2020 Comprehensive Draft Thread

[Going Commando]

21 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I like Trautman much more than that.  But to each their own.  I've watched probably now almost 50 receivers and tight ends combined and fairly closely.  And granted it's to my amateur eyes, Trautman was the most consistent blocker I've watched this year.    There are others I've liked who have moments where they looked really good and then they had some misses and and I just let it go because I've seen enough good.  With Trautman I rarely had to forgive plays.  He locks into his blocks well and rarely misses his man. 

 

He is a try hard type stylistically  But a dude who is over 250 pounds yet runs a 3 cone better than every TE and every receiver aside from one WR -- and ran a 1.57 10 (96 percentile), is plenty of an athlete with enough explosion.    Do I find him explosive?  Not really.  But he's plenty explosive enough especially for a dude his size.

 

I do agree there is always pause about dudes that played against inferior competition.  But at the same time plenty get infatuated with small school prospects especially in this draft.  And I can't think of any of those small school players with PFF grades just about across the board like Trautman.  Great scores as a receiver and blocker.   

 

I think his blocking is pretty good but I don't think he's a dominant blocker, and I think he massively benefits from blocking DEs and LBs who are much smaller than him, who aren't fast, and who don't fight back that hard.  I don't think he's got that air of physical superiority and hype aggression that the guys who end up being stars in the NFL have when coming from the FCS.  And I think he sees the field through a straw and doesn't have a great football IQ and that lack of feel for the relevant play developments around him shows up as both a blocker and a receiver.  I don't think his receiving is as good as it's being billed, which is the primary reason I seem to be a lot lower on him than the consensus.  A ton of his production is coming off running through huge seams in underneath zones where he's not getting covered.  His routes look rudimentary and rigid and I think his balance through contact is poor and that it is not difficult to divert his path.  But the primary issue is I just don't think he's got a great feel for coverage and how to adjust to beat it.  I see him frequently running himself directly into off and zone coverage and then kind of conceding the rep.  It's a really big contrast in style to a highly instinctive route runner and receiver like Harrison Bryant.

 

I think the lack of explosion is going to show up in an inability to uncover against man in the NFL and an inability to shake an NFL press.  I also think he's not going to have a vertical dynamic in his game.  IMO he is a big slow lumberer who will probably settle in as a #2 if he's on a good team.  I think he gets relegated to being an in-line Y whose passing game value will be as a tertiary target working zone gaps in the middle and getting red zone work.  I think he has low upside.

 

You're right that draftniks frequently fall in love with small school guys, but I'm not usually one to hype up small school guys.  They have a really low success rate in the NFL, far lower than FBS players and power 5 guys in particular.  I'm a fan of a school that plays in what is usually the best and most competitive FCS conference in the CAA, and the difference between that type of football and what you see in the FBS is huge.  215 pound linebackers commonplace.  A 4.6 40 being breakway speed.  Scheme simplicity and an inability to cover the whole field.  But more than anything, the level of aggressiveness is really different, and really uneven.  They don't have many real high end tone setters at the FCS level and the competitive culture is different.  Games have a "collegial" atmosphere where you see a lot of stuff like in Trautman's film where guys concede the rep if they lose early in it.

[Going Commando]

22 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I like Harrison Bryant better than most but not as much as my top 4 TEs.  He'd be in the next group for me.   And within that next group, I'd probably go Hopkins by a hair over him.  Bryant didn't face the stiffest competition either.   He's a good H back type IMO, decent hands, good separating.   He's a willing blocker, and I know Zierlein who seems to be his biggest fan (from what I recall you respect Zierlein) bills him as a really good blocker, he compares him to Kittle.   I personally don't see him being a good blocker in the NFL.  I think Zierlein is off about Harrison.  But I am relatively high on Harrison especially if he's in the 5th round range than most. Like Hopkins, he can stretch the field, good YAC dude. 

 

Actually the way you describe Trautman is the way I see Harrison, instead.   He's a dude who isn't the best athlete, small wing span, small hands, not really fast or agile but he's a decent route runner especially from the slot and a try hard blocker yet he isn't that physical.

