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2020 Comprehensive Draft Thread

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2 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

The way ive always looked at it, you take a difference maker at the top of the draft.  A game changer.  Now its a shifting scale, but ultimately you have to change your team with that pick.  That can be an All American LT who is a multi year probowler, or a top flight WR that can change your offense.  Either way you dont want to use that pick to simply address a "need."  If you do, you find yourself settling.  I admit that sometimes those things align, which is great, but i cant agree with the mentality of "take the best LT on the board at your pick."  I only want to do that if that player is good enough.  Give me another stop gap at LT and take a stud at pretty much any position in the first, if the only LT on the board is not worth the pick we have.

 

Agree 100%. I don't think its a coincidence that this team rarely has a player make the top 50 player lists, heck of late they don't even make top 100 lists, no matter who is ranking them, PFF, NFL Network via players selecting or whatever.  I think we have plenty of good players, not enough game breakers.  

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25 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I admit I'd love to have one of these dudes Lamb, Jeudy, Ruggs.  In the 2nd maybe Reagor, J. Jefferson, D. Smith.  I know there are other fish in the sea which I am sure I'd tout in the off season once I dive in more.  This could be a historic draft for WR, it wouldn't be fun not to be part of that party. 

Agreed, it's a good year to need wr, but it's also a bad year to need wr and not have a 2nd.  I think there are going to be several guys taken in the 2nd and 3rd that could make it into the 1st in most other years.  Which also means guys like jeudy and lamb might fall a few slots, as teams may take another premium position early planning to jump on a wr in the second.

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11 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Agree 100%. I don't think its a coincidence that this team rarely has a player make the top 50 player lists, heck of late they don't even make top 100 lists, no matter who is ranking them, PFF, NFL Network via players selecting or whatever.  I think we have plenty of good players, not enough game breakers.  

 

 

This is why im leaning toward going after juedy, or even trading back and getting Delpit or even Ruggs.  Been a LLOONNNGGG time since we took a playmaker in the 1st round.  Weve built a foundation, lets get someone who puts the fear of god in the opposing coaches and keeps them up at night

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1 hour ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

This is why im leaning toward going after juedy, or even trading back and getting Delpit or even Ruggs.  Been a LLOONNNGGG time since we took a playmaker in the 1st round.  Weve built a foundation, lets get someone who puts the fear of god in the opposing coaches and keeps them up at night

Jerry Jeudy isn't having as good of a year as last year.  Is he getting doubled more therefore giving other players 1 on 1s or os he having a down year?

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41 minutes ago, HoggLife said:

Jerry Jeudy isn't having as good of a year as last year.  Is he getting doubled more therefore giving other players 1 on 1s or os he having a down year?

 

His genius QB got hurt and Mac Jones is a far lesser player.  Another big factor is the emergence of Najee Harris as their top weapon.  That took away yards and especially touchdowns from the WRs.  DeVonta Smith also had a big year and a lot of his explosion in production probably came at Jeudy's expense.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Joe Burrow's ability to improvise and make plays when things breakdown is really impressive.

 

I know @stevemcqueen1 has been touting J. Jefferson as a slot WR.  I like him, too.  If they end up with a 2nd rounder somehow I'd put him in a group among other receivers I like. 

 

 Burrow is my guy.

If the Redskins have a chance to get him they should. The guy is a great all-around QB.

But to further succeed, he would need a good OC, and I'm not certain he will get that here. It may have to be him + OC + HC and a couple years, but he will be a star in this league.

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45 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

His genius QB got hurt and Mac Jones is a far lesser player.  Another big factor is the emergence of Najee Harris as their top weapon.  That took away yards and especially touchdowns from the WRs.  DeVonta Smith also had a big year and a lot of his explosion in production probably came at Jeudy's expense.

 

 

 

 

Dont dismiss the fact that there are 2 other top tier wr on that team.   Ruggs is absolutely dangerous.  You take thise 3 wrs and replace the top 3 wr on any nfl team and they upgrade a good number of teams

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5 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I admit I'd love to have one of these dudes Lamb, Jeudy, Ruggs.  In the 2nd maybe Reagor, J. Jefferson, D. Smith.  I know there are other fish in the sea which I am sure I'd tout in the off season once I dive in more.  This could be a historic draft for WR, it wouldn't be fun not to be part of that party. 

