FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[HTTRDynasty]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

And in the 2nd, 350 plus yards with almost a 70 QBR.  I didn't realize until just looking at his numbers as to how well he played against us.   

 

I would hope so, with Dunbar, Moreau and Moreland all on IR, with Danny Johnson, Aaron Colvin and Coty Sensabaugh starting in place of them.

 

[bakedtater1]

1 hour ago, Llevron said:

 

Whats your point? You mean to tell me that starting week one and knowing during the off-season you are going to be the starter with a coaching staff dedicated to making a game plan to help you alone would be THAT much more beneficial to a young QB??

 

Good players are good players and the cream rises to the crop. **** all that other noise. Also Fumbles dont count. 

Yeah haskins didn't start week 1..different situations between the two qb's..there shouldn't even be a comparison for the two.

[XxSpearheadxX]

man haskins has a rocket on him . Its been a while since I've watched him play. 

[Skinsinparadise]

24 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

I would hope so, with Dunbar, Moreau and Moreland all on IR, with Danny Johnson, Aaron Colvin and Coty Sensabaugh starting in place of them.

 

 

The Giants secondary wasn't murders row, either.  It was horrendous.  2nd worst pass defense in the league last year, worse than us.   So if context doesn't matter for Haskins and we are going to celebrate that performance versus the Giants as evidence that he progressed and by extension that Giants game means more than the games he played earlier against better defenses like Buffalo, Minny, etc -- then wouldn't the same point apply to Jones?  That was my point.  I got no problem giving props to BOTH Haskins and Jones for beating up on a defense that deserves to beat up. 

 

There is some value to beating up on a bad defense and I got no issue with those touting Haskins on that front.  I get no problem with the sentiment.  You still got to complete your passes and make plays regardless of how good the opposition is or not.  It would seem hypocritical for me though to discount Jones for the same thing Haskins has been praised a lot for.  

 

But again I hope Daniel Jones ends up as bad as some here think he is.   I don't get Kiper among others fascination with him as if he had some killer year.  I think his season was decent for a rookie but nothing really overly special.   But to my eyes, he doesn't look like a bust either, IMO he can play.  

 

However if he ends up as bad as some here seem to think, it would redeem me for all my hits on him on the draft thread that year, directed at him.  😀   So my fingers crossed that Jones' critics here end up on the money. 

[HTTRDynasty]

25 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

The Giants secondary wasn't murders row, either.  It was horrendous.  2nd worst pass defense in the league last year, worse than us.   

 

Does that matter when we're starting guys off the street?  Our CBs at that point were far worse than theirs.

 

You can't take the ranking we had all season with our starters and apply that ranking to our backups as well.

 

But anyway, interceptable passes generally correlate at a higher rate, year-to-year, than actual interceptions, so Jones' 2:1 TD to INT ratio doesn't impress me when he should have had many more INTs than he actually had.

 

 

 

Fumbles also have a reasonably high correlation from year-to-year for QBs and he led the league in that stat.

 

 

Jones is like a poor man's Jameis Winston.  I think his supporters are laser focused on his "highs" to the exclusion of all else, which was also the case with Winston for years, until reality finally caught up with fans that you can't win games with that play-style, which is a big reason why he ended up signing for a $1mm deal as a backup.

 

 

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

31 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Does that matter when we're starting guys off the street?  Our CBs at that point were far worse than theirs.

 

You can't take the ranking we had all season with our starters and apply that ranking to our backups as well.

 

But anyway, interceptable passes generally correlate at a higher rate, year-to-year, than actual interceptions, so Jones' 2:1 TD to INT ratio doesn't impress me when he should have had many more INTs than he currently had.

 

 

 

Fumbles also have a reasonably high correlation from year-to-year for QBs and he led the league in that stat.

 

 

Jones is like a poor man's Jameis Winston.  I think his supporters are laser focused on his "highs" to the exclusion of all else, which was also the case with Winston for years, until reality finally caught up that you can't win games with that play-style and he signed for a $1mm deal as a backup.

 

 

 

 

I don't care if it was the Giants starters are not.  You can start and still stink.  Baker's PFF rating was in the 40s, Bellentine was in the 30s.  They were atrocious.  

 

But regardless, I've made my point.  I don't care to get that deep into the semantics of which defense was worse that day the Giants or Redskins.   

 

Some here seem to have made up their mind about both Haskins and Jones.   There is no one here I think that has bashed Jones more than me leading up to the draft. 

 

I am undecided about both.  If you think you got them both figured out well in your head and its Haskins = good and Jones = bad.  I am not arguing your conclusion.  It's possible.  my argument is its too soon to tell.   It's not really hard to argue for one versus another, it just depends on how you decide to value the different context-numbers involving both.