 

I see Bryant very differently from Trautman.  Trautman is defined by his brawny size.  He's a jump ball winner and a big lumberer who wants to stand you up and tangle with you when he's blocking.  He moves reasonably well given big he is, but he's still rigid and slow.  And I think the difference in the level of football IQ is huge between them.  Bryant is a wiry athlete who is built more like a big receiver and he moves that way.  I think he's very instinctive and I think he's a much better route runner than you do.  He was the best route runner of the TEs I watched this year.  You're right that he's smaller than the ideal at the position, and lacks desired length, but he wins with football IQ, quickness, and aggressiveness.

 

To me, having Bryant as the top TE in the class is the least controversial take.  He won the Mackey award and was really good this season.  Most people seem to have Kmet as the top guy and that is much more controversial IMO.  He's never even been a starter for a full season.  I think people are going really far out on a limb projecting him based off his physical tools and assuming he has a ton of untapped upside.  But he's not exactly OJ Howard--he's a good athlete rather than a great one.  For how raw he is and how much work that needs to be done to get him to a level where he could start, he's not a flashy enough athlete to justify that risk on day 2.  Especially in a weird offseason that is really going to punish the guys who are raw.  I think a practice squad rookie season is a real possibility for him unless he gets drafted so high that his status protects him.

 

I think Zierlein compared Bryant to Kittle because of the similar wiry build.  Similar instinctive and aggressive style of play.  But Kittle is a far better athlete than him and has much more of a broad-shouldered build and better length.  Bryant looks like a tall WR to me, and I would say Bryant more closely resembles somebody like Zach Ertz as a best case scenario comp.  He's not as strong or as good as Ertz was coming out, but it's closer than Kittle.  I don't get why people don't like the kid given how productive he was and how solid his film is, especially in a weak TE class.  I know you're a PFF fan like me, he got an awesome grade from them this year, so he truly knows how to play.  But if the generally low regard for him means we can get him in the fifth round or with that fourth round comp pick, then I'm not complaining.  That's tremendous value.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I think his blocking is pretty good but I don't think he's a dominant blocker, and I think he massively benefits from blocking DEs and LBs who are much smaller than him, who aren't fast, and who don't fight back that hard.  I don't think he's got that air of physical superiority and hype aggression that the guys who end up being stars in the NFL have when coming from the FCS. 

 

Disagree with this part, I think he's got plenty of physical superiority and hype aggression.   In my view, it's not even something that needs defending, it's somewhat the hallmark of his game IMO.  He tosses guys to the ground, he has a mean streak as to his blocking, heck sometimes when he gets pressed running a route he will just literally just throw the guy off him.

 

I attached two stills both of him throwing guys to the ground (and they aren't hard to find) the 2nd one is hard to see but that's a dude he continued to block about 4 seconds after the play with blown dead and then threw him to the ground.  Not only in my view does he have hype aggression but is the most aggressive blocker period among the TEs and receivers.  Mims is fun to watch, too, he has a mean streak as a blocker among receivers.

 

As a pass catcher, like most TEs, seems routes, crossers, short outs.  As you mentioned good red zone threat.  He has his moments as to YAC but a bit inconsistent.   Even though his speed is decent for his size, he doesn't have a lot of wiggle.  But he has good hands.  If I am throwing a ball in the air with a defender draped on a TE, Trautman would be the guy among the others I watched, that I'd bet on pulling that ball.

 

As for his technique as a blocker, that's hard for me to see one way or another on the Youtube clips.  But among the guys I watched he locks into blocks better than everyone else and rarely misses a block.  He's a smart dude.  Electrical engineer.  Ex-Qb.  He talks about refining his technique both as to blocking and running routes.  Supposedly really high intangibles and fun character-locker room guy.

 

OK Trautman you owe me some dough for this PR push. 😀   For me I doubt he'd will be my top desire in the third round.  But if they take him, I'd get it.  If you want to be a big physical team that beats up on the opponent.  IMO Trautman would be the guy at TE.  My 2nd favorite on that count at TE, as to blocking, would be Asiasi.  Asiasi IMO is a good blocker but lacks Trautman's mean streak-aggressiveness. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[volsmet]

@stevemcqueen1 is a W&M fan, I knew it.

