2020 Comprehensive Draft Thread

[KDawg]

6 minutes ago, volsmet said:

Simmons offers versatility, but Young limits responsibilities in those around him. As you know, obviously. 
 

Simmons is the guy I enjoy watching most, but if either Chase Young or Isaiah Simmons are going to end up on a team I play twice, I’d prefer that player be Simmons.  

 

It's all about positional value at the point we're at in the draft. Edge > OLB in almost every case.

 

But man, Simmons is so good. Not to say Young isn't. But Simmons stands out as an OLB to me more than Young stands out as a DE to me. I don't think Young is a better prospect than either Bosa, personally. Maybe slightly. But I don't think he's as head and shoulders better as many others seem to. But if the Bosa's are his baseline... Jesus. Dude is an animal. 

 

It's kinda like we just saw a DE prospect like Young in Bosa. But we haven't seen an outside linebacker prospect like Simmons since... who? Derwin James who plays safety? Not sure that's a fair comp considering I see Simmons being an OLB more than a safety, where I saw James as a safety more than a LB.

 

To that end, I'd say Simmons is actually more generational at his position than Young is at his.

 

But then we get back to Edge > OLB.

 

Tug of war in my head.

 

Especially because I like both dudes.

[volsmet]

*

How many opportunities do you get to grab a special QB? The few who are truly special give you a chance every year - there’s nothing else like it in sports.   Give me a $2 Matt Moore until I can draft a Tua or Watson or Lawrence. 
 

My guy @Anselmheifer would understand the medical concerns far better than I, and we should have a bit of clarity by draft day, but it’s a rare opportunity to be sitting at #2 looking at a QB every nfl scout was salivating over just a few months ago. 

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, volsmet said:

*

How many opportunities do you get to grab a special QB? The few who are truly special give you a chance every year - there’s nothing else like it in sports.   Give me a $2 Matt Moore until I can draft a Tua or Watson or Lawrence. 
 

My guy @Anselmheifer would understand the medical concerns far better than I, and we should have a bit of clarity by draft day, but it’s a rare opportunity to be sitting at #2 looking at a QB every nfl scout was salivating over just a few months ago. 

 

I'm not opposed to a QB at 2, either. And I've stated as such RE: Burrow. 

 

But it would be Burrow for me, not Tua. I have a vendetta against us trusting injury prone/significantly injured players.

[skinny21]

6 hours ago, -JB- said:

What if the Bengals draft Chase Young #1 & the Skins are sitting there with teams looking to trade up for Burrow and they move down a few spots, get a bunch of picks, & draft Tua....

 

 

2 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

That would be ludicrous. Triple facepalm ludicrous. We have a young unproven QB in Haskins who showed some promise and very good improvement at the end of the season and we're going to draft another young QB who is currently rehabbing from a really bad injury and nobody knows if he'll ever be the same guy on the field? With all of the other holes we have? Yeah I don't see it. I think Rivera will want vets to challenge Haskins; I don't think he's looking to draft a QB. 

I’ve been on Haskins side this whole time.  Looking forward to seeing him develop and I think he has a chance to be a good qb for us.  
So I was very surprised that I’d actually be open to the idea of taking Tua... if it came with a trade back and multiple extra picks.  We’d miss out on a top DE/LB, but could address other problem areas.  This is especially attractive if Trent and Scherff walk and we need oline.  I get why people would hate the move though.  

32 minutes ago, volsmet said:

Depth at the positions may be why they fall a bit, the classes are loaded. Young, Simmons & Okudah are far more unique talents in this class, so they should go earlier. 

One of the reasons I like Montez Sweat so much is the fact that Chuck Smith, former NFL DE who trains a lot of these young guys, says Sweat shows the fluidity necessary to best guys with moves like those — he just hasn’t played the game as long as some others & he was asked to play a fairly bland role at MSU. His arsenal is nonexistent today.

 

Thanks for that info on Sweat.  Good to hear/read.  Happy to have you back my man!!

25 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Isaiah Simmons, the more I watch of him and Young, the more I prefer him.

 

I mean, I'm still not to the point where I think you pass on Young #2 if he's there. Edge is such an important position to get right and Young is so talented. I'm not sure I ever get to the point I am "okay" with passing on Young.

 

But I think I am to the point that Simmons passed Young on "my" board. (Which, LKB, is not an actual board. You got me, man.)

