The Skins Can't Win With These Coaches

[Thinking Skins]

7 hours ago, method man said:

If Dan decides to let Bruce and Jay go after this season, I’d say the most likely combo to replace them is Kyle and KOC.

 

We see how good this team is at attracting external candidates - not good. Honestly, I’d say that combo is worth a shot if it means that they can get a high end DC to coach with KOC

To me its all about getting a good DC in here. And if we can't get a big name who's known we should be able to make one. We can hear it in Jay's press conferences that he's not happy with Manusky's performance, but him Barry and Haslett were all chosen by Jay so what does that mean. 

 

We've been able to get guys who can do offense, going all the way back to Norv. We can get a gameplan that can get yards for the most part, and if our defense had been even legitimate in half of those years we're a respectable franchise (think Gibbs 2). Nothing major but at least what we can work with and not hang our heads going into work on Monday. 

 

I think this is what Dallas did with Garrett. He wasn't a good hire or anything but he's looking a lot better because he's got a good defensive coordinator. Same goes eith NO and Peyton. With Williams and whoever they have now they have a good team, without them he stunk. We need a DC and that's been a problem here since Petitbone left. And I don't want gregg Williams back, esp if all the stuff about him (STILL) trying to get players hurt (IN PRESEASON NONETHELESS) is true. But who are the young guys who come from disciples of blitzers. Is there a DC school similar to the Bill Walsh or Bill Parcells or most recently Andy Reid schools of offense and coaching? I just want an aggressive defense that can attack a QB. There was a stretch (was it under Barry or Manusky) where we were going after QBs. I think there were like 4 or 5 QBs who were hurt against us. That didn't say much because then we would play soft, off coverage against the backup and get beat silly, but at least it was some show of aggression. 

 

To an extent I can understand some of the problems with the secondary with no Dunbar, no Moreau and DRC ailing, but IMO thats why you blitz more not less. Are they so afraid of running QBs that they're afraid to hit them at all? 

[illone]

https://redskinswire.usatoday.com/2019/09/16/overreaction-monday-the-redskins-should-fire-dc-greg-manusky/

 

Hard to argue with this.

[RandyHolt]

The coaches will tell the guys on defense try harder, work harder, make a play. At the same time doing nothing differently.  Well, does yelling count?

 

We ain't done nothin' man and we're fresh out of ideas

 

The only thing that is holding the defense back is arrogance by our coaches.  Haslet flipped the proverbial light switch on and changed his D (still to this day wonder if it was at Shanahan's request) and our D became dominant and we had a nice finish to the year and made the playoffs.

[Voice_of_Reason]

I also just listened to Jay on rhe Redskins Talk Pod.

 

Summary for defensive issues: lots of new pieces, takes time to gel.

 

Ok. I buy that.  I ask you, why In the name of all that is holy are we going into week 3 taking about needing to gel when the NFL Gods and the CBA have provided 4 preseason games to work on things? 

 

As I’ve said, I don’t  really care about how you prepare the team, but it better work. Whatever they did didn’t work.  Again.  

 

Jay said we were vanilla against Dallas because we were missing Moreau and Dunny.  Weren’t the other DBs on the team (minus 1) in training camp?  I just can’t imagin Belichick being like, “damn, we lost 2 DBs, guess the rest don’t know what to do...” Hell no.  If you’re on that team you are EXPECTED to know what to do or you’re on the next plane out of there. 

 

This is the type of thing which drives me crazy.  This is year 6 of Jay’s offensive system, year 3 for Manusky, and even though we’ve had stability, players still don’t know where to go, so you can’t stunt, can’t blitz, etc?

 

The reason you want to have stability is so that players don’t have to learn new things.  Nothing here is new and we still have breakdowns.  

 

Im as big a supporter of getting Bruce out of here as anybody, but I just don’t feel as though the current roster is being even remotely maximized.  Jay even called out the coaching about 6 times in his interview.  I’ll give him credit, he’s caught on his coaching staff Is part of the problem.  Now he needs to fix it somehow.

 

He also said several times he thinks they have the talent to play with anybody. I’m not sure I agree, and I’m not sure he’s helping his cause by saying it.

 

I’d really like to see what this defense could do under a different DC.  I’d also like to see what the team could be if coached by somebody who knows better how to prepare the team. Jay just flat doesn’t know how to do it, or hold his coaches accountable for preparing the players, or else in week 2 of year 3 in the same defense Norman and Nicholson wouldn’t be staring at each other as a reviewer torched them.  

 

I will also say in listening to Jay, he seems like a really nice guy and he’s easy to root for. But at this point, he’s proven over and over he just isn’t a good HC.  He’s probably a great OC.  But there’s a huge difference in responsibility between HC and OC. Hiring a staff being chief among them...