 

 

[HTTRDynasty]

 

[volsmet]

15 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

Why?

Chiefs.

 

[KDawg]

I wouldn’t be shocked if Ruggs was the first receiver drafted. 
 

But I’d be disappointed. 
 

How you take him over Lamb or Jeudy is a mystery to me.

[Koolblue13]

I guess I'll never know.

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I see Bryant very differently from Trautman.  Trautman is defined by his brawny size.  He's a jump ball winner and a big lumberer who wants to stand you up and tangle with you when he's blocking.  He moves reasonably well given big he is, but he's still rigid and slow.  And I think the difference in the level of football IQ is huge between them.  Bryant is a wiry athlete who is built more like a big receiver and he moves that way.  I think he's very instinctive and I think he's a much better route runner than you do.  He was the best route runner of the TEs I watched this year.  You're right that he's smaller than the ideal at the position, and lacks desired length, but he wins with football IQ, quickness, and aggressiveness.

 

To me, having Bryant as the top TE in the class is the least controversial take.  He won the Mackey award and was really good this season.  Most people seem to have Kmet as the top guy and that is much more controversial IMO.  He's never even been a starter for a full season.  I think people are going really far out on a limb projecting him based off his physical tools and assuming he has a ton of untapped upside.  But he's not exactly OJ Howard--he's a good athlete rather than a great one.  For how raw he is and how much work that needs to be done to get him to a level where he could start, he's not a flashy enough athlete to justify that risk on day 2.  Especially in a weird offseason that is really going to punish the guys who are raw.  I think a practice squad rookie season is a real possibility for him unless he gets drafted so high that his status protects him.

 

I think Zierlein compared Bryant to Kittle because of the similar wiry build.  Similar instinctive and aggressive style of play.  But Kittle is a far better athlete than him and has much more of a broad-shouldered build and better length.  Bryant looks like a tall WR to me, and I would say Bryant more closely resembles somebody like Zach Ertz as a best case scenario comp.  He's not as strong or as good as Ertz was coming out, but it's closer than Kittle.  I don't get why people don't like the kid given how productive he was and how solid his film is, especially in a weak TE class.  I know you're a PFF fan like me, he got an awesome grade from them this year, so he truly knows how to play.  But if the generally low regard for him means we can get him in the fifth round or with that fourth round comp pick, then I'm not complaining.  That's tremendous value.

 

I like Harrison Bryant.  I've probably pushed him more than anyone on this thread as for volume of posts.  I didn't knock Harrison Bryan's route running.  I did a whole write up on him months ago and my overall take was positive.  IMO as pure run routing-pass catchers the three best in this class are:  Hunter Bryant, Harrison Bryant and Brycen Hopkins.  And all three are close in my view in ability so I have no quarrel with anyone who picks one over the other.

 

There are 3 TE's that I liked pre-combine who had combines that made me pause:  Harrison Bryant among those three.  The other two would be Hunter Bryant and Pickney.  Judging by combine numbers, Harrison isn't a good athlete anyway you cut it, speed, agility, strength.  Overall he tested in the 18th percentile.  Trautman beat him in every category and every measure but one and by a good margin in most categories.  But I do agree that he looks like he runs faster than what he was timed at, and looks more like a receiver than most TE's in this class.

 

Harrison is part of the reason why I actually like this TE class if we are talking purely 2nd-3rd tier type talent which in my view many fit in this category.  It's not a top heavy class and that's an understatement.  But oddly in my view for a class that lacks stars it has more C plus, B type of players than the normal class.  So I actually like a lot the TE's in this class from the context of the 4-7th round.   It's nowhere near WR, CB, and O line.  But I think its in the next group purely from a depth standpoint not top end talent. 

 

As for who I deem the top 10 TE's.  And it can change depending on my mood because they are so bunched together IMO. 