 

But I guess he hasn't if I wouldn't pass on Young for him. 

 

I just have such a hard time saying to pass on Young if he's in your lap. I like Simmons better, though. His versatility is tremendous.

First of all, I’ve said moving back was only a real consideration for me if we could still land Simmons (until the idea of trading back and landing Tua was mentioned).  Unless it’s a major haul where we could address multiple positions - @stevemcqueen1 has talked about this in terms of really bolstering the roster.  Simmons is a special player and could have a huge impact.  He also maybe addresses a bigger position of weakness for us.  Not sure if Del Rio is creative enough to maximize his talent though...

Second, I think it’s still a big board even if it’s in your head only...

 

[volsmet]

3 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

It's all about positional value at the point we're at in the draft. Edge > OLB in almost every case.

 

But man, Simmons is so good. Not to say Young isn't. But Simmons stands out as an OLB to me more than Young stands out as a DE to me. I don't think Young is a better prospect than either Bosa, personally. Maybe slightly. But I don't think he's as head and shoulders better as many others seem to. But if the Bosa's are his baseline... Jesus. Dude is an animal. 

 

It's kinda like we just saw a DE prospect like Young in Bosa. But we haven't seen an outside linebacker prospect like Simmons since... who? Derwin James who plays safety? Not sure that's a fair comp considering I see Simmons being an OLB more than a safety, where I saw James as a safety more than a LB.

I didn’t watch the Bosa brothers particularly closely, but several guys who coached Nick Bosa & Chase Young say there is a fairly significant difference between the two. 
 

Simmons will probably play at 240 while Derwin is about 215 I believe. If only we had moved Trent & given ourselves an outside shot at landing both prospects.... we could have taken over the world. 

 

4 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

I'm not opposed to a QB at 2, either. And I've stated as such RE: Burrow. 

 

But it would be Burrow for me, not Tua. I have a vendetta against us trusting injury prone/significantly injured players.

A well founded vendetta. Tua doesn’t get hit often & the hits he does take don’t seem like that kind of hits that would lead to such significant injuries. 🤔

[volsmet]

7 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

 

Not sure if Del Rio is creative enough to maximize his talent though...

 

A pleasure to be back in the company of my friend Skinny. 🙌

 

I haven’t looked over the reactions to Del Rio being hired, but it was an underwhelming move to me. 

[KDawg]

@volsmet

 

As someone who hasn’t coached them...

 

I think Nick and Joey were very different from one another. Nick is more power, with a little burst. Joey is more burst with a little power. Comparatively, I think Young is closer to a similar prospect as Joey as far as style. 
 

If you put a gun to my head and told me to apply a totally arbitrary grade that means nothing but only used to rank the three of them as prospects:

 

1. Chase Young - 95

2. Nick Bosa - 94.5

3. Joey Bosa - 93

[volsmet]

19 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

1. Chase Young - 95

2. Nick Bosa - 94.5

3. Joey Bosa - 93

Simmons plays only slightly below the weight that T.J. Watt & Von Miller did, I imagine he’d have been an all American pass rusher if that’s what he was asked to do exclusively. 
 

 

 

 

[KDawg]

I don't consider Watt or Miller to actually be OLBs, though.

 

But I think that makes my point more saliently. Simmons can rush, yes, but he's more of a LB than Von Miller, TJ Watt, etc.

 

I can't name an actual OLB that can cover, rush and tackle anywhere near as talented as Simmons. And that's why he's so damn intriguing.

[volsmet]

3 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I don't consider Watt or Miller to actually be OLBs, though.

 

 

Agree completely. I’m just talking about guys who played near Simmons’ weight and have led pffs pass rushing rankings in recent years.

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, volsmet said:

Agree completely. I’m just talking about guys who played near Simmons’ weight and have led pffs pass rushing rankings in recent years.

 

 

And he can be a pure OLB and just stay in on nickel situations... And cover the slot or TE. 

 

He's a magical beast. 

 

He'd add so much more to the D than Young.

 

But damnit. Young as a pass rusher is a nasty thought.

[Koolblue13]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

 

And he can be a pure OLB and just stay in on nickel situations... And cover the slot or TE. 

 

He's a magical beast. 

 

He'd add so much more to the D than Young.

 

But damnit. Young as a pass rusher is a nasty thought.

There's no way to know how good of pass rusher that Simmons could be if they parked him at OLB.

