was injured. They gave up 400 less yards in the air but more on the ground. One year Bosa was healthy and one he wasn't. Just by going off the presence of those two players, (and granted it's a dumb way of comparing the seasons) Bosa's DL presence had a much more profound effect than Derwin's. 

 

I've always been a believer in the trenches and building out from there. With no OL or DL then everything on out suffers. It's like a ripple effect. So i had no problems with the Payne pick even with Allen and Ion already in the fold. I'm stubborn in the idea that top 5 picks if you have should be geared towards DL, LB, OL or QB. Unless there's a one-in-a-lifetime prospect it's never worth it. I like James, but i feel like safety is a position that can be learned in the nfl where the average player can become an above average safety if they're smart enough  and instinctual enough. It's why safeties rarely get picked high. I think like 11 in the last 5 years. 

[mistertim]

@PartyPosseI'm absolutely a believer as well in building from the trenches in general. But I'm also a believer that if you're on the board and you have a guy there who's has elite talent and could be a potential superstar you should take him over another guy who doesn't seem to have that elite potential but who fills a need (whether a specific need or general like the trenches). As far as Payne fallout out of the first, we just disagree. I remember reading scouting reports on him and most said the same thing...solid player, nothing flashy, mediocre production in college, with many giving him a 2nd round grade. 

 

Regarding James again, if you just look at him as a Safety and through a purely positional lens, then yes Safety is generally not as highly regarded as QB, EDGE, LT, etc. But James isn't just a Safety. He can play multiple positions, including blitzing, rushing the passer as an OLB, man coverage in the box as a SS/OLB, etc. I think James's success is one of the reasons Isaiah Simmons will likely go so high in this draft; he and James share many of the same skill sets and characteristics, and coaches saw how a good defensive scheme could turn a guy like that into an absolute game changer. 

[Skin'emAlive]

We were also coming off one of the worst rushing defenses in ages, and staring at both Zeke and Barkley in the division. Payne has been solid. James has played 1 season. Payne hasn’t missed a game. I don’t think it was a bad pick at all. 

[PartyPosse]

13 minutes ago, mistertim said:

@PartyPosseI'm absolutely a believer as well in building from the trenches in general. But I'm also a believer that if you're on the board and you have a guy there who's has elite talent and could be a potential superstar you should take him over another guy who doesn't seem to have that elite potential but who fills a need (whether a specific need or general like the trenches). As far as Payne fallout out of the first, we just disagree. I remember reading scouting reports on him and most said the same thing...solid player, nothing flashy, mediocre production in college, with many giving him a 2nd round grade. 

 

Regarding James again, if you just look at him as a Safety and through a purely positional lens, then yes Safety is generally not as highly regarded as QB, EDGE, LT, etc. But James isn't just a Safety. He can play multiple positions, including blitzing, rushing the passer as an OLB, man coverage in the box as a SS/OLB, etc. I think James's success is one of the reasons Isaiah Simmons will likely go so high in this draft; he and James share many of the same skill sets and characteristics, and coaches saw how a good defensive scheme could turn a guy like that into an absolute game changer. 

I honestly don't think there was a wrong choice. If James had his rookie season and then got injured, many here would be saying same ol same ol with this team - find a guy who's good and he gets injured. I agree about Payne, he's been solid not spectacular. But he's also turning only 23 i believe and he's steadily getting better. Even if given a 2nd round grade by some draft pundits, he's certainly exceeded that IMO so far. My opinion was that the team saw decent depth at safety in the draft and hoped to attack that later. Guys like Bates, Marcus Allen, Whitehead, Reid etc. If just never worked out and they drafted the wrong guy in Apke. 

 

I do wonder what they would have done had Minkah fallen to them at 13.

[98ORAKPO98]

 

Skins should have an even better/deeper defensive line than the 49ers next season. Young > Bosa, Kerrigan Sweat > Ford, Allen > Buckner (now a Colt), Ioannidis Payne > Armstead. Then the depth guys Settle, Brantley, Anderson, Brailford. We could be the new Purple People Eaters (Vikings) or Fearsome Foursome (Rams).

