Disciplined, commitment to the run football back in DC and it works! Who knew?

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Callahan today! Callahan tomorrow! Callahan forever!

[Thinking Skins]

I think I've cooled on Callahan as the long term head coach, but I do like his style. So as Andre 3000 once said "you are the prototype". 

 

If that next guy is KOC, who I think is doing well with Haskins, then I hope he's taking more notes from Callahan  than from Gruden. Its not necessarily that Gruden was a bad coach in my opinion, but its small things, like the practices, the emphasis on the running game, the signing BLOCKING TEs, the signing a FB, the sending the BLOCKING TEs out to run routes, not thinking they'll be Reed or Davis but to make the offense look less predictable. How does Gruden openly admit that they weren't disguising the runs and passes with the TEs but then doesn't correct that? And then I'll say the excuses. I feel like (especially this year) Gruden was giving more and more excuses. And it seemed like he was becoming another Bruce Allen. And it sounds weird to tie Gruden to Bruce more than Callahan, but that's how it felt. Like with the penalties. I remember a reporter asking him to send a call to the refs to see if it was wrong and he was like what's the point. I understand that you're mad but if it wasn't wrong you need to understand what your guys did wrong to improve on that. 

 

But if the next guy is not KOC and is not Callahan, I don't want another Freddie Kitchens or Jim Zorn or Steve Spurrier. I'm afraid that the next guy we get will be some "sexy" hire who gets fans excited (whatever you call that) but doesn't have the work ethic or discipline to pull a team out of hard times. And I just look around the league at all the coaches on the hot seat and we have to remember that at one time or another all these guys were at the top of the pecking order and were considered the hottest things on the market. I look at Quinn in Atlanta and remember wanting him to come here but now I'm not so sure. 

 

What I want more than a hot young assistant who has this McVay type offensive system, is a Tomlin or John Harbaugh or even Frank Reigh (who I think is the reason Philly won a SB) guy who can install a winning culture and a winning atmosphere and keep it up when bad things happen or a wave of injuries happen.

 

And I look at Pittsburgh more than any other team as how I'd like my team built.

 - Few head coaches in their history. 

 - Cowher had his legacy built around a solid defense and a Jerome Bettis type running back. Several different QBs came through there and had moderate success before Big Ben ultimately won him one. 

 - Tomlin came in and continued what Cowher built on so people question his skills. And we've seen their defense drop and they became a more pass first system, but they still were building strong running games - look at guys like Bell, Conner, Snell and they are all coming in and producing. 

 - And this development of the running game is helping the passing game to flourish, even with its 3rd string QB this year who is an undrafted guy. 

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Too long.

 

Didn't read that!

 

Bruce Allen rules!

[Skinsinparadise]

6 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

But if the next guy is not KOC and is not Callahan, I don't want another Freddie Kitchens or Jim Zorn or Steve Spurrier. I'm afraid that the next guy we get will be some "sexy" hire who gets fans excited (whatever you call that) but doesn't have the work ethic or discipline to pull a team out of hard times. And I just look around the league at all the coaches on the hot seat and we have to remember that at one time or another all these guys were at the top of the pecking order and were considered the hottest things on the market. I look at Quinn in Atlanta and remember wanting him to come here but now I'm not so sure. 

 

 

I think they need to go sexy because they are bleeding fans in a way that they have't in the past.  Desperate times.   But I don't think sexy and undisciplined go hand in hand.  I got my doubts they land a sexy HC type anyway.   But plenty of HC types are noted for being disciplinary types.  I'd say give or take its about 50-50 as for coaches in the league who have that style versus not.  

 

 

 

 

[Thinking Skins]

11 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I think they need to go sexy because they are bleeding fans in a way that they have't in the past.  Desperate times.   But I don't think sexy and undisciplined go hand in hand.  I got my doubts they land a sexy HC type anyway.   But plenty of HC types are noted for being disciplinary types.  I'd say give or take its about 50-50 as for coaches in the league who have that style versus not.  

 

 

I think chasing the fans is the wrong way to go about it. If we hire a winning coach, the fans will come back. Even if we're a boring 6-3 like we were last year, give us that under a legit regime not named Bruce Allen and give us that for like 3 or 4 years in a row and fans will come back. 

