FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[JoggingGod]

2 hours ago, ggarriso said:

Is this even real life?  here are Minshews stats with a pretty pedestrian supporting cast

 

Record: 6-6 / TD: 21 / INT: 6 / Yards: 3271 / CP: 60.6

 

Here is "Simba"

 

Record: 2-5 / TD: 7 / INT: 7 / Yards 1365 / CP: 58.6

 

So in EVERY measurable category Minshew was better than "Simba" and by a wide margin overall, yet posters would rank Simba higher?  He was one of the worst QB's to take a snap in the NFL last year overall, and its not even really close, and he compounded it by embarrassing himself over and over again.. sheeeesh (lol)

 

 

 

The dude above did a film breakdown. That’s worth a lot more than just stats.

[KDawg]

Minshew played much better than Haskins last year. That doesn’t necessarily make him a better quarterback. Minshew’s talent threshold is lower than anyone on the list, so until he shows consistency there’s going to be some doubt. Haskins came in as one of the hot names based on potential, he gets the benefit of the doubt. If this season is similar to last season in results Minshew likely is the #2 from the class at that point. 

[volsmet]

On 5/2/2020 at 10:51 AM, HTTRDynasty said:

 

To what extent do you agree with the brief breakdowns below on last year's rookie QBs?  Interested to see your opinion.

 

 

Lock

Murray

Jones

DH

 

Minshew

 

On 5/3/2020 at 3:37 PM, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

Hadn’t seen K-Ci since the 90s. 

[wit33]

@volsmet
 

Were you a lock guy before he was drafted? Or his play last year lead you to this ranking? 

 

[volsmet]

5 hours ago, wit33 said:

@volsmet
 

Were you a lock guy before he was drafted? Or his play last year lead you to this ranking? 

 

I liked Lock heading into the draft. 

[Skinsinparadise]

8 hours ago, volsmet said:

Lock

Murray

Jones

DH

 

Minshew

 

Hadn’t seen K-Ci since the 90s. 

 

For me I am still right where I was before the draft:

Murray

Lock

DH 

Jones 

Minshew

 

My main difference from then, is that Jones is better than I thought he would be.  I am not as down on him as some are on this thread about him, and it feels funny for me to say that considering I was really tough on the dude.  I think Giant fans have enough material for the moment to make the case that Jones might be the better QB.  My gut is that Haskins though ends up better than Jones.  The story though still needs to play out.  Jones still has turnover issues that plagued him in college and ditto accuracy problems past the 10 yard line.  Those were some of my concerns about him before the draft. 

 

But he's a gritty player, he doesn't flinch much under pressure and his accuracy with the short game is insane.  I gather some think the short game is easy (I used to think the same) but watching training camp last year, I could see Keenum and Haskins struggle throwing the ball ahead of the receiver in the flat where they can catch it in stride to set up YAC.  Jones kills those type of throws.   I learned to appreciate that skill a bit more when I watched our own guys practice that in camp where they'd throw right at the receiver versus ahead of them or too often a little behind the receiver which made YAC difficult and made a 4 yard pass, just a 4 yard pass as opposed to a 10 yarder with YAC, etc.  

 

I was higher than most on the draft thread about Lock before that draft but not as high on him as you.  But in a short sample he flashed last year.  Rocket arm-decent mobility-moxie.  His mobility in particular is underrated.  And man does Denver now have weapons to help him.   As for Haskins, his mobility surprised me in a good way last season.  I noticed it back in camp.  And the fact that he looks in super shape now is an even greater sign on that front, the work ethic concerns bug me though and I don't shrug it off or excuse it like some do albeit hopefully he's turned the corner on that front and there are some good signs that he has.  I like Haskins' competitive game day moxie.   I like his accuracy in the intermediate part of the field in between the numbers albeit he can throw it a bit high to his receivers in that range when they are 15 yards plus down the field.  I think he'd benefit from a tall play making TE but alas I don't think that dude is on our roster. 

