FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[Skinsinparadise]

18 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Or what Arizona did with Murray.

 

Definitely don't have the star power that Denver added, but I'm hopeful that our lower-key additions are gems like McLauren was.  There is something about Gandy-Golden that makes him seem like he's just going to work out, and Gibson has pretty obvious and spectacular upside.  And I still believe in Guice too.  A healthy season from him would be like adding Melvin Gordon.

 

 

Yeah Arizona is another great example.  I was a big Gibson guy on the draft thread, Gandy-Golden i liked but not loved but the more I dive in on him the more I like him.  I was probably Guice's biggest cheerleader before that draft, and one of the bigger McLaurin guys, too.  So I like a lot of our pieces.  But the left side of the line is such a wildcard and ditto TE that it's hard for to buy in fully.  They need to catch some breaks -- Charles develops fast and stays out of trouble, Guice stays healthy, one of the TE's emerge, etc.

 

18 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

But you're right to expect it to be a weird and disruptive offseason, especially for our offensive players.  I'm hoping for the best but not really expecting it.

 

 

Me, too.  It wouldn't be a good start for the culture.  But imagine emerging from this draft with someone like Sewell or Chase.  Another step back might be losing a battle to help win the war.  I am obviously going to root for wins but it also seems almost like a no lose season because I see this as a bridge year to 2021 anyway.

 

18 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I'm skeptical that we'll see a SF-like turnaround on defense because I don't think we have the secondary talent in-house that they did.  But I think our defensive front is even more loaded than theirs was.

 

Their secondary if I recall was the 2nd worst in the NFL the season before.   But as for talent, yeah I don't think we have a corner on par with Sherman or a FS on par with Ward. 

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I wish we did for Haskins what Denver did for Lock this year.  Talk about upgrading weapons.  As for here, I like Gibson a lot and Gandy-Golden.  So our weapons potentially could be good.  But we got at least in theory no legitimate TE.  LG is up in the air.  I like Charles at LT but he's a rookie and we aren't sure yet with his past problems that he's the answer.  You converge all of that with a weird off season where you can't practice a new system with young players.  It might be a challenge. 

 

I think the defense will be significantly better with the obvious concern about the secondary.  Hopefully the pass rush like it did for SF improves the back end. 

 

I disagree somewhat.  Our weapons are going to be better than advertised...except the TE group.  That unit is lackluster.

 

I know Steven Sims gets no national credit, but he really developed to end the season.  Take this play where he laid out and almost had the catch.  Better throw by Keenum and that's a touchdown.  FYI, he's going against another rookie, who the Giants drafted in the 6th round.

 

Go to the 6 minute and 37 second mark.

 

 

Weapons for Haskins:

- Two WR weapons in McLaurin & Sims, stacked RB group, decent OL, 1 chess piece weapon in Gibson.

- Unknowns would be TE group, and whoever wins between Harmon/Gandy-Golden as the 3rd WR

 

Weapons for Lock:

- Two WR weapons in Sutton and Jeudy, a hyper athletic TE in Fant that needs to put it together, and I think a decent OL

-Unknowns, the 3rd WR (Sir Drops-A-Lot in college?) and the RB group who averaged what...3.9 ypc?

 

Does Lock have better or more weapons than we do?  I'd say, at best, these weapons come out to league average for both teams.  A lot of this will depend on how their TE group is used, and how we use Gibson and our RB group.  We simply won't know until the season starts for that.

[HTTRDynasty]

41 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Me, too.  It wouldn't be a good start for the culture.  But imagine emerging from this draft with someone like Sewell or Chase.  Another step back might be losing a battle to help win the war.  I am obviously going to root for wins but it also seems almost like a no lose season because I see this as a bridge year to 2021 anyway.

 

That is my mindset this season as well.  Win-win situation.

 

The only way it can really backfire is if we finish in the back half of the top 10 and they do something stupid like another RG3-type trade to move up to draft Fields.  I would probably give up as a fan if that happens.

[Burgold]

46 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Their secondary if I recall was the 2nd worst in the NFL the season before.   But as for talent, yeah I don't think we have a corner on par with Sherman or a FS on par with Ward. 