 

There is going to be value at wr throughout the draft.  It'll be like last year.  But I have a feeling that the value of tackle and corner will fall off a cliff outside the top 40.

 

IMO the place to get value at tackle is the teens and at corner is the 20s and 30s and at receiver it will come 40-60 and at rb it will come 60-120.

 

We have good young talent at wr too.  We're in a spot where secondary traits like blocking and slot route running are desirable, and that comes cheaper.  We could certainly use a Ruggs or Jeudy or Lamb, but McLaurin has proven to be a future #1.

 

I wouldn't overstate the rarity of this class either.  Last year's class was like 20+ deep in quality too, and next year's will be stacked too.  Colleges are churning out NFL receivers right now because of the full establishment of the spread.  All of the blue chip programs have multiple NFL guys and even the third tier programs like Minnesota and Purdue and Wake Forest do.  The true freaks will be worth picking early on the grounds of BPA, but I'm not worried about chasing value at the position.  It'll be there for us at some point and we'll get a rotation player.

 

You kind of do have to chase OT.  I really don't think the class has many appealing options outside of the first round.  I could see a situation where like only one or two get picked in the second.  And the top OLs coming in don't look as good as the top WRs and DLs and DBs generally.  It's become a project position group.  A lot of variation in body type and playing styles at OL.

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This team has so many holes to fill with our high 1st round draft pick we need to trade down, get our 2nd round pick back plus other picks and our first pick is the BPA at LOT.

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6 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

There is going to be value at wr throughout the draft.  It'll be like last year.  But I have a feeling that the value of tackle and corner will fall off a cliff outside the top 40.

 

IMO the place to get value at tackle is the teens and at corner is the 20s and 30s and at receiver it will come 40-60 and at rb it will come 60-120.

 

We have good young talent at wr too.  We're in a spot where secondary traits like blocking and slot route running are desirable, and that comes cheaper.  We could certainly use a Ruggs or Jeudy or Lamb, but McLaurin has proven to be a future #1.

 

I wouldn't overstate the rarity of this class either.  Last year's class was like 20+ deep in quality too, and next year's will be stacked too.  Colleges are churning out NFL receivers right now because of the full establishment of the spread.  All of the blue chip programs have multiple NFL guys and even the third tier programs like Minnesota and Purdue and Wake Forest do.  The true freaks will be worth picking early on the grounds of BPA, but I'm not worried about chasing value at the position.  It'll be there for us at some point and we'll get a rotation player.

 

You kind of do have to chase OT.  I really don't think the class has many appealing options outside of the first round.  I could see a situation where like only one or two get picked in the second.  And the top OLs coming in don't look as good as the top WRs and DLs and DBs generally.  It's become a project position group.  A lot of variation in body type and playing styles at OL.

 

Like I said I don't mind chasing LT.  But FA is an option, too.  I am just not a fan of going into a draft boxed into drafting to need.   FA exist for corner, too.  The thing is if you go into the draft with a heavy multiple need shopping list, you are likely going to end up short.

 

Just 2 cases in point on the subject.  Years back when we had a major gap at DT, Scot said yeah he wanted one and knew they need a DT badly but the draft didn't fall that way.  The other example was Jay making it crystal clear in the off season TE was a major need.  yet, they didn't take one.  Hoffman later said they had their eyes on some specific guys but they weren't there when their pick was up.

 

I know every team is going up to come up short as for the draft meeting needs but that's my point.  Take a need or two off the table in FA.  With cap savings we can have like 40 million available potentially.  Why not sign a Bryon Jones or a Bulaga in Fa?   It's one thing if you are strapped against the cap.  But if we got guys like Norman, V. Davis, Reed, savings from Trent, etc coming off the cap, what's the point to sit on a lot of cap room?  

 

I guess if they are genuinely rebuilding and want to forward cap room, I am cool with it.  But they don't seem to roll that way.  

 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, RWJ said:

This team has so many holes to fill with our high 1st round draft pick we need to trade down, get our 2nd round pick back plus other picks and our first pick is the BPA at LOT.