 

1. Trautman (I am slightly higher on him than the average draft geek but mostly in line with them)

 

2. Kmet  (I am slightly lower on him than most draft geek types but I am a sucker for a 260 pound TE who wants to get better at blocking and who has decent athletic #'s)

 

3.  Asiasi (I am much higher on him than the average draft geek.  He's so well rounded IMO, does everything well but nothing great)

 

4.  Albert O (I am slightly lower on him than the typical draft geek but close enough to about the same.  He's a beast athletically for his size, might have the most upside of any TE but worry that he has some boom-bust-underachiever in him)

 

5.  Brycen Hopkins (I notice draft geeks are all over the map on him, so I guess I'd be higher on him than most, stretches the field vertically, can separate, but more an H back type, willing blocker but not a good blocker.)

 

6.  Harrison Bryant (draft geeks all over the map about him too -- everything I said about Hopkins applies to Harrison but IMO Hopkins comes off the line of scrimmage faster, Harrison is the better blocker)

 

7. Hunter Bryant (I am lower on him than most but I don't mind him.  I think he's the best pass catching TE of the group but undersized and I don't like him bulking up to 250, he took away his speed that way)

 

8.  Deguara:  (I am higher on him than most.   Also H back type, he reminds me of a poor man's Cooley when I watch him.  Decent pass catcher but not as good as some of the others I've already mentioned.  but for a dude his size, he's strong and a decent blocker.

 

9.  Breeland.  (your guy from what i recall.  I am slightly higher on him than most.  I don't like him as a blocker.    His injuries concern me.  But he has really good hands. if you can get how lower in the draft, why not?)

 

10.  A bunch of guys are tied with me:  Sullivan, Keene, Moss, Pickney, O'Grady.    

 

 

PFF likes Harrison as you mentioned.  And again so do I.  They rank him as a 4th rounder, sounds about right to me.  Here is their TE rankings. 

 

 

[Going Commando]

1 hour ago, volsmet said:

@stevemcqueen1 is a W&M fan, I knew it.

 

 

 

Other side of the oldest rivalry in the South.  I'm a Richmond alum.  If I were doing it over again, I'd go to W&M because Williamsburg is one of my favorite places.

[Skinsinparadise]

18 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Other side of the oldest rivalry in the South.  I'm a Richmond alum.  If I were doing it over again, I'd go to W&M because Williamsburg is one of my favorite places.

 

I love both places myself, have done both cities multiple times as part of attending Redskins camp.   I was an American history major so from that angle alone both for me are super cool.

 

 

Man I hope he doesn't go in the first round.  If I had to pick one guy as my favorite among those who I often see fall to the early third its Wilson.

 

 

 

[JamesMadisonSkins]

19 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Other side of the oldest rivalry in the South.  I'm a Richmond alum.  If I were doing it over again, I'd go to W&M because Williamsburg is one of my favorite places.

 

Life was more fun with Richmond and W&M didn't get constantly stomped by JMU and the rivalries were more like 80's Skins Boys and less like 00's Skins Boys

 

#GODUKES

[Skinsinparadise]

The thing about Wilson is he's a freak for his size.  And a chunk of the 2nd tier OT types are undersized either weight wise or arm length but not Wilson.  Wilson has it all on that front.  He can lose a few pounds but he has the size and arm length.  Plays with a mean streak.  He's far from perfect, IMO he doesn't have quick feet -- vulnerable to speed rushers.  But he has plenty to work with.  If he slips to the third I'd take him without skipping a beat.   

 

I'd take Niang over him but I think no shot Niang falls to the third. 

 

 

 

[HTTRDynasty]

 

[volsmet]

50 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Other side of the oldest rivalry in the South.  I'm a Richmond alum.  

 

35 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I love both places myself, have done both cities multiple times as part of attending Redskins camp.   I was an American history major so from that angle alone both for me are super cool.

 

 

Man I hope he doesn't go in the first round.  If I had to pick one guy as my favorite among those who I often see fall to the early third its Wilson.

 

 

 

Richmond v W&M we need to go to the next one & party. My uncle is calling games for W&M now, so less pressure on him and more fun to be had. 
 

Richmond is one of the more underrated academic universities in the country - imo.

