FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[KDawg]

Still disagree. At snap his head looks down the middle of the field... then he turns his head and looks right at Inman. 
 

Neither of us know, though. So, I’ll default to Dwayne who says he didn’t stare down a single receiver on those picks. 

[Skinsinparadise]

7 hours ago, Tedskins 21 said:

The Dwayne pick will look brilliant after it lands us two franchise changing players in Chase Young and our next QB.  Got to love him for that.

 

I know that post is sarcasm.  But for me its why I am so chilled about this season. If the dude is as good as some here project, we will ultimately at least see enough flashes of it by the end of the season to see we got a franchise QB.  IMO we haven't see enough of that yet.  So I am not sold.  But I would be if I saw it.   And its possible.

 

On the other hand if the dude isn't the answer and he struggles then we land a top pick.

 

The defense looks good.  It doesn't need that many pieces. We need help on the O line badly.  A TE badly.  Maybe a Z receiver and maybe a QB.  But overall I like where this team is trending.  If we get a Chase Young type on offense -- that could be exactly what the doctor ordered.  

[Darrell Green Fan]

People continue to go to great lengths to justify terrible play from the quarterback.  

[Going Commando]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Still disagree. At snap his head looks down the middle of the field... then he turns his head and looks right at Inman. 
 

Neither of us know, though. So, I’ll default to Dwayne who says he didn’t stare down a single receiver on those picks. 

 

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.  Slow it down and watch the second step of the drop.  That's where the head turns to the flat.

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.  Slow it down and watch the second step of the drop.  That's where the head turns to the flat.

 His head looks like it turns to Inman after he looked down centerfield to me.

[Thinking Skins]

8 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

People continue to go to great lengths to justify terrible play from the quarterback.  

I just said that Haskins is not Cousins but I remember in 2014 there was all kinds of get rid of Cousins talk (there was the pro-RG3 crowd and the crowd who thought Cousins was nothing special) and this just heightened when he went 0-3 in 2013 and then threw 4 ints in 2014 against the Giants. But he did develop into a QB that was once the highest paid at the position. Not saying he's a HOF qb but he did turn his career around from that start. I distinctly remember Danny (don't know his last name) on 106.7 saying Kirk is just a guy and will never be anything special. Grant argued this. That is an important reference because these two wound up becoming the number 1 fanboys for Kirk Cousins and thinking he was the greatest thing ever created. 

 

People will justify bad play because the game is not based on 1 play (or 3 bad plays or 5 bad plays or 6 bad plays) but over 60 minutes, and a season ia a sequence of those 60 minute games, and a career is a sequence of those sequences of 60 minute games and its wise not to overraact to one blip in the sequence. 

[Warhead36]

14 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

People continue to go to great lengths to justify terrible play from the quarterback.  

I don't think anyone is justifying his play. We can all agree he's pretty bad right now.

 

But there is no real solution. There is no point in benching him. He's young and we as a team are in rebuilding mode. Kyle Allen is absolutely not the answer and playing Alex Smith gains us nothing long term.

 

Let him play and hope he gets better as the season goes on. If not, we get Lawrence or Fields next spring.

[Darrell Green Fan]

9 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

I just said that Haskins is not Cousins but I remember in 2014 there was all kinds of get rid of Cousins talk (there was the pro-RG3 crowd and the crowd who thought Cousins was nothing special) and this just heightened when he went 0-3 in 2013 and then threw 4 ints in 2014 against the Giants. But he did develop into a QB that was once the highest paid at the position. Not saying he's a HOF qb but he did turn his career around from that start. I distinctly remember Danny (don't know his last name) on 106.7 saying Kirk is just a guy and will never be anything special. Grant argued this. That is an important reference because these two wound up becoming the number 1 fanboys for Kirk Cousins and thinking he was the greatest thing ever created. 

 

People will justify bad play because the game is not based on 1 play (or 3 bad plays or 5 bad plays or 6 bad plays) but over 60 minutes, and a season ia a sequence of those 60 minute games, and a career is a sequence of those sequences of 60 minute games and its wise not to overraact to one blip in the sequence. 

 

Nobody is basing their Haskins assessment on a few bad plays.  We are basing it on his overall body of work and more so the continuing pattern of flat missing way too many throws. I can't think of one QB who had this accuracy issue, as well as many more issues Dwayne is demonstrating, in his second season as a professional who ever became a good QB.  

[Going Commando]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

 His head looks like it turns to Inman after he looked down centerfield to me.

 

Fair enough.  For me I see it as his head is centered at the snap, it turns to that hook on the first step of the drop, then turns further to the flat on the second, and then stays there until he's almost throwing it.