 

I agree that sexy does not imply undisciplined. I just think that some of these younger guys are trying to be cutting edge and player friendly and less old school. I agree that I think its less likely to land a top sexy pick, but my fear is that they'll chase sexy and wind up with a Zorn/Spurrier/Kitchens who is neither sexy or disciplined. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Just now, Thinking Skins said:

 

I think chasing the fans is the wrong way to go about it. If we hire a winning coach, the fans will come back. Even if we're a boring 6-3 like we were last year, give us that under a legit regime not named Bruce Allen and give us that for like 3 or 4 years in a row and fans will come back. 

 

I agree that sexy does not imply undisciplined. I just think that some of these younger guys are trying to be cutting edge and player friendly and less old school. I agree that I think its less likely to land a top sexy pick, but my fear is that they'll chase sexy and wind up with a Zorn/Spurrier/Kitchens who is neither sexy or disciplined. 

 

OK I get the point.  I think one thing that has gone under the radar is the 6-4 start under Alex also was marked by poor fan attendance -- I recall the backdrop even around the Texans game was why aren't the fans coming.

 

I think the losing has obfuscated the idea some that the mediocre -unexciting football was chasing away fans, too.  The losing this year just accelerated it.  

 

I am not saying they should factor that but my point is they likely will factor it.  The people on this board are hardcore and live and die with every game but the casual fan is more fickle and I think they are burnt out on this team.

 

I do agree that Bruce leaving will create some buzz on its own.   As for the sexy offensive minded pick.  I think that would have to be someone like Lincoln Riley and it sounds like they'd have no shot at him.  I'd guess the type of candidates would be people like: Greg Williams, Rex Ryan, Todd Bowles, etc. 

 

[Malapropismic Depository]

34 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

Bruce Allen rules!

 

I like the culture you're building on ES

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

4 hours ago, Gibbs Hog Heaven said:

Having Darius Guice rack up 27.70 points to all but clinch another fantasy play-off season was the coup de grace to an excellent football Sunday. 😀

 

Hail. 

 

 

 

Moving to 13-0 in the ES League was even better

[Renegade7]

1 hour ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

I think chasing the fans is the wrong way to go about it. If we hire a winning coach, the fans will come back. Even if we're a boring 6-3 like we were last year, give us that under a legit regime not named Bruce Allen and give us that for like 3 or 4 years in a row and fans will come back. 

 

I agree that sexy does not imply undisciplined. I just think that some of these younger guys are trying to be cutting edge and player friendly and less old school. I agree that I think its less likely to land a top sexy pick, but my fear is that they'll chase sexy and wind up with a Zorn/Spurrier/Kitchens who is neither sexy or disciplined. 

 

Yall starting to lose me with this sexy talk.  I liked @Skinsinparadise post because nearly twice as many people in the DC area watched the Ravens play instead of Skins when they were on at the same time, and the Redskins won.

 

When I think sexy, and we should jus stop saying that because now it sounds awkward AF, is someone who is either proven or has massive potential.  We have to take into serious consideration not only how to maximize our talent but how to get people to come back if Allen is still here.

 

If they keep winning this year, hes coming back.

[Burgold]

1 hour ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

I think chasing the fans is the wrong way to go about it. If we hire a winning coach, the fans will come back. Even if we're a boring 6-3 like we were last year, give us that under a legit regime not named Bruce Allen and give us that for like 3 or 4 years in a row and fans will come back. 

I think it may be a little harder to woo fans than that. I used to think it was just about winning. I'm not so sure now. I think Bruce/Dan (but mainly Bruce) broke some unwritten compact between the community and the team. We were a miserable lot last year at 6-3 so it's not just about winning, but making people like the team again.

 

Part of that is certainly winning, but part of it has to be getting rid of the poison and the nonstop negative narratives and burning of bridges. Take the firing of Jay Gruden. I didn't hide the fact that I thought he needed to go, but Jay did nothing to deserve any bad mouthing or the video besmirching. He just failed. He elevated this team from rotten to below average before imploding this year. Instead, there seemed to be an effort to dirty his name to justify his firing. All that does is alienate people from the team. All you had to do was point at his record, sigh, and shake his hand.

 

The Redskins need to become likable. Luckily, we have a lot of likable players. I think Guice, McClauren, Allen, Payne, and others seem like solid football citizens. They're easy to root for and they're good.

