FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[Burgundy Yoda]

Can't really put much weight into what some of these guys are reporting about Haskins. Especially if they're under Snyder's payroll, after Foster's injury I can see fabricated events and information being put out on social media to generate some hype behind the team and get people excited. Obviously rooting for Dwayne, but I've followed this team long enough to know better. 

[volsmet]

28 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

I like everything I’m hearing. The only thing is we have to rely on Jay to make the right decision. 🙄

 

We need Guice to block like Portis used to, one of the keys to OSU’s success was how well their backs picked things up for DH. 

 

4.4     4.3    OT-G-C-G-OT  4.3     4.3

             

                        RB DH

 

The back as the 6th blocker with 4 wide getting a slot 4.3 guy on a lb or S was something they exploited with regularity, then the screens that seemed to always work when an opponent decided to get more aggressive. OSU could exploit everyone with their athletes & DH getting the ball out, no team could get to DH before one of those elite athletes beat a far inferior athlete — the most positive thing I saw with DH was his feel for hitting open spots in zones — that’s work done during the week, that’s not the fun stuff & he excelled with it, particularly for a guy who was in his first year starting.

 

[Vanguard]

40 minutes ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

Can't really put much weight into what some of these guys are reporting about Haskins. Especially if they're under Snyder's payroll, after Foster's injury I can see fabricated events and information being put out on social media to generate some hype behind the team and get people excited. Obviously rooting for Dwayne, but I've followed this team long enough to know better. 

 

I’ve heard the same things from people not on Snyder’s payroll on NFL Network.

[Burgundy Yoda]

Just now, Vanguard said:

 

I’ve heard the same things from people not on Snyder’s payroll on NFL Network.

Yeah but it could just be repeated information from people on Snyders payroll. If they've witnessed him looking good with their own eyes, that's definitely a good sign. 

[CrypticVillain]

56 minutes ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

Yeah but it could just be repeated information from people on Snyders payroll. If they've witnessed him looking good with their own eyes, that's definitely a good sign. 

There's a couple of people on the beat that I trust that are saying he looked good (Yesterday) through various tweets and articles...

 

I also know it was just day one of OTAs, we have a long way to go.

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

Curious to why the boom/bust is attached to Haskins in your view?

 

It seems his floor would be that of a middling QB— His football IQ and ability pre snap eliminates bust. QBs 10-25, IMO never reach higher levels due to an inability to  manage chaos consistently or enough (whatever that means), especially against better teams or when game plan isn’t solid that day. 

 

Not an argument I’m sold on, just my impressions early in the process. Still open minded lol

 

LOL, I'll answer as long as nothing here is cherry picked especially the negative stuff.  Boom-bust means good or bad.  So I don't want to be dragged into just the bad part of my narrative. 😀  Because for me I don't want to dwell on negativity.  I got some optimism on Haskins and hope he works out.  I share your belief that a franchise QB can change everything.  So i got my fingers crossed that he is the answer. 

 

I'll start with the negative.  There were multiple people including Scot McCloughan who said he's Leftwich to a tee.  In short, they see a guy with a strong arm but who isn't mobile and who will struggle with pressure.  The thing is in college you don't have to worry about it as much.  You got much more clean pockets.  And with Haskins when you factor his great protection and the quick game they used to get the ball out of his hands with short throws -- it was tailor made for him.  If I recall among the draft eligible QBs, he had the most YAC from receivers and throws at or behind the line of scrimmage, etc.  In short, i don't think he will have that type of set up in the NFL.   I've elaborated a lot more than this but my post is too long as it is. 

 

I said this before the draft the hard thing about Haskins is you see exceptions to everything.  I see him at times move well in the pocket.  I don't think he's great at throwing intermediate out routs but once in awhile he will throw a beauty of an out route.   As i said on the draft thread, you can use highlights of Haskins to defeat almost any criticism because he will provide exceptions.    My hope is these exceptions become the norm or the coaches can make it the norm. 