 

I think he was throwing blind and that's why he didn't see Sims's defender in the hook zone.  I think it was a bad decision that was a result of him not being patient and trying to force a dodgy throw to get the first down.

[Warhead36]

2 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

Nobody is basing their Haskins assessment on a few bad plays.  We are basing it on his overall body of work and more so the continuing pattern of flat missing way too many throws. I can't think of one QB who had this accuracy issue, as well as many more issues Dwayne is demonstrating, in his second season as a professional who ever became a good QB.  

Yep that's my issue as well. I don't honestly mind interceptions if you're just trying to be aggressive and fit tight throws. Heck I can even excuse not seeing open receivers because you're slow going through reads. But if you throw to an open guy and straight up miss him or don't throw a clean easy catchable ball, THAT is a problem that just doesn't get solved very often.

 

With all that said, the arm talent is there and he's got redeemable qualities like a quick release and appears to have some of the intangibles required(like his Week 1 speech at halftime).

 

Also remember that he is EXTREMELY inexperienced by any standard. He really only had one year of college football and last year was just an abomination for the most part until Callahan committed to him.

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Fair enough.  For me I see it as his head is centered at the snap, it turns to that hook on the first step of the drop, then turns further to the flat on the second, and then stays there until he's almost throwing it.

 

I think he was throwing blind and that's why he didn't see Sims's defender in the hook zone.  I think it was a bad decision that was a result of him not being patient and trying to force a dodgy throw to get the first down.

 

I don't fully disagree with your assessment for the record. I think he was baiting the defender to the flat by staring at Inman. It seems counterintuitive... But because he is quick with that kind of thing, he didn't wait to see if the defender went and he just let it rip. 

 

But in all honesty, whether you saw it correctly, I did, or neither of us did... the last sentence is accurate. He was too impatient. 

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

There exists a scenario where every NFC East team has a different starting QB in 2021, and that's wild.

 

As disappointing as Haskins has been, he is somehow, by ANY/A, the 2nd best QB in the division.  Somehow Jones and especially Wentz have been worse.

[Panninho]

6 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

Nobody is basing their Haskins assessment on a few bad plays.  We are basing it on his overall body of work and more so the continuing pattern of flat missing way too many throws. I can't think of one QB who had this accuracy issue, as well as many more issues Dwayne is demonstrating, in his second season as a professional who ever became a good QB.  

Have you seen Josh Allen's first season? Have you seen him this year? Dude was also in a way better situation.

 

 

I am not claiming that Haskins will develop similarly, just that 12 games is not enough to determine a young QB - especially with all the circumstances this year. It's also what Ron Rivera thinks apparently. Maybe Haskins goes down as a big bust and you are right. But if that's the case it still makes more sense to ride out the season with Haskins.

If we had drafted Josh Allen, God bless his soul. He would probably flip burgers somewhere right now.

[WilberMarshall]

Ron has his idea about how he wants to build this team.

 

I am in the minority, but I think his errors are correctable. 

 

I love what I am seeing from Scott Turner. 

We still need a reliable TE to be Dwayne's comfort blanket.

I, like many fans would love to see Dwayne make the turn... 

Yesterday, it was opposite of previous games. He started off well and petered out. 

I hope he learns from it.

 

 

[Thinking Skins]

6 minutes ago, WilberMarshall said:

I love what I am seeing from Scott Turner. 

 

I love what I saw from Turner last week. I haven't seen much from Turner otherwise. I have been asking how much Norv is talkig to Scott because this offense has not looked good the first 2 weeks. 

[Going Commando]

5 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

I don't fully disagree with your assessment for the record. I think he was baiting the defender to the flat by staring at Inman. It seems counterintuitive... But because he is quick with that kind of thing, he didn't wait to see if the defender went and he just let it rip. 

 

But in all honesty, whether you saw it correctly, I did, or neither of us did... the last sentence is accurate. He was too impatient. 

 

Pressing is a natural part of the growth process.  Young QB wants to win and hasn't learned all of the bitter iterations of the lesson of you're better off taking what the defense gives you and just give your skill guys a chance to make something happen.

 

There is a really tough balance to find between aggressive playmaking and efficient decision making.  most of the quarterbacks who become masters take years of learning through situational football to get to that point.  This will be a process that takes quite a bit of time for Dwayne.  The fans who want a fully formed Dwayne, in this situation, want to skip the process of development in a way that is utterly unrealistic.  And aside from that, a lot if the criticism of Dwayne I've read in here is coming from a weirdly personal dislike for the guy.  Not from you, but from the most loudmouthed negative ones.

[KDawg]

4 minutes ago, Panninho said:

Have you seen Josh Allen's first season? Have you seen him this year? Dude was also in a way better situation.