 

I honestly I got no idea.  And I am not gun shy at taking positions on QBs so if I had a strong position you'd hear one.  I had a strong anti-Jones take before the draft but after seeing him play, I think I was too harsh on him.  Sounds like plenty here think I was dead on correct.  And like I said, I'd love to end up correct on it.  I am just not that confident on that point right now.  For me, I got to see another chapter in that story versus thinking the book's conclusion is already obvious.  

[MartinC]

39 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

But again I hope Daniel Jones ends up as bad as some here think he is.   I don't get Kiper among others fascination with him as if he had some killer year.  I think his season was decent for a rookie but nothing really overly special.   But to my eyes, he doesn't look like a bust either, IMO he can play.  

 

 

If Jones was a Redskin we would be greatly encouraged by his rookie year. He absolutely showed he can play in the NFL. But we would also be picking apart his turnovers, lack of pocket presence/awareness and worrying about his ceiling. Just how far can a team go with him at QB without an absolutely stellar supporting cast around him? He screams a 7-9 win QB to me.

[Burgold]

As for the leadership thing, it’s very tough to be a leader when the boss makes it clear he doesn’t believe in you, like you, or trust you. 
 

I think that was the case last year. Gruden loudly proclaimed in words and actions that Haskins wasn’t ready or capable of being the man. Is it any wonder he had a tough time convincing the vets to rally around him?

[Number 44]

13 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

I don't care if it was the Giants starters are not.  You can start and still stink.  Baker's PFF rating was in the 40s, Bellentine was in the 30s.  They were atrocious.  

 

But regardless, I've made my point.  I don't care to get that deep into the semantics of which defense was worse that day the Giants or Redskins.   

 

Some here seem to have made up their mind about both Haskins and Jones.   There is no one here I think that has bashed Jones more than me leading up to the draft. 

 

I am undecided about both.  If you think you got them both figured out well in your head and its Haskins = good and Jones = bad.  I am not arguing your conclusion.  It's possible.  my argument is its too soon to tell.   It's not really hard to argue for one versus another, it just depends on how you decide to value the different context-numbers involving both.

 

I honestly I got no idea.  And I am not gun shy at taking positions on QBs so if I had a strong position you'd hear one.  I had a strong anti-Jones take before the draft but after seeing him play, I think I was too harsh on him.  Sounds like plenty here think I was dead on correct.  And like I said, I'd love to end up correct on it.  I am just not that confident on that point right now.  For me, I got to see another chapter in that story versus thinking the book's conclusion is already obvious.  

 

I'm not sure that I understand the angle that you are approaching this from.  It seems to me that the talking heads like Cowherd and Kiper are - by a very wide margin - loudly voicing the opinion that Jones is the greatest thing since sliced bread and that Haskins has no skills whatsoever.  You seem to be arguing that they are saying the reverse.

[HTTRDynasty]

18 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

I don't care if it was the Giants starters are not.  You can start and still stink.  Baker's PFF rating was in the 40s, Bellentine was in the 30s.  They were atrocious.  

 

But regardless, I've made my point.  I don't care to get that deep into the semantics of which defense was worse that day the Giants or Redskins.   

 

Some here seem to have made up their mind about both Haskins and Jones.   There is no one here I think that has bashed Jones more than me leading up to the draft. 

 

I am undecided about both.  If you think you got them both figured out well in your head and its Haskins = good and Jones = bad.  I am not arguing your conclusion.  It's possible.  my argument is its too soon to tell.   It's not really hard to argue for one versus another, it just depends on how you decide to value the different context-numbers involving both.

 

I honestly I got no idea.  And I am not gun shy at taking positions on QBs so if I had a strong position you'd hear one.  I had a strong anti-Jones take before the draft but after seeing him play, I think I was too harsh on him.  Sounds like plenty here think I was dead on correct.  And like I said, I'd love to end up correct on it.  I am just not that confident on that point right now.  For me, I got to see another chapter in that story versus thinking the book's conclusion is already obvious.  

 

Okay, I get that.  But I wasn't arguing that.  I was arguing who had the better season last year.  From where you said:

 

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Jones had the better season clearly but he had more college experience and the context was different.  

 

I don't agree.  Neither do most advanced analytics sites.  

 

But that's fine.  I get your overall point that you're undecided on both, which I am to an extent as well by the way.  No sense debating it further.

[Skinsinparadise]

21 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

If Jones was a Redskin we would be greatly encouraged by his rookie year. He absolutely showed he can play in the NFL. But we would also be picking apart his turnovers, lack of pocket presence/awareness and worrying about his ceiling. Just how far can a team go with him at QB without an absolutely stellar supporting cast around him? He screams a 7-9 win QB to me.