 

We've had guys here before with intriguing arm talent.  Ramsey.  RG3.  Campbell.  Especially RG3.  So while I do value that I also want players who can operate well with pressure and make plays when things break down.     And if i am misperceiving Haskins on that count or they fix his ability to make plays outside of the pocket and when under pressure -- then I think the dude is a franchise QB for sure. 

 

As to what i like.  The balls just jumps out of his hand.  I love QBs who have live arms like that.  In that way he reminds me of RG3.  I also think (unlike RG3 who arguably had poor field vision) he can see the field well.  You can see that when he did his film breakdowns pre-draft.    His has a quick release and is mostly accurate.  He under throws the deep ball too much but I think he can fix that because he has plenty of arm strength.   He can make some pretty throws.  Among the QBs from this draft aside from Murray the dude who had the most highlights I liked was Haskins.   In other words, if I judged him the way Shanny supposedly judges draft prospects which is take their best plays and assume you can bring that out of them on a regular basis -- then Haskins passes that test in my book with flying colors. 

 

Bob McGinn a reporter who is famous for building relationships with scouts and doing mocks over the years does a paid subscription now.  His top 100 from what I recall reading ended up being the 3rd most accurate top 100 during the draft -- that top 100 was compiled using the scouts takes.   So I can't link it here but this is the scouts take on Haskins via McGinn's sources.  And again here you see polarizing positions, some seeing greatness, some saying he'd be an average QB at best with that being his ceiling. Some thinking he makes plays on the move well, some don't. 

 

2. DWAYNE HASKINS, Ohio State (6-3 ½, 229, 5.02, 1): Rewrote the Big Ten record book in only season as a starter with 4,831 yards and 50 TD passes. “He threw 50 touchdown passes and they run the ball there,” one scout said. “He is a really good pocket passer that can also roll out and throw on the move. He’s not a runner. Being a black guy people think he’s going to be an athlete-runner. He’s not, but he has good feet. He’s far from a statue. The guy can throw the ball. Holy hell. Big-time arm. Accurate. He’s just not ready to be an NFL starter.” Turns 22 a week after the draft. Played eight games off the bench in 2017, igniting a comeback victory at Michigan in relief of injured J.T. Barrett, and started 14 games in ’18. Third-year sophomore bypassed his final two seasons. “He reminded me of Steve McNair (6-1 1/2, 225), and it wasn’t because McNair was black,” another scout said. “He didn’t have great speed, either, but he knew how to move around in the pocket. Haskins is a pocket guy. He’s exactly what you want in the National Football League. Some day, (Patrick) Mahomes is going to get hurt. Deshaun Watson is always hurt. RGIII got hurt. This guy is special.” Passer rating of 123.2 in 2018.

 

“If he’s at his best he’s a bottom-15 QB in the NFL,” a third scout said. “Franchise quarterbacks make everybody better. He’s not that guy. He needs to be on a good team like he had at Ohio State. If he has no talent around him you’re talking about a 2-14, 3-13 season. He is not dynamic enough to bring them out of that. He gets a little long and a little high on his throws at times, the deep corners. I worry a little bit about his weight. Obviously, he’s probably in the best shape he’ll ever be in now.” Compounded his bad 40 at the combine by electing not to try again at his pro day. “His stats kind of lie,” said a fourth scout. “When he’s working within the rhythm of that offense he can pick people apart. Makes it easy for him. When he gets pressured and things get in his face he’s not accurate and sprays the ball.

 

He just can’t move his body around well enough in the pocket because he’s slow-footed. That will continue in the NFL. His movements remind me of Jameis Winston. He was an awkward athlete. He sprayed the ball over when he got pressured. Or Byron Leftwich. I just don’t see him as a constant playoff threat, the kind of quarterback you will have to worry about.” Should become the Buckeyes’ first QB taken in the first round since Art Schlichter went No. 4 in 1982. “When you see Dwayne have to throw from an NFL-type pocket, a muddled pocket, he is frantic,” said a fifth scout. “The accuracy changes. When it’s clean, yeah, he’s got a whip. Problem is when there’s inversions from different points. Tom Brady, Drew Brees, they’re exceptional working the pocket. I don’t see that with him. Can he develop it? I don’t know.” From Potomac, Md. Wonderlic of 25. Added a sixth scout: “No quarterback likes to get hit but I really don’t think he likes to get hit. That’s the biggest thing with Dwayne. He rushes the ball out of his hand a lot. Other guys are willing to hold that ball to the last (second) to let that route clear open. He didn’t show the willingness to do that. You can go almost entire games without seeing Dwayne Haskins on the ground.”

