2020 Comprehensive Draft Thread

[mistertim]

57 minutes ago, Anselmheifer said:

 

I pooped on Daniel Jones and Josh Allen, and I don't think either is ever going to be a top 8 QB, but they have both been better than I thought. That said, I think Justin Herbert is a better prospect than Allen and Jones. Maybe he wouldn't be a terrible choice that high. 

Not sure what to think of Fromm. I wouldn't mind taking a flier on him as a long term backup in the later rounds, but I think he'll go earlier than I like. 

 

Fromm is sort of an odd man out at this point. He had a down year after having an excellent sophomore season. He's unlikely to be a 1st rounder, but if he stayed he'd have to compete with Lawrence and Fields next draft for a high draft spot, even if he had a much better year. Good but not elite arm, experience in a pro style offense, pretty good footwork and mechanics, inconsistent at going through reads...tends to lock on to his primary read a bit too often for my liking. Good accuracy but it fell off this year...not sure exactly why. 

[RemoveSnyder]

Personally I think Herbert is a better prospect than Daniel Jones. I also thought Jones was a better prospect than Haskins. 

[Anselmheifer]

3 minutes ago, Monk4thaHALL said:

Personally I think Herbert is a better prospect than Daniel Jones. I also thought Jones was a better prospect than Haskins. 

 

I mean, other than never showing anything in college to back up this assertion, I agree. The best thing Daniel Jones did in college was have a good QB coach. There has literally never been a successful NFL QB with Jones collegiate YPA, accuracy and yardage numbers. Ever. 

[RemoveSnyder]

1 minute ago, Anselmheifer said:

I mean, other than never showing anything in college to back up this assertion, I agree. The best thing Daniel Jones did in college was have a good QB coach. There has literally never been a successful NFL QB with Jones collegiate YPA, accuracy and yardage numbers. Ever. 

 

I mean I guess you need to know how to evaluate QBs in order to judge them. Probably why so many people who outright mocked Jones were silenced upon his first game showing competency right form the get go, and why conversely Haskins first appearance was bleach to the eyes worthy, made even the most ardent supporters run for the hills. 

[Anselmheifer]

2 minutes ago, Monk4thaHALL said:

 

I mean I guess you need to know how to evaluate QBs in order to judge them. Probably why so many people who outright mocked Jones were silenced upon his first game showing competency right form the get go, and why conversely Haskins first appearance was bleach to the eyes worthy, made even the most ardent supporters run for the hills. 

 

It pains me to say, that thus far you look correct, about Jones, but not necessarily Haskins. I keep waiting for Jones to suck and vindicate me. We will see, I guess. Haskins looked good at the end of the season. The analytics say Haskins was a better prospect. The arm is better, by a mile. The stats were better, by a mile. He beat our Burrows at Ohio State.  

 

Haskins might wind up stinking, but I still think Jones' ceiling is mediocre. The giants would have been better off taking someone else in that slot last year, Josh Allen, TJ Hockenson, Devin Bush, really, almost anyone, and then taking Tua or even Herbert this year. IMHO. I don't claim to be an expert in evaluating college QB's. 

[RemoveSnyder]

1 hour ago, Anselmheifer said:

I keep waiting for Jones to suck and vindicate me.

 

I don't actively root against anyone anymore. Certainly not Haskins. 

It's just a waste of energy and I'm too old for that **** anymore. 

 

But I simply came to the point where I was a solid "pass" on drafting Haskins. No need to get into it that much but I preferred Jones to him. I also liked the idea of trading for Rosen instead of using a 1st for drafting Haskins, so there's that. But, I also preferred the idea of drafting Stidham Day 3 instead of paying a 1st for Haskins.

 

That's the basic macro view I had.

 

1 hour ago, Anselmheifer said:

I mean, other than never showing anything in college to back up this assertion, I agree.

 

There were several things I saw to differentiate the two, but there's really no reason to go over them in detail, water under the bridge. 

But quickly gliding over them, one of the first things I saw was how each handled basic route combinations differently. 

Simply, it felt to me that Haskins was far more dependent upon his primary route combination to, specifically, 1/3rd field reads. 

Often going with the less challenging throw, colloquially termed dumpoff, the underneath shallow cross, the underneath route from a high-low concept, or the safety release (3rd option) RB route. 