 

This is why getting rid of Bruce is more important than X's & O's, Wins & Losses, or personnel. He's turned the fans off the team. The Cubs went a hundred years without a winning record and kept their fanbase intact. Bruce's ugliness and backstabbing, I think is more responsible for the shrinking fanbase than even the losing.

 

After all, you have to like a team to root for them.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

26 minutes ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

Moving to 13-0 in the ES League was even better

 

Congratulations. 

 

Enjoy your last week of perfection. 😜

 

Hail. 

[Burgold]

On topic, Brian Mitchell was talking about something on 980 that I've longed complained about. He said the best thing about the new start is the renewed concentration of practices. He said everything before had been too easy. College kids complained when they got here that their practices were much harder than Camp Jay. That softness translated to games. It further translated to players getting lazy and losing concentration.

 

I think that's one of the reasons why we are seeing better production out of the rookies. They still have work habits. They haven't been coddled by Jay. The question is whether a new coach can reach a lot of our vets and teach them to work hard and give a damn again. 

 

What we want are players that mirror the effort of Adrian Peterson. Players who want to out work, out hustle, and out do each other. Not guys who coast and demand their veteran days off and then whine if the intensity is turned up a bit. There is a balance, but I think Jay went too hard to make things easy on the players.

[Skinsinparadise]

25 minutes ago, Burgold said:

 

 

The Redskins need to become likable. Luckily, we have a lot of likable players. I think Guice, McClauren, Allen, Payne, and others seem like solid football citizens. They're easy to root for and they're good.

 

This is why getting rid of Bruce is more important than X's & O's, Wins & Losses, or personnel. He's turned the fans off the team. The Cubs went a hundred years without a winning record and kept their fanbase intact. Bruce's ugliness and backstabbing, I think is more responsible for the shrinking fanbase than even the losing.

 

After all, you have to like a team to root for them.

 

Great points.  I've made similar ones before.  The sleaze attached to this organization has really dampened them I think with the fan base.  If this was like like Chicago Cubs (before recent times) where the organization were lovable losers -- I think they'd be in better shape.   But them trying to sell their 8-8 more or less three year run from 2015-2018 doesn't have a lot of sway because they are both boring and sleazy.  And that combination I think has helped kill the brand and Bruce has been the centerpiece of that IMO.  

[MartinC]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I think they need to go sexy because they are bleeding fans in a way that they have't in the past.  Desperate times.   

 

If the thinking from Snyder (and maybe Allen) is that hiring a 'sexy' name coach will get fans excited I think they are badly misjudging the mood of the fan base. Again.

 

Setting aside the difficulty of attracting a 'name' coach with the current front office (Allen) in place whoever they hire is going to have pretty much zero honeymoon unless Allen has gone and a new GM is making the hire. Any coach in demand with options will realise that and stay away. Any coach who does not realise that is too dumb to hire.

 

If there is a new GM then that might change the dynamic a bit.

 

But under any scenario its going to take some sustained success (like winning the division and a playoff run followed by another winning season and playoff run) to get this bandwagon back on the road.

[Skinsinparadise]

3 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

If the thinking from Snyder (and maybe Allen) is that hiring a 'sexy' name coach will get fans excited I think they are badly misjudging the mood of the fan base. Again.

 

Setting aside the difficulty of attracting a 'name' coach with the current front office (Allen) in place whoever they hire is going to have pretty much zero honeymoon unless Allen has gone and a new GM is making the hire. Any coach in demand with options will realise that and stay away. Any coach who does not realise that is too dumb to hire.

 

If there is a new GM then that might change the dynamic a bit.

 

But under any scenario its going to take some sustained success (like winning the division and a playoff run followed by another winning season and playoff run) to get this bandwagon back on the road.

 

Oh yeah I don't believe this will be an easy journey for them.  I think they need to get rid of Bruce first.  And to generate some excitement whether it's the coach and or players and actually win.  They are in a deep hole and old school Dan selling new beginnings isn't going to work the way it once did. 

[Burgold]

Yep, once you lose the good will of a community you have a long march to win it back. I think it can be done. Firing Grunfeld did a bunch to bring back some Wiz fans, but that (or firing Bruce) is only a shot of adrenaline. It buys you a short reprieve. After that, you have to keep proving yourself.