[volsmet]

👆

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

I mean, how many constant playoff QB's are there in the league?  Very few.  In your average NFL season, almost half the teams from the previous years playoffs, don't make it again the next year.  Prime Rodgers, Russell Wilson, Tom Brady, and Peyton are the only guys I can think of whose teams are almost always in the playoffs.  Brees, Newton, Rivers, Ryan, and Roethlisberger are hit and miss.  Those teams tend to be in the playoffs for 2-3 years in a row while talent on the roster is high.

 

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

We've had guys here before with intriguing arm talent.  Ramsey.  RG3.  Campbell.  Especially RG3.  So while I do value that I also want players who can operate well with pressure and make plays when things break down.     And if i am misperceiving Haskins on that count or they fix his ability to make plays outside of the pocket and when under pressure -- then I think the dude is a franchise QB for sure. 

 

 

I think if I had to rank them by arm talent.  RG3 > Haskins > Ramsey > Campbell.  Not a reflection of overall talent, just arm talent.  One thing that RG3 never seemed to have a grasp for was Protections.  He could execute some play designs well.  Ball hiked > check Defender A > react accordingly.  But if another look is shown pre-snap, and Defender B is who he should instead be reading, then struggles happened.

 

Tom Brady has never had great arm talent.  He's a system QB, who can execute the system at a consistently high level.  He's the definition of why being a "system QB" isn't a bad thing.  Haskins is a system QB, who projects as someone who might be able to execute the system at a high level.  How consistent?  We won't know until seasons from now.  It could be a LONG wait.  Matt Ryan was a hit or miss QB until 3 seasons ago.  He's only become consistently good, since then.  I think something clicked with his last year under Shanahan.  But that light bulb that went on for Ryan, happened in his 9th season.

 

I don't like the comparison of Byron Leftwich.  Good height?  Check.  Great arm?  Check.  Pocket QB?  Check.  Similar slow wind-up delivery?  No...this is where the comp falls apart, and I can't get past that.  Leftwich's release could be timed with a sundial.

 

I think Haskins compares better to Matt Ryan.

[Llevron]

True, Leftwich would kill for Haskins release.

[Stormy]

I went to OTAs today, and liked what I saw of Haskins throughout. He seems fully engaged in learning from every bit of instruction he gets after each rep, and he rarely is seen more than a few steps removed from Kevin and/or Jay.

 

During the 11-on-11 portions of practice, he was mostly smooth, decisive and even moved around in the pocket fairly adeptly. When he sets his feet and quickly identifies a target, he releases some absolute lasers that arrive with good touch, location and accuracy. Combine those assets with his mental acumen and poise (poise in general, not yet sure about under pressure), and this staff has some great clay to mold. 

 

Just for equal time, he wasn’t perfect when I was watching him. He was slow on a couple of reads, short armed a pass on an out route, and even mishandled a snap that would have been a costly turnover at game speed.  However, the good considerably outweighed the bad. 

 

As an aside, I really liked the skill sets displayed by both McLaurin and Harmon today. Very complementary of each other. McLaurin caught a rocket from Haskins on a slant and found a crease that he might have taken to the house in an actual game... a gear I haven’t seen since DJax took one of those the distance versus the Cards for us. And Harmon looks like he could be a real chain mover and contested ball beast. Looking forward to seeing this tandem get a chance for some looks in 3/4 wide sets. 