The odd thing about our secondary is that if we go back four years, this is the secondary the team was hoping for. They were hoping Moreau would develop to replace Breeland or Norman while Fuller continued his climb to be the other starter. The only one missing is Dunbar. I did like what I saw in Mooreland. So, if Moreau and Fuller can man the outside and Mooreland can take the nickle we might be okay (assuming a deadly pass rush.)

 

I still think this is a big weakness as neither Collins nor Davis are known for their coverage abilities and our linebacking crew is weak there, too, but with a little bit (okay, a lot) of luck the starting three corners might be okay.

[mistertim]

I think one of the biggest things that should be better about our defense this year, regardless of talent level or upgrades, is having everyone on the same page. I remember reading last season about how the DL would have one game plan, the LBs would have another, and the secondary would have its own and none of the coaches could ever seem to completely be on the same page. No wonder we were so horrid on 3rd downs. 

 

I am somewhat worried about the offense. Not just about whether it will be effective, but whether a guy like Haskins will get some leeway given that he's coming into a new system in his second year in the league without taking the OTA and minicamp snaps due to the pandemic. It probably won't take much for some of the fan base to turn on him if things go poorly to start off. 

[cakmoney61]

9 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Yeah agree.  It feels like everything is setting up not for 2020 but for 2021.  Cap room.  More time to build the culture.  Round out the roster.  Young guys gain experience with the system.  And possibly one more high draft pick. 

 

This is where I am, too.  I get the feeling (and I've felt like this since free agency) that Rivera wouldn't be too upset if the Redskins ended up picking in the top 5 of the 2021 draft.  The immense talent in the top 5 combined with the Redskins' positions of need will be plentiful.  How Haskins and the defense plays will probably determine where the Redskins pick.  I so want him to end up looking like a franchise QB, so the team can put the QB position behind it.

 

I also enjoyed Haskins' letter to the fans.  What I liked the most was what he didn't say.  He didn't blame Gruden, management, nor the lack of talent around him for his poor performances.  He took full responsibility for how he played.  What more could a fan want from his or her very young QB who was, in fact, neglected by his head coach and was not supported with talent on the offensive nor the defensive side of the ball?

 

2020, if played, will probably determine if Haskins has a future as the Redskins starting QB because his growth and development will be the focus unlike last year.  I suspect he will be given every opportunity to succeed.  

[OVCChairman]

17 minutes ago, Burgold said:

The odd thing about our secondary is that if we go back four years, this is the secondary the team was hoping for. They were hoping Moreau would develop to replace Breeland or Norman while Fuller continued his climb to be the other starter. The only one missing is Dunbar. I did like what I saw in Mooreland. So, if Moreau and Fuller can man the outside and Mooreland can take the nickle we might be okay (assuming a deadly pass rush.)

 

I still think this is a big weakness as neither Collins nor Davis are known for their coverage abilities and our linebacking crew is weak there, too, but with a little bit (okay, a lot) of luck the starting three corners might be okay.

 

 

I would not forget Darby.  

I do not like Moreau in the slot personally, he's much better outside.  Darby is on a prove it deal, and has quite a bit of experience in the league, starting 56 games in 5 seasons.  I believe he has missed quite a bit of time over the last 3 years due to injury, so don't be shocked if he shows out in camp.   I could see a situation where Fuller is playing a FS / Slot CB hybrid where Moreau and Darby are on the outside... depending on offensive alignment.  

[Skinsinparadise]

43 minutes ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

I disagree somewhat.  Our weapons are going to be better than advertised...except the TE group.  That unit is lackluster.

 

I know Steven Sims gets no national credit, but he really developed to end the season.  Take this play where he laid out and almost had the catch.  Better throw by Keenum and that's a touchdown.  FYI, he's going against another rookie, who the Giants drafted in the 6th round.

 

 

I like Sims and it was part of the reason why in the draft thread I shot down the idea of drafting dudes like KJ Hill who looked to me to be pure slot WRs.  I highlighted TE and the left side of the O line as my concerns not WR.  