[volsmet]

*
Underrated in terms of perception outside of the area. When I talk to people about the rivalry they only associate W&M with any academic prestige. 

[Skinsinparadise]

I agree this likely rules out Tua.  I've heard multiple times that because Tua hasn't been able to do personal visits, to showcase how far he's come and the medicals, it's hurt his stock.  Same reason why supposedly the Dolphins won't trade the moon for him. 

 

 

 

[UK Skins]

Too many Bryants! Reminds me of my Madden Franchise, I drafted two TEs called Cole, could never tell them apart. Nightmare. But perhaps we should just draft both Bryants 😃

[Est.1974]

43 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I agree this likely rules out Tua.  I've heard multiple times that because Tua hasn't been able to do personal visits, to showcase how far he's come and the medicals, it's hurt his stock.  Same reason why supposedly the Dolphins won't trade the moon for him. 

 

 

 

Live on day 3 when we are picking his old associate KJ Hill, plus a TE, to give him a some more weapons. Oh and to comment on the Young selection perhaps...

[DWinzit]

On 4/5/2020 at 2:48 PM, KDawg said:

 

He's phenomenal. He plays downhill, instinctually and is pretty good in coverage. He has a quick trigger and he's quick to the POA. He's very disciplined in pursuit and rarely over pursues.  He's ****ing smart. 

 

Thing I see with him is that he's a zone drop backer and not a man coverage guy. But he's probably a 2-down MIKE in the NFL as well. He's not terribly fast sideline to sideline but his instincts make up for that. 

 

He's my current "want" in the third if he's there. Him, Davis-Gaither and Dugger are all atop my third round draft choice leaderboard. Not sure they'll all be there, though. 

So Wilson is #1 for you in this category? It's almost like a Gaither breakup haha. Really nice player with incredible instincts, but you say as others I've read - 2 down player. It's a little concerning since our interior LB's have been slow over the years like Bostic. I feel he could be a true 3 down player due to his instincts. If he were a little faster he'd be looking at the bottom of the first round.

[DWinzit]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

3.  Asiasi (I am much higher on him than the average draft geek.  He's so well rounded IMO, does everything well but nothing great)

 

8.  Deguara:  (I am higher on him than most.   Also H back type, he reminds me of a poor man's Cooley when I watch him.  Decent pass catcher but not as good as some of the others I've already mentioned.  but for a dude his size, he's strong and a decent blocker.

I they are really looking for an all around TE in the later rounds to contribute and possibly turn into a starter, I am with you on being higher on these guys than others.

I would consider Asiasi in the 4th. Deguara can be a HB/TE/FB combo and perhaps worthy of a 5th or 6th depending on their grades. These two have really grown on me.

[JamesMadisonSkins]

I'm intrigued by Dalton Keane. Mainly because he's a likely 5th or later round pick but there's talk about him being a complete TE. Saw another article yesterday (will try to find the link) that compared him to George Kittle.

[Est.1974]

Fully virtual draft with key personnel located at their own homes.....
 

Firstly, like the move and the intention, keep people safe, keep the draft on.

 

Secondly, that is potentially going to be occasionally chaotic right, for teams looking to move and trade about. I know communication lines are easy to maintain with modern IT, and teams prep their moves in advance of the draft, but you have to think when the pressure is on and the clock in ticking, that must put the squeeze on a little bit more somewhat.

 

Thats going to create the odd issue or two I’d say. Or a more limited amount of trading being done. 

 

 

[Mr. Sinister]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I agree this likely rules out Tua.  I've heard multiple times that because Tua hasn't been able to do personal visits, to showcase how far he's come and the medicals, it's hurt his stock.  Same reason why supposedly the Dolphins won't trade the moon for him. 

 

 

 

 

I dunno. If the Bengals do a swerve and nab Young and we take Burrow, that reaction vid of Haskins will be one for the ages.

[volsmet]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I agree this likely rules out Tua.  I've heard multiple times that because Tua hasn't been able to do personal visits, to showcase how far he's come and the medicals, it's hurt his stock.  Same reason why supposedly the Dolphins won't trade the moon for him.