 

Funny, people say "we wouldn't use him correctly", but I'm pretty sure if we had him where Sweat was (in coverage too often), he would have been the player that makes a Manusky look goodish.

[KDawg]

4 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

There's no way to know how good of pass rusher that Simmons could be if they parked him at OLB.

 

 

Oh. He'd be good. 

 

This is why I absolutely LOVE the idea of Simmons. He can be an OLB. Period. Not a safety. Not a corner. Not a DE. But an OLB. And he can still be used in coverage, rushing situations, downhill LB play.

 

His knock is instincts. But I don't see his instincts as being all that delayed. He would transform this defense more than Young in my opinion. 

 

But Young is a better rusher. 

 

Back to my arbitrary grading system from a few posts above...

 

As a pass rusher:

 

Young: 95

Simmons: 88

 

Simmons just brings more to the table... but if the edge rush is your priority, you have to go with Young. Have to. 

[skinny21]

Watched a couple of receivers last night - Gabriel Davis and Kendall Hinton.  Thought Davis looked good - solid all around player.  Nice hands, surprisingly decent speed (was the big knock I’d read), good size, pretty good after the catch.  Think he’d be a nice add in the mid-late rds.  
 

Hinton is super intriguing.  Played qb, ran the ball a ton, can return kicks.  Converted to receiver (I think Junior year after 2 years at qb) and went from 6/61 to 73 catches for 1k yards.  His hands and some subtle moves on his routes both surprised me considering how new he is to the position.  Very elusive.  I thought he was a little guy (like Sims) when I watched him, but he’s closer to Terry’s size.  Probably an UDFA, but some team could have fun with his skill set. 

[Going Commando]

1 hour ago, Anselmheifer said:

You know who I think may really fall hard this year? Grant Delpit. I just saw a mock draft where he was taken in the back half of the first round. I could see him running a slower than expected 40 time and going later than that. Honestly, I’m not sure where I’d consider him a value pick for the skins. The idea of him trying to tackle Elliott or Barkley makes me nervous. I think he would be a value for us in the top of the 3rd, maybe. In the second, I think he’s still a risky pick.  

 

I've been hard on Delpit because he was super overrated this season and he didn't deserve to win the Thorpe in any way, shape, or form.  That was Okudah's award.  But in the second round, he offers real value.  In the third round, he's huge value.  Consider that he has genuine leadership qualities and that his zone coverages are outstanding for a college safety.  He has the potential to be a really good one of those hybrid safety/corner types like we're projecting with K'Von Wallace, Xavier McKinney, and Shaun Wade.  The position that Minkah Fitzpatrick has made really popular right now.  He has corner-quality ball skills.  And he can blitz.  The play strength isn't great and the tackling can be downright bad, which makes him very dodgy in box duty and as your primary alley defender.  He is no Jonathan Abrams, that's for sure, so I don't think he's a great fit as a pure safety.  But he plays physical even if he's understrength.  And in the slot?  And as a deep half/third or single deep?  I can live with strength and tackling issues there in exchange for someone who makes plays on the ball at a high rate, so long as he keeps playing physical.  He's a lot like Xavier McKinney except that he's significantly bigger.  I could see him getting a lot stronger at the next level too since his frame is big.

 

He's another reason to trade down early and often and stockpile picks in the first three rounds.  Trade Trent too. 

 

Give me two later firsts (Miami and Indy?), three seconds (Indy and Trent trade?) and an extra third and I can build you a dominant secondary and offensive line, plus I can get high caliber offensive skill weapons in one big draft crop.  Because I think I can get a good LT in the early teens, a great center/guard type in the late teens to 20s, three good DBs in the second (Delpit, Terrell/Henderson, Johnson?), Najee and Tylan Wallace or Isaiah Hodgins in the third, and KJ Hill and Solomon Kinley/Logan Stenberg/Shane Lemieux in the fourth.  That team is a powerhouse in 2021.  That's how you turn the roster around quick and properly support the young quarterback who was a stud prospect that fell into our laps last year.  That's how you start winning a lot of games quickly.

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

 

Oh. He'd be good. 

 

This is why I absolutely LOVE the idea of Simmons. He can be an OLB. Period. Not a safety. Not a corner. Not a DE. But an OLB. And he can still be used in coverage, rushing situations, downhill LB play.