 

One last piece of good offensive news too. Haskins has great feel and touch for the screen game, and Chris Thompson should thrive as a result. He looked the healthiest and quickest he’s looked since the opening weeks of 2018. Great seeing him back out there, 

 

 

[clskinsfan]

2 hours ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

I mean, how many constant playoff QB's are there in the league?  Very few.  In your average NFL season, almost half the teams from the previous years playoffs, don't make it again the next year.  Prime Rodgers, Russell Wilson, Tom Brady, and Peyton are the only guys I can think of whose teams are almost always in the playoffs.  Brees, Newton, Rivers, Ryan, and Roethlisberger are hit and miss.  Those teams tend to be in the playoffs for 2-3 years in a row while talent on the roster is high.

 

 

I think if I had to rank them by arm talent.  RG3 > Haskins > Ramsey > Campbell.  Not a reflection of overall talent, just arm talent.  One thing that RG3 never seemed to have a grasp for was Protections.  He could execute some play designs well.  Ball hiked > check Defender A > react accordingly.  But if another look is shown pre-snap, and Defender B is who he should instead be reading, then struggles happened.

 

Tom Brady has never had great arm talent.  He's a system QB, who can execute the system at a consistently high level.  He's the definition of why being a "system QB" isn't a bad thing.  Haskins is a system QB, who projects as someone who might be able to execute the system at a high level.  How consistent?  We won't know until seasons from now.  It could be a LONG wait.  Matt Ryan was a hit or miss QB until 3 seasons ago.  He's only become consistently good, since then.  I think something clicked with his last year under Shanahan.  But that light bulb that went on for Ryan, happened in his 9th season.

 

I don't like the comparison of Byron Leftwich.  Good height?  Check.  Great arm?  Check.  Pocket QB?  Check.  Similar slow wind-up delivery?  No...this is where the comp falls apart, and I can't get past that.  Leftwich's release could be timed with a sundial.

 

I think Haskins compares better to Matt Ryan.

 

Great post. I also like Rivers as a comp to Haskins somewhat. Rivers might be a little better moving around the pocket right now. But it is something Haskins can learn. And Haskins has a better arm and release. 

[volsmet]

8 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

 

Great post. I also like Rivers as a comp to Haskins somewhat. Rivers might be a little better moving around the pocket right now. But it is something Haskins can learn. And Haskins has a better arm and release. 

 

Rivers had so many starts, that’s a big concern for me with DH, he just hasn’t played a lot in anything that was much more than a glorified 7 v 7 — he was the least pressured QB this year & in HS they got the ball out quickly. I would have loved to see him return, minus the OL, RB, & 3 nfl WRs, lead new guys, and work on the things he needs to before stepping into this situation. He was told he was a top 5 pick & next years class is ridiculous, so I don’t blame him, but he hasn’t seen a sniff of what he’s about to & that makes him tougher to project as a guy with such limited experience.

 

[desertbeagle85]

To be fair only game action means anything to me. Heys suppose to look good in practice. It's a little different when you have 250 + pound men in your face.  

 

Now if we get reports that he looks bad or he's missing throws. Well that's a different story. I'd be worried. Either way preseason will give everyone a better feel as to what this kid has. 

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

Go ahead and jump on board.  The kid can play.  A steal at #15.

[zCommander]

4 hours ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

Tom Brady has never had great arm talent.  He's a system QB, who can execute the system at a consistently high level.  He's the definition of why being a "system QB" isn't a bad thing.  Haskins is a system QB, who projects as someone who might be able to execute the system at a high level. 

 

These were my exact thoughts after he was drafted and after hearing about how not so much mobile he his. Don't really need a QB like Vick or RG3 just need someone who is good at reading the defenses and has the ability to move the chains 10-15 yards at a time. This is what Brady does. He moves the chains 10 yards at a time and keeps his offense on the field longer and his D well rested while tiring the other teams D. I can live with that.

 

 

46 minutes ago, desertbeagle85 said:

To be fair only game action means anything to me. Heys suppose to look good in practice. It's a little different when you have 250 + pound men in your face.  

 

Now if we get reports that he looks bad or he's missing throws. Well that's a different story. I'd be worried. Either way preseason will give everyone a better feel as to what this kid has. 

 

The local beat reported said Haskins looks really good, but has to remind himself that it is just the OTAs with no D on the other side coming at him. I think we all know this not just you.