 

And if Reuban Foster is healthy, Thomas Davis plays like he did last year, Holcomb progresses on last season, Collins reverts to DPOTY form from his 2016 season in this new scheme, Darby is healthy and plays like a #1 CB like he did in Buffalo, Moreau plays like he did at the end of last season, Davis or Apke step up their play, and Jimmy Moreland and Danny Johnson live up to their potential, this could be the reincarnation of the 1985 Chicago Bears or 2000 Baltimore Ravens. Chase Young, Jonathan Allen, Reuban Foster, or Landon Collins will win DPOTY and lead the 2020 Redskins to their first Super Bowl title since 1991!!!! Ahhhhhhhh yes! HTTR and pass the crack pipe this way! Who's with me 😏

[Koolblue13]

4 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

I honestly don't think there was a wrong choice. If James had his rookie season and then got injured, many here would be saying same ol same ol with this team - find a guy who's good and he gets injured. I agree about Payne, he's been solid not spectacular. But he's also turning only 23 i believe and he's steadily getting better. Even if given a 2nd round grade by some draft pundits, he's certainly exceeded that IMO so far. My opinion was that the team saw decent depth at safety in the draft and hoped to attack that later. Guys like Bates, Marcus Allen, Whitehead, Reid etc. If just never worked out and they drafted the wrong guy in Apke. 

 

I do wonder what they would have done had Minkah fallen to them at 13.

I agree with all of that and was super excited thinking Fitz was gonna fall to us.

[PartyPosse]

12 minutes ago, Skin'emAlive said:

We were also coming off one of the worst rushing defenses in ages, and staring at both Zeke and Barkley in the division. Payne has been solid. James has played 1 season. Payne hasn’t missed a game. I don’t think it was a bad pick at all. 

I think that's a big part of it. We had just signed Swearinger and drafted Nicholson the year before. I don't think they viewed safety as dire as some of us did.

2 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I agree with all of that and was super excited thinking Fitz was gonna fall to us.

Honestly, so was I. I was really surprised Miami took him. I think they panicked when all the QBs were off the board and just went BPA. I honestly believe if Arizona didn't draft Rosen Minkah would have been a Redskin.

[Koolblue13]

10 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

I think that's a big part of it. We had just signed Swearinger and drafted Nicholson the year before. I don't think they viewed safety as dire as some of us did.

Honestly, so was I. I was really surprised Miami took him. I think they panicked when all the QBs were off the board and just went BPA. I honestly believe if Arizona didn't draft Rosen Minkah would have been a Redskin.

He is so ****ing good. 

 

As far as the James talk. I'm against drafting a SS in the top of the first, unless he's a total gamer, like James or Adams.

[bakedtater1]

33 minutes ago, 98ORAKPO98 said:

 

Skins should have an even better/deeper defensive line than the 49ers next season. Young > Bosa, Kerrigan Sweat > Ford, Allen > Buckner (now a Colt), Ioannidis Payne > Armstead. Then the depth guys Settle, Brantley, Anderson, Brailford. We could be the new Purple People Eaters (Vikings) or Fearsome Foursome (Rams).

 

And if Reuban Foster is healthy, Thomas Davis plays like he did last year, Holcomb progresses on last season, Collins reverts to DPOTY form from his 2016 season in this new scheme, Darby is healthy and plays like a #1 CB like he did in Buffalo, Moreau plays like he did at the end of last season, Davis or Apke step up their play, and Jimmy Moreland and Danny Johnson live up to their potential, this could be the reincarnation of the 1985 Chicago Bears or 2000 Baltimore Ravens. Chase Young, Jonathan Allen, Reuban Foster, or Landon Collins will win DPOTY and lead the 2020 Redskins to their first Super Bowl title since 1991!!!! Ahhhhhhhh yes! HTTR and pass the crack pipe this way! Who's with me 😏

You had me at pass the crack pipe this way.

Edited April 19, 2020 by bakedtater1

[dyst]

Was Rueban Foster even good when he was healthier and with the 49ers? Some have a lot of hope for him.

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

Payne had a down year, after his rookie season his trajectory was looking really good. Reports coming out of camp was that he was dominating the second he walked on the practice field. 

 

I am not down on Payne.  I like him, I just had two points about that pick.

 

A.  Payne thus far represents the typical Redskins player we get excited about.  He's one of our best players, he's a good player.  But he's not as of yet one of the best players in the league or some super star.  That's somewhat been the theme of this team under Dan.  We've had some nice players but no special ones sans Sean and maybe Trent.