 

What would be really curious to me is how the fanbase would respond if the Redskins fully embraced the Wizards/Capitals model. That is, fire the GM and hire internally. I think I would be okay with Kyle Smith  manning the front office, assuming we continue to build out our scouting. Kyle seems to have a pretty good eye for the draft. Can he do the whole job? Can he manage Snyder? I don't know. We do need to hit better on free agency. We also need to do better in making players feel wanted and loved and make this a destination players want to come to.

 

I think one thing I'd love to try is fire Bruce, promote Kyle, and get on my knees and get Brian Lafemina back. I think Brian was trying to rebuild relations with the fans. Swallowing face to bring him back would be a big step in the right direction. I have no idea if either of the parties would go for it though.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

42 minutes ago, Burgold said:

On topic, Brian Mitchell was talking about something on 980 that I've longed complained about. He said the best thing about the new start is the renewed concentration of practices. He said everything before had been too easy.

 

So, Brian Mitchell's belief is that the team needs to work harder.

 

That's fascinating because the only argument that Brian Mitchell ever makes is that the losing team didn't try hard enough.

 

in order to succeed at football, you need to play football as hard as Brian Mitchell played football, says Brian Mitchell.

 

If Brian Mitchell was ever made a head coach, his first practice would never actually end. He would start it on the first day of training camp and miss the first game of the season because the team was still mastering warming up perfectly, which is the way Brian Mitchell always warmed up.

 

Seriously, Brian Mitchell sucks as an analysis.

 

Why did the Skins lose? Didn't play hard.

How can the Skins win next week? Play harder.

How do you play harder? Practice harder.

How do you practice harder? Practice the way I, Brian Mitchell, practiced.

You played on a lot of ****ty teams, didn't you? They couldn't handle my leadership.

Which was? Playing hard.

[Burgold]

I think, in this case, he's right. The Redskins under Jay were a really soft team with practices so easy I could do three-a-days and still go out and do a half marathon afterwards.

[Thinking Skins]

1 hour ago, Burgold said:

Part of that is certainly winning, but part of it has to be getting rid of the poison and the nonstop negative narratives and burning of bridges. Take the firing of Jay Gruden. I didn't hide the fact that I thought he needed to go, but Jay did nothing to deserve any bad mouthing or the video besmirching. He just failed. He elevated this team from rotten to below average before imploding this year. Instead, there seemed to be an effort to dirty his name to justify his firing. All that does is alienate people from the team. All you had to do was point at his record, sigh, and shake his hand.

 

 

Yeah, that's part of Bruce's MO, but its also part of the deep dive into what went wrong. Sheehan & Galdi like to point out that every Callahan press conference looks like he's taking shots at Jay, which would be a Bruce like thing. But on the other end, we've had guys like Jon Allen compare the practices to Alabama and say that Alabama was definitely harder. We've heard that the only unit that really had hard practices were the OL unit. And one thing we've (the fans) have said is that Jay seemed checked out this season with his attitude and some of his decisions (benching AP, playing Quinn, playing Colt). Maybe Cal saw this a while ago and that was behind some of the rumors of him wanting to leave. 

 

But in terms of bringing the fans back I think its more about building a winning culture. That doesn't happen overnight. But if we hire the coach and we are able to begin winning games and do so consistently, we can do what the Saints did with Sean Payton and go from fans wearing bags on their heads back to sellouts and being a formiddable home team. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Sums it up well for me

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/the-redskins-are-finally-showing-signs-of-promise-thats-even-more-reason-to-let-bruce-allen-go/2019/12/01/b61aac30-146b-11ea-9110-3b34ce1d92b1_story.html

 

...Over the past two decades, the franchise has often tilted on the emotions of Snyder. If he’s upset, he destroys. But if he’s excited or hopeful, he has shown in recent years that he can overreact in the opposite manner and turn complacent when the situation calls for greater change. The owner is in evaluation mode, and the erosion of the fan base screams for him to do something dramatic. That’s why many are whispering about change. Let’s hope that Allen, who has mastered office politics (at least in this organization), cannot convince Snyder otherwise.

 

To hire the best coach, Washington needs a clean slate. No desirable candidate with options is going to take this job with Allen, even if he survives, having a questionable long-term future. It’s far more logical to rebuild the front office and bring in a reliable, ace talent evaluator and leader to implement a fresh plan.

 

...Under Allen, the Redskins have been faking it, quite honestly. They do just enough to be interesting, to provide small windows of hope, and when their flimsy plan fails, they drift between awful and mediocre and start blaming each other in a warped attempt at justification.