[volsmet]

The talent comment is a not so subtle kiss of the front offices arse.

 

 

[desertbeagle85]

13 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I also just listened to Jay on rhe Redskins Talk Pod.

 

Summary for defensive issues: lots of new pieces, takes time to gel.

 

Ok. I buy that.  I ask you, why In the name of all that is holy are we going into week 3 taking about needing to gel when the NFL Gods and the CBA have provided 4 preseason games to work on things? 

 

As I’ve said, I don’t  really care about how you prepare the team, but it better work. Whatever they did didn’t work.  Again.  

 

Jay said we were vanilla against Dallas because we were missing Moreau and Dunny.  Weren’t the other DBs on the team (minus 1) in training camp?  I just can’t imagin Belichick being like, “damn, we lost 2 DBs, guess the rest don’t know what to do...” Hell no.  If you’re on that team you are EXPECTED to know what to do or you’re on the next plane out of there. 

 

This is the type of thing which drives me crazy.  This is year 6 of Jay’s offensive system, year 3 for Manusky, and even though we’ve had stability, players still don’t know where to go, so you can’t stunt, can’t blitz, etc?

 

The reason you want to have stability is so that players don’t have to learn new things.  Nothing here is new and we still have breakdowns.  

 

Im as big a supporter of getting Bruce out of here as anybody, but I just don’t feel as though the current roster is being even remotely maximized.  Jay even called out the coaching about 6 times in his interview.  I’ll give him credit, he’s caught on his coaching staff Is part of the problem.  Now he needs to fix it somehow.

 

He also said several times he thinks they have the talent to play with anybody. I’m not sure I agree, and I’m not sure he’s helping his cause by saying it.

 

I’d really like to see what this defense could do under a different DC.  I’d also like to see what the team could be if coached by somebody who knows better how to prepare the team. Jay just flat doesn’t know how to do it, or hold his coaches accountable for preparing the players, or else in week 2 of year 3 in the same defense Norman and Nicholson wouldn’t be staring at each other as a reviewer torched them.  

 

I will also say in listening to Jay, he seems like a really nice guy and he’s easy to root for. But at this point, he’s proven over and over he just isn’t a good HC.  He’s probably a great OC.  But there’s a huge difference in responsibility between HC and OC. Hiring a staff being chief among them...

 

 

Jay can say what ever he wants. When it comes down to it Jay and the whole coaching staff are gone. He has proven he can't compete with the Eagles or the Cowboys. The 2 teams we would have to beat out to make it to the playoffs. Every year he comes up with some excuse. I'm tired of it and I'm sure most of the fans in here are tired of it. He's a poor coach and he has proven that year after year. Only reason he's still the coach is, because he uses the injury excuse every year. 

[volsmet]

33 minutes ago, desertbeagle85 said:

 

 

Jay can say what ever he wants. When it comes down to it Jay and the whole coaching staff are gone. He has proven he can't compete with the Eagles or the Cowboys. The 2 teams we would have to beat out to make it to the playoffs. Every year he comes up with some excuse. I'm tired of it and I'm sure most of the fans in here are tired of it. He's a poor coach and he has proven that year after year. Only reason he's still the coach is, because he uses the injury excuse every year. 

 

The notion that a game plan would need significant altering, because Dunbar & Fabian were out, is hilarious. 

[desertbeagle85]

4 hours ago, volsmet said:

 

The notion that a game plan would need significant altering, because Dunbar & Fabian were out, is hilarious. 

 

Agreed and also sad at the same time. 

[FrFan]

Are they any cronyism leftovers from Tampa available ?

[FrFan]

 

[Alexa]

IMO Jay has checked out. I believe he knows that he's gone.  He's got 6 years of nice paychecks from Snyder plus another year coming after this one. By my count that's about 35 million. I really don't think that he isn't overly invested anymore. The disconnect between him and the front office is obvious. 

 

Manusky is terrible.  He has be let go because teams convert 3rd downs at a alarming rate.  

 

 

[Burgold]

1 hour ago, FrFan said:

 

Before Jay no one has ever wanted an East West runner, have they?

[RandyHolt]

54 minutes ago, Burgold said:

Before Jay no one has ever wanted an East West runner, have they?

 

Interesting to see Jay backpedaling. Maybe Jon told him to suck it up buttercup its not worth getting fired mid season.

 

Jay went rogue for a while there, probably cannot take it (Bruce) anymore mentally.  He needed to vent.  Jay is back!

 

North South it is.  Run run pass bend don't break (which is really code for don't blitz)... we got this. Oh wait... Monday night.... 