 

Murray flashed at times last year.  I think he's going to kill it this season albeit his size-durability is an obvious concern.  He has a quick release, strong arm and the dude obviously can move.  IMO he has the most upside among that QB group. 

[goskins10]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

For me I am still right where I was before the draft:

Murray

Lock

DH 

Jones 

Minshew

 

My main difference from then, is that Jones is better than I thought he would be.  I am not as down on him as some are on this thread about him, and it feels funny for me to say that considering I was really tough on the dude.  I think Giant fans have enough material for the moment to make the case that Jones might be the better QB.  My gut is that Haskins though ends up better than Jones.  The story though still needs to play out.  Jones still has turnover issues that plagued him in college and ditto accuracy problems past the 10 yard line.  Those were some of my concerns about him before the draft. 

 

edit

 

And Giants fans have been all over the place touting Jones as their savior at QB. If you look at just pure overall numbers for last season yes you can maybe make an argument that Jones had a better season. But when you look deeper into the data, I believe it paints a different picture. Full disclosure i did not want Haskins, at least not at 15. 

 

I have done this comparison enough I should just keep it handy. But I have not so far. I am glad to produce exact numbers but don;t have the time right now. 

 

Again, pure numbers favors Jones. He 24 TDs to just 12 Ints. His completion % was a few points higher at 61.9% vs Haskins 58.6%. Not a huge difference but enough. His atts were much greater at 38/gm vs haskins 26/gm. Not sure that is good or bad. It did give him more chances. Callahans plodding Off to play it safe (not a bad thing necessarily) kept Haskins atts down. 

 

So here is where it gets interesting. Jones TOs are way more than Haskins. Along with his 12 ints, he had 17 fumbles losing 10 (in his 12 starts). Haskins had just 4 ints and 6 fumbles only losing 2 in his 7 starts. That is 6 TOs in 7 gms for Haskins vs 22 TOs in just 12 games!  That.s almost 2 TOs a gme vs 1. That is enough to lose games. 

 

Now, about the TDs - Jones did have 24 TDs. However, if you look at where they came - he had 13 TDs in 3 gms - 4 on Det, 4 on Jets and 5 against us. The 3 worst Ds in football. So in his 9 other starts he had just 11 TDs. 

 

Last but not least, just looking at performances of both over the year, Jones started much better than Haskins - hard not to. But he had a nice start. But then he never really got any better. You could even make an argument that he got worse. Where Haskins clearly improved. 

 

While there is no doubt ones started better - Haskins clearly ended the season better. Jones had 4 yrs in a NFL type offense so he was more comfortable. But defenses started making life hard on him - outside our pathetic group of course. But Haskins was going TD to TD with Jones until he got injured. And Haskins finished really strong. In fairness it was just 7 total games so not enough for Ds to focus in on what you like to do. 

 

In the end I see them as a dead heat. Neither one can really claim to be better at this point than the other. This next year will determine their career path. I like Haskins chances as I think he is just a better athlete. Jones has some physical limitations. SO I see him with a lower ceiling. But that could still be say anothre Eli who plays well when it's needed and cna win some championships with a good team around him. 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

4 hours ago, goskins10 said:

 

In the end I see them as a dead heat. Neither one can really claim to be better at this point than the other. This next year will determine their career path. I like Haskins chances as I think he is just a better athlete. Jones has some physical limitations. SO I see him with a lower ceiling. But that could still be say anothre Eli who plays well when it's needed and cna win some championships with a good team around him. 

 

 

I agree.  Not enough data to make definitive conclusions right now.   I've watched Haskins in camp and like all of us here I watched his games.  However, I've seen more of Jones because he played more games.  The both have strengths and weaknesses including athletically.

 

As for who is the better athlete to me it depends on what aspect we are focusing on.  Haskins' arm > Jones.  Jones-speed-mobility > Haskins.  Jones ran a 4.67, rushed for almost 300 yards.  I was a critic of his college play but could see the dude has some sneaky athleticism.  Haskins is a better athlete than I expected but he still doesn't hit me as a 4.6 type of guy. 