 

Contrary to a lot of theses I read here, both Jones and Haskins ran a lot of similar concepts per the passing tree. It wasn't worlds different, imo. It was often a primary route combo to one side of the field with an adjoining route combination to the opposite side, in unison. The 1/3rd field reads just simplified the two simultaneous route combos into one read which isolated a defender. 

 

More often than not I witnessed Jones had the ability to process one route combo to one side of the field, come off it, and flip hips and head to a second combo the opposite side of field and still effectively target the open receiver. For Haskins I would have said the majority of the time he rarely pivoted off the primary route combination to the next set of two combo routes. When he hit the magic 3 seconds for a QB, he was looking to hit the safety valve RB dumpoff.

 

What I did like about Haskins though was his seeming ability to target the open receiver of the two, consistently, despite the fact it was just two routes and hinged upon one defender to read (again, probably oversimplifying). 

 

So, effectively people, writers, simplified that to just "Haskins is not as developed as Jones." But it was a truism for me that between the two, Jones showed a larger mastery of his offense compared to Haskins with his. But part of that came with Jones having more games started, being older and having more years of development as the starter. So it was never the pinnacle piece of evidence. 

 

There were also things like mechanics, don't want to get into it, where I favored Jones. And I had some real issues with Haskins mechanics, both feet and upper torso followthrough. And there were other attributes like athleticism, or more specifically running ability, which I felt favored Jones on breakdown (coverage sack) situations.

 

Between the two it was clear as day that Jones had running ability which Haskins didn't and in those situations when the 3 seconds are up, the route combos were shut down and the RB had a Spy, I favored Jones to be able to scramble.

 

If I had to point to one play as evidence, I would have pointed out the Clemson game where Jones bailed the pocket and extended the play running laterally to his left searching for a downfield target, only to elude Clelin Ferrell in the process. And if you watch that play closely you see a 1st round talent athlete in Ferrell take a too shallow angle on Jones who actually out runs him laterally which forces Ferrell to flatten out his angle, never actually sacking him. Play resulted in a deflection, but no matter, the evidence was simply that Jones had athleticism and running ability in barking distance of a 1st round defender, spoke volumes imo.  

 

Lastly, there's a quotient, probably very much unmeasurable from statistics, which I believe quantifies a player's psychological profile. And the only way to unearth them is to quite literally assess the person on a day to day basis from a success / struggle perspective on how they each react to adversary. 

 

I've often argued that the space between a player's ears matters the most when it comes to QB, nothing to do with "intelligence," just how the dude ticks, how they react ... particularly to challenges from coaches, teammates, whether it be physical or psychological. How they handle injury, how they handle regime change, how they handle a coach trashing them in the media, how they handle a new draft pick challenging their spot, ect. 

 

Basically, sometimes a guy with a journal full of platitudes like RG3, once actually dealing with doubt from the same people who a few months earlier were hyping him up, suddenly doesn't seem to have all the answers when they have to walk in wilderness alone. If that makes sense. 

 

But basically I came away with my own proprietary way to judge that, albeit limited, and I liked Jones better. 

Stats never were a part of my equation. But, I certainly could be very much off too. 

 

Thanks.

[PartyPosse]

59 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Fromm is sort of an odd man out at this point. He had a down year after having an excellent sophomore season. He's unlikely to be a 1st rounder, but if he stayed he'd have to compete with Lawrence and Fields next draft for a high draft spot, even if he had a much better year. Good but not elite arm, experience in a pro style offense, pretty good footwork and mechanics, inconsistent at going through reads...tends to lock on to his primary read a bit too often for my liking. Good accuracy but it fell off this year...not sure exactly why. 

I think it would have served him best to have stayed for his senior year. It’s a crowded field this year for QBs and with Alabama re-tooling and LSU losing their top guy, Georgia would have been a serious playoff threat. Outside of Swift pretty much everyone is returning.

[mistertim]

36 minutes ago, Monk4thaHALL said:

 

I mean I guess you need to know how to evaluate QBs in order to judge them. Probably why so many people who outright mocked Jones were silenced upon his first game showing competency right form the get go, and why conversely Haskins first appearance was bleach to the eyes worthy, made even the most ardent supporters run for the hills. 

 

I always figured that Jones would be better than Haskins off the bat and would be fine as a day 1 starter because in college he played in a more pro style offense, had a pro QB coach, and had plenty of starting experience. But I think his ceiling is possibly close to where he is now. I could be wrong, but I don't see him ever being a superstar, mostly just a good QB who can help a good team, but not a guy who's going to elevate a team or put them on his back. He kinda reminds me of a more athletic Eli (though whether he has Eli's propensity for playing big in big games remains to be seen). And I think he's always going to have fumbling problems. He did through college and it stuck through in the pros. 