[desertbeagle85]

1 hour ago, zskins said:

 

The local beat reported said Haskins looks really good, but has to remind himself that it is just the OTAs with no D on the other side coming at him. I think we all know this not just you.

 

Others know this yes, but all know this?

 

I doubt it

 

 

[zCommander]

2 hours ago, desertbeagle85 said:

 

Others know this yes, but all know this?

 

I doubt it

 

 

 

I am gonna' go on a limb here and say that everyone on ES know this. There is a reason why this board is called EXTREME SKINS...lol

[Going Commando]

11 hours ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

Haskins is a system QB, who projects as someone who might be able to execute the system at a high level.

 

AKA a good quarterback.  Haskins is special though.  Special arm and special instincts.  He brings the other things you want from a qb to the table too.  Super smart and super confident.  Leader.  Gets the big picture of what his job is and what the offense is trying to do and how.

 

The one question I have is resilience.  Doesn't have enough of a track record to prove he can handle extended periods of struggle.  He's basically only been great.  Gotta be able to handle the bad times too in order to have a long career.

[RandyHolt]

I know many here want him to sit for X number of games without even a QB competition. 4 weeks. The entire year. In for week 6. Week 10 sounds good.

 

I am curious if anyone can rationalize the number of games they chose/give the specific reason you want him to sit no matter what we see in camp/preseason.  Not necessarily specific to Dwayne, for it is what we have learned from PAST QBs failing that is shaping opinions on when HE should start.  Some examples I suspect are a concern to some:

 

He is too young, may be too mentally fragile, not enough collegiate snaps, too much pressure, no way he can learn the playbook in time, no need to rush him, needs an extra month/year of footwork, cannot be effective without proper mechanics, cannot learn on the fly/will learn best on the sidelines, Jay won't call plays to his strengths.... what is your rationale. I may try and counter them.

 

I will give a reason that I would be concerned about. No bookend tackles/horrid pass pro, so a rookie QB gets physically destroyed, and is never the same. I have always thought it best to get your bookend tackle/OL sorted, and then get your QB.  I hate to waste a year of Trent. And Dwayne.

 

[Llevron]

1 hour ago, RandyHolt said:

I know many here want him to sit for X number of games without even a QB competition. 4 weeks. The entire year. In for week 6. Week 10 sounds good.

 

I am curious if anyone can rationalize the number of games they chose/give the specific reason you want him to sit no matter what we see in camp/preseason.  Not necessarily specific to Dwayne, for it is what we have learned from PAST QBs failing that is shaping opinions on when HE should start.  Some examples I suspect are a concern to some:

 

I would prefer to have him sit a year and watch/learn from the mistakes/good of the guys in front of him. A few reasons. First of all it worked for him before. He sat before and it worked. I understand hes a really heady QB. Hes more heady than athletic and I think the more he knows the more he can take advantage of the defense. And I dont think it hurts him. Second is that I dont want him to have early struggles and lose the fan base. That matters here. It may not to him though so thats not as big of a deal. 

 

1 hour ago, RandyHolt said:

I will give a reason that I would be concerned about. No bookend tackles/horrid pass pro, so a rookie QB gets physically destroyed, and is never the same. I have always thought it best to get your bookend tackle/OL sorted, and then get your QB.  I hate to waste a year of Trent. And Dwayne.

 

 

This is my other worry, but you covered it. 

 

For me, though, none of this matters if he shows he can do it. And I do trust Jay to know if he can or not. So if coach says go lets ****ing go! 

[RandyHolt]

21 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

I would prefer to have him sit a year and watch/learn from the mistakes/good of the guys in front of him. A few reasons. First of all it worked for him before. He sat before and it worked. I understand hes a really heady QB. Hes more heady than athletic and I think the more he knows the more he can take advantage of the defense. And I dont think it hurts him. Second is that I dont want him to have early struggles and lose the fan base. That matters here. It may not to him though so thats not as big of a deal. 

 

 

This is my other worry, but you covered it. 