 

B.  Many of us wanted Derwin James.  We skipped him.  He was a star at least his rookie year.  First team All Pro.  We don't do First Team All Pro.  We take Laron Landry over Adrian Peterson.   We take Carlos Rodgers over Demarcus Ware.  We take Trent Murphy and let Dallas get D. Lawrence.  We take Kerrigan and skip Watt.  We take Malcomb Kelly instead Calais Campbell. Devin Thomas instead of Jordy Nelson or Desean Jackson.  On and on and on.

 

I know some say its easy to say this with 20-20 hindsight.  My response to that is some of us liked these other players.  I've been part of the draft thread for a long time.  We've liked some of those guys.  But it wouldn't matter anyway.  The bar for our FO shouldn't be whether they are better draft pickers than the average fan -- we'd expect better than that.  They are supposedly the professionals.    It's one thing to get it wrong sometimes.  But they've passed on a lot of elite players that where right there for them to draft. 

 

And if If I recall correctly we are the only team without a first team All Pro player in the last 20 years aside from a punter.  Most have had multiple first team All Pros.  Heck the Lions have had a bad run like us.  But they had C. Johnson, Bernie Sanders. they've had some legendary players.  What legendary player have we had under Dan?  Really no one aside from Sean's brief career IMO. 

Edited April 19, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

48 minutes ago, dyst said:

Was Rueban Foster even good when he was healthier and with the 49ers? Some have a lot of hope for him.

 

Season 1 yes but not so much season 2.  He's an instinctive player who lives off his athleticism.  So I'd guess for him to thrive he'd need to regain his athletic form almost completely.

Edited April 19, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[kingdaddy]

2 hours ago, bakedtater1 said:

You had me at pass the crack pipe this way.

I saw one Skins player, I think it was Collins, when asked which defensive player would most surprise in 2020, answer........"Jimmy Moreland". He was emphatic about it.....I think Moreland is gonna be a great player, especially with good coaching and a staff committed to him. 

[98ORAKPO98]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I am not down on Payne.  I like him, I just had two points about that pick.

 

A.  Payne thus far represents the typical Redskins player we get excited about.  He's one of our best players, he's a good player.  But he's not as of yet one of the best players in the league or some super star.  That's somewhat been the theme of this team under Dan.  We've had some nice players but no special ones sans Sean and maybe Trent.

 

B.  Many of us wanted Derwin James.  We skipped him.  He was a star at least his rookie year.  First team All Pro.  We don't do First Team All Pro.  We take Laron Landry over Adrian Peterson.   We take Carlos Rodgers over Demarcus Ware.  We take Trent Murphy and let Dallas get D. Lawrence.  We take Kerrigan and skip Watt.  We take Malcomb Kelly instead Calais Campbell. Devin Thomas instead of Jordy Nelson or Desean Jackson.  On and on and on.

 

I know some say its easy to say this with 20-20 hindsight.  My response to that is some of us liked these other players.  I've been part of the draft thread for a long time.  We've liked some of those guys.  But it wouldn't matter anyway.  The bar for our FO shouldn't be whether they are better draft pickers than the average fan -- we'd expect better than that.  They are supposedly the professionals.    It's one thing to get it wrong sometimes.  But they've passed on a lot of elite players that where right there for them to draft. 

 

And if If I recall correctly we are the only team without a first team All Pro player in the last 20 years aside from a punter.  Most have had multiple first team All Pros.  Heck the Lions have had a bad run like us.  But they had C. Johnson, Bernie Sanders. they've had some legendary players.  What legendary player have we had under Dan?  Really no one aside from Sean's brief career IMO. 

Yeah Bernie Sanders was a great running back, but not so good presidential candidate. 😄

2 hours ago, dyst said:

Was Rueban Foster even good when he was healthier and with the 49ers? Some have a lot of hope for him.

Reuban Foster is the offspring of Ray Lewis, Brian Urlacher, Mike Singletary, and D!ck Butkus. Don't ask me how that happened 😃

 

But yes he was good for the 49ers and will be great here.

[spjunkies]

My sources are telling me that Chase Young will be the pick for the Washington Redskins in the upcoming NFL draft.