[Thinking Skins]

2 hours ago, Anselmheifer said:

 

I pooped on Daniel Jones and Josh Allen, and I don't think either is ever going to be a top 8 QB, but they have both been better than I thought. That said, I think Justin Herbert is a better prospect than Allen and Jones. Maybe he wouldn't be a terrible choice that high. 

Not sure what to think of Fromm. I wouldn't mind taking a flier on him as a long term backup in the later rounds, but I think he'll go earlier than I like. 

 

I'll say this, but the way Josh Allen plays reminds me a bit of Eli, Flacco and Grossman. Heck what's that old Carolina QB name? Delhome? No we never consider them the top QBs in the league, but all of them have SB experience on their resume. with the first two winning it. I can easily see Allen leaning on his defense and running game and getting hot in the playoffs one year and taking down a powerhouse to go to the SB. 

[RemoveSnyder]

6 minutes ago, mistertim said:

He kinda reminds me of a more athletic Eli (though whether he has Eli's propensity for playing big in big games remains to be seen).

 

I mean I'm not an authority on QBs by any stretch. But that basically was the reason why Mara and especially Tisch went for Jones. It was like cloning Eli's ability, stylistcally from Cutcliffe. But I will say, I thought it was eerie how simlar the passing route combos were between Meyer and Coach Cut. Not worlds different imo. 

 

Though I think Jones is wound different upstairs, than Eli. He's more cool and dare I say, less meathead-ish.

 

As for big plays, I was consistently impressed that Jones dropped dimes in basically every game I saw. I'm not sure what people were watching, but each game I saw, Jones made passes that produced points and kept his team in the game. Not a boulder on the shoulder type guy, no where near -- nor never will be in the Rogers category, but steady with a touch of dime dust magic here and there. Like you said reminiscent of Eli. 

[volsmet]

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

 

maybe even Simmons if someone truly believes he's the next Derwin James.

Simmons > Derwin.

 

[carex]

So, with our first rounder likely being a guy from Ohio State, and no second round pick, which Alabama player are we going to be able to draft this year?

[Anselmheifer]

20 minutes ago, volsmet said:

Simmons > Derwin.

 

 

Vooooooolsmet! I feel like  screaming Beatles fan. Where you been? 

 

Also, if you like Simmons more than Derwin, how do feel about Simmons vs. Chase Young?

[Fresh8686]

I enjoyed watching Van in the Florida game I've seen so far. Maybe some one to look at in the 5th or 6th round.  Reminds me of Terry Mclaurin in some respects. Not the burner Terry is, he's more of a projected 4.49 guy, but he's a strong technician with his routes and leverages. Also 24 like Terry and a special teams ace. Wish he was a little faster and sturdier though. He can get pushed around some.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

 

I always figured that Jones would be better than Haskins off the bat and would be fine as a day 1 starter because in college he played in a more pro style offense, had a pro QB coach, and had plenty of starting experience. But I think his ceiling is possibly close to where he is now. I could be wrong, but I don't see him ever being a superstar, mostly just a good QB who can help a good team, but not a guy who's going to elevate a team or put them on his back. He kinda reminds me of a more athletic Eli (though whether he has Eli's propensity for playing big in big games remains to be seen). And I think he's always going to have fumbling problems. He did through college and it stuck through in the pros. 

 

I've watched almost every Jones game this season and alas he was much better than I thought he would be.  I thought he'd have a high ceiling but low floor before the draft -- mediocre, Keenum type.   I look wrong.  He looks better than that.   According to a NY reporter who I listened on 106.7, Jones is a maniac workaholic type.  He's up at 4:30 AM supposedly every day and grinds and studies.  That's one of Shanny's big things about QBs in the draft -- he said the one thing he doesn't really know about the quarterbacks he drafts are their work habits and once they are in the building based on that he can predict much better their chances of success.

 

Gettleman said weeks back that Jones was Shurmur's guy.  Shurmur in studying the QBs liked him the best.    Some of Jones faults in college has played out in the pros -- especially the turnovers and fumbles.  But in college and ditto in the senior bowl he was criticized for being conservative.  In the pros, he's been in a mixed bag.  His YPA isn't good.  And if I recall statistically he wasn't great throwing past 10 yards just like college (I might be misrecalling though but am too lazy to look that up).  But he's a gutsy thrower when I watch him where he's willing to take risks.  