 

It has to stop. In a season this bad, there is every reason for it to finally stop. But until Snyder makes the move by firing Allen or gently nudging him into retirement, no one will believe the owner has the desire or the proper insight into his own franchise to try to give the fans something better.

 

Once again, it seems Snyder is close to returning to reality. But we’ve thought that at least three times in the past decade. Snyder can’t let this late-season illusion of progress fool him. The Redskins are getting better and have some young pieces to feel good about, but there’s no reason for excitement. These wins aren’t worth it if they save Allen from dismissal.

 

 

[JSSkinz]

As long as we are losing and Dan is the owner the team will have a hard time getting its fans back regardless of them firing Bruce, IMO.

 

I think the Skins junkies like us will be excited to have a real FO structure in place but I still won't go to games until I see a better product on the field.

 

I'm not bending the knee just because they fire Bruce, I need more than that.

[Skinsinparadise]

3 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

As long as we are losing and Dan is the owner the team will have a hard time getting its fans back regardless of them firing Bruce, IMO.

 

I think the Skins junkies like us will be excited to have a real FO structure in place but I still won't go to games until I see a better product on the field.

 

I'm not bending the knee just because they fire Bruce, I need more than that.

 

I need more as well.  But to say Dan has stubbornly clung onto Bruce would be an understatement.  It's not like it's here we go again and Dan gets rid of his best buddy henchman like he does every year.  He clung onto Vinny and now in a bigger way to Bruce like a teething newborn clings to a pacifier.  Not saying you are suggesting otherwise but just explaining my thought. 

 

So to me dumping Bruce is a nice start.  

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

 

So, Brian Mitchell's belief is that the team needs to work harder.

 

That's fascinating because the only argument that Brian Mitchell ever makes is that the losing team didn't try hard enough.

 

in order to succeed at football, you need to play football as hard as Brian Mitchell played football, says Brian Mitchell.

 

If Brian Mitchell was ever made a head coach, his first practice would never actually end. He would start it on the first day of training camp and miss the first game of the season because the team was still mastering warming up perfectly, which is the way Brian Mitchell always warmed up.

 

Seriously, Brian Mitchell sucks as an analysis.

 

Why did the Skins lose? Didn't play hard.

How can the Skins win next week? Play harder.

How do you play harder? Practice harder.

How do you practice harder? Practice the way I, Brian Mitchell, practiced.

You played on a lot of ****ty teams, didn't you? They couldn't handle my leadership.

Which was? Playing hard.

When he and Doc had a radio show together, in the 3-4 times I listened (by accident) it was so ridiculous.  Between Doc's "manhood issue" and stupid nicknames which he expects everybody to know, and BMitch's trying to out-tough guy Doc, it was comedy.

 

The only thing I agree with Doc on is if you are trying something and it doesn't work, try something else because why not, what you're doing isn't working anyway.

 

The only thing I agree with BMitch on is (I'm paraphrasing) preparation is motivation.  If you're prepared and know what you're doing, you're going to do it better and appear motivated.  

 

That's the list.  Both of them can get off of the radio now. I just summarized the last 20 years and next 10 years of blather.  

[Voice_of_Reason]

 

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I am not saying they should factor that but my point is they likely will factor it

I think it would be foolish not to at least factor in the feelings of your paying customers into decisions an organization makes.  Not that you have to take a poll and act on it, but if you disregard your customers feelings, as the Redskins have shown, you lose all your customers.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

4 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

I think it would be foolish not to at least factor in the feelings of your paying customers into decisions an organization makes.  Not that you have to take a poll and act on it, but if you disregard your customers feelings, as the Redskins have shown, you lose all your customers.

 

Classing 'fans' as 'customers' is a major way any team has a disconnect to begin with. 

 

Hail. 

 

 

 

1

1 hour ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

..... Sheehan & Galdi like to point out that every Callahan press conference looks like he's taking shots at Jay, which would be a Bruce like thing. .....

 

Is there anything those two DON'T like to nark about? 

 

They'd have a point if he was going out of his way to bring up the previous regime. But he hasn't. And doesn't. Forgive the current incumbent for answering questions on the changes he's made, and the effects therein, when asked. 

 

Ridiculously petty take if that's what Sheehan and Galdi are pushing. 

 

Hail.