 

For me, though, none of this matters if he shows he can do it. And I do trust Jay to know if he can or not. So if coach says go lets ****ing go! 

 

Hey thanks for sharing. That is one angle I didn't think of, the lose the fan base thing.  There is a LOT of pressure playing at home, even more so under our perennial "just win now!!!1!!" owner.  Can you imagine him drafted by philly and have a game 1 1st quarter INT.  It would rain beer bottles.

 

If he has never dealt with losing / boo birds, that is a bridge that will have to be crossed. Maybe the best thing about a year off decided in advance, is buying him a year to mature. No pressure at all, even if forced in everyone's expectation bar is lowered from the start. That buys him room to have mistakes and not see the stadium implode.

 

I would like to think Jay could keep expectations in check when it comes time for him to start. Instead of pumping his tires, remind everyone he will have mistakes and its a year to learn blah blah, which takes pressure off him.  Just keep saying it over and over, even if it's not true. Its popular around here.

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, RandyHolt said:

I know many here what him to sit for X number of games without even a QB competition. 4 weeks. The entire year. In for week 6. Week 10 sounds good.

 

I am curious if anyone can rationalize the number of games they chose, and also, what is the specific reason you want him to sit no matter what we see in camp/preseason.  Not necessarily specific to Dwayne, for it is what we have learned from PAST QBs failing that is shaping opinions on when HE should start.  Some examples I suspect are a concern to some:

 

He is too young, too mentally fragile, not enough collegiate snaps, too much pressure, no way he can learn the playbook in time, no need to rush him, needs an extra month/year of footwork, cannot be effective without proper mechanics, cannot learn on the fly/will learn best on the sidelines, Jay won't call plays to his strengths.... what is your primary concern. I may try and counter them.

 

I will give a reason that I would be concerned about. No bookend tackles/horrid pass pro, and the rookie QB gets physically destroyed, and is never the same. I have always thought it best to get your bookend tackle/OL sorted, and then get your QB.

 

 

I don't have any specific number of games he should sit. My main thing is that I only want him playing if Jay and the other coaches truly think he's ready to start. IIRC didn't Jay mention something about Haskins not being ready day 1 when asked about him before the draft? I just don't want the FO yokels pressuring the coaching staff to start the guy no matter what. I've bolded the things in the list that are issues to me when it comes to Haskins starting immediately.

 

One note: when I bolded "too much pressure" I mean actual pressure from a defense during a game, not mentally.

 

Another thing I'd add to the list (though you touched on it some at the end of your post) is having the brand new experience of not being on completely stacked team. In his one collegiate season he had one of the best OLs in the country and a stable full of 4.3 track star receivers playing against 4.7 CBs/S/LBs, most of whom are now looking for day jobs after graduating. 

[redskinss]

13 hours ago, volsmet said:

he was the least pressured QB this year & in HS they got the ball out quickly.

I'm not doubting your assessment because what you said is true but maybe he was the least pressured quarterback because he reads defenses so fast and has a lightning quick release. 

 

Those are two of his listed strengths. 

 

 

[RandyHolt]

5 minutes ago, redskinss said:

I'm not doubting your assessment because what you said is true but maybe he was the least pressured quarterback because he reads defenses so fast and has a lightning quick release. 

 

Those are two of his listed strengths.

Good point.  One way to sap QB pressure is a quick passing offense. They will never lay a hand on the QB, and at that point, may be well served to stop trying.  DL/OLB get frustrated fast, and short of going for batted balls, are completely neutralized.

Maybe Vol can chime in on what defenses usually did vs OSU.  Vs a high powered O, I think many pro teams would go bend don't break, and slow the scoring/game down. That starts with standard pressure up front.

[volsmet]

4 minutes ago, redskinss said:

I'm not doubting your assessment because what you said is true but maybe he was the least pressured quarterback because he reads defenses so fast and has a lightning quick release. 

 

Those are two of his listed strengths. 

 

 

 

Haskins pressure % is a statistic. Something else that helps is his incredibly low yards per target average.  

 

Sure Haskins does plenty well, but he’d not have that pressure % at Daniel Jones U.