[Voice_of_Reason]

8 hours ago, volsmet said:

The talent comment is a not so subtle kiss of the front offices arse.

 

 

No it's not.  I never said they had "great" talent.  Or even as much talent as the Eagles or the Cowboys.  They don't.  

 

But what talent they do have is not being maximized. Either in preparation for the season or in games.  

 

As I have said 1000 times, multiple things can be true at the same time:

 

1. The FO is not good at roster management

2. The coaching staff does not make best use of the talent given to them.

 

Neither are mutually exclusive.  I want a better FO with better roster management and better players.

 

I've also said 1000 times that all of this starts with Dan, and then works it's way to Bruce, and then to the coaching.  It's entirely possible that if Bruce picks the next coach, it's either the same or worse because that's the kind of person he wants to hire.  Ideally, Bruce is gone, and somebody else is doing the picking.  

 

But this thread is not about Bruce, or even the next coaches.  It's about the current coaches on the team.  

 

I ALSO want better coaching to maximize the talent on the team.

 

Call me greedy.  I want both.  

[Skinsinparadise]

Keim said today Jay won't have the power to fire Manusky, Bruce has to approve it too.  My question on that is multiple times beat guys have said Bruce hates having dead money on the books for coaches.  So will see.

 

As for the point below, there might be something to it.  I doubt Jay overtly wants to be canned.  Both Sheehan and Russell said in the off season that they heard Jay has had it working with the FO and has a WTF attitude this season where he has nothing to lose and doesn't care that much if he loses his job. 

 

 

 

 

[volsmet]

1 minute ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

No it's not.  I never said they had "great" talent.  Or even as much talent as the Eagles or the Cowboys.  They don't.  

 

 

 

8 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I also just listened to Jay on rhe Redskins Talk Pod.

 

He also said several times he thinks they have the talent to play with anybody.

 

8 hours ago, volsmet said:

The talent comment is a not so subtle kiss of the front offices arse.

 

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

8 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I also just listened to Jay on rhe Redskins Talk Pod.

 

Summary for defensive issues: lots of new pieces, takes time to gel.

 

Ok. I buy that.  I ask you, why In the name of all that is holy are we going into week 3 taking about needing to gel when the NFL Gods and the CBA have provided 4 preseason games to work on things? 

 

As I’ve said, I don’t  really care about how you prepare the team, but it better work. Whatever they did didn’t work.  Again.  

 

Jay said we were vanilla against Dallas because we were missing Moreau and Dunny.  Weren’t the other DBs on the team (minus 1) in training camp?  I just can’t imagin Belichick being like, “damn, we lost 2 DBs, guess the rest don’t know what to do...” Hell no.  If you’re on that team you are EXPECTED to know what to do or you’re on the next plane out of there. 

 

 

If people are upset at the defense's performance, I get that.  I said I was done with Manusky on this very thread BEFORE Sunday's game.

 

But, I don't expect Jay to just publicly throw his assistant coach under the bus in an interview.  Jay would have to be a pretty mean spirited dude to do that.  It's not how he typically rolls.  Someone mentioned on a thread they saw Jay reaming out Manusky on the bench last Sunday.  When Barry was in his last year here, I saw Jay ream out Barry on the bench ironically against the same opponent, Dallas.  Multiple reporters have said they were privately told that Jay is very frustrated with the defensive's performance and Manusky is on thin ice.

 

Jay has slipped in some shots in his post game pressers that insinuate that the defense has let the team down and implied some of that is on the coaching.  Heck some beat guys even talked about whether Jay was too harsh about it and should have laid off.

 

In the same Finlay interview you cite, Jay talked about the lack of pass rush.  do you expect him to say JP heck yeah its because Manusky runs a vanilla scheme and has no reason to even if that's how he feels?  

 

So yeah my point is in a comfortable setting, Jay will publicly find excuses to help Manusky to be nice.  Many coaches would do the same.  But that action considering all the other noise out there IMO likely means squat. 

 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

9 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Keim said today Jay won't have the power to fire Manusky, Bruce has to approve it too.  My question on that is multiple times beat guys have said Bruce hates having dead money on the books for coaches.  So will see.

If this is true, then Jay needs to resign in protest.  If he doesn’t have control of his staff and Bruce is not willing to make a change Jay thinks is necessary, then Jay is being set up to lose.  That’s not fair to Jay at all.  

 

The way way I see it, if this is true, and Jay has decided he needs a change, he can do 3 things:

 

1. Resign in protest and let everybody know why.  

2. Play the good soldier. Lose a lot of games.  Get fired and collect your money.

3. Just come out and say “look, I think we need to make some staff changes in roles and responsibilities but that’s a FO decision. So we’re doing the best we can.”  Don’t call anybody out, don’t be specific, but make it clear you want to make changes and you can’t.