 

 

I think we have a lot room for improvement at a lot places, but not glaring holes that you necessarily HAVE to use a no. 1 pick for.   LT is probably the only one, or possibly STUD TE.  That said, and Im going by some of the things ive heard on here, Christian has been playing much better... so if your guy isnt there at whatever pick we ultimately have, i dont think we need to panic and settle.  

 

Now i dont hate the idea of trading back and getting our 2nd round pick back, and possibly more.  

 

I guess i dont want to chase any position.  Were bringing in a new HC.  HOPEFULLY, and likely, a new GM...  we can upgrade just about everywhere.  Lets get the best stud there is.  It may be LT.  It may be WR, MLB, FS, i dont care.  I want difference makers.

Edited by OVCChairman

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1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Like I said I don't mind chasing LT.  But FA is an option, too.  I am just not a fan of going into a draft boxed into drafting to need.   FA exist for corner, too.  The thing is if you go into the draft with a heavy multiple need shopping list, you are likely going to end up short.

 

Just 2 cases in point on the subject.  Years back when we had a major gap at DT, Scot said yeah he wanted one and knew they need a DT badly but the draft didn't fall that way.  The other example was Jay making it crystal clear in the off season TE was a major need.  yet, they didn't take one.  Hoffman later said they had their eyes on some specific guys but they weren't there when their pick was up.

 

I know every team is going up to come up short as for the draft meeting needs but that's my point.  Take a need or two off the table in FA.  With cap savings we can have like 40 million available potentially.  Why not sign a Bryon Jones or a Bulaga in Fa?   It's one thing if you are strapped against the cap.  But if we got guys like Norman, V. Davis, Reed, savings from Trent, etc coming off the cap, what's the point to sit on a lot of cap room?  

 

I guess if they are genuinely rebuilding and want to forward cap room, I am cool with it.  But they don't seem to roll that way.  

 

I actually never want us to chase need in the draft.  I recognize that it routinely happens, sometimes egregiously so, but I am a BPA puritan.  I believe that, if you want to pass over BPA talent to draft a position, you need to trade down to do it so as not to destroy the value of your draft picks.

 

So if I'm sitting there at three through five and my choice is between Thomas or Simmons, I'm picking Simmons.  But a trade down is a great way to salvage value while targeting OLs or DBs.

 

I'm 100% with you on using free agency to address immediate holes.  That's what FA is for, imo.  The draft isn't good at putting out short term roster fires.  Rookies are rarely good enough to step in and play well day one.  For example. even a 22 year old Senior like Montez Sweat who is physically ready to play still needs quite a bit of work and time before he's truly filling a hole.  The draft is for finding foundation pieces.  So if we could sign someone like Bulaga, I'd be in favor of that.

 

The problem is they have to want to come here.  And even when you get them, you're usually only getting two-three good seasons from them.  And another problem is this FA class looks weak at OL.  There are a few interesting tackles, but the interior OL class looks pretty bad to me.  And if I'm honest, I'm not super comfortable doing something like making a 30 year old Bryan Bulaga the highest paid right tackle in the NFL.  I would do it and I would pay Scherff in order to fix the right side of the line.  But that's a bit of a scary contract.  And assuming Castonzo stays in Indy, Bulaga is really the only OT in the class that could justify a 13 million + contract for me, so if he doesn't want to come here, we'd be out of luck.

 

You're right that there is no competitive advantage in hoarding cap space in the NFL.  NFL deals are one year deals and eating dead cap for a season isn't damning for most teams.  But this year's team is a good example of what happens when you invest all of your money in players who can't play.  So some caution is warranted.  I can see a scenario playing out where we take Andrew Thomas in the first round, giving a pretty big contract to Bradley Robey/Logan Ryan/Chris Harris and then picking up a value pick at WR in the middle rounds. 