 

In college the thing I like best about him was his grit and he was unflappable in the pocket even under pressure.  That's carried to his pro career thus far.    He strikes me right now where he's going to become a rich man's Alex Smith.  He has similar mobility.  He thrives with the short game.  But I think tougher in the pocket than Alex and is more willing to take chances.  I don't think the dude is going to be great.  But I think he's a lock as to being good. 

1 hour ago, volsmet said:

Simmons > Derwin.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

54 minutes ago, volsmet said:

Simmons > Derwin.

 

 

I've loved Chase Young for most of this college season.  I think he will be an absolute stud.  But I am not in the camp of I'd not trade the 2nd pick.  It would have to be a good haul so I wouldn't be a cheap date on that front but I think I would do it if I can get two of the Dolphins first round picks and their 2nd.

 

Simmons to me is the lynchpin of that.  If you get him at 5.  And lets say Ruggs or Higgins with the next pick or whatever O lineman is there, Willis, etc.  And then another dude.  I think I might be open for business.  But if Simmons isn't there I don't love it.  I love Lamb and Jeudy and Okudah but would want Simmons over those 3.   Having said that we got time so I might change my mind. 😀

[HTTRDynasty]

2 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

Wut?

 

The only way Cincy picks Herbert over Burrow is if Burrow literally shows up to his interview drunk and not wearing pants. 

 

I could potentially see Herbert going to 10, but I think top 5 would be tough. There are already 3 guys who are basically locks in the top 5: Burrow, Young, Okudah. Then for the final two you have multiple guys who could go...Jeudy or Lamb, Wills, Thomas or Wirfs, maybe even Simmons if someone truly believes he's the next Derwin James.

 

I think this may be a little bit of a case of Miller trying to goad Burrow into attending the Senior Bowl.  He hypes it up every year, as he'll be one of the media scouts there.  Pretty harmless speculation either way.

[Skinsinparadise]

57 minutes ago, carex said:

So, with our first rounder likely being a guy from Ohio State, and no second round pick, which Alabama player are we going to be able to draft this year?

 

The big Alabama players are likely gone in the first two rounds.  After that maybe Harris in the 3rd if he comes out? someone like Jared Mayden in the 5th?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[HTTRDynasty]

42 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I've watched almost every Jones game this season and alas he was much better than I thought he would be.  I thought he'd have a high ceiling but low floor before the draft -- mediocre, Keenum type.   I look wrong.  He looks better than that.   According to a NY reporter who I listened on 106.7, Jones is a maniac workaholic type.  He's up at 4:30 AM supposedly every day and grinds and studies.  That's one of Shanny's big things about QBs in the draft -- he said the one thing he doesn't really know about the quarterbacks he drafts are their work habits and once they are in the building based on that he can predict much better their chances of success.

 

Gettleman said weeks back that Jones was Shurmur's guy.  Shurmur in studying the QBs liked him the best.    Some of Jones faults in college has played out in the pros -- especially the turnovers and fumbles.  But in college and ditto in the senior bowl he was criticized for being conservative.  In the pros, he's been in a mixed bag.  His YPA isn't good.  And if I recall statistically he wasn't great throwing past 10 yards just like college (I might be misrecalling though but am too lazy to look that up).  But he's a gutsy thrower when I watch him where he's willing to take risks.  

 

He was actually pretty good in his rookie year.  Better than Haskins at least.  See below.

 

When it comes to being a gutsy thrower, both Haskins (2nd) and Jones (3rd) ranked tops in the league in aggressiveness percentage.

 

 

 

[volsmet]

1 hour ago, Anselmheifer said:

 

Vooooooolsmet! I feel like  screaming Beatles fan. Where you been? 

 

Also, if you like Simmons more than Derwin, how do feel about Simmons vs. Chase Young?

This draft may have the best DE, QB, WR, OT, & Lb/S hybrid prospects in the last few years. I need to watch a lot more of Thomas, but the bit I’ve seen was special. Chase is the best defensive prospect in the last 10 years, imo. Jeudy is the best WR prospect I’ve seen in quite some time, but I evaluate WRs about as well as Screech Powers evaluates outfits. Tua is as special a QB prospect as we’ve seen in several years. Okudah is the best CB prospect I’ve seen ... going back further than I can bring to mind. Then there is Simmons, who may end up being the most impactful prospect in the class. Simmons is elite in coverage & great when asked to rush, he can play nearly anything other than DT ... I wouldn’t even be hesitant to match him up outside v a WR like Alshon if injuries necessitated it... and I’d expect him to produce if my roster needed an EDGE for a week. He’s about as unique a guy as I’ve seen, he’s unbelievably explosive & can play FS, SS, any LB, slot cb, and rush ... he punishes backs that step up to block him & he makes a lot of the defensive calls for the Tigers; he’s supposed to have an incredible understanding of what the most creative DC in the country throws at him each week. I know some of Clemsons opponents have called him the brightest defensive player they’ve had to go up against.
 