 

43 minutes ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

decent OL, 

- Unknowns would be TE group, and whoever wins between Harmon/Gandy-Golden as the 3rd WR

 

 

I've played up some of the same players you have including today on this same thread.  Guice, McLaurin, Gibson were among my guys before we even drafted them.  So if you think we are disagreeing, I'd forget the WRs and RBs because its not on point as for any disagreement. I like the same guys on that front.   Looks like our disagreement is the O line, you say its decent, I saw its a wildcard.  The LT isn't just any position on the O line, it's the key one.  LG is a wildcard, too IMO.

 

 

43 minutes ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

Weapons for Lock:

- Two WR weapons in Sutton and Jeudy, a hyper athletic TE in Fant that needs to put it together, and I think a decent OL

-Unknowns, the 3rd WR (Sir Drops-A-Lot in college?) and the RB group who averaged what...3.9 ypc?

 

Does Lock have better or more weapons than we do?  I'd say, at best, these weapons come out to league average for both teams.  A lot of this will depend on how their TE group is used, and how we use Gibson and our RB group.  We simply won't know until the season starts for that.

 

 

Fant looked good his first season.  then they add Lock's old TE in Albert O on top of that?  I wasn't as high on Albert O as some but the dude is really fast for his size, as is Fant.  Then you add Jeudy and Hamler to Sutton who is a pro bowler.  And you add M. Gordon to an already pretty good RB group.  That's quite the juiced up unit. 

 

https://www.milehighreport.com/2020/4/26/21236607/denver-broncos-drew-lock-2020-nfl-draft-weapons

After this draft, Denver might out-speed even the Chiefs. The joke on ESPN was the Broncos are “building a track squad.” This offense should be fun to watch.

 

 

 

 

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

I think I'd take our RB group over theirs.

 

Royce Freeman has disappointed and looks like a JAG.  Lindsay was electric as a rookie but maybe that was a one hit wonder?  Or maybe their o-line is worse than I thought?  Cause Lindsay's ypc numbers pre-contact fell way off, he's not finding/creating those holes like he did as a rookie.

 

I've always thought Melvin Gordon is overhyped.  He had one year with ypc over 5, everyother year ypc was in the 3's.  I liked him a lot in college and as a prospect, but he didn't translate to the pros like I thought he would.

 

Broncos ( and Eagles) certainly have a crap ton more speed than before though.  That's two offenses that will be hard to predict for 2020.

[Skinsinparadise]

29 minutes ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

I think I'd take our RB group over theirs.

 

Royce Freeman has disappointed and looks like a JAG.  Lindsay was electric as a rookie but maybe that was a one hit wonder?  Or maybe their o-line is worse than I thought?  Cause Lindsay's ypc numbers pre-contact fell way off, he's not finding/creating those holes like he did as a rookie.

 

I've always thought Melvin Gordon is overhyped.  He had one year with ypc over 5, everyother year ypc was in the 3's.  I liked him a lot in college and as a prospect, but he didn't translate to the pros like I thought he would.

 

Broncos ( and Eagles) certainly have a crap ton more speed than before though.  That's two offenses that will be hard to predict for 2020.

 

I'd take our RBs over theirs too.  But I wouldn't take our WR crop or TE crop over theirs.  And my main point was they ramped up their offense more than we did this off season.  I am not going out on a limb on the point, the point is borderline cliche, I was listening to a PFF dude among others just gush and gush about what Denver did for Lock during the off season.

 

We did decent for Haskins on that front but nothing major IMO.  Receiver corp is better.  The O line is arguably weaker.  TE is IMO about a wash.  RB was already good, it still is.  I am fine with their off season so that's not a criticism of it -- just saying Denver amped it further.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

And my main point was they ramped up their offense more than we did this off season.

 

In terms of outside help?  Definitely.  Sutton was one outside WR, but their cupboard was barren for developmental wide receivers.  They traded away Emmanuel Sanders and had nobody else who could fill that void.  The only way they could improve Lock's situation, is through FA or the Draft.  They signed 0 WR's in free agency, so they had to address it in the draft. 