 

And honestly, that's not the worst way to play it.  It would be painful to see Ceedee Lamb and Isaiah Simmons making All Pro teams while maybe Andrew Thomas ends up being "just" a pro-bowler.  Let's put them on the PFF grade scale to where Lamb is like consistently scoring in the mid to upper 80s and Simmons has years where he even breaks 90 while Andrew Thomas consistently scores like a 78-80.  In a vacuum, we'd have made a terrible mistake.  But the team might actually be better as a whole if you get Thomas plus a low to mid 70's corner plus another receiver who is like a 70 something (possible in the mid rounds from this deep class) when the alternative is probably getting that stud overhang player/receiver and trotting out 50 or 60 graded tackles.  And this is because our best players on offense are McLaurin and Guice, both of whom would benefit quite a bit from good LT play.  And most of all, it helps Haskins develop.  Fostering his development is our biggest goal and maybe getting that 78-80 OT helps get the QB into 80s, which would make for major progress as a team.

 

I get the pull of not wanting to miss out on a ridiculously good first round WR group.  I also get the pull of wanting to be at the forefront of an NFL scheme/personnel development and having the hybrid player that becomes the prototype everyone else will be chasing in three or four years.  But if we take a step back, we'll see this is also a pretty rare offensive tackle group in the first round.  Very few classes have multiple players with the kind of athleticism that Wirfs and Thomas do.  Plus multiple other guys who offer high end starting potential available in the teens.  This class reminds me of 2010 in that way.  Trading down, getting an OT, and adding picks is a really great scenario for us to find a long term foundation piece while adding a ton of value to our picks.

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8 hours ago, RWJ said:

This team has so many holes to fill with our high 1st round draft pick we need to trade down, get our 2nd round pick back plus other picks and our first pick is the BPA at LOT.

 

Christmas wish list:

1.  Haskins shows enough potential that the Skins don't need to use a first round pick on another QB.

2.  Snyder fixes the front office and hires/promotes a true football operations guy.

3.  Some team that's not too far behind the Skins decides they need to trade up with the Skins to take a QB.  Skins use the additional draft picks to acquire players as good as the 2019 draft.

4,  Skins pick up a TE in free agency (not a star but one that can block and is a reasonable option in the passing game).

5.  I win the lottery even though I don't buy a ticket.

 

 

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29 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

And honestly, that's not the worst way to play it.  It would be painful to see Ceedee Lamb and Isaiah Simmons making All Pro teams while maybe Andrew Thomas ends up being "just" a pro-bowler.  Let's put them on the PFF grade scale to where Lamb is like consistently scoring in the mid to upper 80s and Simmons has years where he even breaks 90 while Andrew Thomas consistently scores like a 78-80.  In a vacuum, we'd have made a terrible mistake.  But the team might actually be better as a whole if you get Thomas plus a low to mid 70's corner plus another receiver who is like a 70 something (possible in the mid rounds from this deep class) when the alternative is probably getting that stud overhang player/receiver and trotting out 50 or 60 graded tackles.  And this is because our best players on offense are McLaurin and Guice, both of whom would benefit quite a bit from good LT play.  And most of all, it helps Haskins develop.  Fostering his development is our biggest goal and maybe getting that 78-80 OT helps get the QB into 80s, which would make for major progress as a team.

 

I get the pull of not wanting to miss out on a ridiculously good first round WR group.  I also get the pull of wanting to be at the forefront of an NFL scheme/personnel development and having the hybrid player that becomes the prototype everyone else will be chasing in three or four years.  But if we take a step back, we'll see this is also a pretty rare offensive tackle group in the first round.  Very few classes have multiple players with the kind of athleticism that Wirfs and Thomas do.  Plus multiple other guys who offer high end starting potential available in the teens.  This class reminds me of 2010 in that way.  Trading down, getting an OT, and adding picks is a really great scenario for us to find a long term foundation piece while adding a ton of value to our picks.

 

I agree with the gist of your point.    FA is looking much better for CB then it is LT. 

 

If I was a betting man, I think they do go CB in FA.  They have to do at least something with that money.  Probably TE, too.  They likely leave LT for the draft. 

 

As for Haskins, I like McLaurin and Harmon as much as anyone here.  I was arguably the biggest fan among people here of both on the draft thread -- I recall someone here also was a McLaurin person but its escaping me whom.   So yeah I believe in both.  But I'd love to add another to that mix.  And I do think it would help Haskins big time.  I think Haskins in particular would feed off of a good slot receiver.  Jeudy played some slot, ditto Ruggs.  I know you like J. Jefferson who is a slot guy.  Heck if if we go lower in the draft maybe Haskins' old teammate KJ Hill.