 

I recall my take on him on the draft thread that year was that he was Case Keenum as to caliber of play. I watched 5 of his college games if I recall right and watched a lot of his interviews so I dove deep into him among the other QBs, then.   I didn't think then he'd be a bust but I thought he had a high floor-low ceiling.  I didn't think much of his intangibles because he seemed so quiet and awkward in his interviews.   

 

The other comparison I used with him was Alex Smith stylistically but with turnovers.  I used the Alex analogy because he was sneaky athletic and tough but also very conservative as to avoiding tough window throws.   He had a high rate of tipped balls and fumbles in college.  I ripped him to death on the draft thread from the context of I didn't want him here. 😀  My point is Alex is about avoiding mistakes.  So if you are getting mistakes, then you are missing the boat on what Alex brought.   Thereby Alex > Jones. 

 

I saw most of his Giants games and I was more impressed than I expected on 2 fronts.  With the Giants, he was actually more daring than I expected as for throwing the ball down the field.  The Alex comp on that front didn't apply.  And I recall a Giants reporter saying they love him in that building as to intangibles, he's first to come last to leave, up at times at 4 am to prepare so he has that desire to be great.  He also showed a little more personality than I expected.  His fumbling issue from college though carried over.  I wasn't smitten by his play, he was up and down, but his up moments were higher than I expected.  

 

One of the more optimistic dudes I can think of as to both Haskins and Jones where one isn't bashed in the process is Scot McCloughan who talked about both on Sheehan's show.  He said he liked both guys, Sheehan asked him who did he like better before the draft and he said Jones but he said he also thinks Haskins will be good. 

 

But I agree the take on both somewhat depends on perspective.  I noticed on twitter and elsewhere, Giant fans are chesty that Jones is better.  And here, many think we got the better QB.  I got no beef with either argument because where I am at is I really don't know.  And purely from an ego stand point, I'd love to join in on bashing Daniel Jones because I really laid out my criticism on him thick on the draft thread that year.  And we all like to be right?  😀    But now i am just putting on the breaks a little bit on that and want to see a greater sample size before I feel like I know definitively about either QB. 

11 minutes ago, Number 44 said:

 

I'm not sure that I understand the angle that you are approaching this from.  It seems to me that the talking heads like Cowherd and Kiper are - by a very wide margin - loudly voicing the opinion that Jones is the greatest thing since sliced bread and that Haskins has no skills whatsoever.  You seem to be arguing that they are saying the reverse.

 

Where did I say they said the reverse?  I am giving my own opinion on it which is at this moment I don't feel comfortable landing on a hard opinion on either Haskins or Jones. 

 

As for talking heads, Haskins has his fans in the mix.  My point on Kiper and Cowherd is they in my mind are ridiculously carried away about Jones.  But Cowherd I don't take seriously anyway. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Reading his quotes, my best guess is no on Cam but maybe if he's dirt cheap and no one else picks him up?   I think Cam is too big of a name and personality to keep as a backup.

 

His quote "I am not sure if I would do it, and I am not sure I wouldn't do it."

 

 

 

[Est.1974]

8 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Reading his quotes, my best guess is no on Cam but maybe if he's dirt cheap and no one else picks him up?   I think Cam is too big of a name and personality to keep as a backup.

 

His quote "I am not sure if I would do it, and I am not sure I wouldn't do it."

 

I think another factor is Alex Smith. 
 

If Smith were to retire / be released / Cam in as the vet I could see.

 

Cam and Alex Smith on the roster. Not sure that would happen. 
 

Newton likely can’t prove his fitness yet as well.

[Skinsinparadise]

51 minutes ago, Burgold said:

As for the leadership thing, it’s very tough to be a leader when the boss makes it clear he doesn’t believe in you, like you, or trust you. 
 

I think that was the case last year. Gruden loudly proclaimed in words and actions that Haskins wasn’t ready or capable of being the man. Is it any wonder he had a tough time convincing the vets to rally around him?

 

If we are talking about the Doc Walker narrative IMO (I've heard Doc talk about Haskins enough that i think I got a handle on his take) this has zero to do with Jay.   Haskins from some have said is a bit of a quiet guy.  I've mentioned before about my few brief interactions as to watching him interact with fans including my kids.  He comes off at least in those settings a bit shy and soft spoken compared to the typical player but also a super nice guy, very friendly. 

 

 For the practices i've watched, Haskins though at times could get boisterous after a big play.  So he has it in him to bring that leadership-energy.  And likewise we saw it when they beat the Lions.