 

Drew Lock started the last 5 games of the Broncos season.  In those games, here are his leading wide receivers:

- Courtland Sutton, 22 catches, 280 yards, 2 TD's, and 55% catch rate

- Daesean Hamilton, 17 catches, 191 yards, 1 TD, 60% catch rate

- Tim Patrick, 11 catches, 138 yards, 0 TD's, 55% catch rate

 

Going into 2020 with just that at WR for Lock would have been criminal.  I do really like what they did with the o-line though, I think they got pretty lucky and they jumped on it.  They let their decent C and good RG walk in FA.  But signed a younger and also good RG in FA, then they somehow landed a quality C prospect in the 3rd round.  One off-season and they (at least on paper) successfully retooled their o-line.  Risner, Cushenberry, and Glasgow is a pretty good IOL group for the next few years.

 

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

We did decent for Haskins on that front but nothing major IMO.  Receiver corp is better.  The O line is arguably weaker.  TE is IMO about a wash.  RB was already good, it still is.

 

I'd argue O-line at a minimum treads water with last season.  Probably a minor improvement.

 

LT - better

LG - worse

C - same

RG - same

RT - same

Depth and 6th OL - better

 

I think people overrate Penn while underrate Geron Christian.  While Geron had some poor plays, I'd argue that Penn's rate of poor plays was similar if not worse.  Geron's best plays were better than Penn's.  I'm not saying Geron was good, he was just 'OK'.  What I'm saying is that Penn was, all-in-all, 'below average'.  I don't even know if Geron starts, Saahdiq Charles might, but Penn was seriously struggling out there.

 

TE group is regrettably probably a wash.  I want to add in Gibson somewhere, but I feel like it's better to probably wait and see how we actually use him.  His skill/talent is hard to quantify in a group by group breakdown.

[Going Commando]

I'm as hopeful of the potential as our running backs as anyone, but we Redskins fans are the only ones who'd think our running backs group is as good as Denver's.  Lindsay and Gordon are pro-bowl backs in their prime.  AP is 35 years old and way past his prime and Guice and Love are pure potential who haven't really demonstrated anything yet.  RB is a huge advantage for Denver at this point.

[Skinsinparadise]

15 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

I'm as hopeful of the potential as our running backs as anyone, but we Redskins fans are the only ones who'd think our running backs group is as good as Denver's.  Lindsay and Gordon are pro-bowl backs in their prime.  AP is 35 years old and way past his prime and Guice and Love are pure potential who haven't really demonstrated anything yet.  RB is a huge advantage for Denver at this point.

 

It's a good point.  I've loved Guice for years so i am a bit clouded perhaps on him.  I loved Love too but not to the same extent.  So in my head I envision a dream scenario where they are both healthy but that at best is a wildcard.    From PFF standards via a small sample, Guice in theory would explode if he can stay healthy.  But it's certainly an if.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

20 hours ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

I'd argue O-line at a minimum treads water with last season.  Probably a minor improvement.

 

LT - better

LG - worse

C - same

RG - same

RT - same

Depth and 6th OL - better

 

I think people overrate Penn while underrate Geron Christian.  While Geron had some poor plays, I'd argue that Penn's rate of poor plays was similar if not worse.  Geron's best plays were better than Penn's.  I'm not saying Geron was good, he was just 'OK'.  What I'm saying is that Penn was, all-in-all, 'below average'.  I don't even know if Geron starts, Saahdiq Charles might, but Penn was seriously struggling out there.

 

TE group is regrettably probably a wash.  I want to add in Gibson somewhere, but I feel like it's better to probably wait and see how we actually use him.  His skill/talent is hard to quantify in a group by group breakdown.

 

 I don't love what some of the beat guys have said they've heard about Geron Christian which apparently is that he doesn't play with an edge and some their have concerns about him having the right killer type mindset to play the position at a high level.  Christian isn't talked about often but once in a blue moon something like that pops up about him.    He's been at best inconsistent.   I am not sure I am counting on him to be OK.  But I don't know.  Will see.  That's why I put LT as a wildcard.  I have more faith in S. Charles if he can stay out of trouble.   So I don't know if I am counting on LT to be better.  It's possible though.