 

You take a LT with the first pick and then a Wr with the 2nd.  I am guessing we'd have a 2nd rounder either via Trent or a trade down.  

 

I am 100% with you on trading down.  To me its a no brainer arguably because we got multiple LTs and Wrs with similar range ability.  My only difference is I wouldn't trade down if they can get Chase Young.   I am cool with Simmons, too but also in a trade down.  

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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On 12/6/2019 at 1:05 PM, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

I think it's also telling that the Patriots have been fine with turnover at the LT position.  They let Solder and Brown walk.  I don't think they view that position as imperative as the others might.

 

Ravens are one of the contenders this year.  LT and RG for them, if they win I suppose.  Some other contenders I'm not sure who would be the best OL.  Chiefs?  Not sure.  49ers?  Also not sure, it probably would be Joe Staley but he's been hurt most of the year.  So maybe their Center, Weston Richburg?  Seahawks?  I'm not sure, I know some of their guys have improved, but how much?  Would it still be the 34 year old LT, Duane Brown?  Saints would probably be both LT and RT, with a runner up for their Center.  Packers would be the LT, but I've read Bakhtiari isn't his usual dominant self.

it's true the Pats don't view it as imperative, but a big part of that is Brady's release.  They had major issues this season at LT and even when Wynn came he was playing LT, when they would prefer to play him at guard.  

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4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Like I said I don't mind chasing LT.  But FA is an option, too.  I am just not a fan of going into a draft boxed into drafting to need.   FA exist for corner, too.  The thing is if you go into the draft with a heavy multiple need shopping list, you are likely going to end up short.

 

The thing about chasing a LT (and I'm not a fan of chasing either) is that normally the really good LTs don't hit FA and so you're either getting a Ty Nseke backup type player yo're trying to promote on a big contract because others see that same potential, or a Flowers type who's failed at his first team but you say that maybe with better coaching he can do better.

 

I'm reading this thread about the different players, and its been very active on Saturdays, but based on what I'm reading about Christian, and there are still questions about Penn. I know he said this would be his last season, but that wasn't anything delcarative, just something thrown into an interview. Plus he's a guy who was an UDFA and came in and started as a rookie and has played consistently well for what like 15 years? So if we like what we've been getting from those two guys it may make it easier to trade down and not force the pick. 

 

Now we can contrast that with another thing that's DEFINITELY a need - TE. And I'd say that this is a position we can almost surely find somebody more competent in FA. Add to that there have been a lot of high draft pick TEs who didn't pan out, particularly compared to a Mark Andrews type player in the third. Contrast that with OJ Howard, Ebron or Njoku who all have been pretty disappointing so far. 

 

We talked about Derwin James a few years back and if we don't have the GLARING holes that need to be addressed, I'd be looking for that type of player in the first - somebody that lifts an entire unit.

 - Jeudy/Lamb is just OK to me but I don't see WR as the need it was last year. We've got three young guys developing there and I'd be interested in bringing somebody in maybe later in the draft but not this early. 

 - Okudah/Diggs are intriguing because CB is another position that doesn't hit FA too often. He's a shut down corner (per scouting reports I've read). Again, is this a need vs other positions and if Moreau can continue to show himself as a playmaker like he has the past 2 weeks, I'd be less interested in taking a CB this high

 - Kenneth Murray is interesting as an ILB but I'd be interested in how good he is as a complete LB and at making plays. We have Holcomb, Foster, SDH and watshisname. I've been looking for a playmaker here but is that Murray (or any first round ILB?)

 - McKinney is another Alabama FS/SS who intrigues me but their defense hasn't been good this year. Delpit is another option here but I'm not sure who's better. I look at what Fitzpatrick did for Pittsburgh's defense and say I want that. 

 

The other thing about the tackles - Thomas/Jackson/Wirfs/etc is what type of tackle do we want? I remember back in 2010 the reports were all about Okung and we drafted Williams and I hadn't researched Williams because most mocks and scouting reports had Okung > Williams, so when we took Williams I was surprised and maybe disappointed knowing we didn't draft well. But lo and behold Williams was the better pick. 