It’s tougher to scheme v Simmons than any DE in today’s nfl. I believe Mack went about 7 weeks without a sack? Something like that. The freaks off the edge aren’t as disruptive to the game as they once were, but Chase is still the guy I’m taking because you can’t simulate fear & he will put it in every QBs head all game long. Trevor Lawrence wouldn’t drop back at all v OSU, he was crawling *up his centers arse every time he needed to attempt a pass & Clemson looked like Navy because of it... well, he & the unbelievable job Okudah did all night on the big WRs from Clemson.

 

[HTTRDynasty]

1 hour ago, volsmet said:

Simmons > Derwin.

 

 

No joke, I was just thinking this morning "where the hell has volsmet been".  Good to see you're still alive.

[Skinsinparadise]

21 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

He was actually pretty good in his rookie year.  Better than Haskins at least.  See below.

 

When it comes to being a gutsy thrower, both Haskins (2nd) and Jones (3rd) ranked tops in the league in aggressiveness percentage.

 

 

Thanks, yeah Jones looked that way to me.  He didn't come off that way to me in college but in the pros he was a gutsy thrower.  I am also a sucker for hearing about QBs with killer work ethics.  Arians in his book about QBs got into extreme detail about all the things he want in his QB but he stressed work ethic a lot.  Jones supposedly is like Peyton on that front.

 

Drew Lock who I liked.  @volsmet liked even more.  Had some nice flashes.  Up and down.  But it looks like he's going to be a good one.

 

As for Haskins, I loved what I saw in the last 2 games.  I got one concern about him but hopefully Rivera addresses it.  His arm talent is obvious.  He looked more mobile in the pros to me than he did in college.   So I have some optimism.   I'd love to get him a young O lineman, a TE (maybe via FA?) and a receiver.

[volsmet]

Haskins had 1/8th of the cap in the press box, no vet WR or TE to count on, & an Oline that not even the Georgia Bulldogs would envy. 
 

The concern I’ve heard more, since DH had some success, is that coaches are far less comfortable coaching a guy with unorthodox mechanics, because they struggle to identify specific issues as easily. Makes sense. DH looks like he’s in pain while making some beautiful passes, passes no one else can replicate with the same delivery. His body just syncs up differently. 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

11 minutes ago, volsmet said:

Haskins had 1/8th of the cap in the press box, no vet WR or TE to count on, & an Oline that not even the Georgia Bulldogs would envy. 
 

 

TE might be a challenge in this draft, I just started watching and I do like Kmet.   But we can't hit everything in one draft.

 

Do you know much about Ebron, considering your contacts with the Colts?  I gather Ballard doesn't like him because he was suspected of faking an injury this year to wait out some of the season to get to FA?

[volsmet]

Unbelievable class coming out on the OL.

 

SOLOMON KINDLEYG, GEORGIA BULLDOGS

 

Georgia redshirt junior G Solomon Kindley declared for the 2020 NFL Draft on Tuesday.

The 6-foot-4, 330-pound three-year starter joins left tackle Andrew Thomas and right tackle Isaiah Wilson in declaring early for the draft. Kindley spent the past two seasons at left guard. A former three-star recruit, Kindley was a big recruiting find for the Dawgs and a developmental success story for a program that these days typically stocks its classes with four- and five-star prospects. He'll likely go in the middle-rounds in April.

SOURCE: Atlanta Journal-Constitution

Jan 8, 2020, 8:07 PM ET

•  

 

26 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

TE might be a challenge in this draft, I just started watching and I do like Kmet.   But we can't hit everything in one draft.

 

Do you know much about Ebron, considering your contacts with the Colts?  I gather Ballard doesn't like him because he was suspected of faking an injury this year to wait out some of the season to get to FA?

Never had a talk about him, but it wouldn’t be hard to find out what the pro’s & con’s are with him. We need a TE desperately, obviously.