 

I like Scherff better than most people or so it seems when his name comes up on some threads.  He's no Q. Nelson but he's still IMO one of the better guards in the league.  I like our center.  Moses IMO is a warrior and a good guy but I think a bit overrated at RT.  He hasn't sniffed a pro bowl IMO for a reason.   He IMO is OK but nothing special. 

 

I'd rate the O line as OK but tough for me to label it above average.  It's possible if the wildcards turn out that it ends up better,

[JoggingGod]

Moses isn’t just overrated he’s legitimately not good. We should be open to Charles at LT and Lucas at RT.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Going Commando]

On 5/8/2020 at 9:03 AM, Skinsinparadise said:

I'd rate the O line as OK but tough for me to label it above average.  It's possible if the wildcards turn out that it ends up better,

 

Good breakdown and I have similar feelings about the players you discuss.  I really like Scherff's game because he's a road grading run blocker with a tremendous power/mobility combo.  He can stick the hardest run blocks we design and he can flatten the dude in the process.  Even if his pass pro isn't on the level of the very best guards in the game, his run blocking is IMO.  I feel like we need that presence in the run game.

 

I'm actually kind of high on Pierschbacher too.  I know most people aren't expecting anything from him due to drafting Ismael and having Roullier in house, but I think he's a decent player.  He's not gifted, but he's got good hands and a good motor.  Trusts his technique and he keeps his feet churning when through contact so so he anchors in pass pro and gets the crease open in the run game.  He's an effective positional blocker, and if Martin just bombs at LG, then Pierschbacher might be an option to start. 

 

I'm hopeful that the OL will benefit from the scheme change too.  I think we're going to simplify our blocks by switching to an outside zone heavy system and make things easier on our linemen.  Frankly, it lets you run an effective ground game with inferior physical talent on your line so long as you can get your blocks made on the edges and your running backs are smart.  We've got blue collar receivers and tight ends, they're going to put in the work in the run game.  And we've got high upside running backs with speed and in the case of AP, Guice, and Gibson speed + power.

 

And I think Dwayne can make things easier on the line too as he grows in comfort and experience.  I'm high on his "pocket general" qualities.  His instincts and recognition skills really shone as his biggest strength at Ohio State, and he has the point guard's mentality to utilize the full range of his personnel that is ideal.  And he's a big and strong body at the position and he's got sneaky good pocket movement skills.  Combine all of that with a ground game and lots of playaction and we can get the ball out faster and kind of mitigate the damage from our lack of talent for pass protection on the offensive line.

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

 

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

On 5/8/2020 at 9:03 AM, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 I don't love what some of the beat guys have said they've heard about Geron Christian which apparently is that he doesn't play with an edge and some their have concerns about him having the right killer type mindset to play the position at a high level.  Christian isn't talked about often but once in a blue moon something like that pops up about him.    He's been at best inconsistent.   I am not sure I am counting on him to be OK.  But I don't know.  Will see.  That's why I put LT as a wildcard.  I have more faith in S. Charles if he can stay out of trouble.   So I don't know if I am counting on LT to be better.  It's possible though.

Hmm, that's disappointing about Geron's mindset if true.

 

I do keep reading about Charles being more of a Tackle/Guard prospect than a true Tackle.  The Athletic had a recent article with anonymous scouts talking about our draft picks, and that seemed to be a recurring comment.

 

On 5/8/2020 at 9:03 AM, Skinsinparadise said:

I like Scherff better than most people or so it seems when his name comes up on some threads.  He's no Q. Nelson but he's still IMO one of the better guards in the league.  I like our center.  Moses IMO is a warrior and a good guy but I think a bit overrated at RT.  He hasn't sniffed a pro bowl IMO for a reason.   He IMO is OK but nothing special. 

 

I like Roullier too, but I also think he's walking in FA.  Which is fine.  Agreed on Moses.  I'd also say he's probably getting cut in 2021.  His cap hit is large for an 'OK' player, aaannndd the salary cap is likely falling.  If it doesn't fall, then some sort of weird cap borrowing against the future happens.  Regardless, with cap uncertainty, you get rid of the overpaid players.