 

I'd add that there is always the surprise. I can think of a few in the last few years: 

 - in mocks, EVERYBODY said that there was NO WAY that Leonard Williams would drop to us in 2016 (he was also supposed to be a sure fire pick and he wasn't). 

 - in mocks, EVERYBODY had Guice going in the first and he stayed til the late second

 - in mocks, Harmon was a second rounder in most, but lasted until the 6th

 - in mocks, Settle was a second/third rounder and he lasted til the 5th. 

 - And I know they picked Sequan Barkley but how does NY look picking him over Darnold and Allen now? I think most mocks had the Giants picking one of these QBs (the other going first to the Browns). 

 

And that last point brings me to something else. The impact of a QB. If we look at PFR's player grades Barkley has a 14 and Darnold has a 7 and Allen has a 6 Baker has a 10. But the Giants are 2-10, the Bills are 9-3, the Jets are 4-8, and the Browns are 5-7. The last two don't count as turnarounds but I'd much rather have a non superstar QB who leads me to 9-3 than a superstar RB who keeps me at 2-10. So while I want the Chase Young type superstar, I'd much rather continue to build a complete team that can make it to the playoffs and win some games in January. 

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The Redskins have a clear and present need at the Tight End position. No other position is as pressing IMO. As a matter of fact, they need two.

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5 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

The thing about chasing a LT (and I'm not a fan of chasing either) is that normally the really good LTs don't hit FA and so you're either getting a Ty Nseke backup type player yo're trying to promote on a big contract because others see that same potential, or a Flowers type who's failed at his first team but you say that maybe with better coaching he can do better.

 

 

That's often true, not always.  But I agree with the gist of the point which is your best shot to get a LT is typically in the draft.

 

5 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

I'm reading this thread about the different players, and its been very active on Saturdays, but based on what I'm reading about Christian, and there are still questions about Penn. I know he said this would be his last season, but that wasn't anything delcarative, just something thrown into an interview. Plus he's a guy who was an UDFA and came in and started as a rookie and has played consistently well for what like 15 years? So if we like what we've been getting from those two guys it may make it easier to trade down and not force the pick. 

 

 

Don't have a good feel for either point but agree its a wild card that could change things.

 

5 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

We talked about Derwin James a few years back and if we don't have the GLARING holes that need to be addressed, I'd be looking for that type of player in the first - somebody that lifts an entire unit.

 -

 

I've been a fan of that style of player for years, only dude IMO worth a high pick who plays like that is Simmons.

 

5 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

T

 - Jeudy/Lamb is just OK to me but I don't see WR as the need it was last year. We've got three young guys developing there and I'd be interested in bringing somebody in maybe later in the draft but not this early. 

 

 

 

Couldn't disagree more about this. And this coming from arguably the biggest cheerleader for both McLaurin and Harmon here.  I think one killer receiver in that mix can really make this receiving corp special.  I think Lamb and Jeudy > Harmon.  I've liked Harmon pre-draft and wanted him.  But I don't see him as a super star. I think he's really good though.   Jeudy and Lamb IMO are potential super stars.  And again I am not a need driven guy -- I want killer players, period.

 

5 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

 - Okudah/Diggs are intriguing because CB is another position that doesn't hit FA too often. He's a shut down corner (per scouting reports I've read). Again, is this a need vs other positions and if Moreau can continue to show himself as a playmaker like he has the past 2 weeks, I'd be less interested in taking a CB this high

 

 

I like both players.  Actually CB often is a decent FA position.  I read somewhere Dallas doesn't plan to tag/sign B. Jones. And there are other fish in the sea, too. 

 

5 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

 - McKinney is another Alabama FS/SS who intrigues me but their defense hasn't been good this year. Delpit is another option here but I'm not sure who's better. I look at what Fitzpatrick did for Pittsburgh's defense and say I want that. 

 

   I don't think either is Fitzpatrick but I haven't dived deep into either one so I reserve my chance to change my mind on that.