 

When I watched that Amazon series about the Panthers, it gave a good dose of Cam's personality.  And Cam is a take charge, large personality type.  Haskins i am guessing is not always that type of personality.  It's part of the reason why I doubt they bring Cam.  Cam's personality IMO would just likely take over that room.  

[Burgold]

I can't see Cam coming in. Doesn't fit the rebuild they are going for.

[Skinsinparadise]

10 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

I think another factor is Alex Smith. 
 

If Smith were to retire / be released / Cam in as the vet I could see.

 

Cam and Alex Smith on the roster. Not sure that would happen. 
 

Newton likely can’t prove his fitness yet as well.

 

It would be cool to see Alex return and I am rooting for it.  He'd be a major upgrade at backup QB and likely could challenge to start.   I wasn't as big on Alex as some but not as harsh as some others but I think he was a decent QB and a bonafide good guy-leader.   But I seriously doubt that it ever happens.

 

It's just tough for me to see Newton being satisfied with anything other than starting.  He's has a big ego and big personality and I mean that in a good way but I think it would be too big on both fronts for this situation. 

[sjinhan]

3 minutes ago, Burgold said:

I can't see Cam coming in. Doesn't fit the rebuild they are going for.

If Chase Young and Del Rio elevates the defense not just one level but 2-3 levels above their past performances then I think many of us would have wished to have Cam on board for this upcoming season.

 

rebuild will scrapped if defense performs at a level we are all hoping for...

[Est.1974]

9 minutes ago, Burgold said:

I can't see Cam coming in. Doesn't fit the rebuild they are going for.

Cam is only just turning 31 in May

[Riggo#44]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I have a lot invested for Daniel Jones to fail. 😀

 

We all do. Giants fans have become supremely annoying, acting like they are perennial contenders, and 2011 was last year. They certainly don't act like they've lost the most games in the NFL over the last 3 years.

Just now, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

Cam is only just turning 31 in May

He's also going to demand starting, and probably other requirements. I don't want him here.

[Est.1974]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

It would be cool to see Alex return and I am rooting for it.  He'd be a major upgrade at backup QB and likely could challenge to start.   I wasn't as big on Alex as some but not as harsh as some others but I think he was a decent QB and a bonafide good guy-leader.   But I seriously doubt that it ever happens.

 

It's just tough for me to see Newton being satisfied with anything other than starting.  He's has a big ego and big personality and I mean that in a good way but I think it would be too big on both fronts for this situation. 

Smith, I mean I was in favour of his original signing. But now, I’m afraid he’s needs to be shut down. New era, new offense, new scheme. Smith, with the greatest respect in the world, simply needs to be off the roster come September.

6 minutes ago, sjinhan said:

If Chase Young and Del Rio elevates the defense not just one level but 2-3 levels above their past performances then I think many of us would have wished to have Cam on board for this upcoming season.

 

rebuild will scrapped if defense performs at a level we are all hoping for...

I agree. Can’t see the QBs getting a long leash at all if the defense tears it up for nothing.

[Est.1974]

4 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

He's also going to demand starting, and probably other requirements. I don't want him here.

That depends on how many options/offers he has on the table.

 

Im sure if he has a starting job offered elsewhere, he’ll take it. If he has no other options, or they are far from appealing, you never know. 
 

Personally I’m not fussed either way. If RR wants him, I’m fine with that. If he doesn’t want him, same goes, fine by me.

[Skinsinparadise]

11 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

We all do. Giants fans have become supremely annoying, acting like they are perennial contenders, and 2011 was last year. They certainly don't act like they've lost the most games in the NFL over the last 3 years.

 

 

I've been saying it for years on the Giants-Redskins game threads.  We don't hate that team enough.  They are just as obnoxious as the other 2 NFC East fan bases from my experience and they have no reason to be.

 

 

 

 

Thinking about it some more.  Based on circumstances could mean if no one picks him up, and we have an injury.....

 

It's not that I dislike Cam.  I think when he was at his prime, he was great.  But wonder about his health now and got doubts he would be at ease as a backup if that's how it went down. 

 

 

 

[JoggingGod]

One of the things that’s different going  into the season is Haskins body. I know some dog him for posting his workouts on social media but he very clearly lost weight. He looks more swole and his feet look lighter when he drops back. That will help him a lot in evading pressure vs last year.

[HTTRDynasty]

22 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

Cam is only just turning 31 in May

 

His body has taken the punishment of a 50 year old QB though.

 

What's the point of bringing him in and ruining Haskins' confidence and development only to have him get injured mid-way through the season?