 

I get the analogy to EIi.   Their personalities match and they even look alike.  They are both also streaky.  They are also different in some ways in that Jones' strength IMO is toughness in the pocket and mobility.  Both were Eli's weaknesses.  Eli i thought was really accurate with intermediate throws -- Jones not so much. 

 

As I've said, it's tough for me to land a strong position on either one.  I think it needs to unfold some more for both.  So I agree with your point.   But since I was really tough on Jones on the draft thread, I am pulling back a little on that.  He showed more than I expected.  I do think though if a Redskins fan wants to take a homer view that Haskins is better.  I think they can put together that case.  And if a Giants fan wants to do the same for Jones.  They can put together that case, too.  Heck two of his wins were against us. 

 

Personally, as you know I am not shy about taking a strong position on a QB and I'll take some arrows from some that often comes with it.  But on Haskins and Jones, I have a hard time landing hard on a call.  I can see it go either way for both of them.  If I had to bet on one i'd bet on Haskins but some of that is just pure gut.

[redskinss]

It's also going to be interesting seeing how much more athletic haskins is with the weight loss.

He surprised us all with his ability to slide in the pocket last year and if he has lost ten to 15 lbs he easily could surprise us again. 

 

[goskins10]

25 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I agree.  Not enough data to make definitive conclusions right now.   I've watched Haskins in camp and like all of us here I watched his games.  However, I've seen more of Jones because he played more games.  The both have the strengths and weaknesses including athletically.

 

As for who is the better athlete to me it depends on what aspect we are focusing on.  Haskins' arm > Jones.  Jones-speed-mobility > Haskins.  Jones ran a 4.67, rushed for almost 300 yards.  I was a critic of his college play but could see the dude has some sneaky athleticism.  Haskins is a better athlete than I expected but he still doesn't hit me as a 4.6 type of guy. 

 

edit

 

I think we are mostly aligned here. One more thing about mobility. I believe Haskins mobility has been under-rated. If you talk pure speed, then OK. But for me it's a combination of speed and also pocket awareness and capabilities while on the move. Haskins started out horrible at this but as the season went on he got better and better. He made some really nice plays while moving including he had some really nice runs. I am very interested in his more lean body shape. He may surprise you with his speed. May not change but I bet he got faster or at least quicker. 

 

There is also the variable of which coaching staff puts a better team around who and do they work the offense around what each respective QB excels at. 

 

 

 

 

 

[redskinss]

Among 42 quarterbacks who attempted at least 25 deep passes in 2019, his passer rating of 17.0 on those throws ranked dead-last by a tremendous margin. He completed just 27 percent of his passes that traveled 15-plus yards for zero touchdowns and four interceptions. 

 

I was reading an article on him and came across this alarming stat.

I knew he had some struggles on his deep balls because of poor mechanics but I didn't realize it was quite this bad.

[JoggingGod]

Jones has an entirely new staff too

[goskins10]

2 minutes ago, JoggingGod said:

Jones has an entirely new staff too

 

FIxed it. Doing too many things at once. 

 

[redskinss]

6 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

Haskins is again starting ot behind since Jones is in his 2nd season with that staff. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the giants fired their entire coaching staff as well?

[goskins10]

Just now, redskinss said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the giants fired their entire coaching staff as well?

 

Already fixed - read above. 

[RawRebel]

1 hour ago, redskinss said:

Among 42 quarterbacks who attempted at least 25 deep passes in 2019, his passer rating of 17.0 on those throws ranked dead-last by a tremendous margin. He completed just 27 percent of his passes that traveled 15-plus yards for zero touchdowns and four interceptions. 

 

I was reading an article on him and came across this alarming stat.

I knew he had some struggles on his deep balls because of poor mechanics but I didn't realize it was quite this bad.

What quarterback are we talking about here? 

[Rex Tomb]

16 minutes ago, RawRebel said:

What quarterback are we talking about here? 

Must be Haskins, but honestly I throw any of these types of stats away. He had 6 starts in a run heavy offense and had little to no time to develop a feel for his WRs besides McLaurin.  Looking forward to seeing him play this Fall.