 

 

I am not claiming that Haskins will develop similarly, just that 12 games is not enough to determine a young QB - especially with all the circumstances this year. It's also what Ron Rivera thinks apparently. Maybe Haskins goes down as a big bust and you are right. But if that's the case it still makes more sense to ride out the season with Haskins.

If we had drafted Josh Allen, God bless his soul. He would probably flip burgers somewhere right now.

 

Living in the Buffalo market, I actually disagree with your Allen assessment. He was off as a passer, that much I agree with. And in that vein he and Haskins were similar. But the differences were stark.

 

Allen is very well liked. By the community, the fans, the team, the front office. He says and does all the right things. He has the likability of Mahomes. Or Jackson. He isn't them, but he has that kind of aura about him. The team wants to succeed with him because of his personality.

 

He also has some pretty good legs.

 

Fans were not happy with him after that playoff effort last season. But they attributed it to learning and moved on.

 

If Haskins was developing this way, but had that kind of personality, poise and maturity... I would bet he'd still have nay sayers, but the number would be far lower.

 

He is making strides in the maturity department, absolutely. But Allen entered Buffalo day one and captivated the entire area.

 

There is a lot of factors that go into developing a QB.

 

Organizational Structure is one, and this org. failed Haskins.

 

Individual maturity and character is another, and Haskins has failed a lot of sniff tests, but he's beginning to understand that a bit more now. I really think he could use a PR guy in his ear. Saying things like "The people complaining is just noise" is absolutely, 100% correct on his part. But instead he could say something like, "People are right to be frustrated. I am, too. I need to be better. We need to be better. And we're going to work on that. I just need to focus on what's going on in the building and get better every day." That comes across much better, in my opinion. 

 

Here's a quote from Allen RE: The Texans playoff loss:

 

https://clutchpoints.com/bills-news-josh-allen-reveals-what-he-learned-from-buffalos-playoff-loss-to-texans/

Quote

“I think I learned a couple lessons that game,” he said of the Bills’ loss. “One, not to press, being up like we were, 16-0, letting that kind of slip through our fingers there. There’s no doubt in my mind that I should have played better. There are certain things I could’ve done to help this team win that football game, and that’s going to drive me to this day.

“I think number two was the importance of a home playoff game and allowing ourselves to — well, it might be a little different this year — but having a home playoff game where you do have that energy, that excitement on your side and you can feel the momentum swing. It was very apparent during the game you felt the momentum kind of change and it sucked to be on the other side of that, for once. I learned a lot from that game. Still, every time I see highlights or whatever from it, it just kind of makes me cringe because I know we should have been put in a better position and I know I had a huge part in that. I take it very hard on myself, and I’m using that to motivate me.”

 

Don't get me wrong... He has his share of critics here, too. But very few QBs are universally loved. Rodgers somehow still has critics. But the vast majority appreciate Allen.

 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

15 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Yep that's my issue as well. I don't honestly mind interceptions if you're just trying to be aggressive and fit tight throws. Heck I can even excuse not seeing open receivers because you're slow going through reads. But if you throw to an open guy and straight up miss him or don't throw a clean easy catchable ball, THAT is a problem that just doesn't get solved very often.

 

With all that said, the arm talent is there and he's got redeemable qualities like a quick release and appears to have some of the intangibles required(like his Week 1 speech at halftime).

I think the bolded contradicts what you said above (which I agree with, btw).  Arm talent is a wide net.  Does he have a cannon? Absolutely.  But it doesn't appear he has much diversity in what he can throw and that's what is both frustrating and not something I see developing, particularly when the guy is already shaky and a bit skittish due to a porous O-line to begin with.

[Thinking Skins]

20 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

Nobody is basing their Haskins assessment on a few bad plays.  We are basing it on his overall body of work and more so the continuing pattern of flat missing way too many throws. I can't think of one QB who had this accuracy issue, as well as many more issues Dwayne is demonstrating, in his second season as a professional who ever became a good QB.  

I disagree. We are a quick reaction fanbase. I haven't gone through the game thread but I wonder how many were singing his praises after that first quarter drive when we took the 7-0 lead or after that pretty TD to Inman. Its not like he has put up 10 games - 40 quarters and about 600 or so plays of bad QB. Its a few plays here and there, an int, a missed read, an overthrow or a throw lacking touch, etc. Even this season people are complaining that he's not throwing it deep enough. That's a valid criticism but its not something that I'd rank in the top 10 list of things I require of a QB. He can do things, but I am much more concerned about him growing as a QB and with Turner than anything else and I saw him grow last week in this offense as we saw him getting guys involved, move the team down the field and score three times (and looked good on all three drives). He has a lot of work to do, namely the mistakes made on the non-scoring drives. But this team is a growing team and hopefully they put it all together in time for us to make some noise. 