 

personally, given the amount of money Jay has made, I think he could go with #1 and be happier, and get an OC or HC opportunity next year.  

 

However he could also pull off number 3. If Bruce goes balistic and fires Jay, he gets his money.  And folks around the league probably buy his story and his reputation is intact.

[The Hangman- C_Hanburger]

17 hours ago, volsmet said:

 

The notion that a game plan would need significant altering, because Dunbar & Fabian were out, is hilarious. 

Ya..THAT is BS..if you have a suspect secondary..you PRESSURE!! Don't let the QB settle and pick them apart...playing soft zones is the most stupid game plan for that that I can imagine. I don't understand this statement at all...it proves to me they are clueless and probably as predictable as the sun coming up. Too many "perfect O Calls" for what the D runs...Dak's run for one..no containment

[Skinsinparadise]

@Voice_of_ReasonI don't know though if Jay wants to fire Manusky.  All I have on that front is beat guys saying Jay is frustrated by the defensive and that includes the coaching.  And someone on the game thread mentioned Jay reaming Manusky out on the sideline.    

 

As I've said, its hard for me to get a read on the Jay-Manusky dynamic.  There are definitely mixed messages on it.   But one common message that multiple reporters have said is that Bruce not Jay has final say if Manusky goes.  I gather at best Jay makes the recommendation but Bruce is the final yes or no. 

 

I've heard enough that gives me the impression that Jay is gone after this season unless they have a surprisingly good year.   Also some people who cover the team have indicated that Jay is feistier than usual behind the scenes and the powers that be likely don't like that.  So I don't think Jay survives an if and but type of season.  But I do think Bruce survives it. 

 

So it paints a picture to me that it could get ugly. I suspect they might win the next 2 games and if so that will quiet things down temporarily.    Then they win 3 of the next 4.  Then it starts going south some.  I still think it ends around 7-9, 8-8ish.  

 

But if they lose to the Bears, I think it can get uglier.  It might have a demoralizing effect that could lead to a loss in NY.  I don't think it goes down that way but if the dominos fall that way and they go 0-5, I think it could get crazy fast.  I suspect though they bounce back and we are back on track to a mediocre albeit not good season.  Bruce convinces Dan that Jay is the issue and O'Connell is the next McVay and all will be great in 2020 with O'Connell and Haskins.  That's my prediction for the moment. 

 

 

Just caught this, can you imagine?  I honestly can't imagine it.  But if that happened, wow.  And sadly I'd be there to witness it, too. 

 

 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

@Skinsinparadise I said “if” he wants to fire Greg but Bruce stops him.  Clearly he needs to get their on his own.

 

 

[Stadium-Armory]

I don't hate Jay's short passing game ball control offense. You can win that way. My issue with Jay is that his teams lack fight. We need a mentality change more than an X's and O's change.  Problem is, "winning", as a mentality, starts above Jay.

 

 

[DWinzit]

21 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Keim said today Jay won't have the power to fire Manusky, Bruce has to approve it too.  My question on that is multiple times beat guys have said Bruce hates having dead money on the books for coaches.  So will see.

 

As for the point below, there might be something to it.  I doubt Jay overtly wants to be canned.  Both Sheehan and Russell said in the off season that they heard Jay has had it working with the FO and has a WTF attitude this season where he has nothing to lose and doesn't care that much if he loses his job. 

 

Bruce hates having dead money on the books for coaches...at this point having Manusky out there is feeling like dead coaching money. 

Great guy and probably a really good positions coach, not a DC.

My goodness I hope to see some blitz and a stunts this week

 

If Jay does have a WTF attitude he should be trying to win at all costs both offensively and defensively. I still question if he ever looks at the defensive side.

If Jay gives up on trying the players will give up on them

 

[RandyHolt]

Why is the half back option so frowned upon?

 

I don't give a rats ass what NFL coaches say, its not terribly difficult to throw a football. Even if you aren't a former QB in high school.

 

That is all.

 

Is Jay fresh out of ideas after 2 weeks?

 

 

[SemperFi Skins]

i live in south Florida and I can tell you that the talk of the town from Dolphins fans is it's a three -way race for the #1 overall pick between Dolphins, Redskins, and Giants... the fans I spoke to specifically said they are nervous they'll win against us and end up shopping their many picks to get that #1 overall...

 

Another common theme from Dolphins fans is they don't want Tua and instead prefer to tank next season as well for Trevor Lawrence.. Their thought is ride with Rosen and put the pieces in place for TL in 2021.