 

His knock is instincts. But I don't see his instincts as being all that delayed. He would transform this defense more than Young in my opinion. 

 

But Young is a better rusher. 

 

Back to my arbitrary grading system from a few posts above...

 

As a pass rusher:

 

Young: 95

Simmons: 88

 

Simmons just brings more to the table... but if the edge rush is your priority, you have to go with Young. Have to. 

 

I really love watching Simmons play, but I just can't see passing on an Edge talent like Chase Young for him. IMO the only thing you'd pass on CY for is a great QB prospect, if you need a QB. Part of it is purely positional, as you mentioned earlier. An elite Edge rusher brings so much to a defense, especially if you also have other good pieces on the DL, as we do. I think Simmons brings more in terms of versatility, but IMO Chase Young probably brings more in terms of overall impact to a defense on a consistent basis. If you have an elite Edge guy who an offense has to watch and account for on every single snap it's hard to overstate how much impact that has. I don't think it's a coincidence that the 49ers got Bosa and Arik Armstead's sack numbers went from 3 to 10. 

[HTTRDynasty]

 

[HTTRDynasty]

 

[Koolblue13]

Simmons is just a hair taller than Sean Taylor and beats him in every single category. If he can handle the mental part of FS, he could be parked right there for his career.

[arftech]

I'm not drafting a 230 lb linebacker and I do understand he was good at the college level.  Next level up is a whole new dynamic.  If Cincy take Chase I'm trading out for a bounty and if Chase is there at 2 I'm taking him and going the **** home!  Ya'll overthinking this.

[HTTRDynasty]

I like Simmons, but an elite EDGE player can single-handedly take over a game.  If anyone needed a reminder, they just had to tune into the playoffs last weekend, where the outcome of almost every game was heavily influenced by the pressure from the edge.  

 

Von Miller's epic 2015-16 MVP playoff run also comes to mind:

2015 Von Miller

[86 Snyder]

13 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I don't like him at all.  I don't think I've ever seen a wide receiver less interested in the physical aspect of the game.  He's the type who likes hitting game winners but not winning games.

 

Could you offer some analysis on a few WRs?  Super interested in your take. 

 

Higgins, Tyler Johnson, Justin Jefferson.

[KDawg]

42 minutes ago, arftech said:

I'm not drafting a 230 lb linebacker and I do understand he was good at the college level.  Next level up is a whole new dynamic.  If Cincy take Chase I'm trading out for a bounty and if Chase is there at 2 I'm taking him and going the **** home!  Ya'll overthinking this.

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/130439-nfl-draft-line-backer-size-is-not-that-important

 

Quote

 

To better understand this, I have created a list of starting middle and inside linebackers in the NFL today.

The results were surprising.

New Orleans MLB Jonathan Vilma 230 lbs.

Tennessee MLB Stephen Tulloch 235 lbs.

Indianapolis MLB Gary Brackett 235 lbs.

Seattle SLB Leroy Hill 238 lbs.

San Francisco MLB Patrick Willis 240 lbs.

Seattle MLB Lofa Tatupu 242 lbs.

Oakland MLB Kirk Morrison 240 lbs.

St. Louis MLB Will Witherspoon 240 lbs.

San Diego ILB Stephen Cooper 235 lbs.

Cleveland MLB D'Qwell Jackson 240 lbs.

Cincinnati MLB Dhani Jones 240 lbs.

Green Bay ILB Nick Barnett 236 lbs.

Kansas City MLB Derrick Johnson 242 lbs.

Tampa bay MLB Barrett Ruud 241 lbs.

Buffalo MLB Paul Posluzny 238 lbs.

 

 

Dated article, but that's MIDDLE linebackers.

 

What are you talking about?

 

Darius Leonard - 230lbs

 

Lavonte David - 233lbs

 

Telvin Smith - 218lbs

 

Thomas Davis - 235lbs

[skinny21]

There’s something to be said for the idea that elite pass rushers come around much more often than someone like Simmons.  As well as the idea that great pass rushers can be molded/found later in the draft at times.   
 

Add to that the impact he can have in areas we’ve struggled with recently - FS play, outside runs, covering TEs - the fact he probably allows us to stay in our base D when we’d usually go nickel, can cover receivers on corner blitzes, or fill in for Collins when he blitzes, can play as an overhang to blitz or set the edge, etc... the possibilities are just endless.  
 