 

5 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

The other thing about the tackles - Thomas/Jackson/Wirfs/etc is what type of tackle do we want? I remember back in 2010 the reports were all about Okung and we drafted Williams and I hadn't researched Williams because most mocks and scouting reports had Okung > Williams, so when we took Williams I was surprised and maybe disappointed knowing we didn't draft well. But lo and behold Williams was the better pick. 

 

Yeah I recall that but it was close between Trent and Okung.  Trent played mostly RT at Oklahoma and was billed as the athletic freak of the two, can get to the 2nd level with great speed for a dude his size.   I haven't really studied Wirfs yet but he's described as an athletic type and probably more so than Thomas.  I like Thomas though he doesn't look to me on par with Trent.  Wills might be the best run blocker among the tackles.  You got some depth in this draft with Jackson, Leatherwood, Cosmi,  Great draft to trade down IMO,

 

5 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

I'd add that there is always the surprise. I can think of a few in the last few years: 

 - in mocks, EVERYBODY said that there was NO WAY that Leonard Williams would drop to us in 2016 (he was also supposed to be a sure fire pick and he wasn't). 

 - in mocks, EVERYBODY had Guice going in the first and he stayed til the late second

 - in mocks, Harmon was a second rounder in most, but lasted until the 6th

 - in mocks, Settle was a second/third rounder and he lasted til the 5th. 

 - And I know they picked Sequan Barkley but how does NY look picking him over Darnold and Allen now? I think most mocks had the Giants picking one of these QBs (the other going first to the Browns). 

 

Sure mocks aren't gospel.  Those are just draft geeks making their own assessments and hoping to match scouts-personnel guys albeit sometimes they say their mocks are partly driven by leaks from personnel people though that can be manipulated on purpose for obvious reasons. 

 

The mocks tends to get close to accurate closer to the draft.  By the time the draft got close for example, Guice was in the 2nd round in plenty of mocks. Though typically early 2nd.  Barkely to NY was hot based on scuttlebutt really for months before the draft.   Harmon was all over the mocks but yeah typically 2nd-4th round.  I'd say 3rd was the most common if memory serves.   Settle, that's true.   Leonard Williams ditto but I recall some rumors as the draft approached he might drop based on future injury concerns and rumors about him not loving football. 

 

But yeah I do agree with your overall point. I made the same point to you last week ironically in a different context which is that mocks aren't gospel at all.

 

5 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

And that last point brings me to something else. The impact of a QB. If we look at PFR's player grades Barkley has a 14 and Darnold has a 7 and Allen has a 6 Baker has a 10. But the Giants are 2-10, the Bills are 9-3, the Jets are 4-8, and the Browns are 5-7. The last two don't count as turnarounds but I'd much rather have a non superstar QB who leads me to 9-3 than a superstar RB who keeps me at 2-10. So while I want the Chase Young type superstar, I'd much rather continue to build a complete team that can make it to the playoffs and win some games in January. 

 

I get the point.  But your logic doesn't apply to the point at hand.  Yes QB > RB.  And yes Pass Rusher > RB, too.   The fact that QB > RB has nothing to do with an apples to apples relating to a killer pass rusher.  If you want to win a lot of games.  QB. Pass Rusher.  LT.  Shutdown corner.  Help a lot.  

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What do OT's look like from the 8-15 spot if we trade down-

figure Thomas would be gone- but what about Wrirf? there is supposed to be someone good from alabama too.  Could we then pick up TE with a traded to 2nd rounder or our 3rd?

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I am not excited at all by the OTs in this draft. There is no Pro Bowl potential LT type unfortunately. 

 

If we do move on from Trent, I think the best option would be to bring back Penn for one more year. I would also take a couple tackles in this draft (incl an athletic type who could be a LT) like we took a couple guards and let them push Christian for the starting job at RT next year (meaning I'm saying let Moses go).

 

 

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After the first two picks there seems to be a significant drop off of impact players.  Even in previous drafts you had players Lamar Jackson, Derwin James, or DK Metcalf that had superstar potential outside the top ten but in this draft your not going to see any of these type of players. 