[goskins10]

31 minutes ago, RawRebel said:

What quarterback are we talking about here? 

 

I just found it on Bleacher Report and it is about Haskins. I tend not to pay much attention to them myself but it's not all bad. The quote from above is almost at the end of the article.

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2889707

 

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, goskins10 said:

 

I think we are mostly aligned here. One more thing about mobility. I believe Haskins mobility has been under-rated. If you talk pure speed, then OK. But for me it's a combination of speed and also pocket awareness and capabilities while on the move. Haskins started out horrible at this but as the season went on he got better and better. He made some really nice plays while moving including he had some really nice runs. I am very interested in his more lean body shape. He may surprise you with his speed. May not change but I bet he got faster or at least quicker. 

 

There is also the variable of which coaching staff puts a better team around who and do they work the offense around what each respective QB excels at. 

 

 

Haskins mobility was a surprise to me.  I think his pocket awareness and scrambling ability are good, too.  I don't think he throws the ball though that well on the move, his foot work isn't that hot IMO when he throws from outside of the pocket.  Although Haskins surprised me as for his mobility being better than what it was at Ohio State, Jones IMO is a clearly a peg higher on that front.  Jones is a flat out threat with his legs, he just takes off and runs sometimes and can evade pressure.  A QB who can run 4.67 is relatively fast and he looks that fast on the field, he's decisive when he justs takes off and doesn't take long for him to reach his full speed. 

 

Jones has his faults which I've happily expressed.  Turnovers and inconsistency.  But one of his strengths is he is an above average athlete in terms of mobility for a QB.  Maybe the new even more slimmed down version of Haskins catches up on that front.   But to me it doesn't really matter that much.  Mobility isn't all.  The two are apples to oranges as QBs.  I doubt Haskins ever matches Jones' mobility but conversely you can't teach arm strength and Haskins has a rocket of an arm and Jones doesn't.

 

Lock to me is almost the perfect combination of Haskins strengths and Jones' strengths.  Lock has above average mobility and also has a Haskins like rifle of an arm.  He's also IMO better than the both of them as to throwing on the move from weird angles Mahomes' style. 

 

[LD0506]

Everything is supposition and tea leaf reading at this point, but I daresay that if Haskins had come in and had Pat Shurmur crafting a plan for him and calling games to mask his weaknesses and max what he does best, we'd have a lot more on DH (good and bad) to compare him to DJ.

 

I know this really isn't applicable but it strikes me as seriously unfair to compare the two. And tbh, unfair to both, this isn't apples to oranges, this is more saxophones to purple......

[Riggo'sRangers]

1 hour ago, LD0506 said:

Everything is supposition and tea leaf reading at this point, but I daresay that if Haskins had come in and had Pat Shurmur crafting a plan for him and calling games to mask his weaknesses and max what he does best, we'd have a lot more on DH (good and bad) to compare him to DJ.

 

I know this really isn't applicable but it strikes me as seriously unfair to compare the two. And tbh, unfair to both, this isn't apples to oranges, this is more saxophones to purple......

Jay really did him no favors last year IMHO.  He was not prepared the first time he was basically thrown out there.  The good thing is he did show improvement after Jay's departure, and not really sure if anyone knows exactly what we have in Haskins.  We will have a much better bead on that after this next season hopefully.  

[The Hangman- C_Hanburger]

16 minutes ago, Riggo'sRangers said:

Jay really did him no favors last year IMHO.  He was not prepared the first time he was basically thrown out there.  The good thing is he did show improvement after Jay's departure, and not really sure if anyone knows exactly what we have in Haskins.  We will have a much better bead on that after this next season hopefully.  

If EVERYONE knows what you are doing and you don't adjust..how the hell do you expect a QB to produce..... Jay is the reason the O didn't go...NOT DH

 

He's also the reason Smith got hurt..freeking sending the blocking back out against that D front..GOD I am glad he's gone...

[arftech]

Edit..

 

[HTTRDynasty]

 

[Panninho]

You know talk is talk but there is some serious growth shown in these words.