 

On 5/8/2020 at 9:03 AM, Skinsinparadise said:

I'd rate the O line as OK but tough for me to label it above average.  It's possible if the wildcards turn out that it ends up better,

 

Ooo, that's a bit more optimistic than me.  I think we're going to be solidly average.  All-in-all 'OK'.  Depth should help prevent drop off as the season wears on them, but the biggest thing that could push it to Above Average would be a well-schemed offense.  I have doubts on that in 2020.  Coaches first time being hands on with the players, and the TE group is lacking.  There's bound to be some growing pains.

[Est.1974]

On 5/8/2020 at 3:16 PM, JoggingGod said:

Moses isn’t just overrated he’s legitimately not good. We should be open to Charles at LT and Lucas at RT.

I’ll be glad to see us move on from Moses, but I think we’ll have to take one more year of him before they cut his contract adrift next offseason.

 

I think we might see a Lucas at LT and Charles at LG combination though, unless we change tact and go after Peters at some stage.

[Riggo#44]

Well, JLC says Haskins has no shot...

 

[PartyPosse]

My respect for JLC has gone from 1.2% to .01%

 

Does he even know what he's talking about anymore or is he trying to be the next SaS?

[Riggo#44]

1 minute ago, PartyPosse said:

My respect for JLC has gone from 1.2% to .01%

 

Does he even know what he's talking about anymore or is he trying to be the next SaS?

 

He's long hated the Redskins. And I really hate the "biased" label, but he is. 

 

Actually, I just went and googled "Jason La Canfora is an idiot" and many fan bases think he's an idiot. So...

[Anselmheifer]

On 5/7/2020 at 5:53 PM, stevemcqueen1 said:

I'm as hopeful of the potential as our running backs as anyone, but we Redskins fans are the only ones who'd think our running backs group is as good as Denver's.  Lindsay and Gordon are pro-bowl backs in their prime.  AP is 35 years old and way past his prime and Guice and Love are pure potential who haven't really demonstrated anything yet.  RB is a huge advantage for Denver at this point.

This. And Denver’s WR’s aren’t in the same universe as ours. Courtland Sutton put up better numbers than McLaurin last year and they drafted Jeudy and Hamler. I think Jeudy is a HOF caliber talent. He would have been our best offensive player, maaaaybe behind McLaurin. Fant is better than any TE on our roster, by a mile. They just have much, much better offensive talent than we do, and to suggest otherwise is super homer-ish. 
 

Our DL is more talented than theirs. Maybe Haskins is better than Lock. The rest of the roster isn’t really comparable. 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

 

Ooo, that's a bit more optimistic than me.  I think we're going to be solidly average.  All-in-all 'OK'.  Depth should help prevent drop off as the season wears on them, but the biggest thing that could push it to Above Average would be a well-schemed offense.  I have doubts on that in 2020.  Coaches first time being hands on with the players, and the TE group is lacking.  There's bound to be some growing pains.

 

I guess then am confused about your position, I thought I quoted you where you said our O line is "decent".    My response more or less to that was its likely less than decent so if anything I'd think I am more pessimistic than you.

 

My take is I think Scherff is really good.  Case at center is decent.  Moses at RT is so so but props for durability.  LG is a wildcard and in theory at least it's not looking hot.  LT is a wildcard.

 

I bring up the Giants because they in basically three seasons in theory have built themselves a good O line.  Arguably every team in the division now has an above average O line except for us so IMO we got some work to do on this front. 

 

1 hour ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

Hmm, that's disappointing about Geron's mindset if true.

 

I do keep reading about Charles being more of a Tackle/Guard prospect than a true Tackle.  The Athletic had a recent article with anonymous scouts talking about our draft picks, and that seemed to be a recurring comment.

 

 

As for Charles, IMO he has the feet and athleticism to play LT.  The question is about his length, 33 inch arms from what I recall.  As for the LT-G conversation, looks like its mixed.