 

If the Redskins are not picking #2 I would honestly trade down or try to trade that pick for Tomlin.  To me Chase Young is the only player would be hype for.  Andre Thomas seems ok but doesn't seem all that great to be top five.  If you had the choice of securing a coach that could change your franchise vs. any of the projected 2020 first rounders who would choose?  I would choose the coach 

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4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Couldn't disagree more about this. And this coming from arguably the biggest cheerleader for both McLaurin and Harmon here.  I think one killer receiver in that mix can really make this receiving corp special.  I think Lamb and Jeudy > Harmon.  I've liked Harmon pre-draft and wanted him.  But I don't see him as a super star. I think he's really good though.   Jeudy and Lamb IMO are potential super stars.  And again I am not a need driven guy -- I want killer players, period.

 

Honestly I think I'm too into the moment to be understanding of the Lamb or Jeudy > Harmon just yet. I'm impressed by what I'm seeing from Harmon but I can also see holes in his game that could have caused him to drop. Same with Sims. Honestly, same with McLaurin. I think I'm trying not to be too dismissive of our current roster and say we need help everywhere, but I have to admit that there is really no position where we're set. Maybe DL, but that raises the question of the option with Allen. 

 

But the area where I feel like we need the most improvement is OL - LT, LG, C is good, maybe RG, and RT. I doubt we do it all in one offseason but that depends on how aggressive we are. I could see nobody added, or all 5 positions addressed. But those aren't playmaking positions. I could honestly say the same about a shutdown corner. I'd love to have one of those and it was at the top of my list when we were playing Norman. I do like Moreau but I don't want to pass on a good CB in the first (assuming we don't get Young) for him. That said, CBs who shut their WRs down don't get their name called often and thus don't make the plays. 

 

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I have corner as a big need.  I’m a fan of Dunbar, I’m impressed with Moreland and Moreau has done some good things, but 1) we need depth, 2) receivers are still getting wide open at times and 3) I’m far from sold on Moreau (or Moreland).  
 

Regarding Oline, we’re in such strange territory.  I have not been big on Christian’s play, not a fan of Moses, and lord knows if we’ll be able to re-sign either guard or if Penn sticks around.  So it’s Roullier and 4 question marks.  Plus total unknowns in Martin and Piersbacher.  We almost have to re-sign at least one of the guards. 
 

Need a plus receiving TE.  Badly. Could use another back.  I’m intrigued by Orchard, but we could use an OLB.  Would love a stud FS and ILB, but I think we can get by alright.  
 

I like the idea of Harmon in the slot with a talented draftee opposite McLaurin.  I’m ok with the group we have though (I think both Sims’ will be improved next year) if the draft breaks otherwise for us.  Don’t get me wrong, it would be a shame to miss out in a deep receiver draft, but... I can live with it.  
 

Longer term, considering we may have a new coach (and DC), new scheme and (god willing) a new GM, I’d be happy to trade for future picks - whether through trading back or trading Trent - and rolling cap space over.  Let the new regime see what they have, coach guys up, see who fits and then go shopping next year.  

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8 hours ago, hogdirty said:

After the first two picks there seems to be a significant drop off of impact players.  Even in previous drafts you had players Lamar Jackson, Derwin James, or DK Metcalf that had superstar potential outside the top ten but in this draft your not going to see any of these type of players. 

 

If the Redskins are not picking #2 I would honestly trade down or try to trade that pick for Tomlin.  To me Chase Young is the only player would be hype for.  Andre Thomas seems ok but doesn't seem all that great to be top five.  If you had the choice of securing a coach that could change your franchise vs. any of the projected 2020 first rounders who would choose?  I would choose the coach 

I'm not trading a possible high pick for a damn coach!  That's just ridiculous!

 

Hail Em Up!

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9 hours ago, hogdirty said:

If the Redskins are not picking #2 I would honestly trade down or try to trade that pick for Tomlin.  To me Chase Young is the only player would be hype for.  Andre Thomas seems ok but doesn't seem all that great to be top five.  If you had the choice of securing a coach that could change your franchise vs. any of the projected 2020 first rounders who would choose?  I would choose the coach 

 

Trading draft picks for coaches is probably the worst way to use them.

 

There are a lot of talented coaches out there.  Find one who actually wants to be here, and who you don't have to hollow out the roster by spending a precious team building resource to get.

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