Wih that said, I’m going to have a big smile when Goodell announces we’ve selected Chase Young.

I hope Simmons lands with a creative DC... in the AFC.  

 

[Going Commando]

2 minutes ago, 86 Snyder said:

Higgins, Tyler Johnson, Justin Jefferson.

 

Sure.  I think Higgins is a physically superior player who is just starting to fill out his huge frame.  He looks bigger and stronger than Justyn Ross, and by the time he has his full man strength, I think he will be overpowering because his play strength is already good.  Doesn't have problems getting inside leverage off a physical jam and maintaining balance and speed through the contact window and he can easily box anyone out.  He's got some real get off speed too, for such a tall player.  I like his efficiency in the release, just like a jab step and then he gets moving.  He doesn't have to work as hard to fool you because of that plain old physical superiority.  Almost every corner is at a significant size disadvantage against him.  And in the open field, when he's got that gigantic stride opened up, he eats up cushion and runs away from smaller guys.  Really hard to run with someone who is that strong and that long-legged.  I also like the way he can adjust to the ball in the air and really utilize that massive catch radius.  He's got body control.  I would say the biggest weakness is probably concentration drops.  This suddenness isn't the same as you'd get from a smaller receiver either, he is a long strider.  So he's probably not going to be super effective on certain types of short game concepts.  I do think he can get a release on crossers against most corners and do damage, it's just a matter of using his body to shield the throwing lane and then hanging on to the ball.  Running after the catch ability isn't going to wow anyone.  In the open field he'll just run away from you or run you over, but he's not going to shake and bake you in short spaces like Jeudy or Lamb or Ruggs.  Way too much mass on him to execute those kinds of steps.  He's got wide receiver weight in a tight end frame.  I could see him playing around 240+ in the NFL.  I think he's a top 20 talent.  But WR draft range has been tough to nail down the past few years.

 

Tyler Johnson is a second rounder to me.  I think he's a grinder.  I like the way he sequences his moves and steps off the line of scrimmage and can work back to win inside leverage late in the stem.  It kind of reminds me of a ball handler in basketball who has a good herky-jerky dribble drive game.  It's very deceptive.  He is a taller receiver, but very sudden in his short area movement skills.  He can get turned very quickly and he can reset his weight to block you in a flash when you think he's headed downfield.  It makes him really effective at selling the vertical routes on his comebacks and hitches.  So I think he wins with trickery rather than raw athleticism.  He lines up outside a lot, but I think he is a very good slot receiver and has excellent potential as a big slot in the NFL, but he'll likely play in multiple alignments at the next level whereas a guy like Tee Higgins will probably stay outside as an X receiver most of his snaps.  He's physical enough to be satisfactory in most of ways where he needs to be, but you kind of wish a guy like him who is bigger than most of his match ups would bully them a little more.  You wish he would hold his ground on blocks and sustain them better too--he's not disinterested like a softie like Raegor, but I think he is a little under-strength for his size.  He competes as a blocker though.  He just kind of plays slow.  I think that's probably the biggest negative to his game, and the thing that really separates him from the top tier receivers in this class.  He's not going to scare anyone with his speed and it limits him downfield.  But the route-running and hands are so good and he is such a clean player that he projects well to the NFL level, and should be very productive in a middle of the field role.  I think there is very little bust-factor with him, and I think Tyler Boyd isn't an unreachable as a benchmark for Johnson in style of play, role, and production.

 

I love Justin Jefferson.  He's been one of my favorite players in the class.  I think he has the heart of a captain and a winner and that has a lot of the same strengths as a route runner as Tyler Johnson, but he's faster and has a vertical element to his game.  Toughness is great.  I think he's very versatile and that he can line up throughout your offense.  And I think he gives high effort in each part of this job, including being pretty effective as a blocker in the slot.  He is super good against zone coverage, which suggests a slot role at the next level.  Feels those seams out immediately and drops right into them.  The problem is that he is not a dynamic athlete.  Tyler Johnson is quicker than him.  Long armed press corners strap him up, he has problems getting off the line of scrimmage and getting open down field against them.  There is no wiggle in his game.  That's the major difference between him and the true blue chippers of the class: Higgins, Ruggs, Lamb, and Jeudy.  It's why I think he'll go in the second round instead of the first.  In a thinner wide receiver class, he might have been able to sneak into the end of round one.  But not this one.