[Probos]

2 hours ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

My fear is that this season isn't going to be the final verdict because of who owns the team.

 

Well, if this is the case then all of the "oh, because they hired Rivera things are different" (which I thought was BS to begin with) is out the window.  If Dan is dictating to this coaching staff who plays and who doesn't in any capacity then things are already broken, and just like all the others before him, the RR era will end in failure.  So,....let's hope this is not the case.

 

Outside of some quick flashes here and there Dwayne looks bad.  That said I believe he needs to continue to start until at least the bye week.  If it gets to the point that Allen is starting because Dwayne continues to look awful,...well, obviously that's a bad place to be.

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Pressing is a natural part of the growth process.  Young QB wants to win and hasn't learned all of the bitter iterations of the lesson of you're better off taking what the defense gives you and just give your skill guys a chance to make something happen.

 

There is a really tough balance to find between aggressive playmaking and efficient decision making.  most of the quarterbacks who become masters take years of learning through situational football to get to that point.  This will be a process that takes quite a bit of time for Dwayne.  The fans who want a fully formed Dwayne, in this situation, want to skip the process of development in a way that is utterly unrealistic.  And aside from that, a lot if the criticism of Dwayne I've read in here is coming from a weirdly personal dislike for the guy.  Not from you, but from the most loudmouthed negative ones.

 

Absolutely it is.

 

My concern is that he never really seems to hold himself accountable. It's always someone else... He has to block out the noise, etc...

 

He needs to own it. He needs to say "I was NOT good." 

 

That is a part of development as well, in my opinion. And a very big part of it.

 

I'm not as concerned with his on-field mistakes as I am with his attitude. Top quarterbacks don't carry themselves the way he has on a day to day basis. Do they say and do goofy things? Sure. But he is focused on the wrong things to be successful. The team needs to coach him on that stuff. Or hire someone to do it. 

 

I am not thrilled with his on-field development, but I do see the value in an absolute clunker like yesterday. It can really do a lot to teach him. But I'd like to see him be more accountable. And maybe he is behind closed doors. But what he says to the media and such makes it seem like he's terrified to admit his faults.

 

And, let's say he didn't stare Inman down on the pick we discussed... He stared down the other two. And post game he said he didn't stare any receivers down. Again... this is concerning for me. 

[Thinking Skins]

4 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I think the bolded contradicts what you said above (which I agree with, btw).  Arm talent is a wide net.  Does he have a cannon? Absolutely.  But it doesn't appear he has much diversity in what he can throw and that's what is both frustrating and not something I see developing, particularly when the guy is already shaky and a bit skittish due to a porous O-line to begin with.

How many times has he been called a pitcher who relies too much on his fastball? So there's two options - either the WRs get used to catching that fastball or he add to his aresenal. We saw Staus add to his arsenal when he had a lethal fastball, but we've also seen QBs who didn't have touch drop dimes because they had WRs who had hands. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

4 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

How many times has he been called a pitcher who relies too much on his fastball? So there's two options - either the WRs get used to catching that fastball or he add to his aresenal. We saw Staus add to his arsenal when he had a lethal fastball, but we've also seen QBs who didn't have touch drop dimes because they had WRs who had hands. 

The fastball analogy is fitting, but every throw cannot be a fastball.  I don't think there is any option other than he must add to his arsenal.  I just don't see that being very realistic at this stage for a variety of reasons.  One would think it should be natural to have more than a fastball by the time a QB hits the pros.  To think he's just all the sudden going to develop touch at this point seems lofty, as he has to work on all the other things young QB's have to develop to start in the NFL as well.

[method man]

We also need to acknowledge that while it is true Dwayne doesn’t have the best weapons or OLine, they have given him one of the best QB coaches in the league in Zampese and have sacrificed a roster slot to give him another defacto QB coach in Alex Smith. I wonder how much Dwayne is baking Ken’s teachings into his play

[Thinking Skins]

4 minutes ago, method man said:

We also need to acknowledge that while it is true Dwayne doesn’t have the best weapons or OLine, they have given him one of the best QB coaches in the league in Zampese and have sacrificed a roster slot to give him another defacto QB coach in Alex Smith. I wonder how much Dwayne is baking Ken’s teachings into his play

I wonder how much the shortened offseason is impacting Zampeze and Haskins relationship. The things like mechanics and feet/eyes are things I think would be drilled on in the months of May and June but we didn't have those months of football this year. Hopefully they are working on them now though. And i wonder how different Zampese is from Smith in terms of philosophy. One is a QB developer and the other is a consummate pro and how to live through the stresses in this league.